VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote: 31 Jan 2024 07:38 After elections eh? This is sounding a bit like the m2k deal during 2005 2004 election year. Everyone was so sure of India shining team with George Fernandez and ABV winning, and we all know what happened. M2k "done deal" became mmrca, which became sef, which became mrfa with no phyter in sight 20 years later.

Hope this doesn't repeat. Nation can't afford another lose decade. I think it's horrible negligence that India didn't immediately buy rafale line after 2019 win. By now we'd be churning out 1sqd per year
The odds do favour the Rafale as the MRFA, post the Indian Navy's selection of the Rafale M. With Macron's visit, more deals (relating to Rafale i.e. MRO for the Rafale's M88 turbofans) were proposed. But we have been here before. So it remains to be seen how this is going to play out.

The only consistent factor (from MMRCA 1.0 to SEF to MRFA) is the IAF's preference for French maal over US maal. And in the SEF contest, the IAF veered towards the Gripen E, as there was no French contender. But Gripen E would have been the end of the Tejas program.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by srai »

I don’t think IAF will get its 100+ Rafales.

Most likely they will get another small batch for 1 squadron plus some extra for reserves.

If the IAF gets another 24 units, then
18 + 2 reserves
Previous 2 squadrons get 2 extra reserves each

IN will get its 26 as this will be deemed more critical replacement gap for MiG-29Ks.

Main goal for GoI would be to address the short-term gap for a more few years until indigenous platforms arrive: Tejas Mk2, AMCA Mk1 and TEDBF. Tejas Mk1A (83+97) already provides a huge buffer for the IAF until 2030.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by srai »

Another point to make is that India doesn’t necessarily need to have 100 orders to license build Rafales in India.

Instead, with any additional deals like 26 Rafale-M India can negotiate 50% offset whereby Dassault expands their spare parts and component production in India. Builds facilities for servicing and repairs in India.

Over 30-40 years of Rafales operating with airforces in the region (Egypt, UAE, Qatar, Indonesia, and others), there is a lot of opportunity to earn money offering parts/components and repair/overhaul services.

Think beyond license production assembly lines.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1757 ... 36058?s=20 ---> Front Sector Optronics (FSO) of IAF Rafale F3R(I).
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 31 Jan 2024 07:45 ..
The only consistent factor (from MMRCA 1.0 to SEF to MRFA) is the IAF's preference for French maal over US maal. And in the SEF contest, the IAF veered towards the Gripen E, as there was no French contender...
Another consistent factor was no to more Russi maal :)

With a licensed/variant of the GE engine the Gripen was/is also an American fighter at heart.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Roop »

Manish_P wrote: 14 Feb 2024 07:37 Another consistent factor was no to more Russi maal :)
Yes, I think you're right. That is a reasonable conclusion to draw from IAF's observed behaviour.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Amazing video from Pixel Park Production on the IAF Rafale.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by rajsunder »

srai wrote: 01 Feb 2024 16:19 Another point to make is that India doesn’t necessarily need to have 100 orders to license build Rafales in India.

Instead, with any additional deals like 26 Rafale-M India can negotiate 50% offset whereby Dassault expands their spare parts and component production in India. Builds facilities for servicing and repairs in India.

Over 30-40 years of Rafales operating with airforces in the region (Egypt, UAE, Qatar, Indonesia, and others), there is a lot of opportunity to earn money offering parts/components and repair/overhaul services.

Think beyond license production assembly lines.
Indian govt has removed the offset clause in military purchases

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 715556.ece
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by prashantsharma »

Rakesh wrote: 16 Feb 2024 18:43 Amazing video from Pixel Park Production on the IAF Rafale.
It's appalling that $100mn fighters are parked in hardened shelters without protective doors in the age of FPV drones and PGMs.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

prashantsharma wrote: 18 Feb 2024 11:52
Rakesh wrote: 16 Feb 2024 18:43 Amazing video from Pixel Park Production on the IAF Rafale.
It's appalling that $100mn fighters are parked in hardened shelters without protective doors in the age of FPV drones and PGMs.
Amabala and Hasimara both have bomb resistant shelters. It was part of the infrastructure upgrades in the first Rafale contract.

What you are seeing in the video are blast pens. That is the old infrastructure that has not yet been demolished and is still in use.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by prashantsharma »

Hashimara has 15 new HAS, most of which probably have doors (difficult to make out doors in the sat imagery).
In Ambala, the construction of about 6-10 has commenced recently as can be seen in sat imagery. Completion will probably take a year more atleast.
And what happens when in war you have to disperse them to other bases?
The bulk of the bases and fleet incl the Sukhois are exposed to some terrorist flying a drone into these exposed door-less blast pens / HAS.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

prashantsharma wrote: 18 Feb 2024 21:12 Hashimara has 15 new HAS, most of which probably have doors (difficult to make out doors in the sat imagery).
In Ambala, the construction of about 6-10 has commenced recently as can be seen in sat imagery. Completion will probably take a year more atleast.
And what happens when in war you have to disperse them to other bases?
The bulk of the bases and fleet incl the Sukhois are exposed to some terrorist flying a drone into these exposed door-less blast pens / HAS.
The sat imagery (google maps) for both Hasimara and Ambala are a bit dated. But even in that sat imagery, one can see the construction of the HAS and other support infrastructure. These pictures are likely from 2017 - 2020 time period, as the first batch of Rafales arrived at Ambala in July 2020 and some HAS were ready by that date. How many have been completed to date will not be revealed, for obvious reasons, but both airbases have/are been built to house two squadrons each of the Rafale.

When Rafales are dispersed to other bases, they are stationed at bases that feature HAS. Here is a video that was just published yesterday at Leh Air Force Station in the Union Territory of Ladakh. Check out from 13:26 and from 14:36 in the video and one will see a MiG-29UPG inside a HAS and then a Rafale in an open blast pen, which is right outside a HAS at 15:35 in the video. Why these HAS do not have doors is a mystery though.

The Pakistan Air Force - thanks to the CEATO and SENTO agreements signed in the 50s - still have HAS built from that time period and they do have doors. PAF Base Shahbaz at Jacobabad - home of the PAF's 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52 fleet - also have HAS with doors if I am not mistaken.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by prashantsharma »

The imagery for Ambala, in which the commencement of construction of new HAS is discernable, is infact very recent - 2/11/2023 to be precise. The previous image for Ambala is from Sept 2022 in which there is no sign of construction of HAS. So it means the construction commenced in the recent months preceeding Nov 2023.
Yes, one can see construction of other Rafale related infra like Hangars and maintenance buildings commence in earlier imagery from Jan 2019 onwards. But construction of new HAS did not start back then. HAS are huge and distinctive structures some of which are almost 40mx40m and are unmistakable in satellite imagery. So I am not mistaken in these timelines or in the count of HAS. One does not need the govt to 'reveal' such info. It is all available there for anyone to see on Google.

The IAF prefers to use the term 'blast pen' for what you are calling 'HAS'. Even new tenders are using the term blast pen. Blast pen is not the open to sky area just outside the covered 'HAS' as you are mentioning. It is all built together. Refer to the quite lengthy discussion on HAS/blast pens in the IAF thread some months ago as to why door-less HAS still predominate.

The lament is not about why IAF does not have enough HAS. They have many hundreds of them. The lament is about (a) they dont have enough of them big enough for Sukhois (b) they have very few in the north-east, not even smaller / older ones and (c) very few of the HAS have protection doors to safeguard the aircraft inside from PGMs and drones.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The google maps satellite imagery for Amabala AFS - or anywhere in India - presently states 2024. Can you direct me to a link with that date you mentioned --> 2/11/2023? I would like to see that.

I referred to the previous discussion on HAS and/or blast pens in the IAF thread and you had mentioned that such a project was sanctioned in 2019. I came across these articles which are stating the same.

110 hardened shelters for IAF fighter jets to be built close to Pakistan, China borders
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 312125234/
12 Mar 2019
Seeking to provide protection to fighter aircraft from enemy bombing or missile strikes on air bases, the government has cleared the construction of around 110 hardened shelters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) at locations close to the borders with both China and Pakistan. “The central government has cleared a project for the construction of around 110 hardened shelters also known as blast pens which protect the fighter planes from enemy missile or bomb attacks,” government sources told ANI. “The cost of the project would be more than Rs 5,000 crore and the blast pens would be built in a phased manner at the air bases. This would allow the force to keep its frontline planes such as the heavyweight Su-30MKI at forward bases without the worry of getting damaged on ground,” the sources said.
Sukhois hobbled by lack of blast pens near LoC
https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/t ... 491348.ece
12 March 2019
The consequences of the inordinate delay in building hardened shelters, called blast pens, for the Su-30 fighter jets of the Indian Air Force in forward areas were felt during the recent aerial combat between India and Pakistan. The project was sanctioned only at the end of 2017, two decades after the jets were bought, a defence source said.

“Owing to the bureaucratic delays, we could not develop blast pens for Su-30 MKIs near the Line of Control (LoC). The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) sanctioned the project only at the end of 2017,” the source said. Hence, the jets could not be forward-deployed along the LoC, and they were scrambled from behind to intercept the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jets that tried to bomb Indian military installations, the official said, explaining why the MiG-21 jets were the first responders during the aerial combat a day after the Balakot air strikes.

“The project will take three or four years to complete,” the official said, but declined to spell out the number of pens to be built or their cost.
A tweet dated 12 Jan 2021, shows a pair of NGHAS at Chabua AFS. In the picture, one can clearly see the blast doors.

https://x.com/detresfa_/status/1348950009799077889?s=20 ---> After supporting operations during World War II & the 1962 India - China tensions, the Chabua Air Force Station in Assam looks to be completing its new NGHAS specialized structures capable of housing & protecting fighter aircraft from direct enemy fire -- project began in 2017.

Image

Quoting the above tweet, Eurasian Times came out with this article that I found in a DRDO newsletter (Page 10 in the PDF). Link Below;

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/sites/defa ... n_2021.pdf
The Indian Air Force is believed to have completed the construction of next-generation hardened aircraft shelters (NGHAS) at the Chabua Air Force Station in Assam, close to the China border. The specialized structures are capable of withstanding a 2000-pound bomb. These structures comprise layers of reinforced concrete, sand, and steel. They can protect aircraft from direct hits by a 2,000-pound bomb. In 2019, the Indian government had given the nod to construct 108 modern shelters to house fighter aircraft in the forward areas close to India’s northern borders.
...
The majority of the hardened shelters have been designed to house the Russian-made Su-30MKI jets.
...
Earlier, there were blast pens only in the western sector along the border with Pakistan. The blast pens are an E-shaped double bay to protect the aircraft from strikes by enemy jets or missiles. According to Air Marshal VK ‘Jimmy’ Bhatia (Retd), the NGHAS are of much better quality, offering much better protection to the parked aircraft than the existing pens in the IAF. He is of the opinion that “aircraft parked in these shelters would be able to withstand a nuclear attack outside ground zero without losing their operational capability for mounting retaliatory strikes.
If the NGHAS count - based on OSINT satellite imagery - is correct, then the IAF does have only a few of them across air bases.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 19 Feb 2024 22:04 The google maps satellite imagery for Amabala AFS - or anywhere in India - presently states 2024. Can you direct me to a link with that date you mentioned --> 2/11/2023? I would like to see that.
I answered my own question. I found the date you mentioned.

Google Maps vs Google Earth.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1767 ... 90130?s=20 ---> Directorate of Eng Rafale, Air HQ (Vayu Bhawan) has released an Expression Of Interest (Eol) for Repair of Module 02 (LP Compressor) and Module 04 (HP compressor) for M88 Aero Engine. Reputed Indian firms based in India having technical and financial capability, infrastructure and experience to execute the project can participate. The project will involve certification of airworthiness wherever required and delivery within strict timelines.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1767 ... 10017?s=20 ---> Do you know “one of our new French birds suffered from FOD recently, resulting in damage of low pressure compressor and high pressure compressor segment.”
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/hvtiaf_bharat/status/1769 ... 62995?s=20 ---> Straight and Level is prohibited. @neel385

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by mody »

A good update on the Rafale F4.1 Standard that has just entered service with the French Airforce.

https://youtu.be/b5bID0-Ky6U?si=Yy7ULCbHgIMTES5b

From the video the points that I found to be very interesting are:

1) New Talios targeting pod will replace the Damocles targeting POD, used on the earlier models. India did not opt for the Damocles pod and has stuck to the Israeli pod and it seems it was for good reason. The Damocles pod was not really up to the mark.

2) To integrate the Talios pod, the French have added a dedicated fiber optic link from the POD pylon to the cockpit.

3) The Rafale demonstrated buddy targeting capability around 2005-2007, with an aircraft firing a Mica missile, which was being guided by another Rafale aircraft. However, the F4.1R series now advertises a "Now Connected' aircraft logo.

4) The long term goal for the Rafale is to make it compatible with the F35, by the F5 standard. The French alluded that it would require significant rewiring of the aircraft.

5) The Rafale has two data busses. The slow speed bus has a data rate of 1 Mbps and generally used for transmitting signals within the aircraft.
The high speed bus has a data rate of 20 Mbps. No publicly available data on the computing power that the aircraft has.
The Euro fighter Typhoon also probably in the same league.

6) In comparison, the F35 has a data bus with a speed of 3.2 Gbps. That is a few order of magnitudes higher than the Rafale. This is what it really means to be a 5th gen fighter.

This is a lesson for every other fighter program as well. Just having a stealthy shape does not make an aircraft 5th gen. Having a cutting edge GaN based AESA radar, a highly effective integrated EW suite, advanced engines that can reduce the IR signature of the plane and give it supercruise capability and above all a very high level of sensor fusion, is what makes a 5th gem aircraft. The F35 has a much higher level of sensor fusion than even the F22 and would make a perfect mothership for a swarm of loyal wingman UAVs and loitering drones. The wars of the future will generally not involve low level flights to penetrate enemy air defense systems and trying to attack some vital installations. It will simply be too risky.

Also, for everyone dhoti shivering about the Pakis someday getting their hands onto Chinese F-31 type aircrafts, please remember that apart from a stealthy looking shape (stealth is overrated anyways), there is nothing that would qualify the F-31 to be regarded as a 5th gen fighter aircraft.

Also, something for us to also keep in mind. Recently the MK1A flew with a new DFFC. Supposedly it is based on a PowerPC based platform. Given the kind of data rates the F35 can support and the kind of lead that the Americans have over the others in this field and also assuming that they would probably even have matching computing power onboard the aircraft, it just shows what we should be aiming for. It would be required for the Super 30 upgrade, Tejas MK2, TEDBF and finally the AMCA programs. At a bare minimum, the Tejas MK1A, MK2, Su-30 MKI and Rafale should all be able to talk to each other and share data amongst themselves, along with ground based stations, AWACS and in the future even space based assets and I-Stars type aircrafts. The F35 can currently do all of this at data rates that are a few order of magnitudes higher than any other fighter aircraft.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

mody wrote: 29 Mar 2024 17:59 A good update on the Rafale F4.1 Standard that has just entered service with the French Airforce.
Saar, I moved your post into this thread. Nice post. Great read. Thank you.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Air force wants to source Rafale parts locally
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... lly-609911
11 April 2024

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1778663991059128402 ---> IAF has identified 52 parts of Rafale and 27 parts of Chinook that it wants to be produced in India . Industry IAF meet next month.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by JTull »

@mody PowerPC based DFCC has got nothing do with the data transfer rates of the mission computer/bus.
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