Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[Prem Kumar]

From the Deterrence thread -

A long overdue forward step has been taken.

FINALLY, Divyastra, 19 years late. Next up — Thermonuclear testing - Bharat Karnad

Just wow! We have internal enemies, cowards & losers at the highest levels of the Government, be it Congress or BJP!

Even under Modi, its shameful that it has taken 10 years to do the test. Finally he green-lights it to score some LS 2024 brownie points

Now, its back to chai-biskoot time because hey, induction is a different matter altogether. Unlike ASAT or BMD, hope the MIRV doesn't become a showpiece item

[Cyrano]

This baseless cynical drivel is unworthy of BRF.

[nachiket]

Best to take anything Bharat Karnad says with a bucketful of salt.

[V_Raman]

- Arun_S

Welcome back Webmaster !!

[Rakesh]

Meet 'Divya Putri', Scientist Behind Agni-5 Missile With Multiple Warheads
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mission ... ds-5224381
13 March 2024

[VickyAvinash]

Arun_S sir, any possibility that you bring back your content on BRF? To this day your work remains only authoritative source of credible information on Indian missile program outside of official channels. I remember to this day that it was first thing that I read on BRF way back early 2000s that piqued my interest in defense related matters and hooked me to BRF ever since. Pls consider it if not too much of effort. None of those feudal personalities are on BRF anymore.

[williams]

From the Deterrence thread -

Just wow! We have internal enemies, cowards & losers at the highest levels of the Government, be it Congress or BJP!

Even under Modi, its shameful that it has taken 10 years to do the test. Finally he green-lights it to score some LS 2024 brownie points

Now, its back to chai-biskoot time because hey, induction is a different matter altogether. Unlike ASAT or BMD, hope the MIRV doesn't become a showpiece item

Dr VK Saraswat says it is just a IRBM and not even a ICBM. You cannot have a MIRV test simply successful in the very first attempt. I think India just made a public declaration of her capability. But the maya continues.

[disha]

Best to take anything Bharat Karnad says with a bucketful of salt.

+72

BK is a maximalist and hence gets some mileage by well-meaning maximalist here.

At the same time, BK is very untrustworthy. And he appears to have a big axe to grind. Here is his background:

1. Completed Bachelor's & Master's of *Political Science* from UCB (UC Berkeley) and UCLA (UC Los Angeles), in 1975.

For someone to do political science from premier universities in US indicates that person coming from a very elite background. He is married to Renu Sud Karnad, at one time chairman of HDFC and a graduate of Princeton Univ. US.

2. Ex-VP Ansari launched one of the books of Bharat Karnad. Ex-VP Ansari is a persona non-grata to me and should be to every person who means well for India. For a "strategic expert" like BK, to have Ex-VP Ansari launch his book is a *strategic blunder*.

3. In his latest farticle, BK calls Dr. Chidambaram as a middling scientist. Such name calling is pathetic. Particularly coming from a "political scientist". If a "political science" is a science, then I have an entire fyzics package to sell!

4. It is too rich of BK to go into snide remarks on EAM JaiShankar and others and their families and slyly allege nepotism, without even disclosing his own antecedents! Yes, BK comes from an elite family and we do not know which one, since all traces in public domain has been removed. Married into another elite family, imagine the opportunities one had to Princeton in 1984 or work at a high position in 1978 and reach to the top as chairman of one of the largest mortgage bank in India. For us it-vity types, going to UCB/UCLA for even civil or mechanical or electrical in 1975 meant a dream ticket. Nobody would have opted for Political Science.

5. BK is the last person to comment on the design and efficacy of Nukes, leave alone TN or FBF or missiles. He neither has the background nor the discipline to understand the nuances and identify 2nd and 3rd order outcomes. It is like Darkha Butt gets her way by being bellicose, so does BK gets his way by being a maximalist (like exploding 2 MT or 5 MT nuke).

I do not think BK deserves any space on this forum. And I have cited my reasons above.

[disha]

Dr VK Saraswat says it is just a IRBM and not even a ICBM. You cannot have a MIRV test simply successful in the very first attempt. I think India just made a public declaration of her capability. But the maya continues.

Here is my take on number of "Prithvi" tests. Why something that was already inducted had so many tests, particularly four (4) back to back tests where the missile was tested on the same day or within the week?

Agni V itself had 10 tests (incl MIRV version). In 2016 itself, Agni V had mini and micro-mini INS systems. I think the 2013 launch was a precursor MIRV launch. And so many PSLV launches were completed where the precise injection of multi-sats was discussed. MIRV is same as PSLV launching multi-sats in designated trajectories albeit with tighter precision.

And there is a reason to call it out as IRBM vs ICBM. There is no point in doing hoo-ha about calling it ICBM and indulge in missile polish. We know who the target is and they know on whom it is targeted. And they know that we know that they know and we know that they know. Calling it IRBM vs ICBM is all semantics.

[Cyrano]

Agree 108% !

[Tanaji]

Dr VK Saraswat says it is just a IRBM and not even a ICBM. You cannot have a MIRV test simply successful in the very first attempt. I think India just made a public declaration of her capability. But the maya continues.

Why should it matter if it’s IRBM or ICBM? That’s just nomenclature anyway: the range is what it is. The flight profile should be more than conducive for MIRV deployment.

As for success: it is all maya. We mastered hydrogen bomb in one attempt

[Aditya_V]

Reading the Internet, there seems to 2nd Notam and SFDR was also tested on 11 mar 24, anyone have any info on this?

[williams]

Dr VK Saraswat says it is just a IRBM and not even a ICBM. You cannot have a MIRV test simply successful in the very first attempt. I think India just made a public declaration of her capability. But the maya continues.

Why should it matter if it’s IRBM or ICBM? That’s just nomenclature anyway: the range is what it is. The flight profile should be more than conducive for MIRV deployment.

As for success: it is all maya. We mastered hydrogen bomb in one attempt

That is exactly why the Chins wanted to send their ship to figure out what exactly are the SDREs talking about. SDREs simply welcomed them to see the real thing. This combined with sending another 10k troops into active deployment means, MAD team signaling no tolerance on any smoke and mirror Sun Tzu nonsense in the LAC during this summer that too when crucial elections are going on. In one of the videos I saw, NDTV Pallava Bagla leaking the fact he saw MIRVs in 2016 and were asked not disclose it. My thought is we always had some form of MIRV+MARV tech in our Agni missiles starting from Agni III. It was all camouflaged until today and now we are seeing this missile which is a new one camouflaged as Agni V. Plus God only knows what was that second NOTAM about. Some in the media were speculating about a SLBM test, but nothing happened so far. We live in interesting times to say the least.

[Haridas]

Hat tip to Haridas Ji

- Arun_S

Welcome back Webmaster !!

Morem, Basant, Disha, V_Raman.. Namastey to all bhai log.

Sri Ram sevak, pavan sut Hanuman ki jai,
Jai Bharat, Jai Jawan

Sabb sevak bhai log ki jai.

Circa 2005 that was a good battle with western psyops and arm twisters.

[Haridas]

Arun_S sir, any possibility that you bring back your content on BRF? To this day your work remains only authoritative source of credible information on Indian missile program outside of official channels. I remember to this day that it was first thing that I read on BRF way back early 2000s that piqued my interest in defense related matters and hooked me to BRF ever since. Pls consider it if not too much of effort. None of those feudal personalities are on BRF anymore.

I would be happy to entertain the idea if request comes from BR domain owner Seetal and Jagan to restore the responsibities & the same privileges as before.

[disha]

Morem, Basant, Disha, V_Raman.. Namastey to all bhai log.

many many many Namaste and Pranaams Saar.

Sri Ram sevak, pavan sut Hanuman ki jai,
Jai Bharat, Jai Jawan

Sabb sevak bhai log ki jai.

Circa 2005 that was a good battle with western psyops and arm twisters.

Sir, you are Nala for the above. We are just ordinary squirrels.

It definitely was fun lighting fire under the NNPT/NPA ayotollahs and their baki brethren ...

[chetak]

Why should it matter if it’s IRBM or ICBM? That’s just nomenclature anyway: the range is what it is. The flight profile should be more than conducive for MIRV deployment.

As for success: it is all maya. We mastered hydrogen bomb in one attempt

That is exactly why the Chins wanted to send their ship to figure out what exactly are the SDREs talking about. SDREs simply welcomed them to see the real thing. This combined with sending another 10k troops into active deployment means, MAD team signaling no tolerance on any smoke and mirror Sun Tzu nonsense in the LAC during this summer that too when crucial elections are going on. In one of the videos I saw, NDTV Pallava Bagla leaking the fact he saw MIRVs in 2016 and were asked not disclose it. My thought is we always had some form of MIRV+MARV tech in our Agni missiles starting from Agni III. It was all camouflaged until today and now we are seeing this missile which is a new one camouflaged as Agni V. Plus God only knows what was that second NOTAM about. Some in the media were speculating about a SLBM test, but nothing happened so far. We live in interesting times to say the least.

williams ji,

There are some indications that the Agni 6, a true blue ICBM, is already ready but it is awaiting political orders which may take some time in coming. Obviously that will be MIRVed as well, and with a much longer range

this sob pallava bagla should be blacklisted and booted out.

he appears to be some sort of "connected", congi era, entitled, low IQ buffoon who looks more simian than human

The cheen are truly feeling threatened but are in no position to do anything about it, as their home situation is crumbling all around them and xi is in the cross hairs of his detractors ......

[Prem Kumar]

Why not test Agni-6 with a depressed range and understate it, as usual. Just mention that its payload is 8 tons for 5000 Kms. Everyone who needs to understand will understand what it means

[chetak]

Why not test Agni-6 with a depressed range and understate it, as usual. Just mention that its payload is 8 tons for 5000 Kms. Everyone who needs to understand will understand what it means

what is the need Prem Kumar saar.....

The current one is already very dangerous, it needs only one of the MIRVed heads to punch through their defensive shields and the hans know it only too well...

the japs saw the writing on the wall, when tokyo was bombed for the very first time, and moreover, India may not be the only one that retaliates because the paki factor will come into play for sure because both are एक ही थाली के चट्टे-बट्टे...

[Cyrano]

We should stop seeing only cheen as the enemy. As we grow in stature and reach we will have to protect our energy sources interests far and wide.

For ex. We are increasing our dealings with a bunch of South American countries. In the foreseeable future we will also make some strategic investments there. How can we deter unfriendly regime change attempts if we only focus on IOR?
Bharat should do what it needs to do without being apologetic or underhand about it.

[chetak]

We should stop seeing only cheen as the enemy. As we grow in stature and reach we will have to protect our energy sources interests far and wide.

For ex. We are increasing our dealings with a bunch of South American countries. In the foreseeable future we will also make some strategic investments there. How can we deter unfriendly regime change attempts if we only focus on IOR?
Bharat should do what it needs to do without being apologetic or underhand about it.

Cyrano ji, isn't that exactly why the range is understated, as is the payload

always cheap and best to keep insurance tucked away in the langote

[chetak]

We should stop seeing only cheen as the enemy. As we grow in stature and reach we will have to protect our energy sources interests far and wide.

For ex. We are increasing our dealings with a bunch of South American countries. In the foreseeable future we will also make some strategic investments there. How can we deter unfriendly regime change attempts if we only focus on IOR?
Bharat should do what it needs to do without being apologetic or underhand about it.

Cyrano ji, isn't that exactly why the range is understated, as is the payload

Nothing underhand about it,

Play your cards close to the vest, and remember it's always cheap and best to keep insurance tucked away in the langote

[Lisa]

From 2021

India downplays Agni-V missile range, says China

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/s ... 2012-04-20

[basant]

Morem, Basant, Disha, V_Raman.. Namastey to all bhai log.

Sri Ram sevak, pavan sut Hanuman ki jai,
Jai Bharat, Jai Jawan

Sabb sevak bhai log ki jai.

Circa 2005 that was a good battle with western psyops and arm twisters.

Pranam, Guruvar! It is always a delight to read your posts and I have really enjoyed and learnt a lot during the Arun_S avatar! Hope to learn a lot more from you through the BRF pathashala!

[Ashokk]

Gobartimes tries to put up a brave face

Code: Select all

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202403/1308688.shtml

Indian and Western media rushed to hype that India's move is aimed at increasing nuclear deterrence against "rivals" China and Pakistan, and that it will make China "nervous" and "have no edge" over India.

Whenever India makes military progress, public opinion in India and some major Western countries, which are keen on fanning hostilities between the two Asian powers, immediately hypes that it will make China and Pakistan feel afraid. It is as if the newly added deterrent should be quickly used in India's relations with China and Pakistan. This idea is naive and dangerous.

The attitude of China actively developing friendly relations with India is sincere. And truth be told, China is not very concerned about the improvement of India's military capabilities because this improvement does not constitute a trend of India's military power surpassing China. Liu Zongyi, director of the Center for South Asia Studies at the Shanghai Institutes for International Studies, told the Global Times that there are still huge gaps, even generational gaps, between India and other major powers such as the US, China and Russia in terms of missile capabilities.

And of course some gratuitous advice

We hope India maintains its strategic sobriety amid pride and arrogance brought about by its latest military achievements.

[ramana]

How do you have MIRV on an IRBM?
It would be MRV for IRBM

[williams]

How do you have MIRV on an IRBM?
It would be MRV for IRBM

Very good question. But seems like a culture that our scientists and officials always down play capabilities in public.

[Pratyush]

How do you have MIRV on an IRBM?
It would be MRV for IRBM

During the cold was the USSR also had a 3 MIRV IRBM in the shape of SS20.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/ ... er-rsd-10/

"RSD-10 Pioneer (SS-20)"

[chetak]

vi@shivaroor

[Haridas]

Why not test Agni-6 with a depressed range and understate it, as usual. Just mention that its payload is 8 tons for 5000 Kms. Everyone who needs to understand will understand what it means

Becoz space bbased military sats of chacha can measure its velocity and trajectory end points, hence determine ballistic performance of launcher corresponding to full range ICBM.

Trust you know what full range icbm is.

[SSridhar]

Agni-V, MIRV , and China

[JTull]

<Poof>

Admin Note: Please no doxxing anyone, unless they want to self-identify

[Prem Kumar]

Becoz space bbased military sats of chacha can measure its velocity and trajectory end points, hence determine ballistic performance of launcher corresponding to full range ICBM.

Trust you know what full range icbm is.

Yes and that's precisely the point I am trying to make. Let Unkil's satellites do the math and they will get the message. We will test it to a 6K range with an enhanced payload and call it a "Dharmic Launch targeted at China only"

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/singhshwetabh71/status/17 ... 30069?s=20 ---> Assembly of Akash

[titash]

https://x.com/singhshwetabh71/status/17 ... 30069?s=20 ---> Assembly of Akash

Only 1 Akash seen in the lower right

The others are either Barak-8 or Akash-NG

[andy B]

https://x.com/singhshwetabh71/status/17 ... 30069?s=20 ---> Assembly of Akash

Only 1 Akash seen in the lower right

The others are either Barak-8 or Akash-NG

Sir ji they are all MK1 onlee. If you look closer you can see the four holes where the ramjet inlets are meant to be installed. I also got giddy thinking this is MK2 but I don't think it is

[drnayar]

https://interestingengineering.com/mili ... ot-bombers
China plans 1,240-mile range missile to shoot bombers at unprecedented distance

Wonder if DRDO can take some inspiration from this ?!

My question would be what the challenges for India in developing such a system

[Pratyush]

Target tracking and discrimination. Followed by cost of the missiles.

A weapon with that range only be fractionally cheaper than the target it's trying to destroy.

The only target set worthy of such a weapon is a nuclear armed ICBM Rentry vehicle.

[drnayar]

Target tracking and discrimination. Followed by cost of the missiles.

A weapon with that range only be fractionally cheaper than the target it's trying to destroy.

The only target set worthy of such a weapon is a nuclear armed ICBM Rentry vehicle.

AWACS ;Bombers; Refuelling aircraft ; SIG INT etc as well ..

[Pratyush]

If the target has the situational awareness, then they can escape such weapons.