Project 75I - It Begins

[Pratyush]

Ton for ton of displacement, the Indian SSK is going to be more expensive than the verginia class submarines of the USN. So the argument of costs is not really justified.

The problem is the brass. That is making a complete dog's breakfast of our procurement programs. Consequently our war fighting ability.

In a sane military. The force would have taken 6 Kalvari class as is. Then they would have ordered 6 more with indigenous improvements. Followed by a 100% indigenous submarine by now.

But the brass has no ability to think in these terms.

The same situation applies in terms of aircraft carriers.

[Rakesh]

German Government Throws Weight Behind Indian Navy’s Submarine Deal
https://bharatshakti.in/german-governme ... rine-deal/
10 April 2024

[Pratyush]

German Government Throws Weight Behind Indian Navy’s Submarine Deal
https://bharatshakti.in/german-governme ... rine-deal/
10 April 2024

Now I am well and truly frightened of this program.

We are going to get boats that will not be able to engage any thing.

[Prem Kumar]

Ton for ton of displacement, the Indian SSK is going to be more expensive than the verginia class submarines of the USN. So the argument of costs is not really justified.

The problem is the brass. That is making a complete dog's breakfast of our procurement programs. Consequently our war fighting ability.

In a sane military. The force would have taken 6 Kalvari class as is. Then they would have ordered 6 more with indigenous improvements. Followed by a 100% indigenous submarine by now.

But the brass has no ability to think in these terms.

The same situation applies in terms of aircraft carriers.

Well said Pratyush! The rot, in this case, is squarely with the IN Leadership.

While the IN has, no doubt, been the most Atmanirbhar-friendly of all forces, they have huge blindspots - the submarine program is one of them.

And over the years, they have also started to demonstrate some of the undesirable characteristics (& biases) of the other Arms. And why not? If such behavior goes unpunished & even rewarded, the IN will imbibe the lesson that its ok to take the easy way out, its ok to dip into the gravy train & its ok to have an attitude of "since no one else cares for Atmanirbhar, why should we?"

This is why examples must be made of senior people - publicly. So that others watching will learn the right lessons

[Rakesh]

Stop giving out Scorpene plaques and build more Scorpenes!!!

https://x.com/navalgroup/status/1783397739767706009 ---> We are honoured to welcome General Anil Chauhan, CDS_India (@HQ_IDS_India) and Indian dignitaries at our headquarters in Paris. It was an opportunity to exchange on our long-standing cooperation with the Indian Defence industry in the spirit of Aatmanirbhar Bharat to offer our latest generation of technologies to the Indian Navy.

[R Charan]

P-75I Delays Leave India Vulnerable as Pakistan's Hangor Class Grows

https://defence.in/threads/p-75i-delays ... rows.6100/

[Pratyush]

^^^^

Don't worry.

Its all part of super intellectual plan the brass has come up with.

The capabilities desired by the brass were not available with any in service design in 2014. The South Koreans have developed a new design that has a VLS. Are you not able to see that the Indian program was designed to take SSK tech to the next level. So much so, that the South Koreans are not even in the running right now.

The other boat was one of the Amur Family with VLS. Yet that boat is also not in the running. The DRDO AIP is such a dead end that we know that it cannot be scaled up. Or even further developed to power a different JV project.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1785971031578128695 ---> This is why a AIP based submarine is important. A detailed article on website by 5 p.m.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1785971031578128695 ---> This is why a AIP based submarine is important. A detailed article on website by 5 p.m.

Why Indian Navy needs “AIP based Submarine”
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... ine/?amp=1
02 May 2024

[Adrija]

^^^ still does not answer why we cannot standardize around nuclear SSNs and SSBNs

[Rakesh]

^^^ still does not answer why we cannot standardize around nuclear SSNs and SSBNs

An all SSN fleet is very expensive. It is the most ideal situation, but not enough funds.

Secondly, our SSN program (Project 75 Alpha) is still on the drawing boards. It will be another decade - at minimum - before the first one takes to the water. Once that program gets underway, then the Govt of that time can look at an all SSN fleet. Till that time, AIP powered SSKs will be required.

The SSBN will remain a nuclear powered fleet, as the case is now.

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy begins trials in Rs 60,000 crore tender for 6 advanced submarines
https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 503202534/
03 May 2024

[wig]

India's submarine project battles hurdle amid rising China, Pakistan pressures
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/in ... pressures/
20 May 2024

excerpts

P75(I) has strategic implications, especially considering China's growing submarine presence in the Indian Ocean Region and Pakistan's accelerated acquisition of these warships. The urgency for India to modernise its submarine fleet is evident as its current fleet is ageing and depleting. The Indian Navy's fleet of attack submarinesâ all diesel-powered has come down from 21 in the 1980s to just 16 at present. Only eight are battle-ready at any given time, as half of the fleet undergoes mid-life upgrades and is 30 years old. P75(I)'s success will enhance the India Navy's underwater capabilities and support the country's strategic defence objectives against regional threats.

the future

Naval experts say that at a time China has been frequently deploying its conventional and nuclear submarines in the Indian Ocean Region under the pretext of anti-piracy missions, the Indian Navy's underwater capabilities need to be ramped up urgently. While China, with over 65 submarines, is the biggest threat, even the smaller navy of Pakistan appears to be racing ahead of India with faster acquisitions. Last month, China launched the first of eight Hangor-class submarines for Pakistan's navy at a Wuhan shipyard. The remaining four submarines will be built at Pakistan's Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works Ltd under a transfer-of-technology agreement. The Pakistan Navy plans to add the submarines to its fleet by 2028.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Mark99xm/status/1793151527173099539 ---> China is preparing for a war and meanwhile India has put a submarine acquisition plan on hold to give some foreign company time to develop a tech (that has already been developed in India). Om Shanti.

https://x.com/EkNashwar/status/1792896401254257035 ---> P-75I @indiannavy

[Rakesh]

@Rakesh - I've exactly same thoughts on the P-75I Navantia sub entry.

Our Service Chiefs do give amazing speeches though. See below...

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1793158676020425095 ---> Anytime, Anywhere, Anyhow protect national maritime interests: The new motto of the Indian Navy given by Admiral Dinesh Tripathi.

What a load of horseshit!

The key buzzword in the Anytime, Anywhere, Anyhow mantra is ANYHOW. If YOs and Sailors have to die (due to procurement delays) so be it, but protect the nation at all costs. Who bears responsibility (at Naval HQ or in the GOI) for sending young men and women to their deaths? Not a single Admiral or a Minister will stand before a court. Not a single one. Award a bravery medal to the family, sing National Anthem and then move on.

After the Sindhurakshak explosion on 14 Aug 2013, one YO submariner remarked, "Sir, we sit daily on a ticking time bomb."

[Rakesh]

Meanwhile....

Latest On Indonesia’s Scorpène And Plan To Acquire Four More Submarines
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ubmarines/
19 May 2024

France Offers New ‘Scorpene Evolved’ Li-Ion Submarine To Indonesia
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... indonesia/
13 Oct 2023

[Rakesh]

When Plan A (Project 75I) does not work for whatever reason, where is the back up plan (more Scorpenes)? Key naval acquisition programs suffer from this myopia i.e. aircraft carriers, submarines, torpedoes. I really hope the contract for three additional Scorpene boats are signed soon after the elections.

Indonesia (and even Philippines) are being courted by Naval Group for Scorpenes with lithium ion batteries and F-21 torpedoes. But our bright Admirals at Naval HQ will wait for the mythical P-75I to come. This tamasha has gone on since 2008-09, when the original RFI was issued for the P-75I program. 16 years since that date and still nothing has happened.

Even the Scorpene boats we have in service now do not have modern torpedoes. Our submarine force is in an abysmal state of affairs.

[uddu]

https://idrw.org/bdl-and-drdo-forge-ahe ... velopment/
Takshak Torpedo is ready to be tested from a ship. Meant for submarines and ships. Got better range than Varunastra.
The said video from Bharat Shakti

[JTull]

idrw isn't a reliable source. Let us avoid quoting it.