Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy

[Guddu]

Normally, I too dont listen to long videos, but this one is quite fascinating. As a bonus even Ajit Dobhal spend 30 min or so listening to it.

[NRao]

FYI. Expecting 500,000 to be mobilized. He is expecting the borders to be closed.

[MeshaVishwas]

Very good lecture by Gen Bakshi.
This got me thinking about the nature of Deterrence.Why did Roos with the massive military spending and supposed assymetry fail put the fear of death into the Ukr/NATO politicians(if what the Gen is saying is a fact, i.e, Ukr+owner Nato goaded bear into attack or be attacked mode)
Some more Q's
1. Did NATO already have a fair measure of the supposed rot inside Roos military and decided that the rice is ready for harvest?
2. Was Roos complacent to believe that NATO escaping with tail b/w legs from Afg meant now #1 enemy was.... #2 economy China and not #15 or #20 Petro Oligarch Roos?
3. The Force mobilized by Roos against the second biggest nation in EU was a Paki Op Gibraltar.....hope the "oppressed" Ukr mangoes join forces to resist the Nazis or whatever. How did they make this miscalculation?
4. Ukr GBADS which was a remnant of the old SU system, meant to utterly confuse, frustrate and ultimately wear out the superior NATO air force DEAD operation.What was the RuFAF plan to demolish this?
If no foolproof tactics existed then why not wait for advantageous weapons to aid develop such things?
Were the RuFAF so weak kneed that they could not come up with a comprehensive S/D EAD war plan?
5. The RuFNavy has not been able to give a single beach landing till date even with all the Ropuchas assembled for action, how exactly can they dial up an offense considering there is no AFU Navy in existence?

[bala]

I watched the video by GD Bakshi, who I have great respect. Some points I took away.

The capture of Kiev was very crucial, which the Russians initially took the Kiev airport but did not follow through to secure the rest and the city. In fact, they withdrew later. Having the capital under control would put Ukraine in a weak position. Putin probably did not think through this option. In fact he wanted very little casualities for civilians. Russia's force deployment for the conflict was underestimated since Putin thought the Ukrainians would fold once Russia put boots on the ground. There has been snafus in intelligence on this count and weak military leadership.

Russia holds the most economically rich areas of Ukraine like Lugansk, Donetsk, etc. Artillery has worked well for the Russians and their supersonic missiles too (though an expensive option). BTW India's ATAGs were praised by GD and also Atmanirbhar of all equipment is the takeaway for India. Drones have changed the battlefront which is an important lesson for India. Tanks and other machinery used were okay. The lesson is robust supplies and rugged reliability count a lot compared to the jee whiz features touted by western systems. On the air front the Ukrainian airforce is non existent. The Russians are using limited sorties. Total SEAD ops like how the US prebombed Iraq with heavy SEAD is not being done by the Russians. This is weak area for Russians. However having air defence systems like the S400/S500 is effective.

GD Bakshi talked about the info war and psych ops which he claims the west won. However, I slightly disagree. How many times are the west going to cry wolf without the rest realizing the sheer hubris. I know 1/2 of the US does not believe in news reports churned by NYT/WaPo/CNN/ABC/NBC etc, half the armed forces don't believe it, like Scott Ritter, etc. I would say the West actually lost the info war.

On casualty front both sides are reporting false numbers. The loss of aircrafts/tanks/etc is also wrong. Apparently there is hard satellite evidence of many of these losses. The book has more details.

The lessons for India are many. A robust supply of weapons is crucial - artillery, tanks, missiles - to conduct long wars (which are not nuclear!). Good intelligence on the enemy is important. Gaming of scenarios is required. Weather conditions play a role (e.g. 1971 war in non-monsoon period). A large well trained well supplied army is a huge must. India had 2.5 million army during WW2 for the Brits. Air defence is key, SEAD too. Drones are a big part of modern warfare. Decisive leadership is very important, you have to commit to some Himsa to achieve overall Ahimsa (a teaching in BhagavadGita).

Many International systems like payments, finance, membership in world councils, etc are fungible concepts controlled by the West. The quicker India is independent of these systems the better.

[ks_sachin]

So basically, nothing especially illuminating and really quite superficial. The state of the Russian armed forces should have not been a surprise to the good General. A bit of research would have provided that information.

And Bala ji, regardless of what you say regarding the Psy Ops / Info War and your view that the West has lost that - your sample size may be pretty small. There are two aspects to this yes -

1) The justness of the war --- Russia has lost this completely. Even if western societies by and large may want the war to end - its not because of any agreement with the Russian position.
2) The need to continue with the war vis-a-vis the cost of all western countries and their citizen - you tell me if aid or promises of aid are actually stopping? Even if the aid will take longer where is the backlash to the energy issues say in the UK. IF you say this is going to happen shortly - much like the winter offensive has now changed to a potential summer offensive by the Russians - let's wait for this to happen.

On the contrary, the narrative is spectacular that the Russians have f....d up this SMO and that is a result of an inept military, combined with a dictator who has expansionist tendencies but really does not know what has been happening under his reign. It does not matter what Scott Ritter and other experts think. The average joe on the street is who matters and even if one-half of the US things otherwise the other half thinks that Ukraine is winning this.

The media is too powerful and extremely well-managed in the West. Russia simply does not have the finesse to manage this well enough. Western armies and governments have media management as a core force multiplier.

The lesson is robust supplies and rugged reliability count a lot compared to the jee whiz features touted by western systems.

- You are also conflating three things here things. Supplies, reliability and weapons features are three separate metrics - stack them up individually and then lets see where we are.

[NRao]

Time is not on Ukraine’s side

Washington Post.
By Condoleezza Rice and Robert M. Gates
January 7, 2023 at 7:00 a.m. EST

Both of us have dealt with Putin on a number of occasions, and we are convinced he believes time is on his side: that he can wear down the Ukrainians and that U.S. and European unity and support for Ukraine will eventually erode and fracture. To be sure, the Russian economy and people will suffer as the war continues, but Russians have endured far worse.

Meanwhile, although Ukraine’s response to the invasion has been heroic and its military has performed brilliantly, the country’s economy is in a shambles, millions of its people have fled, its infrastructure is being destroyed, and much of its mineral wealth, industrial capacity and considerable agricultural land are under Russian control. Ukraine’s military capability and economy are now dependent almost entirely on lifelines from the West — primarily, the United States. Absent another major Ukrainian breakthrough and success against Russian forces, Western pressures on Ukraine to negotiate a cease-fire will grow as months of military stalemate pass. Under current circumstances, any negotiated cease-fire would leave Russian forces in a strong position to resume their invasion whenever they are ready. That is unacceptable.

The only way to avoid such a scenario is for the United States and its allies to urgently provide Ukraine with a dramatic increase in military supplies and capability — sufficient to deter a renewed Russian offensive and to enable Ukraine to push back Russian forces in the east and south. Congress has provided enough money to pay for such reinforcement; what is needed now are decisions by the United States and its allies to provide the Ukrainians the additional military equipment they need — above all, mobile armor. The U.S. agreement Thursday to provide Bradley Fighting Vehicles is commendable, if overdue. Because there are serious logistical challenges associated with sending American Abrams heavy tanks, Germany and other allies should fill this need. NATO members also should provide the Ukrainians with longer-range missiles, advanced drones, significant ammunition stocks (including artillery shells), more reconnaissance and surveillance capability, and other equipment. These capabilities are needed in weeks, not months.

[ks_sachin]

Thanks NRao,

The last para reinforces my point that the west thinks this is winnable, and the psy ops and comms have been won by the West.

I am not saying that they are right but the dominant narrative is what is touted by Western governments!!

[NRao]

@bala,

With all due respect to everyone, it was a PR show for the release of a book, which was probably written months ago and has dated material. However, I would have started a book with multipolarity. And, from a multipolarity PoV **today** there are no two nations closer on that topic than India and Russia.

Besides, as I have mentioned multiple times, this is a full-spectrum conflict/war. One cannot afford to arrive at conclusions based on what Russia has done on the battlefield *alone*. Russia, while engaging the West militarily, has decided to break with the West in non-military areas and has already started acting accordingly. So, while we may argue about the military status in Ukraine, there is no doubt that the West has got its behind handed to them as far as the economy goes - a cornerstone of their 8+-year-old plan. While I do not think there is an anti-West camp (yet?), clearly the relations that existed pre-Feb 24, 2022, do not exist today, and dare I say they will never return to those days (oil cap being an example - even Japan a G-7 member does not adhere to it!!)

The Rice/gates Opinion in WashPost is demanding that the West raise the stakes. How will the rest of the world react is TBD. But, at some point in time react they must. This war will impact every nation is one way or another and will shape the world post-2030.

[NRao]

Thanks NRao,

The last para reinforces my point that the west thinks this is winnable, and the psy ops and comms have been won by the West.

I am not saying that they are right but the dominant narrative is what is touted by Western governments!!

That is an Opinion of two Neocons. What did you expect them to say? Their lot has not changed for 100+ years.

On the "dominant narrative", I think the Global South has yet to open its mouth. If the "West" sends more arms they will be impacted even worse than what is happening today. Will they accept the narrative and do nothing or in their own ways rise - TBD.

A few nations that cannot afford to keep silent are China, India, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia.

BTW, unconfirmed, but, I have come across two reports that India, Japan, and Australia have started collaborating (without the US) on intel and other security issues. ??????

[bala]

You are also conflating three things here things. Supplies, reliability and weapons features are three separate metrics - stack them up individually and then lets see where we are.

With a name like sachin (Tendulkar) you are famous!
BTW I sit on very large company's architecture committee with voting approval/disapproval rights. Reliability is deemed as an NFR (non-functional requirement) and I have seen a lot of jee-whiz features which are pretty useless. Elon Musk of Tesla/SpaceX fame slashes requirements for each project down to the top 10 or 15 atmost the rest are mercilessly removed.

Talking about supplies, the west is in dire shape as far as long wars are concerned. France/UK/Germany yes even the US does not have supplies to sustain.

You seem to be very critical of Russia (Aussie influence?) but they are champs when it comes to supplies, reliability and artillery. They can grind you out and have the will to win. The current Army of UK/France/Germany/US/Nato is not up to the mark and they can't take casualities (public distaste precludes mass deployment in unjustified causes). Scott Ritter and McGregor both have a very dim view of existing army capabilities to fight grinding wars.

[ks_sachin]

Bala ji,

I am older than Sachin T so can only surmise that he copied my name . However, I prefer Dravid as a batter and as an individual.

I have a dim view of the Russian armed forces - although I would like the side that benefits India to win. I can be critical of Russia but still want it to win - I see no contradiction in that stand. My thinking has been borne out by how the RU Army has performed on the battlefield. Being in Australia has nothing to do with it - I find that thinking to be offensive to say the least.

Sure they can grind out a win but at what cost? And the current grind is because of what - Russia cannot impose itself despite all that arty etc. I am talking about today so let's see. True lessons of the war also to include what Russia did wrong because India should not repeat the same mistakes. There are a lot of learnings there and unfortunately, all the talks end up in drones / arty / etc at a very high level.

The condition that holds for NATO / UK etc, also holds true for Russia. If the Russian population turns against this war, what then? IF you way that is never going to happen then we can't have this discussion as you are making an assertion that you cannot justify.

With regards to useless weapons features - can you please give me some examples?
In the area I work we have a lot of way in what gets treated as a Functional Vs NFRs by Architecture Review boards (sometimes the law trumps what the technologists want to do) but this is not a place for this and I will defer to your knowledge on this.

[ks_sachin]

NRao,

We can only go by the here and now. When the Global South decides to open its mouth then we shall see. Till such time the narrative is what the west is putting out. That is the reality. The rest is all - could have / should have / will do etc.

I hope what you are saying is true vis-a-vis security and intel collaboration. But for me Australia is another UK / US in terms of foreign policy. If the UK is big poodle, Aus is little poodle. But lets see.

We need a unipolar world with India as that Pole!!!

[Cyrano]

Saw the Gen Bakshi video.

The irony of starting with the colossal intelligence failure of Russians with NSA Dobhal sitting in the front row! Hope that's not why he left midway!!

Gen Bakshi is great, but his enthusiasm gets the better of his perspective sometimes.

The other 2 retired officers who spoke Air Marshal Chopra and Maj Gen Sharma also make good points.

No one has a crystal ball!
Most importantly Americans and Europeans who don't understand India's position must be shown this video so that they get a new perspective.

[Tanaji]

The other aspect is what constitutes a proper military campaign and a “win”. From the time of Dessert storm 1 and its associated CNN visuals, we have been conditioned to shock and awe campaigns where the (western) military releases stand off weapons and clinically destroys targets. The viewer on the couch expects a war to be conducted where they can see tv visuals of a missiles camera entering a window and exploding. While this reduces casualties for you, it requires massive costs and infra on your side. Most importantly, beyond the initial shock and destruction it does nothing against a technologically inferior enemy that is prepared to wage an insurgency.

Russia doesnt wage wars that way. It will and does regard its soldiers as less valuable, but it will inflict the same cost on the enemy. Just because they are not releasing those cool visuals doesnt mean Ukranian infra is not getting reduced to rubble. It is, just that it takes longer. An artillery barrage takes longer and requires you to be closer (with the resultant risks) but it reduces the target to rubble the same. The Russians will grind you out… they still control 20% of prime Ukraine and its Ukrainians that are imitating Pakis not the Russians.

The West have absolutely won the perception war: notice the absolute dominance of Ukranian pov and clips of them blowing Russian stuff up. But who has “won”? What is “winning”?

[Parasu]

"The West has won the perception war" speaks more about each person's individual experience and thoughts.
For many of us who are following the war on telegram and not on western social media platforms or MSM, the Russians are doing quite well.

In fact, they have been doing well since the Euromaidan Couvolution, through the battles of Ilovaisk, Debaltseve, Minsk deals and now.

The Russians, at the very top (read Putin), have acknowledged the wide gap between perceptions in the West and the global south and repeatedly spoke on the colonising nature of western elites and buttressed their pro-global-south credentials.

[ks_sachin]

Does not matter Parasu.

As long as the Western public is fed a narrative and laps it up….

Telegram et all readers are a minority…

And Telegram is completely objective?

[sanjaykumar]

Russia has been careful not to level Kiev. There was never any intention to occupy it.

Russian forces objective was to sequester Ukrainian assets to defend Kiev and ipso facto away from eastern Ukraine while the Russians occupied it. That bit of Ukraine is gone. Even if somehow they retake it, 20 years of insurgency will exhaust Ukraine.

This war started out very polite. The columns that moved south to Ukraine were very disciplined. They even obeyed traffic regulations from what I can see. Of course it turned out to be savage. But Kiev still is standing. It is important to note that the power keeps being knocked out but the central water heating plants are left functioning. It may be a sign that things can get even nastier if the Russians choose. Further food distribution systems seem to be intact. Hospitals and schools seem to be functioning.

I think the Russians are giving them an option- settle now or settle later, like indo-China, Vietnam or Afghanistan. But with colossal damage if not devastation.

[ks_sachin]

Indeed it has been a textbook campaign by the Russians.
The Ukrainians or should I say the west will see the writing on the wall shortly and come to the negotiation table.

[Pratyush]

Indeed it has been a textbook campaign by the Russians.
The Ukrainians or should I say the west will see the writing on the wall shortly and come to the negotiation table.

I don't know if this has been a text book example of Russian way of war.

But i do understand that that this war will have only one outcome.

Either complete capitulation of the Russian state.

Or complete capitulation of the west in Ukraine.

When and how either will happen. Only time will tell.

[ks_sachin]

Pratyush,

How very Humphry Appleby of you!!

[Aditya_V]

KS Sachin is being sarcastic seeing the posts here clearly Putin made a huge mistake thinking the Ukrainians would negotiate just seeing a Russian show of force. But they are willing to take a lot of destruction and pain.

They hope that the West will develop them post the conflict. Bosnia also made the same mistake, today many Bosnians say trusting the West was a mistake.

Ukraine has been sacrificed, we don't know actual losses on the internet, material capacity, resources being used up. This is an attrition war. Till one side conclusively loses it will continue.

The Russians have realized the Ukrainians are well dug in, so an assault this winter would be too costly for them.

[Pratyush]

Pratyush,

How very Humphry Appleby of you!!

If I had a crystal ball I would have told you exactly when either will happen.

Since I don't. This is the best you will get.

[NRao]

"The West has won the perception war" speaks more about each person's individual experience and thoughts.
For many of us who are following the war on telegram and not on western social media platforms or MSM, the Russians are doing quite well.

In fact, they have been doing well since the Euromaidan Couvolution, through the battles of Ilovaisk, Debaltseve, Minsk deals and now.

The Russians, at the very top (read Putin), have acknowledged the wide gap between perceptions in the West and the global south and repeatedly spoke on the colonising nature of western elites and buttressed their pro-global-south credentials.

Could not agree more, except for the falling for the deviant intent of the West in the TWO Minsk agreements (since the Euromaidan).

[NRao]

................. clearly Putin made a huge mistake thinking the Ukrainians would negotiate just seeing a Russian show of force. ............................

For the record in March/April of 2022, Ukraine did negotiate and came to an agreement in Istanbul!!!!!! Yes, it did happen.

But, history has a way to rewrite itself and enter common folklore.

Putin was right and it is there for the record. But, we the people have a short memory.






Boris the Great of England torpedoed the deal. And, here we are discussing ....................................

[Aditya_V]

Well he should have been more prepared then he should have figured Ukrainian miltary and leaders will sacrifice everything in Ukraine. As the West will never support them doing a ceasefire with the Russians.

[NRao]

For the record, as part of the "here and now" and Strategy:

* Brazil's Lula, who was supported by the Biden White House, has decided to throw Brazilian weight behind BRICS (China/Russia). Thus pivoting away - openly - away from the US (while the Brazilian ex-president is safe in Miami).

* Israel has declined US initiatives to send Israeli arms to Ukraine. The story is that Israel, under Netanyahu, would prefer the good offices of Russia to patch up and strengthen Israeli ties with Arabic nations. Iran, ........................

* And what do we have? Japan Set to Import First Crude Shipment From Russia Since May

* Imports to resume as government pushes for energy security
* Oil imports from Sakhalin needed to maintain LNG output: Japan

Ouch. A G-7 member openly disregarding the oil cap based on national interests

A textbook full spectral war by Russia.

[NRao]

Well he should have been more prepared then he should have figured Ukrainian miltary and leaders will sacrifice everything in Ukraine. As the West will never support them doing a ceasefire with the Russians.

Again!

Putin has been prepared. As I have stated multiple times, this is a full spectral war. Why are you looking at brigades and KIA, etc? Taking into account gold reserves, alt currencies, political alliances, distancing from the West by building parallel systems, Russia is working to patch diff between India/China and for the past two years between Iran/SA, mediating between Syria and Turkey (after Turkey had shot down a Russian aircraft!!!!) to push the US out of the region, etc.

It has been going on since at least 2014. And, you do not even mention any of that?

What I can give you is Putin could have been better prepared. But, he is far better prepared than anyone in the West.

[ks_sachin]

Why are you looking at brigades and KIA, etc?

Because I started this thread to understand Russian & Ukr combat tactics and battle craft - especially as the IA has also embarked on a transformation program.

Putin may be the grand master of strategy, but his hand could have been a lot stronger if the pool of professional career soldiers was broader or if corruption in the armed forces was less than what it is or if the organisational structure of the Russian armed forces was better or if combined ops philosophies had evolved beyond the Soviet times - etc etc etc

[Cyrano]

This is becoming a "If only Putin had...." whine thread like some dehati saas would say to her bahu in an 80's DD serial "agar mere bete ne tujh jaisi kalmuyi ke saath shaadi na kiya hota...."

[Cyrano]

Though I'd never want such a thing to happen, if NATO forces got directly involved in Ukraine with a couple of hundred thousand troops drawn from US and EU countries, would they sidestep all the mistakes being attributed to Putin and Russia? Will they suffer no tactical or bigger losses and failures of equipment, men, formations, logistics and leadership on the battlefield and off of it?

I hope we never find out bcoz my take is that they will come out far far poorer than the Russians have do far. For a bunch of reasons I won't go into here.

Let's observe what's going on and offer an analysis or opinion but this whining "Kaash aisa hota, vaisa hota" is quite jarring IMO.

[Aditya_V]

My point here, lets not pretend the Russians has not done any mistakes, they clearly have, I still think they messed up by attacking on 24 Feb 22. I agree the Russians had difficult choices to make, Ukraine was anyway being armed and prepped for attaching them. We all agree the Russians are in this position cause they fell for Western propaganda in the 1980-90s and thought the world is ruled by Elites who generally gentle and nice, they broke up the Soviet Union without any written agreement on NATO expansion, today the through inducements and allure Former Soviet republics and Poland etc are in the charge for driving daggers into Russia.

The reason many of us want a Russian victory is we know of the West wins here, the next revolution will be done in India, Western resources will pour into Pakistan, BIF ecosystem , DMK, Khalistanis, Hurriyats etc... and serious attempt at Breaking India will be done.

[JE Menon]

>>BTW, unconfirmed, but, I have come across two reports that India, Japan, and Australia have started collaborating (without the US) on intel and other security issues. ??????

Could you identify the reports? I am highly skeptical about the (without the US) part. Maybe physically. Australia shares EVERYTHING with the US, including its territory. There were (may be still are) US bases in the Australian outback where Australian employees & military had to sing the Star Spangled Banner along with the US soldiers. Every morning! The Harold Holt Naval Communication Station was one of them...

[Cyrano]

The only ones who don't make apparent mistakes are those who sit on the sidelines. At some point even that can become a mistake.

[Parasu]

Does not matter Parasu.

As long as the Western public is fed a narrative and laps it up….

Telegram et all readers are a minority…

And Telegram is completely objective?

The point is/was that Russia (Russian leadership) is now focusing on building relationships in regions where its narrative is more acceptable. For example, in Africa.
Both Burkina Faso and Mali have asked French ambassador to leave, after asking western militaries to leave. They have sought help from Russia and Wagnerites have landed there.

Russia is now counting on the global South and the East.

Secondly, the MSM western media has lost a lot of credibility. Some due to internal infighting, a lot due to internet/social media. As a result, people have started doubting the western narrative. This is more pronounced in the global South although the public in the West itself is also divided.

Thirdly, Telegram is not objective. In fact, no platform is. But it is still better than western platforms and MSM because there is significant Russian (and Ukrainian) presence there.

[Manish_P]

The only ones who don't make apparent mistakes are those who sit on the sidelines. At some point even that can become a mistake.

Profound words these...

[Cyrano]

Russia could anticipate some of the west's moves, some it couldn't. Their response was inadequate in some cases, and even nonexistent in others. In some cases there was nothing Russia could do.

While we can consider the initial Kiev encirclement strategy as a failure, many European nations were taken by surprise when Russia actually attacked.

Russians almost succeed when negotiations happened in Turkey last march but couldn't prevent UK and US from pulling Kiev regime back.

The swiftness of sanctions packages was well anticipated by Russia but they could not do anything about reserves and asset freeze.

They mostly mitigated impact on the rouble and their economy and switched to eastern markets but couldn't prevent Nordstream destruction and lost any possibility of regaining European market.

But the biggest difficulties for Russia are in media management and preventing or at least curtailing NATO military aid to Ukraine.

The media problem is mostly wrt western sphere, the RoW actually saw through the western propaganda and didn't buy the "unprovoked agression" and "illegal war" narratives no matter how insistently they were repeated.

The west has filtered out Russian version of events from most of their MSM, and has been grossly amplifying Ukrainian "victories" but has no option but to go silent on why so much more arms supplies are needed again and again, and why Ukrainians can't push back Russia.

Overall for Russia it's a mixed bag, and it has been pushed to adopt more and more destructive tactics in Ukraine and climb several rungs on the escalation ladder. For them, this has become an existential war.

Did they get suckered into starting this war ? Of course yes. But is that a failure of Russia? Hard to say. The alternative was to see Russophone people in Donbass decimated, Ukraine joining NATO and it's security seriously compromised. So sooner or later they had to act.

The west has miscalculated lots of things as well. And this war is not existential for them but they are now trapped in the sunk cost fallacy, and the narrative they have pushed for months is now staring them in the face.

If you abstract the specifics, how is this see saw unfolding of events different from most other wars in history?

[IndraD]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64219979

Soledor salt city has been captured by Russian forces, UK MI says

ussia is "likely" to finally control most of the salt-mining town of Soledar in Ukraine's east after a months-long battle with Ukrainian forces, the UK's Ministry of Defence says.

Russian troops and the mercenary Wagner Group have made advances in the past four days, the UK says.

Soledar is near Bakhmut, where Ukraine is also locked in a bloody battle.

President Zelensky said there was "almost no life" in Soledar, with "no whole walls left".

He also said "the whole land near Soledar is covered with the corpses of the occupiers".

"This is what madness looks like," he added.

Soledar - which had a population of around 10,000 before the war - may be seen mainly as a stepping stone to capturing Bakhmut, and its strategic value is questionable.

But a US official said last week that Yevgeny Prigozhin, the Wagner Group's founder, wants control of the large salt and gypsum mines in the area.

The UK said part of the fighting had focused on entrances to the 200km-long disused tunnels and that both Russia and Ukraine "are likely concerned that they could be used for infiltration behind their lines".

Mr Prigozhin has confirmed his interest in the mines, calling them "the icing on the cake" in the strategic importance of the Bakhmut area.

He described them as a "network of underground cities" that can hold "a big group of people at a depth of 80-100 metres", and can also allow tanks and other military vehicles to move freely.

[IndraD]

lot of whine from UK re Soldedor..whats in it for Ukr or Ru? Any input Brigadier Deans saar?

[IndraD]

Putin’s army seizes most of Ukraine town of Soledar as it fights for 200km disused salt mine tunnels - UK https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/russ ... 51901.html

Russia’s Soledar axis is highly likely an effort to envelop Bakhmut from the north, and to disrupt Ukrainian lines of communication.”

The briefing added: “Part of the fighting has focused on entrances to the 200km-long (124 miles) disused salt mine tunnels which run underneath the district. Both sides are likely concerned that they could be used for infiltration behind their lines.

“Despite the increased pressure on Bakhmut, Russia is unlikely to envelop the town imminently because Ukrainian forces maintain stable defensive lines in depth and control over supply routes.”

Officials in Kyiv said Russia had stepped up a powerful assault on Soledar in eastern Ukraine, forcing Ukrainian troops to fight waves of attacks led by the Wagner contract militia around the salt mining town and nearby fronts.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in nightly video remarks on Monday that Bakhmut and Soledar were holding on despite widespread destruction.

He cited new and fiercer attacks in Soledar, where he said no walls have been left standing and the land is covered with Russian corpses.

“Thanks to the resilience of our soldiers in Soledar, we have won for Ukraine additional time and additional strength,” Mr Zelensky said. He did not spell out what he meant by gaining time or strength.

Russia’s defence ministry did not mention either Soledar or Bakhmut in a regular media briefing on Monday, a day after facing criticism for an apparently false claim of a missile strike on a temporary Ukrainian barracks.

Wagner was founded by Yevgeny Prigozhin, an ally of Putin.

Drawing some recruits from Russia’s prisons and known for uncompromising violence, it is active in conflicts in Africa and has taken a prominent role in Russia’s war effort in Ukraine.

Prigozhin has been trying to capture Bakhmut and Soledar for months at the cost of many lives on both sides. He said on Saturday its significance lay in a network of cavernous mining tunnels below the ground, which can hold big groups of people as well as tanks and other war machines.

Ukrainian military analyst Oleh Zhdanov said fighting in Bahkmut and Soledar is “the most intense on the entire frontline”, with little advancement by either side in the freezing conditions.

“So many (pro-Russian fighters) remain on the battlefield ... either dead or wounded,” he said on YouTube.

“They attack our positions in waves, but the wounded as a rule die where they lie, either from exposure as it is very cold or from blood loss. No one is coming to help them or to collect the dead from the battlefield.”

[Arima]

News of TSP planning to send huge consignment of 155mm shells to UKrn in return for Gasturbine engines for Ships and Tanks.
more or less Ukrn will cease to be builder army by the end of war with capability destroyed.