How so?Pratyush wrote:Relax, all is well.
The dragon huffs and puffs
The lizard pokes and prods
We behave like the lotus eaters!!
How so?Pratyush wrote:Relax, all is well.
Seems very optimistic and based on pure conjecture and assumption (that they met their production targets and additional lines were 100% replicas of the original capacity etc)fanne wrote:Here is food for thought. No idea if correct, but if it were it changes many things!!
https://defenceupdate.in/chinese-believ ... -true/amp/
Butter vs bullets is a long established issue in democracies and given the unprecedented costs of the China virus the GoI is managing things as well as they can on the domestic front- it still really irks me that China unleashed that on the world and the damage it’s done to indiaRakesh wrote:....
This is the kind of opposition that the Govt is up against. See this video below...KSingh wrote:Butter vs bullets is a long established issue in democracies and given the unprecedented costs of the China virus the GoI is managing things as well as they can on the domestic front- it still really irks me that China unleashed that on the world and the damage it’s done to indiaRakesh wrote:....
However the GoI is playing with fire and they know it. Underfunding defence can have electoral consequences- if PLA get more adventurous during summer 2023 and there’s significant losses for india (men and land) that the GoI cannot hide/spin away.
Hoping the Chinese have other things to think about is hardly a proactive strategy
Sorry Ramana-ji, I just saw this. Please delete my post above if you wish. My apologies.ramana wrote:Folks why are we mixing politics into military thread?
Lets accept that we have bunch of extreme patriots who wont be happy till NaMo reveals secrets to them and even then they will not believe as they suffer from Sialkot syndrome.
So first time I will start ignoring.
So once again this is the Artillery thread.
http://swarajyamag.com/amp/story/news-b ... akes-shapeks_sachin wrote:A very depressing thread!!!
All that is good. But if we keep chasing imported mall we will get f….d one way or the other. And we can forget being a serious power on the world stage.Pratyush wrote:Bringing focus to arty procurement programs.
Let's list the known procurement programs.
1) 1580, 52 calibre towed howitzers.
2) 155, 39 calibre ULH towed howitzers. final numbers unknown.
3) 814, MGS, in 52 calibre.
4) unknown numbers of 39 calibre MGS for mountain roles.
5) Dhanush 45 , in 450 numbers.
6) 100+(100?) K9, in addition to the ones already in service.
7 Sharang, 300 guns as of 2020.
If these programs are completed by 2040 we are going to be in a good place. As far as arty is concerned.
So during peace these tunnels will Store missils?ramana wrote:http://swarajyamag.com/amp/story/news-b ... akes-shapeks_sachin wrote:A very depressing thread!!!
Of India has no rocket forces why build these tunnels?
Things are not bad as folls want to paint.
PLA also has "tunnels". Recall that the Brahmos were re-designed to hit the reverse side of a hill/mountain, just for that purpose: hit the entrance to the tunnel, which the PLA thought by placing on the reverse side was difficult for India to hit.Pratyush wrote:So during peace these tunnels will Store missils?ramana wrote:
http://swarajyamag.com/amp/story/news-b ... akes-shape
Of India has no rocket forces why build these tunnels?
Things are not bad as folls want to paint.
The PRC shoots a cruise missile in the tunnel at the beginning of hostility and our missiles are toast.
Such articles are designed to raise moral but the tunnels during the beginning of hostilities are just another target for the enemy.
A cruise missile will cost under 2 million dollars. Over the next 2 decades PRC can easily procure 2000 cruise missiles per year. Our few hundred tunnels become unusable in the first few days of the fight.
ramana wrote:I hope you wear trousers.
Don't wear dhoti ever.
I am young enough to easily live for the next 60 years. I hope so do you. So that in the late 40s. Once the PRC has reached its final form. We can sing all is well.ramana wrote:I hope you wear trousers.
Don't wear dhoti ever.
Rakesh wrote:ramana wrote:I hope you wear trousers.
Don't wear dhoti ever.
look at terrain, Myanmar is basically river plains with soft soil, then Himalayan rise 20km (on average) from Indo Myanmar border this terrain is mountainous thick forest and something flowing every 1.8 to 2 kms, forcing any mass movement to stick to prebuilt road bridge system, WW2 Japs+INA came upto Kohima Japs built a good road network the network has been upgraded over the years, there is a Cheen built and operated High speed Rail (HSR) parallel to Indo Myanmar border 30km (once again on average from border) there are 12 airstrips 80km to 128km from Indo Myanmar border operated by PLA point isPratyush wrote:Map of Burma and North eastern India with a focus on the perennial river systems.
https://www.google.com/search?q=irrawad ... pDkrFCRocM
National highway system of Burma. Superimposed on the periannial river systems.
https://www.google.com/search?q=myanmar ... E77EhGs6jM
Ask yourself what is the end game of PRC in North eastern India. That they will have to cross into Burma in order to successfully achieve the desired outcome.
If it's Arunachal Pradesh, they can't do it from Burma. As long as the IAF exists. If IAF is gone. No amount of 155 is going to help. In the face of PLAF air superiority.
Tibet route has very narrow operational window plus PLA is on open flat terrain(remember not a blade of grass grows there) opem flat terrain deployment need least amount of guided ammunition traditional method will be more than enough Maynmar route relying on IAF is fatal as fatal as 1 paxi=10 bhindians arty to shut off ingress route IAF to protect the skies and visit places out of range(there are 2 PLA operatiomal radar station)Pratyush wrote:Niran,
I have been looking at Burma along the different east to west and north to west transit corridors for several years.
This is harder for the PRC to manage then an assault from Tibet. Which is exactly why I had linked to Burma maps.
Not matter how much the road network has been built up. If the IAF is alive and breathing . An offensive from PRC through Burma is non starter.
I regard the PLA and PLAF to be reasonably competent to understand this basic fact.
If the IAF is dead, it will not really matter, of the PLA comes from north or even east. The Arty and missile holdings will not really make much difference to the outcome of the fight.
Niran says tomatoes are round reddish KS Sachin says Tomatoes are reddish and roundks_sachin wrote:Niran I have been up to the plateau in Tibet. There is no way the Chinese can surprise us there. We already had armr there in the late 1990s. How effective it was is a question to be asked. But dad commanded the brigade there and also his paltan was deployed in the Demchok area before Bde Command. Again there a lot of work done even before the issues over the last few years in terms of defences.
The IA know the lay of the land very well and has over the years built up defences so that the Chinese cannot willy-nilly do things. Once you own the choke points in the mountains, then you have the upper hand. And also remember all of this is based on what the POLITICAL leadership allows before someone starts talking about things that have happened and why we are reactive..
As much as we like to do armchair giri the IA is not all filled with fools!
look at terrain, Myanmar is basically river plains with soft soil, then Himalayan rise 20km (on average) from Indo Myanmar border this terrain is mountainous thick forest and something flowing every 1.8 to 2 kms, forcing any mass movement to stick to prebuilt road bridge system, WW2 Japs+INA came upto Kohima Japs built a good road network the network has been upgraded over the years, there is a Cheen built and operated High speed Rail (HSR) parallel to Indo Myanmar border 30km (once again on average from border) there are 12 airstrips 80km to 128km from Indo Myanmar border operated by PLA point is
1. all ingress (into Bharat) route identified (down to sinle person footbridge and watched over 24/7
2. every route upto that HSR line is in 155mm arty range
3. all airstrips are under rocket and missile range
so in the event of PLA even farting in Myanmar 155s plus Rockets and Missiles will shut off all ingress route blow up supply routes and cache a wise commander can even trap few division of PLA to die of hunger malaria dengue snake bite scorpion stings etc etc.
rest please join the dots yourself
Looking at the army RFI for towing Vehicles and the tamaha around the 15 ton limit. It makes sense to just buy the K-9 Vajra upgraded models which can fire rocket assisted projectiles for greater range. The platform seems to have almost no negative publicity. There is no towing vehicle needed. It makes sense to meet the ATAGS requirement through K-9. ATAGS or ATHOS cannot be airlifted by Chinook. So the mobility aspect is the same. Am I missing any operational requirements?India is registering its presence on the border with a lot of might. Apart from religious tourism, the Indian government reopened the 150-year-old Gartang Gali Bridge in 2021. Thirdly, the air force is being given land in Chamoli, Pithoragarh, and Uttar Kashi to install defense radars, and advanced landing grounds are being developed, and the K-9 Vajra Howitzer is being deployed.
Tracked SPGs are expensive. Their primary role is as a support element for an armoured thrust. Using truck mounted MGS would be a much better and cheaper option.BenG wrote:
Looking at the army RFI for towing Vehicles and the tamaha around the 15 ton limit. It makes sense to just buy the K-9 Vajra upgraded models which can fire rocket assisted projectiles for greater range. The platform seems to have almost no negative publicity. There is no towing vehicle needed. It makes sense to meet the ATAGS requirement through K-9. ATAGS or ATHOS cannot be airlifted by Chinook. So the mobility aspect is the same. Am I missing any operational requirements?
Thanks. I did not consider the cost angle of tracked vehicles.mody wrote:Tracked SPGs are expensive. Their primary role is as a support element for an armoured thrust. Using truck mounted MGS would be a much better and cheaper option.BenG wrote:
Looking at the army RFI for towing Vehicles and the tamaha around the 15 ton limit.... Am I missing any operational requirements?
IA has projected a requirement for more than 850 MGS. I think a mix of Kalyani light 4x4 truck mounted guns and heavy 8x8 truck mounted ATAGS will fill the role. I don't think the OFB Dhanush MGS on a Tatra truck will get inducted.
Yes, Nice Gyan. I wish to see towed Bharat 52 orders if they come under 15 tons. But at this time they are still under development it seems. So a bridging order of Kalyani 39 caliber ULH will help in the mean time. The same has been ordered by Armenia. So it makes sense to capitalize on it.Gyan wrote:Is it possible that Army RFI is an attempt to give orders to Bharat 52 instead to of ATHOS? 1% chance?
That is not correct based on the Chindu article I had quoted a few pages back. To quote from it:BenG wrote:Dhanush 45 is not in serial production. The first regiment is still not fully equipped with the gun. Why would Army trust new Dhanush 52 to be on-time and be devoid of production faults? If necessary, they should just scrap the 45 caliber requirement altogether. IA should standardize around 39 and 52 caliber.
Please see this linkOne regiment of the indigenous Dhanush artillery systems, developed based on the Swedish Bofors guns, has been inducted and operationalised in high altitude area along the Northern Borders after extensive validation. By March 2023, the Army should receive 18 guns to form the second Dhanush regiment, the source said.
This list could’ve been written in 2006 and it would not look much different. Only 145 M777, 100 K9 and ~30 Dhanush-45 have been inducted from the list and all post 2014 so the arty corps of the IA is barely that different in 2022 than they were during Kargil as far as ORBAT goes.Pratyush wrote:Bringing focus to arty procurement programs.
Let's list the known procurement programs.
1) 1580, 52 calibre towed howitzers.
2) 155, 39 calibre ULH towed howitzers. final numbers unknown.
3) 814, MGS, in 52 calibre.
4) unknown numbers of 39 calibre MGS for mountain roles.
5) Dhanush 45 , in 450 numbers.
6) 100+(100?) K9, in addition to the ones already in service.
7 Sharang, 300 guns as of 2020.
If these programs are completed by 2040 we are going to be in a good place. As far as arty is concerned.