Religion Thread 3

[Dharmavir]

More evidence:

NSCN and National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) under the leadership of Bishwamohan Debbarma promoted Christian terrorism. NSCN and NLFT worked for forcible conversion to Christianity. These outfits were responsible for the religious oppression of the Hindus and Buddhists in Arunachal Pradesh and Tripura respectively. Jamatiya Hoda and its leaders, to a large extent, were able to control NLFT run religious terrorism. NSCN’s religious terrorism continued unabated.

http://www.asthabharati.org/Dia_Oct06/b.b.kum.htm

Significantly , most of the leaders and cadres of NLFT are Baptist Christians and unless one converts to the Baptist variety of the faith no cadre or activist is given arms or training. The NLFT have also been regularly interfering with threligious faith and practices of the Hindu tribals and non-tribals and converting people at gun-point.On the contrary A.T.T.F.'s political demand is deportation of all non-tribals who settled down in Tripura after 1951. This outfit does not interfere with religious affairs of people despite the horrendous cruelties they have been perpetrating on non-tribal Bengalis.

http://tripurainfo.com/insurgency/sekhar3.shtml

The most prominent among the terrorist outfits of Tripura is the NLFT (National Liberation Front of Tripura). It employs terror tactics to effect mass conversion to Christianity (The Statesman 1999, 2000; Ghosh 1999) and is a predominantly Baptist (Protestant) organisation. Whatever token non-Christian representation it had, it has lost recently. Nayanbashi Jamatiya, a Hindu leader, led a revolt against the policy of forcible conversion of the NLFT and left a rebel camp in neighbouring Bangladesh with his followers. On April 8, 2001, while his party was moving towards the Indian border, it was attacked by the main group; seven activists were killed and he himself was seriously injured and taken to a government hospital in Bangladesh. (The Statesman 2001a, 2001b).
¨
The sectarian nature of the Baptist terrorists has come to the fore. They killed a Catholic priest called Father Victor Crasta on July 25, 2000. In protest the Catholic Church of Tripura called a bandh (closure) in all Catholic run institutions on August 10, 2000. (The Telegraph 2000)

On August 6, 1999, four RSS (Rashtriya Swayam-sevak Sangh) workers of Tripura, named Shyamal Kanti Sen Gupta, Sudhamoy Dutta, Dinendranath Dey, Shubhankar Chakraborti, were kidnapped by the NLFT, taken to a camp in the jungles of Bangladesh and a ransom of Rs 2 crores was demanded from their parent organisation. The RSS refused to pay and they were done to death sometime in the month of December 2000 or January 2001. The news of their killing was confirmed by the Central Government in July 2001 and carried by all prominent national dailies. Their "guilt" was that they were preaching among the tribals to preserve Hinduism. Our Consti-tution permits propagation of a faith by legitimate means. If that is so then work for the preservation of a faith too is surely permissible. However, the kidnap and murder of these Hindu pracharaks of the RSS by Christian terrorists did not create a media sensation. This is not the first time that a Hindu preacher has been attacked in North-East India. I found reference to such an event in a most unlikely place albeit most authentic. Swami Gokulananda (1999), the present head of the Ramakrishna Mission Ashrama of New Delhi, has written that he had been the Secretary of the Khasi Hills Ashrama in Meghalaya in the 1980s. He futher writes:

The hostile forces were against our movement as it was trying to bring back the lost tradition of faith among the people of the Khasi hills. Since it was like a speed breaker in their path they wanted to remove me. One day a time bomb was planted in my room but they did not succeed in killing me.

It should be noted that the most dominant church in the Khasi hills is Presbyterian (Protestant) which is based in the UK. Christian terrorists have been active in various States of North-East India for a long time. Recently they have spread to North Bengal also. Reverend John Thwaites, a Protestant priest who had been in North Bengal for over three decades, was asked to leave the country in January 2001. No reason was given and he defied the order. The West Bengal Government quietly arrested and prosecuted him. There were demonstrations by his sympathisers during the trial which ended in August 2001. The judge sentenced him to three months simple imprisonment following which he was to be deported to his native land of the United Kingdom. Is there a link between the Protestant priest and the terrorist activities of the Kamtapuri separatists? The question is pertinent because just prior to the "quit India" order served on Reverend Thwaites (January 2001), the Kamtapuri terrorists had killed eight CPI-M activists including a District Committee member in the four-month span from August to November 2000. The West Bengal State Government has the answer to this question. They have not made public way the Reverend was asked to leave the country in the first place and the BJP-led government at the Centre has played ball the way the State Government wanted.

http://www.freeindiamedia.com/current_a ... ffairs.htm

Police in the northeastern Indian state of Tripura say a leading Hindu religious leader, who was kidnapped by suspected separatist rebels on Monday, has been found dead.
Police say the body of the man, Labh Kumar Jamatia, was discovered in a forest in Dalak village in southern Tripura.

He was the leader of the state's second largest Hindu group.

The spritual chief of his tribe Bikram Bhadur Jamatia has called on the Indian police to provide protection for Hindu tribal leaders in Tripura.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1089578.stm

Hindu preacher killed by Tripura rebels

A tribal Hindu spiritual leader has been killed by separatist rebels in the northeastern Indian state of Tripura.

Police say about ten guerrillas belonging to the outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura ,the NLFT, broke into a temple near the town of Jirania on Sunday night and shot dead Shanti Tripura, a popular Hindu preacher popularly known as Shanti Kali.

The separatist group says it wants to convert all tribespeople in the state to Christianity.

The BBC correspondent in the region says the killing has created tension between the majority of tribals, who are Hindu or Buddhist, and the small number of Christian converts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/899422.stm

Split


The NLFT split into two groups, one headed by Biswamohan Debbarma and the other by Nayanbasi Jamatiya, in February 2001. Following the expulsion of Nayanbasi Jamatiya and Joshua Debbarma from the NLFT, nearly 125 cadres of the group formed a parallel outfit under the leadership of Nayanbasi Jamatiya. Police records based on interrogation reports of surrendered/arrested cadres reveal that the split occurred as a result of:


Reluctance of the Central Executive Committee of NLFT led by Biswamohan Debbarma to nominate Joshua Debbarma as the King of ‘Tripura Kingdom’;


Misappropriation of funds by senior leaders;


Lavish lifestyles led by the senior leadership; and


Forcible conversion of tribal cadres/civilians to Christianity.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... s/NLFT.HTM

[Dharmavir]

Portuguese didn't spare the Christians of south India too. Read up on something called the oath of the broken cross where the native christians rebelled against the Portuguese.

Well the native Christians also went over to Vasco Da Gama and swore loyalty to him, but they didn't realise once they did their job against Hindus and Muslims the Portuguese will also come after them.

[S.Valkan]

Valkan

all good in theory, but why is this not being practiced? and whose fault is it?

Why it is not being practised is a loaded question.

Imagine the agrarian society of India for the last 3000 years, all centered around a tiny village.

Each village had to have specialised division of labour for synergy.

There needed to be - in addition to farm labour - some priest, blacksmith, goldsmith, fisherman and many other smiths and crafts for a smooth 'silo' life in village 'communes'.

Now, if you were a blacksmith, chances are that one or more of your sons - by birth - would be ideal candidates for apprentice-ship of the craft in that village.

Throughout the world, this has always been the trend until the industrial revolution,- it keeps the business IN the family, and it ensures a financial safety net for the family members.

Obviously, this "jati" system gets codified in reality at the level of each commune, and over time, the "varna" system of propensity and inclination loses practical significance.

Hence, after several millenia, the "theory" diverges from practice.

Now, for the question "whose fault is it ?"

Is it the fault of the "scriptures" ? No.

Is it the fault of the established lifestyle of the agrarian system ? Maybe.

For nomads and hunter-gatherers, this generational specialization for harmonious inter-dependent functioning of the organic whole is not important.

Grazing sheep, hunting in groups for wild boars and deer, plucking fruits and berries, and scrounging of roots and tubers are easily learnable skills.

Not so for the delicate crafts like smelting, moulding, filing, carving, or specialised skills like formulating herbal medicines, propitiating the gods with accurate hymnal chants, etc.

So, blame the fertile alluvial soils of India, if you must.

Shouldnt there be Evanje-hindus going out and telling the suppressed casts that they can become brahmins or (chosse your own) overnight?

If I tell a non-matriculate village idiot that he can become a nuclear scientist overnight, what difference will that make ?

The bigger question is WHY do they want to become Brahmins in the first place ?

If it is about social recognition and "status" ( obviously there is no monetary benefits to being a Brahmin ), then the question pertains to WHAT that social "status" is REALLY about.

Therein comes the point about the historic Indian reverence for the learned and intellectual people.

There is a lot of modern talk about "dignity of labour", but we can clearly see that "value addition" due to education and intellectual prowess is amply rewarded by society.

Why not then inform them the raison d'etre of the "status" of Brahmins, and how even THEY can attain the status by beating the Brahmins at their own turf,- by excelling in education and attaining the knowledge of Brahman ?

[Raju]

Portuguese didn't spare the Christians of south India too. Read up on something called the oath of the broken cross where the native christians rebelled against the Portuguese.

Well the native Christians also went over to Vasco Da Gama and swore loyalty to him, but they didn't realise once they did their job against Hindus and Muslims the Portuguese will also come after them.

Apparently all of them didn't go over to the Portuguese side and thus the division. The ones who went over to the Portuguese side became Catholics. The rest remained Jacobites/Orthodox etc. The Portuguese ire was against the latter and not the Catholics. But the Jacobite/Orthodox community is still the majority.

[Alok_N]

Why not then inform them the raison d'etre of the "status" of Brahmins, and how even THEY can attain the status by beating the Brahmins at their own turf,- by excelling in education and attaining the knowledge of Brahman ?

Bingo! ... in the modern context, they need to be informed that "science will set them free" of all baggage, including caste ...

so, it really boils down to universal education, something that is actively being pursued ... plus, the quota system is accelerating the creation of new brahmins from the non-brahmin castes ...

creation of schools in districts targetted by EJ should be done on a war-footing ... otherwise, all this talk of $200B reserve is pointless ...

[Dharmavir]

More evidence:

Indian Villagers Pledge To Fight Extortion By Christian Separatists
Author:
Publication: Agence France Presse
Date: December 31, 2002

Hindu villagers in India's restive northeastern state of Tripura have pledged to fight alleged extortion demands by a Christian separatist group, community leaders said. Militants of the outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) have served extortion notices to hundreds of Hindu tribals and threatened them with death if they do not pay up. "The demand notes were served only to tribal Hindu villagers with warnings of capital punishment to those who violated their diktat," said Aswathama Jamatia, head priest of the Jamatia Hoda, an influential tribal Hindu group. Police have confirmed the extortion demands by the NLFT, which is a predominantly Christian group fighting for an independent tribal homeland. Community leaders say the NLFT has demanded three percent of the annual earnings of all government employees as tax, besides charging anything between US$40.00 to $90.00 from farmers and businessmen. Tribal Hindus also accuse the NLFT of converting people to Christianity at gunpoint.

http://www.hvk.org//articles/0103/355.html

Tripura CPM accuses church of nexus with NSCN-IM, NLFT; blasts Sonia

From our Correspondent
AGARTALA, March 18: The ruling CPI(M) in Tripura is worried over the nexus
between a section of the church and militant organizations in the north-eastern
region. The party has brought serious charges against the churches working in
the region.

In the political and organizational report adopted in the Tripura State
conference of the party held recently, the CPI(M) said in no uncertain terms: "A
section of the church is abating insurgents. Some churches are even being used
by the insurgents as shelters." The party has identified at least a church whose
leaders are accused of working as liaison among various insurgent outfits active
in the region. "The leaders of the north-eastern branch of Evangelical Church
(Baptist) are maintaining links with militant outfits of the region, specially
the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (IM) and the National Liberation
Front of Tripura. They are even having links with the notorious CIA and the
ISI," the report said.

In its brief reference on Muslim fundamentalist forces, the report has said that
Muslim fundamentalists are active in Dharmanagar, Sonamura and some other parts
in the State. The report has further said that these forces have stepped up
their activities after the change of guard in Bangladesh.

On the Hindu fundamentalist forces, the report has said that though these forces
are active in the State, they have failed to make any headway. The Hindu
fundamentalist forces got a boost after the formation of the BJP-led coalition
at the Centre, the report has said, adding that some Hindu fundamentalist
organizations like the VHP and Vanabashi Kalyan Ashram are trying to expand
their activities among the tribals, tea garden workers, employees, women and
students. The report has further said that several Union Ministers visited the
State to expand the activities of Hindu groups, but failed to make much headway
due to sustained campaign by CPI(M) cadres.

The report has also not taken kindly to AICC president Sonia Gandhi's meeting
with the leaders of the Indigenous People's Front of Tripura (IPFT), which,
according to the CPI(M), is the fountain head of the NLFT. The report has even
gone to the extent of equating the Congress with the Amra Bangali, an outfit run
by the Ananda Margis.

Tribals unite against conversions in Tripura
Syed Zarir Hussain

Tribal Hindus in Tripura have formed vigilante groups to thwart attempts by separatist militants to convert people to Christianity at gunpoint, community leaders said on Thursday.

"It is a very serious threat to Hinduism with armed militants of the outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura forcibly converting tribal villagers to Christianity," said Rampada Jamatia, a leader of the Jamatia tribe.

"We believe up to 5,000 tribal villagers were converted to Christianity by the NLFT in the past two years," Jamatia told IANS in Jirania, 25 km east of Agartala.

At least 20 Hindu tribals, including a senior priest of the Jirania Ashram, Santi Kali Maharaj, have been killed by NLFT rebels in the past two years for disobeying orders.

Tribals constitute about 30 per cent of Tripura's population of 3.19 million. Christians form a meager 10 per cent of the total, while the majority are Hindus.

Community chiefs and religious heads of 19 tribes, who met recently, have now formed the Tribal Culture Protection Committee to counter the threat posed by the NLFT.

"The forum would discuss ways and means to tackle the threat to our religion and culture," Bikram Bahadur Jamatia, a tribal chieftain said.

The NLFT, fighting for an independent tribal homeland since 1989, has issued diktats asking Hindu villagers against celebrating religious festivals.

"The NLFT has been trying to foment sectarian tension between the tribal and non-tribal population in Tripura, a trend that has serious implications," a senior police officer said.

Church leaders, however, deny any forcible conversions in Tripura.

"In fact, a number of our priests and missionaries have been the target of attacks by unidentified miscreants over the past couple of years," a senior priest of the Roman Catholic church in Tripura said.

"We cannot, however, vouch on behalf of the NLFT which is a rebel group."

Insurgency in Tripura can be traced to the massive influx of Bengali-speaking refugees from east Pakistan following the Partition in 1947.

The tribals, who accounted for 95 per cent of the population of Tripura in the 1931 census, have now been reduced to a mere 30 per cent.

"This change in the demographic pattern has led to serious discontent among the tribals," Bijoy Hrangkhawl, former chief of the separatist Tripura National Volunteers told IANS.

Radical Hindu religious groups in the region have all along been accusing Christian missionaries of forceful conversions.

Indo-Asian News Service

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/aug/02trip.htm

[Dharmavir]

[quote]Tripura rebels ban Kirtan Instruments
Author:
Publication: The Telegraph
Date: April 1, 2001

After lying low for sometime, NLFT militants have started interfering in the traditional religious rites of the people.

The Church-backed militants have banned the use of traditional musical instruments for performing kirtans (devotional songs) by Hindu tribals.

In pamphlets distributed among the Hindu tribals, NLFT marauders warned against the use of traditional musical instruments.

The fiat has triggered panic among the Hindu tribals living in the interior areas like Borakha, Patni, Barkathal and Sonai in Sadar subdivision. Sources in the Sanatan Dharma Parishad said there are seven Hindu tribal groups, which perform kirtans with traditional musical instruments.

Over the past five years, the NLFT has been consistently attacking and killing Hindu tribals and forcing them to convert to Christianity at gunpoint. During this period, altogether 35 Hindu tribals, including leading Hindu tribal saint “Shanti Kali Maharajâ€

[SaiK]

Raju, regarding the stabbing of a christian in God's own country, any further information available to "religious intolerance"?? which state tops religious hatred in our country? is it Kerala?

also goes to prove education and faith has no positive social influence to ward off criminal minds.

---

Alok,

New Rule:

"Get away from Govt. Quota System, Become Brahmin!"

[disha]

It will be OT to discuss the history in this thread ...

I don't see why it would be OT ... if you write informative posts about history, at least some of us will benefit ... I really don't know anything about Daman and Diu ... are thery still "special territories"?

In my opinion, the discourse on religion on this thread was going on well and I have learned a lot. History, even if it is a religious history and any arguments/counter-arguments on it do not belong to this thread if it derails it.

But again, I am just a puny in company of Bradmins and will leave it up to their hands on what they want in or out.

Since you expressed an interest, and if we can have a power point of history:

1. Diu and Daman are still "union territories", they are very tiny to form a state.

2. Diu was the entry point of trade into and out of Saurashtra and Kutch over sea. The other entry points were Bhavnagar, Daman and Surat. Bhavnagar and Surat were the biggest and the richest. Surat was the larget of all three.

3. Controlling this entry points meant that one will be controlling the trade over the arabian sea all the way till you reach the Konkans and then on to Calicut. Of course, with that you will control vast amounts of wealth just based on the toll tax.

4. Once the europeans found a sea route to India, their next goal was to control those points. And thus we had:

The Battle of Diu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Diu_%281509%29

However, the portugeuse brought with them a very virulent form of christianity. They were the jehadis of their time. Probably trying to prove more x-tian than the roman x-tian, or probably trying to curry favor with vatican. We had Portuguese characters like:

Alfonso de Albuquerque - who ordered the slaughter of all the Hindu and Muslim population in an hoping that it would force Hindus and Muslims to convert to Christianity.

[BTW, our Alfonso mango is named after that tyrant!]

[SaiK]

etymology q? did "Haapus" came earlier than Alphonso?, where he could not pronounce the word, and claimed a right over it?

OT (food and wine), i am salivating.

[Ananth]

All the atrocities of christians against Hindus seems to converge upon Portugese plundering Goa and western coast. The evidence posted on this thread seem to indicate that forced conversion and violence by a section of christians were not just in distant past, but we are bearing their burnt today also.

But Portugese were not the only Christians in India. Brits, and to some smaller extent French and Dutch also had presence in India. Atrocities by Brits are classified under struggle for freedom and intolerance of Brits was always seen through the prism of freedom struggle.

Are the Brits so devoid of proselytization zeal, that only economic expolitation interested them? Aren't they equally bent upon converting natives as Portugese, which was one of main factors of first war of independence. We also seem to give weightage to physical pain like slavery and forced conversion by sword. What about mental slavery that Brits have been so successful in indoctrinating India?

Bottomline is that, instead of always zeroing in on Portugese as bad boys of Christian onslaught on India, we also got to see other forms of subjugation.

Why is that important? As someone in previous avatar of this thread stated, an evangelical can be dealt with an ease. But sophistication subjugation is much harder to detect and defeat. As Calvin states this forum is "elitist", hence we need to focus the attention on "elitist" ways on subjugation.

[Raju]

>>regarding the stabbing of a christian in God's own country, any further information available to "religious intolerance"?? which state tops religious hatred in our country? is it Kerala?

SaiK, minor skirmishes always go on 'both ways' all the time, afterall the ancient & proud state of Travancore has to maintain and sharpen its martial edge. I am not aware of any stats that give the 'bigger picture' though.

[Rony]

Well the native Christians also went over to Vasco Da Gama and swore loyalty to him, but they didn't realise once they did their job against Hindus and Muslims the Portuguese will also come after them.

Apparently all of them didn't go over to the Portuguese side and thus the division. The ones who went over to the Portuguese side became Catholics. The rest remained Jacobites/Orthodox etc. The Portuguese ire was against the latter and not the Catholics. But the Jacobite/Orthodox community is still the majority.

Isnt 70% of Indian christians roman catholics ?.Another point till now the the Indian christians never disowned the mass murderer xavier who forcibly converted many people at sword.the undecayed body of francis xavier is still on public view in a glass coffin at the basilica of bom Jesus in goa and is reveared.not very different from islamist reverance of ghori and ghaznavi .The more we go into this topic,the more it becomes apparant that evanjihadis are the xerox copy of jihadis.

[disha]

Bottomline is that, instead of always zeroing in on Portugese as bad boys of Christian onslaught on India, we also got to see other forms of subjugation.

Portuguese represent a more physical and cruder form of subjugation. Not unlike the current subjugation by the mullahs in some countries. At the same time it is an easier example to give about the subjugation. At the same time, there is enough physical evidence for the Vatican to come out and apoligize, since under their sanction the subjugation was done. However, if they do that, their whole moral edifice will collapse.

By the the time the British came to the centre stage, they refined their subjugation to less physical. This is not to deny that they were not subjugating, they were and are still.

[disha]

And building on the previous post, one way to combat a particular religion is to put that religion on defensive. Hence the deliberate confusion about the ills in the Indian society with the Hindu religion.

Similarly, if the Vatican can be made to apologize on hard facts of past subjugation that will put a lid on the current day evanjehadis. It will also drive a schism across them. Heck in the name of "God", they did stop free thinking for almost a millennium.

[svinayak]

This is for those Doubting Thomas who are sceptical towards main stream Christians...

73 per cent Indian Christians say they're proud to be Indians

Nearly two-thirds of all Indians are fiercely proud of 'Mera Bharat Mahaan' but more than half of India believes the caste system is a "barrier to social harmony" and is holding the country back, according to a BBC poll published recently.

I don't think people here doubt the Indian mainstream Christians.

The higher percentage for Christians reflects the confidence and identity of Indian Christians in India. It shows that they don't feel persecuted or discriminated contrary to psec media in the 90s.

Code: Select all

[Dharmavir]

But Portugese were not the only Christians in India. Brits, and to some smaller extent French and Dutch also had presence in India. Atrocities by Brits are classified under struggle for freedom and intolerance of Brits was always seen through the prism of freedom struggle.

Are the Brits so devoid of proselytization zeal, that only economic expolitation interested them? Aren't they equally bent upon converting natives as Portugese, which was one of main factors of first war of independence. We also seem to give weightage to physical pain like slavery and forced conversion by sword. What about mental slavery that Brits have been so successful in indoctrinating India?

The Brits and French were no less zealous but they were more pragmatic and cunning, the French showed their fanaticism in areas they controlled such as Pondicherry. This link gives more info:

“Then Father Coeurdoux of Karikal came with a great hammer, kicked the lingam, broke it with his hammer, and ordered the Coffrees and the Europeans to break the images of Vishnu and the other gods. Madame went and told the priest that he might break the idols as he pleased. He answered that she had accomplished what had been impossible for fifty years, that she must be one of those Mahatmas who established this religion [Christianity] in old days, and that he would publish her fame throughout the world. So saying he dismissed them.

“Then Varlam also kicked the great lingam nine or ten times with his sandals in the presence of Madame and priest, and spat on it, out of gladness, and hoping that the priest and Madame would regard him also as a Mahatma. Then he followed Madame. I can neither write nor describe what abominations were done in the temple. I know not what fruit they will reap. All the Tamils think that the end of the world has come. The priests, the Tamil Christians, the Governor and his wife are more delighted than they have ever been before, but they have not yet considered what will befall them infuture.â€

[svinayak]

One of the main reasons for the 1857 revolt was the widespread conversions to Christianity.

Perhaps India is the only country that has roads and districts named after criminals like Aurangzeb, imagine Israel allowing roads to be named after Hitler.

It's also interesting to note that we have Hindus asking if Christians ever instigated massacres against Hindus, but in my entire life I have never heard of a Jewish person asking "Did the Nazis ever instigate massacres against Jews", shows what wonderful job we have done in teaching truthful history in India.

Ignorance is the main problem of Hindus

[ramana]

Look like the coins issue is real
V. Sundaram's comments on the new coins

How come there are no questions in the Lok Sabha?

[S.Valkan]

one way to combat a particular religion is to put that religion on defensive.

Who are you planning on combatting ?

Unscrupulous foreign evangelists with an agenda, or the Christian religion followed by millions of fellow Indians ?

Similarly, if the Vatican can be made to apologize on hard facts of past subjugation that will put a lid on the current day evanjehadis.

Quite the contrary.

The Vatican/Catholic missionaries are poles apart from the evanjihadi charlatans of virulent literalist Protestant strains like the Southern Baptists, who hate the Vatican a whole lot more than you do.

[Kumar]

Valkan,

Re: Vatican:

Why does India need to maintain "diplomatic relations" with the vatican? If christian countries want to play this pretend-game then its their privilege. Whys should India also join in pretending that Vatiocan is a real country?

IMHO, it gives an undue weightage to catholic christianity in a secular nation. Why not have similar official level ambassodorial relationship with the Shankaracharyas?

[disha]

one way to combat a particular religion is to put that religion on defensive.

What I meant was what the evanjehadists do to "combat" Hindu religion.

Please read the above along with the next part:

Hence the deliberate confusion about the ills in the Indian society with the Hindu religion.

[Sadler]

I think I have provided enough links so now I will stop or maybe all these links are also a big conspiracy by the Hindu fanatics.

Excellent job. When i first posted that christian terrorists in India's northeast were terrorizing hindus, and that the rapidity with which india's northeast had been christianized, i was greeted with insults and contempt by one person. No need to name him. And no real reason to investigate his/her putative agenda either. That is not the purpose with which i post.

There is nothing you can do to "convince" such folks. Mind you, it is not that they are unaware of such happenings. But choose, for whatever reason, to remain blissfully ignorant.

The main reason you should post (and i continue posting) it to expose those that are truly ignorant of such happenings. And inevitably, in such exchanges, the true colors of the naysayers come to fore.

So, to heck with those invoking a hindu conspiracy. Chances are they know the truth and for their own petty agenda pretend to ignore otherwise. your job (For the lack of a better word) and mine is to expose such wrong-doings to the ones that truly do not know. To expose the inherent bigotry and intolerance in the acts of such terrorists, whether inspired by mohammad or jesus, to the general populace of BRF. And hopefully, there are enough people using this information and spreading it around. Truth ROCKS.

[svinayak]

Why does India need to maintain "diplomatic relations" with the vatican? If christian countries want to play this pretend-game then its their privilege. Whys should India also join in pretending that Vatiocan is a real country?

IMHO, it gives an undue weightage to catholic christianity in a secular nation. Why not have similar official level ambassodorial relationship with the Shankaracharyas?

I have a post in page 2 in this thread. Read it for your answer. Vatican is a geopolitical player and state build relationship with them.

[JE Menon]

>>This is for those Doubting Thomas who are sceptical towards main stream Christians...

That is a canard, and not at all what the discussion is about. Plenty of Christians and Muslims in India live their lives without feeling the urge to convert their fellow citizens who may not be of their religious persuasion - or if they do suppressing that desire in the interest of common decency. And that is fine.

As has been made abundantly clear in post after post, it is not the belief of the Christians that is being challenged. Everyone is free to believe... Rather, it is the impulse of the Christians or anybody else, be they mainstream or otherwise, to undermine that freedom by suggesting that one unsubstantiatable belief set is "better" than another. I mean you show me someone who has six arms and ten heads, and I'll show you someone who can rise from the dead...

What I personally find most abhorrent is how an individual can summarily dismiss the belief system of another human as beneath contempt, most likely with little or no knowledge of that system.

If a shemale turned up outside your door tomorrow claiming itself to be God, what kind of proof would one require?

[Sadler]

The Vatican/Catholic missionaries are poles apart from the evanjihadi charlatans of virulent literalist Protestant strains like the Southern Baptists, who hate the Vatican a whole lot more than you do.

I respectfully disagree. I think the vatican/catholics are as bad. Except they are able to able to mask their agenda a whole lot better. Dont forget that the catholic church is perhaps the greatest force for evil that this planet has known for the longest period of time. Pol Pots come and go; the vatican has displayed amazing staying power.

While it may be easy to be taken it by the likes of ratzinger and his predecessor karol wojtyla, dont forget one thing that i hope will convince you that the vatican is still the dominant evil it once was and has always been.

the vatican, and the likes or ratzinger and wojtyla, have NEVER apologized for the atrocities of the church in the indian inquisition that i believe was conducted by portuguese catholics. Note that the vatican/wojtyla did apologise to christian victims of the inquisitions conducted before and after the indian inquisition.

WHY? Because the victims were, and their descendants, are a bunch of brown skinned heathen savage gooks? there is no force on earth, not even islam, that has such contempt for the hindu as the vatican/wojtyla/ratzinger cabal.

[Rony]

Pol Pots come and go; the vatican has displayed amazing staying power.

Another gem from BR !

[SaiK]

...I mean you show me someone who has six arms and ten heads, and I'll show you someone who can rise from the dead...

I can show you a latest one in 18/19th century resurrection stories of shirdi sai baba!~. now who is better Christ or Shirdi ji?

[Kumar]

Why does India need to maintain "diplomatic relations" with the vatican? If christian countries want to play this pretend-game then its their privilege. Whys should India also join in pretending that Vatiocan is a real country?

IMHO, it gives an undue weightage to catholic christianity in a secular nation. Why not have similar official level ambassodorial relationship with the Shankaracharyas?

I have a post in page 2 in this thread. Read it for your answer. Vatican is a geopolitical player and state build relationship with them.

Acharya,
I couldn't find your post. Could you quote from that post?

Anyway, it is obvious that Vatican is a big geopolitical player. But what advantages does India get by having diplomatic relationships with it?
China and Islamic countries happily do without having a diplomatic relationship with the Vatican.

[disha]

The Vatican/Catholic missionaries are poles apart from the evanjihadi charlatans of virulent literalist Protestant strains like the Southern Baptists, who hate the Vatican a whole lot more than you do.

I do not hate the Vatican and neither the various virulent protestant strains.. When did I say I do? I just discussed a possibility of making the vatican apologize, as a start.

I just wish that they see light and may the true light of knowledge as possessed by our seers and embodied in the sanatana dharma illuminate their souls for salvation!

In that sense, the only and true feeling for them from my personal end [since you have called my feelings in my questions and I have to respond] is that of despair, since I do want to see their souls saved by the one true light of the sanatana dharma.

So coming back, in my mind, if the vatican apologizes that will be a start of them seeing the light. As for the southern baptists, they are a bunch of rabble rousers and should be treated as such.

[svinayak]

The principle character of early Christianity is a very fundamental transformation. It transformed from being exactly an intra-Jewish reform movement into an official state religion of the Roman Empire, and later into a world view. But underlying this phenomenonal growth were two critical paradigm shifts. The first was a radical change in Christianity: the figure of Jesus was relegated into a abstract background and that of Paul would take its place, resulting in a completely new version of Christianity. The second, perhaps of far more serious geo-politcal impact, was the opening up of this new "Pauline" Christianity to non-Jews. Here shall discuss these two issues here. First shall outline the rise of Pauline Christian theology. This will be followed by patterns of early Christian evangelism. The latter would set the stage for the Christian takeover of Rome.

The church would now effectively break: into the church of Jerusalem under James (brother of Jesus) and the church of Paul. The former would soon die out, the latter would survive. James would be stoned to death in 62 AD, and in 70 AD Jerusalem would be destroyed by the Romans. The followers of the physical Jesus broke into splinter groups and finally vanished. The last reference to them in history was early in the 4th century AD when a group of descendants of Jesus’ family visited Rome and asked the pope to recognize them as bishops in their area of the near east, because of their relation to Jesus: "In our churches only those of his family have held authority, from the time of his brothers James and Simeon. We are willing to recognize your authority as pope. Recognize our authority as belonging to his family". The pope refused (had he agreed, he would have lost guardianship of the Church). The group went into the background and it is likely that subsequent events of geopolitics could be traced to having some roots to this rejection.

The most important figure responsible for this transformation was Paul of Tarsus (earlier Saul of Tarsus, in today's Turkey). He claimed to be an orthodox Jew, a Pharisee (although this claim is doubted). There are also other opinions that he was not born a Jew, but converted to one for political reasons. He was raised in a Greek culture, and was formerly an enemy of Christianity to which he converted in 34 or 35 AD. Before his conversion, he was used as a spy and thug by the Sadduccees in their political intrigues, to report on and arrest early Christians and also against the Pharisees. He was being used by the Romans in a similar role. Paul never actually met Jesus, he claimed visions of Jesus which he used to create a new mystery cult, as it were. Although Jesus may be a central core of Christianity, it was Paul who provided the cosmic explanations surrounding him and tried to fit Jesus into a grand scheme of god.

Christianity would now break from the teachings of Jesus, into Christianity as the teachings of Paul and approximately as known in the New Testament today. This break was not a clean one. Paul laid claims to revelations and visions, and claimed to have understood the real Jesus in all his splendour. It is speculated that Paul had a severe mental conflict between his failed hopes of religious greatness and the vileness of his career as a spy and hired thug. This eventually caused a psychological collapse and hallucination while on the road to Damascus, where he claimed revelations or visions of the divine Jesus. In conjunction with his background of the Greek cults, where the violent deaths of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dionysus brought divinization to their initiates, he created his version of the mysterious religion with Jesus dying and resurrecting to save a helpless mankind. He also initiated the Eucharist, one of the key sacraments of modern Christianity. The out-of-place insertion of eucharistic material based on Corinthians 11:23-26 into the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels, is clearly indicative of his fraud, since the Jerusalem church did not practise the Eucharist. The story of the resurrection of Christ is owed to the workings of Paul's mind, and was not known elsewhere. Effectively, he tried to create what might be termed a new mystery cult, claiming at its center a real but divine being (Christ) who died for the sake of mankind. He incorporated into this cult several aspects of Gnosticism, another ascetic philosophy of the time. Where possible, he tried to make the other apostles seem unworthy, and make himsef the hero in both his own letters and in the Acts of the Apostles. Of course, this was best done when preaching to Gentiles, far from Jerusalem. Thus, Christianity of the New Testament is essentially the use of Christ by the mind of Paul, with his conflicts, hallucinations and complex background.

It is estimated that after starting his mission in 44 AD in Antioch, he travelled more than 8000 miles on foot, touring Cyprus, Asia Minor, Corinth, Ephesus. (The security and comfort for this journey is owed to the Roman empire, which did not interfere in religious affairs of the subjects.) A key accomplishment of major political ramification was taking Christ's message outside the confines of Jewish believers. The apostle Peter claimed a revelation that the Gentiles were to receive the Gospel. Thus Peter, Paul, and the other apostles started preaching to people who were not Jews. Of course, this was not without problems. Were the Gentiles who entered the fold expected to circumcise in the ancient manner of the Jews? Were they expected to follow the other rituals of the Jews? A council was held in Jerusalem to keep Jewish converts and non-Jewish converts in harmony. In particular, circumcision was not a requirement for those who wished to enter the Church.

[svinayak]

Anyway, it is obvious that Vatican is a big geopolitical player. But what advantages does India get by having diplomatic relationships with it?
China and Islamic countries happily do without having a diplomatic relationship with the Vatican.

This is a very good question.
China and Islamic countries have built strong relationship with movers and shakers who in turn control the Vatican. This needs to be understood to understand geopolitics in todays world of 21st century.
Religion plays an important part in the geo-politics of the world.

[Kumar]

Acharya,

Remembered a sher from a ghazal sung by Mehdi Hasan:

Mukh mein baat paheli jaisi, Bas wohi boojhe jisko bujhaye
( Words coming out of the mouth as riddles, only he understands for whom they are meant)

bhed na paye to ghabraye, bhed jo paye to ghabraye.
(If someone doesn't get a clue he panics, and if someone gets a clue he panics. )

[Arun_S]

Look like the coins issue is real
V. Sundaram's comments on the new coins

How come there are no questions in the Lok Sabha?

The head of RBI and Government Mint must be fired from their job. This is ultimate national betrayal.

These people must be made an example to put the fear of law and a nation that will not accept its character changed by the corrupt and incompetent people at the helm of affairs in Govt office and ruling Government.

[Dharmavir]

the vatican, and the likes or ratzinger and wojtyla, have NEVER apologized for the atrocities of the church in the indian inquisition that i believe was conducted by portuguese catholics. Note that the vatican/wojtyla did apologise to christian victims of the inquisitions conducted before and after the indian inquisition.

Far from apologizing he made an announcement on Deepavali (the most popular festival of Hindus) that in this century a harvest is to be reaped in Asia and according to the Indian media and several Indian Christian organizations even asking for an apology for such brutal acts makes one a Hindu fanatic out to destroy the "secular fabric" of the country.

[Prem]

Anyway, it is obvious that Vatican is a big geopolitical player. But what advantages does India get by having diplomatic relationships with it?
China and Islamic countries happily do without having a diplomatic relationship with the Vatican.

This is a very good question.
China and Islamic countries have built strong relationship with movers and shakers who in turn control the Vatican. This needs to be understood to understand geopolitics in todays world of 21st century.
Religion plays an important part in the geo-politics of the world.

21st century has not moved the man out of tribal tent yet.
Globalism is all about Gobblism by religious or economic gremlins.

[Sadler]

Look like the coins issue is real
V. Sundaram's comments on the new coins

How come there are no questions in the Lok Sabha?

The head of RBI and Government Mint must be fired from their job. This is ultimate national betrayal.

These people must be made an example to put the fear of law and a nation that will not accept its character changed by the corrupt and incompetent people at the helm of affairs in Govt office and ruling Government.

What if they (head of RBI and Government Mint ) were threatened with dismissal and worse if they did not follow the diktats of the waitress from Rome? Its still betrayal, whether by free will or under duress. But, we all know the tremendous pressure such christian organizations can put decent people under: loss of job, hounding as intolerant and bigoted in public despite the fact that they were trying to expose intolerance and bigotry.

Heck, just look at this forum. When i had just started posting, the kinds of posts on this thread would have evoked a swift reprisal by at least one admin, along with labels of bigot, intolerant, fool and worse. I know, because i have been called that.

[pradeepe]

I would have thought currency denominations go through a lot more scrutiny than say issual of a postal stamp

[svinayak]

Heck, just look at this forum. When i had just started posting, the kinds of posts on this thread would have evoked a swift reprisal by at least one admin, along with labels of bigot, intolerant, fool and worse. I know, because i have been called that.

You are a target because you are exposing things which Hindus are ignorant.
Ignorance of Hindus is used as we see in the new mint coins discussed here.

[Arun_S]

Acharya,

Remembered a sher from a ghazal sung by Mehdi Hasan:

Mukh mein baat paheli jaisi, Bas wohi boojhe jisko bujhaye
( Words coming out of the mouth as riddles, only he understands for whom they are meant)

bhed na paye to ghabraye, bhed jo paye to ghabraye.
(If someone doesn't get a clue he panics, and if someone gets a clue he panics. )

Kumar: Kuch bhed gupt rakhne main hi behtari hai.

Woh samjhai hum bay-khabar hai, aur khanjar chalaney aaye,
Par hum jaag rahey thay, aur unka gala kalam kar diya.

But Acharya gives vital clues, those of intelligent and persuasive streak can use and figure out the game. It is quite thrilling. Hay Google and Wiki are good aid. But I must zip up for now.

Read the 2500 years old history of Europe, Christianity & Jews to understand the hunter and the hunted; Indian got dragged into it 250 years ago and now ready to be devoured.