Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[mody]

@mody,

So, what is the US offering?

She is offering what India wanted in the DTTI negotiations: which is the co-development of an engine - with the GE F414-400 (98kn) as the baseline.

Per wiki (not my fav source for anything):

General Electric's enhanced performance engine (EPE), increasing the F414-GE-400's power output from 22,000 to 26,400 lbf (98 to 117 kN) of thrust per engine, was suggested as a mitigating measure

So, there was a GE F-414 called -400 with 98kn and it was enhanced to 117kn and called "EPE".

India wanted to participate in this "enhancement" - be part of the development team to see what it takes to develop a 98kn engine to 117kn.

So, what the US/GE are offering is to take the -400 engine, with 98kn, as the baseline and "co-develop" an engine to 110kn (not 117kn that the current EPE has) for the AMCA - which is what India wanted in the negotiations under DTTI. India was then and even now seeking a 110kn engine - and that is what ALL these yahoo companies are offering.

This GE offer IMHO is a bad deal. (So are the others too - TBH)

BTW, the GE F414 INS6 was developed specifically for India.

A decent deal would be to take the EPE (@117 kn) and co-develop a 120+kn engine (say 135kn).


________________________________

WRT Safran and RR - hey, IF Indian funds do not come those two companies could sink into oblivion. India revived Sukhoi and IMO even Dassault with purchases of their aircraft - so, I think they will part with some techs that GE will never. But, GE has the newer techs that neither RR nor Safran have.

GE gets more than adequately funded, so she this is not about funds for GE, it is more about US trying to control Indian techs

@NRao, The EPE design is ready with GE. They had lobbied the USN to fund the development for future upgrades to the F/A-18. But USN was not willing at the time. Now, they have offered this to India. Keep in mind that the EPE enhancement will probably mean the end of the development potential of the baseline F414 design. Most probably, it cannot be developed further within the same physical dimensions.

We will not get all the technologies. Some of the key core components will continue to come from the US. The rest of the engine will be manufactured in India, which will probably belike close to 90%. GE itself might manufacture the same, along with an Indian partner. India will most likely get export license for the engine and might get the rights to develop or make further changes to the engine, like maybe adding thrust vectoring etc.
All this would most probably cost much lower than what RR or Safran are offering and the timeline will also be much more predictable and shorter.
It would be possible to upgrade the engines on the Tejas MK2 to this standard in the future, and given that the timelines would be shorter, it might even be possible to have the engine ready by the time the TEDBF and AMCA Mk-1 production is to start. We might be able to make some changes to the engine and use the same for other projects if required, like say a UCAV project, without the afterburner section etc.
If GE were to offer the technology for the entire engine or even make the complete engine in India, then this would be fairly good offer.

The Safran M88 core based engine also can be further developed to produce a thrust of about 110-115KN for the dimensions that match our requirement. Further development might be difficult. That would most likely be the end of the development potential of the engine. Plus the M88 itself is a smaller engine, so to match the physical dimensions of the F414, it would mean a completely new engine, with the M88 core technology as the base. The timeline will be longer, the price Safran is asking for, is quite a lot and the new engine would require more testing than the offering from GE. In this case, I don't know who would own the IP, but re-export would almost certainly be possible. As the engine would be specially developed for our requirement, it might mean joint IP, but not sure if it would cover the M88 core as well or not.

The RR design has the maximum upside possible and by most indications, would have the potential for further development. The costs and timeline will be more as compared to GE and would mean that for TEDBF, Tejas MK2 and AMCA MK1, we would most likely have to use the GE F414-INS6 engines only.

[srin]

Regarding Kaveri, I don't believe there is much chance it'll ever power any variant of Tejas.

The reason is very simple - you shouldn't use a single engine fighter for engine testing. An engine failure can result in a crash and with it (esp given the foreign lobbies), it'll be curtains on Tejas. There are other issues - Kaveri will need to be better than F404/414s (or we come under US sanctions) for the services to accept a new engine (without a great track record of reliability).

So, for some avatar of Kaveri to be mounted on a fighter (even for testing), we'll need to wait for a twin engine fighter - either TEDBF or ORCA or maybe AMCA. Or we figure out how to use Mig-29 or Rafale (unlikely that OEMs will agree).

Kaveri has been doomed since day 1. It was doomed when LCA was required to be a single engine fighter. No amount of funding eg for flying testbeds (though the lack of proper test infra is inexplicable) would make it ready to fly in Tejas.

[BenG]

Regarding Kaveri, I don't believe there is much chance it'll ever power any variant of Tejas.

Or we figure out how to use Mig-29 or Rafale (unlikely that OEMs will agree).

Kaveri has been doomed since day 1. It was doomed when LCA was required to be a single engine fighter. No amount of funding eg for flying testbeds (though the lack of proper test infra is inexplicable) would make it ready to fly in Tejas.

The problem mentioned exists. But we have to work around it. Dassault as part of MMRCA offsets had promised to mount one Kaveri engine on Rafale, test and certify it. So OEM would be willing when we order another 36 Rafale.

For the time being, Kaveri dry version can be used to power UAVs then an afterburner can be added in mk2 version. Once the production technology matures and reliability is assured, it can be used on Tejas mk1. The real problem of reliability is due to production technology not being able to churn out components with good precision. So getting Kaveri dry version to production will be the most important but first step.

[pravula]

Regarding Kaveri, I don't believe there is much chance it'll ever power any variant of Tejas.

The reason is very simple - you shouldn't use a single engine fighter for engine testing. An engine failure can result in a crash and with it (esp given the foreign lobbies), it'll be curtains on Tejas. There are other issues - Kaveri will need to be better than F404/414s (or we come under US sanctions) for the services to accept a new engine (without a great track record of reliability).

So, for some avatar of Kaveri to be mounted on a fighter (even for testing), we'll need to wait for a twin engine fighter - either TEDBF or ORCA or maybe AMCA. Or we figure out how to use Mig-29 or Rafale (unlikely that OEMs will agree).

Kaveri has been doomed since day 1. It was doomed when LCA was required to be a single engine fighter. No amount of funding eg for flying testbeds (though the lack of proper test infra is inexplicable) would make it ready to fly in Tejas.

We don't need foreign lobbies...

[maitya]

Ah, got some b/w today, so couldn't resist posting ...

@mody,

So, what is the US offering?

She is offering what India wanted in the DTTI negotiations: which is the co-development of an engine - with the GE F414-400 (98kn) as the baseline.

Per wiki (not my fav source for anything):

So, there was a GE F-414 called -400 with 98kn and it was enhanced to 117kn and called "EPE".

India wanted to participate in this "enhancement" - be part of the development team to see what it takes to develop a 98kn engine to 117kn.

So, what the US/GE are offering is to take the -400 engine, with 98kn, as the baseline and "co-develop" an engine to 110kn (not 117kn that the current EPE has) for the AMCA - which is what India wanted in the negotiations under DTTI. India was then and even now seeking a 110kn engine - and that is what ALL these yahoo companies are offering.
<snip>

A decent deal would be to take the EPE (@117 kn) and co-develop a 120+kn engine (say 135kn).
<snip>

@NRao, The EPE design is ready with GE. They had lobbied the USN to fund the development for future upgrades to the F/A-18. But USN was not willing at the time. Now, they have offered this to India. Keep in mind that the EPE enhancement will probably mean the end of the development potential of the baseline F414 design. Most probably, it cannot be developed further within the same physical dimensions.
<snip>

So, @NRao and @mody, what is US offering now, and how will it have any value-add wrt indigenous turbofan dev initiatives?

Pls note EPE is very-close to absolute cutting edge wrt turbofan tech - may not be the uber F119-class (in terms of tech and not thrust etc) but close enough.
1) Getting HPT blade/disk/vane tech is what makes it worthwhile
It's reported with EPE design, GE had reached the tech-ceiling of convection cooling (of the blades) via laser-drilled cooling holes alongside the single-layer TBC tech.
(Note: We have indigenouly mastered nano-structured-bilayer TBC tech (LZ-YSZ topcoat on a bond-coat, pls refe to my other/earlier posts on this topic), but not yet application-proved on rotors - only on static elements in A/B etc)
Also refer to this image.

2) The Combustor and HPC are also a minm gen ahead of F404, but those were reported to have already mastered indigenously (but not flight-proven).

3) I'm not sure if the LPT is plain-vanilla SC-blade on std-disk ... or are they CMC rotor-tech-class. If later, then this is something worth getting
Ditto for the later/last stage of the HPC (std SC-blade-on disk or CMC rotor tech).

4) Lastly the often forgotten the LPC or Fan ...
GE has developed unidirectional-fabric-woven tech (as opposed to twill-weave ones) for Carbon-Fiber composites based LPC Fan blades, along-with Titanium leading edge tech, for their GEnX turbofans (Civilian). If GE has ported them to EPE, then again this is as cutting edge as it gets.

etc etc

So all this non-sense about DTTI/co-development/ToT-manufacturing etc alpha-soups, has very little value, unless the above mentioned aspects are thoroughly understood wrt tech-sharing perspectives vis-a-vis our indigenous turbofan tech design/dev initiatives.

Betw if we are to do a screwdriver-giri, what's wrong in funding the EPE developmet and in the process get whatever preciously-little hand-me-down tech-transfer given to us, the Kallurams, and be happy with it - IAF/MoD would want precisely that isn't it, and the Govt can't care lesser anyway.

[Prasad]

maitya,
GE tested out LPT blades made of CMCs in 2015. It was part of their advent program I believe. What technology will we get transferred? SiC fibres, resins, production tech?

We're currently working on making sic/sic shrouds, fibres for bling etc. The LZ/YSZ combination I believe is also being tested out on the combustor/liner. I'm assuming we also have a program for a CMC combustor liner given that we've used nozzle flaps made of CMCs.

Without a domestic source for the (composite) raw materials, how will it be your own engine? GE's tot for the F414-IN-whatever that will fly on the Mk2, TEDBF etc is just an assembly plant with most of the higher tech components arriving in crates to be put together in blr/hyd. How will we make hundreds of the 110kN engine to fly on these same aircraft without having to procure material from the US. And we are not talking about today or 2030s but far into 2040s and 50s for sustainment of these aircraft. Where will we be in terms of world politics and will we need to give other countries such a vital lever.

These are questions we need answers to but all we unfortunately get are boiler plate announcements and stonewalling.

[maitya]

As they say, when Cat is away the mouse will play ... with SHQ not in for better part of the day, there's this luxury of typing out 2 BR posts in a day

Have meant to type this out for many years now, finally got a chance ... please read it, if you have to, at your leisure onlee.
So, here goes nothing:

maitya,
GE tested out LPT blades made of CMCs in 2015. It was part of their advent program I believe. What technology will we get transferred? SiC fibres, resins, production tech?

We're currently working on making sic/sic shrouds, fibres for bling etc. The LZ/YSZ combination I believe is also being tested out on the combustor/liner. I'm assuming we also have a program for a CMC combustor liner given that we've used nozzle flaps made of CMCs.

Without a domestic source for the (composite) raw materials, how will it be your own engine?
<snip>

IIRC, raw Carbon Fibres used to be imported from Japan, but there are much more to it, then just the CFC raw material etc ...

There are two aspects of Carbon Fibre Composites usage wrt Turbofan ... mostly, and as far as I know, limited to LPC/Fan only.
The main aim, ofcourse is to reduce the overall turbofan engine weight (pls note HPC is most heavy component* of the turbofan as such) without compromising it's primary functional parameters i.e. to act as the initial compressor and protect the rest of the complex turbo-machinery from FoD e.g. from birds etc.

But Why CFC?
Apart from obvious weight saving (CFCs are about 2.5 times less dense than Titanium, most commonly used in HPC/Fans, so less mass/weight for same Vol etc), there are some significant advantages as well.
Carbon fibres can be moulded (with epoxy etc) into nearly any shape, those that can’t be achieved with metals without welding (that introduces weak-points wrt fatigue creek initiation/propagation etc) several pieces together etc.

Before we proceed, a word of FoD impact as well - there are two aspects, one is plain vanilla debris ingestion and then also containment of the any impact due to debris ingestion and keep it localised to the Fan itself.

So trying out CFC in HPC/Fan has been there from the 70s, but success in actual deployment took so many years due to limitations of manufacturing tech of the composites.
However CFC can be two types wrt their strength directionability i.e. you can either have twill-weave or a unidirectional layup (both held together with a small amount of hot-melt type glue). And, as you have may have guessed it, both have their uses.

The conventional twill-weave (criss-cross weaving from lay man pov) is used in use-cases where omni-directional strength is required e.g. in say automotive industry, LCA Wings/Rudder etc applications.
Similarly, it's used extensively, in the HPC/Fan shrouds - the fan case,and the case ring it encloses, of a turbo fan engine (is the single heaviest component of the LPC/Fan), is the one which prevents any blade fragments (from FoD ingestion etc) from being ingested into the engine core itself. Here a multi-directional CFC based case/ring can be used.

But if we have specific use-case of one-directional strength, e.g. in Fan blades, then you'll require manufacturing technology to be orient the fabric-layers in very specific directions into CFC plies and then glue these plies together.
The orientation geometry of each layer/plies is a function of centrifugal, aerodynamic forces plus impact forces (due to FoD) plsu of course some leeway from practical manufacturing tech pov etc etc.
So you may have, say 45deg-90deg-45deg-0deg oriented layers/plies (or some other exotic permutations), to form the base CFC material to construct the HPC blades.
Do note, each layer/plies here is a unidirectional, but different, and very selective directionally strengthened, layers were glued-up to form the CFC based LPC/Fan blade material.

Apart from the very difficult manufacturing process of each of these steps, which orientation and in which combination etc is learned from years of experience and experimentation (plus of course an unlimited/unhindered budget to essentially fail and try again spanning decades) to come up with a deployable LPC.

One of the technologies developed specifically for this is called 3D woven RTM (Resin Transfer Moulding) for carbon fibre composites. Some others are CNC controlled contour tape laying/ fibre placement with high deposition rates technology, RTM/Resin infusion and e-beam curing, Automated Dry Material Placement (ADMP) etc etc etc.
[Relax, pls don't despair too much with these bombastic sounding tech and machinery, many/quite a few have already been successfully indigenised, and some even at an industrial (albeit MSME level) scale etc]

With all these, GE with their GenX series of engines claimed ~175Kg of weight savings** from LPC/Fan alone.

Expecting GE or anybody, to just handover to us or anybody, just like that due to some baboon-giri by either side, is well ...

----------------------
Note:
*Btw this is more pronounced for the civilian turbofan massive HPC/Fans due to their very high BPR - for military turbofans and leaky turbofans like F404/Kaveri etc it's much more moderate (again due to lower BPR) - civilian and military turbofans have different design philosophies and use-cases to solve.
** Weight savings would thus be lower for skinny LPC/Fan of the military turbofans like in F404/Kaveri


Now back to lurk mode

[NRao]

Ah, got some b/w today, so couldn't resist posting ...

So, @NRao and @mody, what is US offering now, and how will it have any value-add wrt indigenous turbofan dev initiatives?

Hope you get a lot more b/w.

My reference point is the article in Business World: Second Thought. I will let you all read it. Here is my take:

A) What is NOT on the table/offered to India:

* The GE-414 EPE engine
* Production/Co-production of any engine beyond the GE-414 INS6 (meant for the LCA II and the AMCA test articles)

B ) What is on the table/offered to India (based on that one article):

* Let me quote the LM VP of Asia: “All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced.

From my recollection and the article: "General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter."

So, in short, the "offer" is for an engine that does not exist, and when "developed" (NOT produced), it will be at 110 kN (as opposed to 116 kN for the EPE).

Furthermore, AFTER the 110 kN engine is developed ALL IP will be shared - FOR THE NEWLY DESIGNED ENGINE. So, there is no question about GE transferring anything - everything will belong to India.







**However**, co-development, does NOT mean/include **production**. SO, GTRE may have a 110 kN top-of-the-line engine know-how and not know how to produce/manufacture it.

[NRao]

I seriously think India should delink the AMCA (and any other aircraft) from AN engine. I very much doubt, even with GE/RR/Safran help India will get a reliable engine of 110 kN by the time the AMCA is ready. With that in mind, I would seriously suggest that the AMCA use the GE-414 EPE, with the 116 kN thrust, and drop their fetish for a 110 kN engine. Just buy the EPE off the shelf and use it from day one.

On GTRE dreaming of an engine - none will come for at least 15 years. I think the funds are there - there is no will like that for ISRO/nuclear stuff. And, I cannot see an aircraft after the AMCA. So, my thinking is what is the hurry in getting an Indian engine at this point in time - that window has closed IMO.

[V_Raman]

+1 to that. Get the EPE engine and get going on AMCA. Getting a domestic engine along with AMCA - then we will get AMCA only in 2100 !

[V_Raman]

if india is in a position where all fighters are domestic but for the engine in the next 2 decades - that is a great position to be in. work in parallel to get an engine without coupling it with the fighter development

[Rakesh]

Read this twitter thread on how turbine blades are formed. Truly an engineering marvel.

https://twitter.com/Jordan_W_Taylor/sta ... Or58yyozNA ---> 1/This is a thread about metallurgy's secret cheat code, and how it's used by the aerospace industry to accomplish things that no material should. In particular, how that cheat code is enabled on the humble, but amazing, jet engine turbine blade.

[Rakesh]

Made-in-India GE jet engines sought in closer US security ties
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 505765.cms
01 Feb 2023

[maitya]

Made-in-India GE jet engines sought in closer US security ties
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 505765.cms
01 Feb 2023

Here we go again ... the tamasha never stops, I guess.
If the mai-baap allows us to put only the "Made in India" sticker on the 414, it'll be hailed as a great success ... and if by any chance the shrouds and casings etc are allowed to be manufactured from raw-materials , then it'll ofcourse be a stupendous success.
And if LPC gets manufactured here, and may even the HPC Blades/disc and Vanes are assembled (and not manufactured), that's like strategic shift/jointness paradigm, right - surely there'll be some immediate quid-pro-quo in terms of an offensive platform-sales attached to it.
etc etc

And we will have to endure another set of tough tongue-twister acronyms for years on now ...

Whatever happened to all those bombastic "offset-clauses" put on various platform purchases earlier - nothing, as nothing was supposed to come out of it anyway - these offset tamasha is just that, a tamasha to keep continue to keep us "feeling important" (wrt splurging on further dev of foreign MIC), for the mango-folks like us.

[chetak]

I seriously think India should delink the AMCA (and any other aircraft) from AN engine. I very much doubt, even with GE/RR/Safran help India will get a reliable engine of 110 kN by the time the AMCA is ready. With that in mind, I would seriously suggest that the AMCA use the GE-414 EPE, with the 116 kN thrust, and drop their fetish for a 110 kN engine. Just buy the EPE off the shelf and use it from day one.

On GTRE dreaming of an engine - none will come for at least 15 years. I think the funds are there - there is no will like that for ISRO/nuclear stuff. And, I cannot see an aircraft after the AMCA. So, my thinking is what is the hurry in getting an Indian engine at this point in time - that window has closed IMO.

with these sort of time lines, funding will be very difficult to come by, especially given the lacklustre performance that they had showed in the past....

Even the gora's are able to easily see that there in no zing in the GTRE's current tech line up or even in the lack lustre bench strength, besides 15 years is too far away to see or forecast events with any amount of certainty, so the age old institutional pandora's box will continue to remain open and exposing the demons within

[chetak]

Made-in-India GE jet engines sought in closer US security ties
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 505765.cms
01 Feb 2023

Here we go again ... the tamasha never stops, I guess.
If the mai-baap allows us to put only the "Made in India" sticker on the 414, it'll be hailed as a great success ... and if by any chance the shrouds and casings etc are allowed to be manufactured from raw-materials , then it'll ofcourse be a stupendous success.
And if LPC gets manufactured here, and may even the HPC Blades/disc and Vanes are assembled (and not manufactured), that's like strategic shift/jointness paradigm, right - surely there'll be some immediate quid-pro-quo in terms of an offensive platform-sales attached to it.
etc etc

And we will have to endure another set of tough tongue-twister acronyms for years on now ...

Whatever happened to all those bombastic "offset-clauses" put on various platform purchases earlier - nothing, as nothing was supposed to come out of it anyway - these offset tamasha is just that, a tamasha to keep continue to keep us "feeling important" (wrt splurging on further dev of foreign MIC), for the mango-folks like us.

you are making the same mistake that everyone here is making.

The goras were/are/never will be our friends

the legalese of the "offset-clauses" have been drafted by very expensive and sharp gora lawyers. We have enough jaichands in our ecosystem to help them out, especially when the time comes to wriggle out of any clause(s)

whereas, we have b@nd@l reservation quota type govt babooze who are running the show

till date, no "offset clause project" has ever gone beyond basic sheet metal type of "foreign value added" fabrication or produced any other tangible result

even for the P8I, we only made metallic boxes

[Prasad]

I seriously think India should delink the AMCA (and any other aircraft) from AN engine. I very much doubt, even with GE/RR/Safran help India will get a reliable engine of 110 kN by the time the AMCA is ready. With that in mind, I would seriously suggest that the AMCA use the GE-414 EPE, with the 116 kN thrust, and drop their fetish for a 110 kN engine. Just buy the EPE off the shelf and use it from day one.

On GTRE dreaming of an engine - none will come for at least 15 years. I think the funds are there - there is no will like that for ISRO/nuclear stuff. And, I cannot see an aircraft after the AMCA. So, my thinking is what is the hurry in getting an Indian engine at this point in time - that window has closed IMO.

Funds are where? We are talking nearly 1000 crores in just infrastructure for engine development. Not even 10 is available on hand. Let's not even talk about the mammoth funding required in the materials and manufacturing space. If we end up fielding nearly an entire air force based on the GE engine, might as well buy the F18s and close the Mk2 & AMCA programs today. Why bother doing those even?

Being unwilling to put in the hard yards technologically and fiscally will be as idiotic as wrapping up aero development after the Marut. The govt hasn't even let the Kaveri fly on a fighter so far despite Safran OK'ing it years ago.

[chetak]

I seriously think India should delink the AMCA (and any other aircraft) from AN engine. I very much doubt, even with GE/RR/Safran help India will get a reliable engine of 110 kN by the time the AMCA is ready. With that in mind, I would seriously suggest that the AMCA use the GE-414 EPE, with the 116 kN thrust, and drop their fetish for a 110 kN engine. Just buy the EPE off the shelf and use it from day one.

On GTRE dreaming of an engine - none will come for at least 15 years. I think the funds are there - there is no will like that for ISRO/nuclear stuff. And, I cannot see an aircraft after the AMCA. So, my thinking is what is the hurry in getting an Indian engine at this point in time - that window has closed IMO.

Funds are where? We are talking nearly 1000 crores in just infrastructure for engine development. Not even 10 is available on hand. Let's not even talk about the mammoth funding required in the materials and manufacturing space. If we end up fielding nearly an entire air force based on the GE engine, might as well buy the F18s and close the Mk2 & AMCA programs today. Why bother doing those even?

Being unwilling to put in the hard yards technologically and fiscally will be as idiotic as wrapping up aero development after the Marut. The govt hasn't even let the Kaveri fly on a fighter so far despite Safran OK'ing it years ago.

why not ask the russkis to help out and make the best of a bad bargain.

Maybe we could start from there, and build the expertise as we go along, and that would help trim the timelines to a manageable horizon

In any case, even with the goras, we need to build and equip a very expensive engine R&D cum aero engine production plant, complete with test facilities.

and maybe get some space/nuke senior retired type(s) to run point on the project

This govt will fund, provided they are able to see the assurance of a reliable product, post flight tests, and not the very expensive castles in the air that have been built so far.

two-three decades already spent is plenty of time for warm up and stretching but now the actual race must be run for nothing less than a podium finish.

If the govt were to plonk down a few billion $ as additional part of the offset clause which I strongly suspect that the goras are waiting for, some gora govt may green light the project.

but after India, despite all pressure, went on its merry way and supported the russkis, none of the goras want to see another china rise, and spit in their eye, especially after we overtook the britshits in GDP, the goras like us even less....

[chetak]

General Electric applies for US permission to build a multi billion dollar jet engine manufacturing facility in India.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rtnerships

[fanne]

how about this -Miss Regime change gave us a carrot and stick to move from Russia, India said, acid test give us full ToT of engine. Now the second will never happen as everyone is predicting, so then first will also not happen.

[Rakesh]

Here we go again ... the tamasha never stops, I guess.

It never will Sirjee. Two things happening here;

1) Screwdrivergiri of the GE F414 turbofan is being set up in India because of the market that now exists i.e. Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, the first two AMCA squadrons, etc. GE is hoping to make a breakthrough for the follow on AMCA squadrons via this screwdrivergiri venture. Rolls Royce and Safran are the other two contenders. Dr Kota Harinarayana is heading the committee for a JV with a foreign firm for a 110kN turbofan for AMCA.

2) The grand vision (media created hype and not grounded in reality) of India and the US collaborating on jet engine technology will be relegated to the screwdrivergiri domain only. It will not progress beyond that stage. But seeing how some need slivers of hope to cling to, this will be spun into a magnificent dream. Saar, do you remember this? ---> Single Engine contract (buying F-16 from Amreeka) is payment for engine technology from the US? Get ready for that again on BRF due to the below.

From the White House...

United States and India Elevate Strategic Partnership with the initiative on Critical and Emerging Technology (iCET)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... logy-icet/
31 Jan 2023

• Developing a new bilateral Defense Industrial Cooperation Roadmap to accelerate technological cooperation between both countries for the joint development and production, with an initial focus on exploring projects related to jet engines, munition related technologies, and other systems.

• Noting the United States has received an application from General Electric to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft operated and produced indigenously by India. The United States commits to an expeditious review of this application.

[fanne]

There are various level of India/US relationship in increasing order of importance. We are at first or second stage I guess
1) Strategic ally
2) More Strategic ally
3) Very Strategic Ally
4) Very Strategic ally of the first order
n+5)....Very Strategic ally of the nth order
n+6) Strategic cum Non- Nato ally
n+7) Strategic cum non nato ally with shared value like democracy, rule of law etc.
n+..n) Strategic cum near Nato + Follows US rules and values

On all these level of friendship, the ToT offer is as follows
1) We will provide philips screwdriver made of steel
2) Chrome plated head
4) The point of the screw is star
n+5) The screw head is interchangeable

When we are best friends, we will perhaps have the same screwdriver that they gave UK 20 years ago.

[Rakesh]

Has the US ever had a friend Saar? It is more like a Lord-Serf relationship no?

[Rakesh]

Transformational Opportunity = Monetary Opportunity. So who is that opportunity for exactly?

https://twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/status/ ... BTLCrg1twg ---> "GE Aerospace has applied for an export license for jet engine production and phased tech transfer in India, according to a senior administration official...."This is going to be a transformational opportunity for multiple aircraft..."

U.S. and India launch high-level defense and tech initiative
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... h-defense/
31 Jan 2023

Also from the above article...the real reason for India weaning from Russia comes out in the open.

“A lot of [American] business folks would say, ‘We’ve got to have confidence that you’re going to be a reliable buyer, that you have the money to pay for these things, and that the process is more transparent,” said a second administration official. “So there’s work to be done on both sides.”

[NRao]

Funds are where? ............

From the same source where they found funds for the nuclear program.

From the same source where they found funds for the space program.

From the same source where they found funds for confronting the PLA on the LAC (my understanding is that they spent US $1 billion a month).

From the same source where they found funds for addressing huge problems when the Hunan virus struck India.

The "engine" is not a priority for the GoI.

And, if - as I personally expect - China, as we know it today, ceases to exist, then even this ToT will be canceled (perhaps along with the LCA/AMCA/what-ever-else).

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... 1wPt_GhV-A ---> Senior Defence Journalist writing about 100% technology transfer of jet engine (GE-F414) shows us quality of defence journalism in this country...

GE-414 military jet engines set to be manufactured in India
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 6-amp.html
01 Feb 2023

While the Narendra Modi government is tight-lipped about the entire project, HT learns that the GE-414 engine will be manufactured under terms that include 100% transfer of technology (ToT) , with the deal likely to be sealed during the on-going visit of the high-level delegation led by National Security Adviser Ajit Doval’s visit to the US.

[Rakesh]

Only Hakeem can come up with such a gem!

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... 1wPt_GhV-A ---> As aerospace capital, the expression ToT was understood first in Bengaluru - it is half-Kannada. It stands for "Thiga Olage Thumb" - meaning thumb in your ass - the real meaning of "ToT".

Above tweet was in response to the tweet below....

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... 1wPt_GhV-A ---> The 98kN thrust producing GE-414 jet engines to be manufactured in India with 100% ToT.

[NRao]

^^^^^

Did shiv lose his @bennedose?

[chetak]

^^^^^

Did shiv lose his @bennedose?

it looks like twitter blocked him

[Rakesh]

it looks like twitter blocked him

I don't believe so. Still alive and active

Twitter will block you for threats, fake news (aka the Stable Genius) or promoting violence.

Hakeem is speaking the truth onlee. If they have to block him for this, that would be funny

[ramana]

The problem with cynicism is when the real deal comes no one recognizes it.
The current deal is for F-414-400 ie the 98KN wet thrust.
With 100% TOT. What does this mean? All technology to mfg these engines by the joint venture.
The EPE is pie in the sky and it will produce 117KN max. So why waste resources on it?
This buy will enable Mk2 production, AMCA, and TEDBF, and hence ORCA development.
However, due to the 98KN limit they will need better engines.

That's what KH committee is working on.
So be happy for a little while.

[ramana]

Shiv's old account is shaheed.
Thanks to pan paraag.
He has a new account.

[Rakesh]

See below from the official HAL press release, nearly a year and a half back. This is formalization of the already conceived plan. The rest is media generated hype which catches on like a fever. The manufacturing will be similar to the Saturn AL-31FP turbofan that HAL did for the Su-30MKI or the Safran Ardiden 1H (which HAL calls Shakti) turboshaft for the Dhruv helicopter. Different variants of this turboshaft is used for the LCH and LUH series of helicopters.

LCA Program Gains Ground with HAL Signing Contract Worth Rs 5375 Crores with GE Aviation, USA for Supply of GE F404 Engines
https://hal-india.co.in/News_Detail.asp ... 0&Ckey=349
17 Aug 2021

The indigenously built Tejas aircraft is one of the best in its class globally, powered by F404-GE-IN20 engines and has been in service since 2004. Ordering of the engines, marks a major milestone in the execution of 83 LCA contract with IAF. The co-operation will be further enhanced with the manufacturing of GE F414 engines in India for the upcoming LCA MkII program.

[chetak]

it looks like twitter blocked him

I don't believe so. Still alive and active

Twitter will block you for threats, fake news (aka the Stable Genius) or promoting violence.

[color=#FF0000Hakeem is speaking the truth onlee][/color]. If they have to block him for this, that would be funny

saar, wasn't his twitter handle @benedose earlier or am I mistaken

people like Hakeem who are speaking the truth onlee, are the onlee ones that are banned, no

[chetak]

so, this is where the goras are headed

[maitya]

<snip>
The manufacturing will be similar to the Saturn AL-31FP turbofan that HAL did for the Su-30MKI
<snip>

Yes Yes Yes ... there'll be 100%, what-was-that-term, oh yes, "manufacturing from raw material" of the GE F-414, just like the way it is done for AL-31FP.
Sorry, couldn't control myself ... and ofcourse, not directed to you, Rakeshji, merely quoting your post, that's all.

Betw ever heard of Volvo RM12 (a derivative of F404) ...
After all these ToT type discussions/contract signature etc, and even after "making" them for 10+ years (1996 onwards - till I think 2010 etc, not sure - 250+ engines "made"), all they were allowed to manufacture were,
1) the fan (redesigned by Volvo themselves),
2) LPC compressor discs and case, compressor spool, hubs, seals
3) afterburner.
Of course final assembly and testing was 100% in-scope for them - and so was the digital FADEC (another Swedish own design).

And, oh yes, pls remember there's something called "Core of a turbofan", whose components and subsystems also needs "making/manufacturing" isn't it?

And, by the way, this despite they being not turd-world-Kallurams like us (actually an almost-NATO member) ... 100% ToT, oh boy!!!

[Rakesh]

Godrej Aerospace to build turbo engines in tie-up with DRDO research centre
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 5.ece/amp/
11 Feb 2023

Bags order for eight modules of six engines.

[ramana]

Maitya, What are these modules for dry Kaveri? Are they subsystems or the entire engine?

[maitya]

Maitya, What are these modules for dry Kaveri? Are they subsystems or the entire engine?

Any "Dry version" of a turbofan would essentially mean the Core + Fan i.e. major subsystems would be:
1) Core - HPC, Combustor, HPT Vanes, HPT itself (so both blades and disk - aka the holy grail, per some), Spool (twins - one for the HP and LP compressors and turbines), hubs and seals etc
2) Non Core - LPT, Fan, again hubs, seals etc
Plus of course, the std casings, FADEC, AMAGB etc etc etc.

Aka, nothing short of a full-fledged turbofan (minus the afterburner) - betw dry-part of Kaveri (aka Kabini) met all it's design goals, more or less, quite a while back. Issue was with achieving wet-thrust parameter and of course, the weight itself (950kg vs 1150Kg) etc.

[Kailash]

India is not serious about significant investments into aero engines. We will never know how much intent and funds are put into stealing technology - rapid progress in indigenous engines is a possible indirect indicator. We can safely write off any chance of real transfer of technology for anyone who has been in the business of selling engines.

Once every few years once we hear reports of RR or Safran close to being bankrupt, but they never fully get there. If it is just about the IP, know-how and know-why, why not just buy it them off outright?

Suppose GoI plans to buy a stake in one of these two companies, what would be the legal/diplomatic challenges and can the British/French government block/veto such a sale?