Bharat Rakshak

Call it a guess ...

Actually the Drdo has put out huge amount of info for the news channels they missed out lot of details which we are trying to garner now. I hope BR brigade does better at the 2007 Aero show in Bangalore. Also I wonder why does not Drdo put this info on its web site so that we can access it??

For once my guess that this system is inspired from S-300V has turned out to be true. It seems like the system it has two missiles compared to M82 and M83 of the system. So I will put the sanction on this project in and around 1996-98. So the programme seems to be pretty old, definitely 8+ years. It may be noted that Israel took around 8-10 tests before the target could be intercepted. So AXO and endo may have also gone through atleast 3-5 test already. That would also indicate the reasons for confidence in Drdo to release so much information quickly. It also seems that endo missile may actually at more advanced stage then the AXO missile and few tests may have happened already.


The endo missile may turn out to be India's area defense SAM, with different variants of booster for different applications.

The indication that radar can track targets at 5km per second would mean that Ballistic missiles with range of 3500km can be tackled at this stage which could improve as we go along.


The AXO missile may have been using the Prithvi liquid stage engine as booster for cost effectiveness (by dismantling old Prithvi missiles) till the electronics are validated. It may require anything upto 10-20 tests so why waste good solid fueled stages, especially when Drdo may not have been confident how many experimental tests would be required. It may have gone upto 40-50 tests like Akash and Trishul. I think the programme progressed faster and better than Drdo expected so that they caught with the booster still being liquid fueled.

Now, is the India Today graphic correct? From the CNN IBN it seems that second stage separates from above the mid body fins (??) Which means almost the whole of Prithvi missile is used as booster without truncating it? This means that second stage with kill vehicle would be around 1200-1500kg. Also the second stage and kill vehicle seems integrated unlike India Today scheme which shows it to be separating stage.


Also we much appreciate that pure KE is only US fascination for THAAD. All other ABM have explosive warheads as back up. Take even the small PAC-3 which has explosive warhead of 73kg though it is termed HTK missiles.

So what is the estimate of average speed of AXO? Around Mach 1? At 110 seconds and 100km slant range with max speed of Mach 5?

So what is the estimate of average speed of target? Around Mach 1? At 200 seconds and 200 km slant range with max speed of Mach 3?

What is the max altitude at which an explosive warhead and RF seeker can be reasonably used? 80km?

What was the closing in speed of AXO and target? Mach 8?

Was it a diving attack profile or catch up with target as it was rising or head on collision? Each of which will have different closing in speed?

It seems that we have source code of radar to modify it ( or we developed it ourselves) which would be a pretty important development in my view?

hi. Following interview of head of DRDO, Dr. Saraswat :

Thus, entire series of Pakistani and Chinese IRBMs may be intercepted by this ABM system.
However, Pakistan may acquire HQ-9 system from China, for interception of Indian ballistic missiles upto Prithvi-II and possibly Prithvi-III.
Thanks.

reference :
http://www.hindu.com/2006/12/03/stories ... 940100.htm

Correct. Only wish the media had broadcast the entire conference.



Similar in some respects, very different in others. For eg, no talk of multiple radars for search, fire control or guidance. The missiles have dedicated RF seekers and dont seem to follow command guidance all the way..

If you are seeking a comparison, dont look towards Russia, look towards Israel and the US. The proposed Indian system is like an Arrow + Patriot combo.




Look at cost also. Prithvis, if we follow Saraswats comment in 2004, come for around 7 crores each, probably the cheapest missile we have in our arsenal. That means the liquid propulsion stage, (the basic Prithvi is one huge propulsion package, plus some electronics (OBC/SINS etc) and a warhead. So DRDO appears to be trying to keep the per unit cost for the PAD missile low.



Its incorrect; there are two stages not three.



Exactly.

Actually the Drdo has put out huge amount of info for the news channels they missed out lot of details which we are trying to garner now. I hope BR brigade does better at the 2007 Aero show in Bangalore. Also I wonder why does not Drdo put this info on its web site so that we can access it??

For once my guess that this system is inspired from S-300V has turned out to be true. It seems like the system it has two missiles compared to M82 and M83 of the system. So I will put the sanction on this project in and around 1996-98. So the programme seems to be pretty old, definitely 8+ years. It may be noted that Israel took around 8-10 tests before the target could be intercepted. So AXO and endo may have also gone through atleast 3-5 test already. That would also indicate the reasons for confidence in Drdo to release so much information quickly. It also seems that endo missile may actually at more advanced stage then the AXO missile and few tests may have happened already.


The endo missile may turn out to be India's area defense SAM, with different variants of booster for different applications.

The indication that radar can track targets at 5km per second would mean that Ballistic missiles with range of 3500km can be tackled at this stage which could improve as we go along.


The AXO missile may have been using the Prithvi liquid stage engine as booster for cost effectiveness (by dismantling old Prithvi missiles) till the electronics are validated. It may require anything upto 10-20 tests so why waste good solid fueled stages, especially when Drdo may not have been confident how many experimental tests would be required. It may have gone upto 40-50 tests like Akash and Trishul. I think the programme progressed faster and better than Drdo expected so that they caught with the booster still being liquid fueled.

Now, is the India Today graphic correct? From the CNN IBN it seems that second stage separates from above the mid body fins (??) Which means almost the whole of Prithvi missile is used as booster without truncating it? This means that second stage with kill vehicle would be around 1200-1500kg. Also the second stage and kill vehicle seems integrated unlike India Today scheme which shows it to be separating stage.


Also we much appreciate that pure KE is only US fascination for THAAD. All other ABM have explosive warheads as back up. Take even the small PAC-3 which has explosive warhead of 73kg though it is termed HTK missiles.

So what is the estimate of average speed of AXO? Around Mach 1? At 110 seconds and 100km slant range with max speed of Mach 5?

So what is the estimate of average speed of target? Around Mach 1? At 200 seconds and 200 km slant range with max speed of Mach 3?

What is the max altitude at which an explosive warhead and RF seeker can be reasonably used? 80km?

What was the closing in speed of AXO and target? Mach 8?

Was it a diving attack profile or catch up with target as it was rising or head on collision? Each of which will have different closing in speed?

It seems that we have source code of radar to modify it ( or we developed it ourselves) which would be a pretty important development in my view?


Reposted as above post was modified

Yes. Variants could be purchased for the IAFs ADGES in the coming years.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/ae ... tviMCC.jpg

The second sensor, is probably the 360 deg. 3D search radar to cue the GreenPine.

The .flv file wasn't playing in (default) app, on further reading I found out that it might have been (On2) encoded, and ended up downloading the IBN-player...

Now, I have ~3 apps to open each file type.

Cheers..

Command guidance loose accuracy rapidly as range inceases. So, you MUST have on board terminal guidance. And as JC pointed out, the missile diagram DOES indicate AESA type seeker. I was referring to This paper.

The number of lines of code is a very inaccurate benchmark. It can be applied only between systems that uses exactly the same HW/DEVEL platforms and libraries. 3 mil is a very impressive number for the kind of platform used for a radar IMO.[/url]

The codelength is not even used as a parameter to judge the effort and time required to develop a software..... most software development efforts estimate the man hours required by the complexity (Order of time due to processing memory/power and number of processors) of an algorithm and the number of independent and dependent Inputs/Outputs

Missile defence test II

[quote]New Delhi, Dec. 3: India will conduct a second missile defence test shortly, following up on the November 27 firing in which it unveiled its own missile defence programme, the director of the project said here yesterday.

The first phase of the missile defence programme will take another three years before missile scientists take a call on inducting the interceptors into the armed forces.

The missile scientist said it would take two batteries of the interceptors to defend New Delhi against a missile threat.

A battery could fire a salvo of four to six interceptors. Few countries have missile defence capabilities of their own and the US, Israel and Russia are still fine-tuning their programmes.

Vijay Kumar Saraswat, chief controller (research and development), Defence Research and Development Organisation, said the November 27 test of an exo-atmospheric missile, which hit a Prithvi missile modified as a target, will be followed up with the development of an “endo-atmosphericâ€

I was thinking that other reason for using liquid stage Prithvi for PAD apart from cost reasons may have been that this programme is pretty old when the solid fueled Prithvi may not have been on the horizon, so that DRDO started of with the liquid staged first stage to be replaced with the solid fueled one with the things worked out with the electronics.

To illustrate this example, Astra seems to have been sanctioned in 1995, with first models appearing in 1998, ground tests in 2003 and full scale developmental R&D sanctioned in 2004.

On this scale I will put the start of development of PAD as far back as 1994-96.

They would move to solid first stage sooner or later , Perhaps its a low risk approach , Test the critical tech and demonstrate the proof of concept for an ABM and then move towards making the system compact and rugged

And don't forget that we have a lot of liquid engines around. They should be used somewhere

Please read Raj Chengappa's article on the Prithvi ABM in the latest India Today.Chengappa has access to excellent authentic sources as we well know. What is very satisfying is the fact that the devlopment of the ABM system has been a dark secret ,in similar fashion with the secrecy surrounding P-2.

Its not just cost. Its development risk minimized (As they are familiar with Prithvi), and secondly manoueverability of the Prithvi, thanks to the gimballed liquid fuelled engines. That will play a crucial role for any interceptor.

I am not so sure regarding the secrecy part. IE blitz just a week prior to launch simply smacks of crude psyops and has unkils signature over it. IE being unkil's lifafa, there is no doubt that unkil was aware something was up at chandipur. Though the exact nature of test might have been secret, the overall theme of the test could not be kept secret.

Now look at the behavior of TSP. They know that we used a long range radar for the test, and since TSP needs to inform India prior to BM test, India was aware of both of TSP's test. The first test TSP might have done for bragging rights. But then even after knowing India has long range tracking radars why did they conduct the second test? Are they so sure that we cannot track at their tests? On the other hand if they knew we could see them naked, are their Nodongs capable of multiple flight profiles? Did their new test execute any of those flight profiles to communicate to us that they are still wearing their undies? The second test was weird. Paki generals are not stupid, they are perfectly rational people who always think of their behinds.

The new LRTR adds another element. India would be stupid not to exploit this LRTR to track and store flight profiles of future no-dongs by TSP. All future tests by TSP will enhance India's understanding of the missiles in addition to depleting TSP's armoury.

Missile shield: experts scour Sanskrit tomes
[quote]From Kalyan Ray DH News Service New Delhi:
After accomplishing a rare feat — taking the first successful step towards having an Indian missile defence shield — defence scientists are now busy in scouring through the pages in Sanskrit tomes.

After accomplishing a rare feat – taking the first successful step towards having an Indian missile defence shield – defence scientists are now busy in scouring through the pages in Sanskrit tomes.

The research was necessary as they have been asked by none other than the President A P J Abdul Kalam – a former missile man – to quickly find out an appropriate name for this nameless wonder that destroyed a dummy enemy missile high up in the sky near Orissa coast last Monday.

Once the development of the missile defence shield is completed in about three years, India will join a select band of countries like the US and Israel that has ballistic anti-missile defence systems with catchy names – Patriot and Arrow respectively. The indigenous system is simply known as Project Advanced Device or PAD. But more tests and research are required. For that scientists are now preparing for a second test for a somewhat similar type brand-new indigenous ballistic anti missile defence system by March 2007.


While the interceptor missile tested on November 27 destroyed the oncoming missile at an altitude of 40 km, in the March test scientists will try out another version that can destroy the enemy missile at an altitude of 20-30 km.

The ballistic anti-missile defence system should be ready for configuration for use by the armed forces after three years for which at least six additional successful tests are required, said Dr V K Saraswat, one of the chief controllers in the DRDO and programme director for the missile defence project. In the successful test a target missile was launched from the interim test range in Chandipur in Orissa and was successfully intercepted mid-air by the new interceptor rocket.

Interestingly the two stage rocket also has a ‘diver thrust’ that gives an additional manoeuvrability to the missile so that the target can be engaged from an alternate angle as well. “One test is not a proof of anything. Multiple flight tests are required for perfecting the system. We are working on this anti-missile project for the last four years and at least minimum six tests are required before the system can be configured for induction,â€

K_Reddy
Only if the missile is ready..the report states 4 months time and Barak-NG is preety much a Navy's initiative for its P-15A destroyers!!

hahaha buddy, Green pine for barak and that too on ships?
you must be kiddin aint ya?

hi. In my view, Barak-II may not be neccessary as indigenous 60km SAM may be developed by incorporating technologies and experience from concluded projects of Trishul, Akash and recently conducted ABM test.

Only auxillary components like sensor technical data may be sourced from Israel.
Thanks.

India expects to use missile interception system as a weapon, top scientist says

^ I can think of only one missile with that quick reaction time.

BRAHMOS

Is that correct ??

Well said JC.. its surely a momentous ocassion for all the steady supporters of DRDO - for those having a more holisitc view & saying "90% full" instead of carping on "10% empty".


But.. really un-holy shit (dung)..

So much happened in 2days?

What a bad time to be away from TV.. i could have captured the CNN IBN bit at hi-res. But doesnt matter - whatever nuggets of info had to be absorbed r there.. thanks to the guys (A Sharma, SunilUpa) who noticed and captured it and posted.. and to DRDO for finally opening the door a bit and letting a peek.. too bad the video frames of schematics miss the thrust & burn time details on right side.. but probably thats something that Arun has on his finger-tips.

Did DRDO pull of a huge rabbit (okay.. two of them) out of its bag or what? If we were over-joyed by one ABM.. here we are looking at two of them..

Can some one confirm that the red-nosed missile we saw towards doesnt look like any foreign missile.. looks like it is the endo-ABM had under-gone some test flight already !!!

though liq-fuel in 1st stage has to be taken care of.. lets not worry about that for the time being.. its a time to celebrate and lets not be finicky..

BTW -- when so much info became available, one should expect a lot of bytes from Arun.. why is he silent..

AI07 is gonna be fun..

Remeber how liquid fuel engine constituency won against solid fuel engine for Prithvi. Hope the same thing does not happen here again.

And you cant even count. It is more like 25 pages kiddo!

My information from my chaiwallha is that -

PAD = Prithvi Air defense (Modified Prithvi)
AAD = Akash Air defense ( Up-ranged Akash)

The project started 5 years back when we didn't even have Barak_1 so speculating that AAD is Barak-II is well oxyM.

Both missile are completely indigenous and derived from existing missile inventory of DRDO

As about name for this system, can't think of anything more suitable than the name - "Bharat-Rakshak"

I'm with Katare on this one! Perfect Name!

Now, chew on this.

The ABM shot down the Prithvi.

What can we do to the Prithvi so that it CANNOT be shot down?

This is what drove the USAF SAM development in the early sixties. Make a bomber to hit a SAM, make a better SAM to hit the bomber.... and back again.

If they can get the two competing groups - BM and ABM to design against each other, we win all the same

The AAD doesn't look anything like an Akash, but has some resemblance to the existing Barak I.

Akash being ram jet based wont really have much performance at endo level. Hence the AAD has a true rocket motor as shown by the cutaway. See the box on RHS. It talks of 9 static firings for the R/M.

JC,

Do you still have the article? If yes, i'm sure BR jingoes would like to see it.

Regards,
CM.

Earlier as statistical analyst now under the cloak of english teacher! Sigh!

Konnichiwa Lkawamoto, Hajimemashite.

Hey, you got me, man. What a wonderful find. I am Chinese. I belong to ding-dong province. I am called as Yu-an-shu ( You want shoe ?) becoz the way i use expletives in duel. Also called as Hit-ua-o (Hit you out) for the way i deal with adversaries and also as Tang-c-Li (Tongue clipper) for clipping the tongue who speaks badhmash! But my original name is Kung-Fu. Satisfied ?!

I am tempted to say as the way Sada used to say in a famous telugu movie. Now, for God sake, pls try to do something useful.

I was earlier joking with ota-ku. Now i am really wondering whether your location is ota-ku or your action too!

If you are wondering want I mean by ota-ku, then from Urban dictionary ota-ku means "Usually an otaku person has nothing better to do with their life so they pass the time by watching anime, playing videogames, surfing the internet."

Sayounora!

good idea.. host it in the BR/links. we all know, who reads what.

How could you guys miss this

The missile test was carried out without using any warheads -- in both the target and the interceptor missile.

So it was HTK interception, even though the missiles may have additional ability to carry explosive warheads

Raj, The initial talk was about some proximity fuzes. Now this hint of HTK. The target missile did get destroyed. What did it in? Collision at high speed or explosion by a warhead?

Excellent news, it may be the ground mock up of very own sagarika the SLBM version SLCM will be 1500 kms (700 nautical miles).

Makes me wonder what will be the range of Sagarika SLBM, anyways SLCM is needed more than SLBM.
A long range SLCM is threatning to any surface ships except latest DDX.

Since the Target was not in space , Most likely it would be a HTK system where the 3rd stage or HTK hits the Target at very high speed and the KE does its job , Additionally they can also carry warhed like in Patriot PAC-3 which is a HTK system with warhead.