Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

[Kersi]

From a retired Armoured Corps officer.

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 36034?s=20 ---> The proposed induction of the Leopard tank is a cause of worry to Russia. Just imagine a program to induct 500 MBT Arjun Mk1As would have done to our adversaries. It would have also placed our future armoured vehicle programs on an even keel. What have we done!!!

Does it mean that Russia is confident the Leopards will make a mince meat of their T 92s ?

[Pratyush]

No, it means that the concerned officer has seen the results of the what modern anti armour weapons can do to USSR origin combat vehicles and looks back at what might have been.

If the Indian army made different choices post 91.

The good news is that the Indian army has learnt about what happened in Ukraine. The so called in principle acceptance people are referring to on you tube is openly talking about vehicles upto 57.5 tons. With a 120 mm gun at minimum. The nos of vehicles to be purchased is 560.

No more BS about medium tanks.

[Manish_P]

...
The good news is that the Indian army has learnt about what happened in Ukraine...

No more BS about medium tanks.

And what if the Ukraine war ends in a few months/years... how confident are we that the BS about the medium tanks won't be back?

The retd. officer in the post has always been a supporter of Arjun, at least since i have been following his posts on twitter the past few years.

Nothing against what you have stated, Pratyush ji, i am a firm believer of Shiv sir's words to the effect - 'we are a huge power with a vast variety of needs. We need equipment of all sizes/weight classes. Modularity in itself is very useful, but it should not end up becoming the obstacle itself'

[A Sharma]

DRDO Newsletter June 2023

HANDING OVER OF PARAMILITARY VARIANT OF WhAP 8X8 TO CRPF

[Prem Kumar]

IA Armored Leadership lacks maturity & vision. They are lazy, fossilized in their thinking & are ensconced in their comfort zone. They don't prepare for an actual war & think that the MEA babus + Track-2 will jaw-jaw their way out of fighting.

I am not even going into the corruption angle

...When they thought Pakis were buying Abrams, they shot off a GSQR for the Arjun
...When they see Chinese bringing light tanks to Ladakh, they want a Zorawar. They forgot their own history of light tanks in Ladakh
...When they see Russian tanks being made mincemeat of in Ukraine, they want a 58 tonne tank with APS, drones & what-not. Suddenly, our roads & bridges can take the 58 tonne weight, which they wouldn't, for the Arjun

When these conflicts end, its back to navel-gazing and Patiala-peg-swigging again

Pathetic bunch of jokers. India deserves better. Our tank commanders, gunners & crew deserve better.

[Vips]

Per a defence AV channel, Konkurs-M ATGM has been upgraded with a infra-red thermal Seeker developed by Tonbo Imaging.

[Pratyush]

Per a defence AV channel, Konkurs-M ATGM has been upgraded with a infra-red thermal Seeker developed by Tonbo Imaging.

https://tonboimaging.com/defense/produc ... le/sarisa/

This is a clip-on sight for the system.

[Kersi]

Per a defence AV channel, Konkurs-M ATGM has been upgraded with a infra-red thermal Seeker developed by Tonbo Imaging.

https://tonboimaging.com/defense/produc ... le/sarisa/

This is a clip-on sight for the system.

Can we now start forgetting Konkurs and think of Nag and Amogha and their siblings ?

Any reason for Konkurs ? Do we have too many of them ?

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/166 ... 96993?s=20 ---> Typical American way of doing things. When the @DRDO_India - Tata WhAP has already entered limited service and is set to be built in numbers, they very nicely offer ToT for the goddamn STRYKER. I am sorry, but New Delhi must stay the course with the DRDO WhAP platform, which is all set to be mass produced.

[Vips]

Can we now start forgetting Konkurs and think of Nag and Amogha and their siblings ?

Any reason for Konkurs ? Do we have too many of them ?

Check this: More samosa and chai slurping by our bureaucrats.

Army seeks Anti-Tank Guided Missiles for its Mechanised Infantry Arm.

In its efforts to further enhance firepower along its borders with Pakistan and China, Indian Army is looking for Infantry Combat Vehicle launched Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGMs) and has issued a Request for Information (RFI) for the same.

The RFI which has been issued earlier this month is for the procurement of around 5000 Fire & Forget ATGMs along with around 500 Launcher Systems that can be adapted on locally built BMP-2/2K ‘Sarath’ infantry combat vehicles (ICVs).

The RFI is looking for Indian vendors who are capable to supply Fire & Forget ATGMs along with Launcher Systems which can be fitted on BMP-2/2K which are produced in India under license, within three years from the signing of the contract. And they should be able to supply 1750 Fire & Forget ATGMs along with 175 Launcher Systems each year.

What is mentioned in the RFI?

The document which is available in the public domain specifies the ATGMs which are capable of top and direct attack modes have a 125 mm caliber, less than 1.25 m in length, and should be 25 kg in weight. These missiles should have the ability for direct and top attack modes to fire at a minimum range of 200 m and 1,100 m, and at a maximum range of more than 5 km.

These ATGMs should be capable of penetrating at least 650 mm rolled homogeneous armour equivalent (RHAe) and explosive reactive armour (ERA).

As part of its modernization of the Mechanised Infantry, Army has plans to equip it with the Fire and Forget Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGMs), state-of-art missiles and also lethal capability beyond visual range (BVR).

As the most versatile arm Mechanised Infantry brings to battle a protected Infantry component. And this is directly supported by lethal and precision firepower which is provided by BMP-II. Over the past four decades it has excelled in different terrains and operations from the deserts of Rajasthan, plains of Punjab to high altitude areas of Eastern Ladakh & Sikkim.

Financial Express Only has reported that the Army is to acquire the Canister Launched Loiter Munition System that too has to be integrated on BMP II/ Carrier Mortar Tracked (CMT) chassis.

[Pratyush]

Will it be the same ATGM fitted to the FICV?

We will never know.

[Kersi]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/166 ... 96993?s=20 ---> Typical American way of doing things. When the @DRDO_India - Tata WhAP has already entered limited service and is set to be built in numbers, they very nicely offer ToT for the goddamn STRYKER. I am sorry, but New Delhi must stay the course with the DRDO WhAP platform, which is all set to be mass produced.

Very common with ALL firangi suppliers.

[Manish_P]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/166 ... 96993?s=20 ---> Typical American way of doing things. When the @DRDO_India - Tata WhAP has already entered limited service and is set to be built in numbers, they very nicely offer ToT for the goddamn STRYKER. I am sorry, but New Delhi must stay the course with the DRDO WhAP platform, which is all set to be mass produced.

What exactly is the TOT about? The armor? the engine? the gun? the optics? the Americans manning the vehicle?

[Kersi]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/166 ... 96993?s=20 ---> Typical American way of doing things. When the @DRDO_India - Tata WhAP has already entered limited service and is set to be built in numbers, they very nicely offer ToT for the goddamn STRYKER. I am sorry, but New Delhi must stay the course with the DRDO WhAP platform, which is all set to be mass produced.

What exactly is the TOT about? The armor? the engine? the gun? the optics? the Americans manning the vehicle?

The "TOT" is just to stop India from any further development of the WhAP so we reamin dependent on foreign sources

[Pratyush]

Don't be shocked of the army actually writes RFI just for the Striker X. Completely sidelining the WhAP.

[Manish_P]

Don't be shocked of the army actually writes RFI just for the Striker X. Completely sidelining the WhAP.

So a 'x'-kilowatt high-energy laser And what else... integrated drone-operations capability.

Would be fun if the specification calls for the APC to be optionally manned

[Rakesh]

There is an old joke that holds true in the halls of the MoD ---> the services first wait for a foreign product to arrive on the international market and then write the RFI for that exact same product.

Any possible offer of ToT on the Stryker is nothing more than ToP (Transfer of Production). Screwdrivergiri is what India refers to as Transfer of Technology. Very few in India actually know the difference.

If you see a future RFI come out for an Armoured Personnel Carrier, refer to the Stryker's specifications

[basant]

Lol! We should have a new term, RFS (Request For Specifications). It is necessary so that we can place order as soon the foreign entities launch the product. That way, with additional orders, the cost of acquisition can also be reduced. And who knows! One day we can defeat USA with their own products as we may have their latest products before their own armed forces.

[sanman]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/166 ... 96993?s=20 ---> Typical American way of doing things. When the @DRDO_India - Tata WhAP has already entered limited service and is set to be built in numbers, they very nicely offer ToT for the goddamn STRYKER. I am sorry, but New Delhi must stay the course with the DRDO WhAP platform, which is all set to be mass produced.

What are the actual meaningful differences between the Stryker and the WhAP?

I remember the first time I'd read about Stryker way back, there was a whole list of complaints about its deficiencies.
I don't see Ukrainians using Stryker. Instead they're using surplus Bradley Fighting Vehicles (I've heard complaints about those too)

[rajkumar]

[Mollick.R]

X-post

BEML bags order from Defence Ministry of Defence for Rs 423.11 crore

Written by FE Business June 23, 2023 16:20 IST

State-owned BEML Ltd on Friday announced that it has won a significant contract from the Ministry of Defence (MOD) for the supply of High Mobility vehicles. The total contract value is Rs 423.11 crore. “We hereby inform that BEML Limited has bagged an order from MOD for supply of High Mobility vehicles. The total contract value is Rs 423.11 crore,” the company said in a regulatory filing.


https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... e/3139758/

[Pratyush]

Indian Defence Updates, is reporting that Zorawar will be equipped with MPATGM. It has a range of 4 KMS.

MPATGM supposedly has cleared all tests.

The Indian army has also asked for the BMP 2 to be fitted with an ATGM with a range of 5 KMS. Surprising, that the Indian army has not asked for MPATGM to be fitted on the BMP.

Surprising because MPATGM will fit within the storage dimensions for the missile given by the Indian army.

[Pratyush]

The IDRW is reporting that ARDE is developing a 120 mm smooth bore gun for FRCV.

[RoyG]

Indian Defence Updates, is reporting that Zorawar will be equipped with MPATGM. It has a range of 4 KMS.

MPATGM supposedly has cleared all tests.

The Indian army has also asked for the BMP 2 to be fitted with an ATGM with a range of 5 KMS. Surprising, that the Indian army has not asked for MPATGM to be fitted on the BMP.

Surprising because MPATGM will fit within the storage dimensions for the missile given by the Indian army.

L&T license manufacture of next gen french atgm will be winner then. High level corruption which the criteria itself is changed to suit a foreign weapon system.

[Pratyush]

IDRW, is reporting that the DRDO is working on Arjun Mk2, as well as the FRCV.

But they are not sure, if these are 2 seperate programs or a single unified program.

Point to note is that ARDE is developing a smooth bore 120 mm tank gun for the FRCV.

[Pratyush]

A synopsis of the future of the tank from a symposium attended by the chieftain.

This is quite interesting listen.

It's quite remarkable to see in near real time how military is responding to the desired characteristics in a future tank. In context of the near transparent battlefield.

It is being accepted by both the industry and military that it's possible for a crew 2 manage the vehicle. With certain roles being automated and mechanised.

The Germans have come up with nearly 300 distinct requirements to be met by a combat vehicle but it has to weigh no more than 50 tons. When it enters service. But the drive train and running gear is being designed with a growth of upto 40% weight.

They are also open decentralisation of the stated 300 requirements to multiple vehicles. Because they believe that each and every one of the requirements is a must have. All sharing common architecture and mechanical components.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/RETHIK5706/status/1 ... 69826?s=20 ---> DRDO mine clearing system

[Rakesh]

Army aims to fast-track Future Ready Combat Vehicle to replace T-72 tank, induct it from 2030
https://theprint.in/defence/army-aims-t ... 0/1714313/
14 August 2023

Technical parameters are being finalised & plan is to have first prototype in four years, it is learnt. FRCV is expected to weigh not more than 60 tonnes as against 45-tonne T-72 tank.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/169 ... 92609?s=20 ---> And finally, how can I not share the history of Arjun tank on the independence day? Know how many projects were actually worked on to reach current one!

[Pratyush]

Why is an Arjun upgrade insufficient for FRCV, if the objective is to have a 60 ton tank?

[KSingh]

Why is an Arjun upgrade insufficient for FRCV, if the objective is to have a 60 ton tank?

FRCV is tailor made for certain foreign SKD jobs blatantly

[Pratyush]

Will the Indian army continue with WHaP, now that the US is open to making Stryker in India.

https://idrw.org/united-states-proposes ... ns-emerge/

Published on 19th August 23.

[Kersi]

Army aims to fast-track Future Ready Combat Vehicle to replace T-72 tank, induct it from 2030
https://theprint.in/defence/army-aims-t ... 0/1714313/
14 August 2023

Technical parameters are being finalised & plan is to have first prototype in four years, it is learnt. FRCV is expected to weigh not more than 60 tonnes as against 45-tonne T-72 tank.

They must have just got the T 14 Armata specifications !!!

[sanjayc]

Chasing bird in the bush always

[mody]

Army aims to fast-track Future Ready Combat Vehicle to replace T-72 tank, induct it from 2030
https://theprint.in/defence/army-aims-t ... 0/1714313/
14 August 2023

They must have just got the T 14 Armata specifications !!!

Surprisingly the PSQR still asks for a 4 man crew. This would mean no autoloader. A main gun size above 120mm is also ruled out, as handling larger sized ammo manually would not be possible. Hope they change this and go for a 3 man crew with a turret based autoloader like the French tanks and opt for a 130mm main gun. A gun fired ATGM for 130mm gun could also possibly designed with a range of 6-8 Kms.

[Tanaji]

They must have just got the T 14 Armata specifications !!!

Surprisingly the PSQR still asks for a 4 man crew. This would mean no autoloader. A main gun size above 120mm is also ruled out, as handling larger sized ammo manually would not be possible. Hope they change this and go for a 3 man crew with a turret based autoloader like the French tanks and opt for a 130mm main gun. A gun fired ATGM for 130mm gun could also possibly designed with a range of 6-8 Kms.

This is by design. IA will then change the QR mid project after design freeze and prototype and ask for an auto loader which will delay the program. They will the use the same delay as pretext to buy a foreign tank.

This is all predictable.

[Pratyush]

While the past behaviour of the Indian army WRT, indigenous development of armaments makes me believe what you are saying.

However, there was a seminar about the future of armoured warfare. A summary of which was posted by The Chieftain. I linked that you tube video in the previous page of the thread. Leads me to a different conclusion.

In that video, at least from the German POV, it was clear that they would happily take a 120, or something even lighter as a main armament of the future AFV. If it enabled them to take multiple shots at the target. Stripping the APS. Before killing the vehicle it self.

That being the case. It's quite possible for the Indian Army to reach a similar conclusion by themselves. Or simply copy that approach.

That also will explain why ARDE is developing a 120 mm smooth bore for the FRCV. But the ARDE effort is for a gun capable of functioning with an auto loader.

Also, the FRCV RFI released by the Indian army. If I ignore the typical Indian circus of weight. Where the don't understand that a 42.5 ton vehicle cannot be included in a competition with a 58.5 ton vehicle.

The Indian Army is asking for something that is quite forward thinking in terms of what the FRCV should be.

So much so that, both the ABRAMS X and the Panther prototypes might well have been developed by respective companies after going through the Indian Army RFI for the FRCV.

[Rakesh]

Image Source: https://battlemachines.org/2023/08/09/t ... -advocate/

...Here is the comparison of Arjun vs the Indian T-90SB1 / T-90SB2. India’s T-90 procurement was entirely flawed, as mentioned in my Arjun article. Everything from the base armor, to ERA, to the gun’s metallurgy to even the FCS was not shared by the Russians. DRDO used the tech made for Arjun to fill in the gaps in the ToT. Even then T-90 could only match Arjun with relaxed parameters, while Arjun could do everything without any concessions. Yet, 2000 T-90s are on order and only 200 Arjuns.

[NRao]

Is AI part of any solutions?

[Pratyush]

The future MBT in the western world is seeking a virtual crew man. In terms of AI.

That is why they are thinking in terms of a 2 manned crew.

Rhinemettale is supposed to be a world leader in development of such capabilities