Religion thread - 7

[geeth]

>>>BTW, talking about evengelist's message being a nuisance, how many here have heard about "Kodungalloor Bharani" in kerala? (it occurs around this time of the year) I thik that is a much bigger nuisance unless you enjoy listening to profanity. Surprised

>>>This is a festival in a famous temple in kerala (supposedly a budhist/jain shrine at some point) where profane songs are sung as part of the festival and procession through the town. "Bharani pattu" (Bharani song) is synonymous with obscene song in malayali vocabulari. Usually people living in that area shut the doors and stay inside while the procession goes around (to avoid hearing "bharani paattu") during the festival.

>>>Apart from the obscene songs, what I found interesting about Bharani festival was the role of dalits in the whole festival. Dalits have the right to do the pooja in this temple during those days and they use alcohol, chicken and fish as the offering during the pooja. If I remember right, chickens are slaughtered as part of the offering to the deity.

I Don't hink you understand about what you are talking...Did any of these people tell you to join them?

For those who are uninterested, preachings of Evangelists are as obscene as these songs you refer. By the way, I like those songs very much

[Alok_N]

In formal logic terms, it is called Petitio Principii.

In informal BRF terms, it calls for mental Pepto Bismalii ...

Usually people living in that area shut the doors and stay inside while the procession goes around (to avoid hearing "bharani paattu") during the festival.

I don't see why this is similar to EJ activity ... it may be a public nuisance is the same way as loudspeakers in mosques calling for prayer or some pooja being aired loudly at high decibels ...

[S.Valkan]

Valkan - Falsely "Crying fire" in a theatre is different from falsely "crying fire" in a parking lot. This is simply because in the former, the people are led to believe that their *life* is at risk, and that they have to act immediately without thought.

Suppose that I condition people with false cries of "Fire" ( like Cry Wolf parable ) inside a theater like a Pavlovian experiment, and they begin to realise that "Fire" shout does NOT automatically mean fire, would they act immediately in case of yet another "Fire" shout ?

No, right ?

Moreover, if they didn't, they'd die if REALLY there was a fire.

So, the govt. can't take that chance, and makes shouting "Fire!" illegal, because it is the duty of the govt. to prevent death and injury.

Similarly in "cow slaughter" there is no imminent threat to life or liberty of any human community, that should cause these people to act immediately without thought.

Try molesting a woman in the street, and there will be a thousand people - not necessarily her relatives - baying for your blood. There is no immediate danger to their lives, but they involuntarily do it!

It is past conditioning that is important. the Govt. knows that a REAL OR FALSE allegation of cow slaughter can lead to mob violence, and innocent people will die or be injured, as had happened in the past.

So, the Govt. says "let's not take chances", and institutes the law.

I will ignore your gratuitous "a typical book-fed Christian" but focus on your comment that "Hindus don't think like that" in response to my commentary on kar sevaks. Is it your contention that they were not Hindus, or that they were operating on an imperfect understanding of Hinduism and DHarma?

Bajrangis operate on the principle of "Hinduism is in immediate danger", much like Cow-belt Hindus acting against cow slaughter.

And their hardened beliefs are conditioned by the historical experience of "Give the Muslims an inch, and they'll take a mile, and destroy Hindus and Hinduism".

That is qualitatively different from the thinking of a majority of Hindus from places which have historically seen little Muslim persecution, especially in the South and East.

That's why I differentiated between them.

Now, the article does not come from a site that intends to ridicule the Hindu faith, so what shall we make of these assertions? Shall we say that they too, do not understand the difference?

See the reasons I mentioned for Bajrangi behaviour.

Now, they have a vested reason - not entirely illogical - to believe that the violent minorities ( Muslims especially ) need to be united against by Hindus at large.

And scriptural arguments can be very strong, especially when more than 90% of the people don't understand the original vedic Sanskrit, even if some of them understand the "reformed" ( Samskritam ) language of the post-Vedic era ( under the compilation of Panini ).

The "thinkers" among the Bajrangis may or may not understand the difference.

For example, "Go-Brahmana Hitaya" in Sanskrit actually refers to "welfare of the world and Self-realized people" and NOT "Cows and Brahmin priests" ( Go means 'the world' ).

But that would necesarily weaken their position against Muslims, and hence they stick to the mass-market interpretation.

[Sajan]

The ones that die get eaten. Lots of cows, lots of natural deaths. Lots of beef.

Have you heard of 5 dalits who were murdered for skinning a DEAD cow in Jhajjar ?

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/ ... hpande.cfm

On 15 October 2002, at Duleena village in Jhajjar district of the north Indian state of Haryana, five dalits (members of the oppressed castes, considered lowest in the caste hierarchy) were lynched for allegedly skinning a cow, traditionally considered holy by Hindus. A fortnight later, the killers roam free. The police have not only made no arrests, but registered cases of cow slaughter against the victims.
.....
Giriraj Kishore, a prominent leader of the VHP, was asked at a press conference to comment on the killings. He pontificated that the cow is holy for the Hindus and its life is precious. When asked if the life of a cow is more precious than the life of five dalits, he answered with silence.

The priest of the local temple at Duleena was more candid. On 17 October, the Star News channel caught the priest, a member of the VHP, justifying the killings. Similar feelings were expressed by the keeper of the local cowshed. There is now little doubt that the mob was organized and egged on to kill the dalits by the local VHP, which has been involved in a ‘cow-protection campaign’ in the region.

Now if some dalit from that village converts to christianity, people here will be shouting against EJs!!! How the evil EJs are encouraging cow-slaughter after converting dalits to christianity!!

... it may be a public nuisance is the same way as loudspeakers in mosques calling for prayer or some pooja being aired loudly at high decibels

We are talking about profane songs here, not about the bells for pooja or loudspeakers calling for prayer which doesn't have profanity.

[Calvin]

And scriptural arguments can be very strong, especially when more than 90% of the people don't understand the original vedic Sanskrit, even if some of them understand the "reformed" ( Samskritam) language of the post-Vedic era ( under the compilation of Panini ). The "thinkers" among the Bajrangis may or may not understand the difference.

This is the essence of what I was trying to convey earlier - which is that to a large number of people (likely, the majority of the people) there is no distinction between Dharma and Religion. And many of the arguments being made to generate popular support, are based on religion.

So, the govt. can't take that chance, and makes shouting "Fire!" illegal, because it is the duty of the govt. to prevent death and injury.

For one, the government doesn't have a duty to "prevent death" or "prevent injury" - it only has a duty to punish those that cause death or injury to others.

Secondly, the "falsely shouting fire" test was overturned and the test limits free speech when it incited imminent lawless action.

Accordingly, the Pavlovian experiment is not quite appropriate. The proscription is not "shouting fire", but "falsely shouting fire", and it is further qualified to "falsely shouting fire for the purpose of inciting imminent lawless action."

Now the analogy between "molesting a woman in the street" to "mob violence in the face of cow slaughter" is a bit specious.

In one case, a person's rights are obviously being taken away, and the "mob" responds to protect that person's rights. In the second case, the threat of mob violence is being used to achieve political ends. No human beings are being physically assaulted or battered when a cow is slaughtered.

How is this different from Shah Bano? Was the government of the day justified in saying "lets not take chances", and modify the constitution?

[Sajan]

Try molesting a woman in the street, and there will be a thousand people - not necessarily her relatives - baying for your blood. There is no immediate danger to their lives, but they involuntarily do it!

There you go!! Here comes a potential justification for the murder of those dalits!! Dalits were raping a dead "Gau-matha" and on-lookers couldn't tolerate that!! :LOL:

How dare any EJ or secularist get into people expressing their righteous anger ?

[Sajan]

Alok N,

I don't see why this is similar to EJ activity ...

I think geeth gave the answer

For those who are uninterested, preachings of Evangelists are as obscene as these songs you refer. By the way, I like those songs very much

So one may not like "bharani pattu" or preaching of evangelicals, but probably there are many who like that. So my dislike for bharani song or geeth's dislike for evangelicals won't be the basis of law of the land.

[Alok_N]

ok, this thread has officially entered cow corner ... let the googling games begin ...

it is amazing how the larger picture can be subverted into cow thingy ...

Calvin will say "all we need is one exception to negate", point at the cow thingy, Sajan will back it up with google, and all earlier debate will be nullified ...

[Sajan]

It is not a "cow thingy", it is a question of individual rights.

Shiv made a comment that people can eat a dead cow instead of resorting to cow-slaughter. I showed an example of what happened to dalits who skinned a dead cow and how the perpetrators have escaped the consequences. In this forum itself, example of raping a woman is being put up as a justification for mob violence in the event of cow-slaughter.

[TSJones]

Sajan:

Please tone it down or you will be gone. I very much want to see you to continue to contribute your knowledge about the situation. Please consider that even objective observations with direct links to news is going to be highly controversial here. Don't add ridicule the way they do, because well, the forum here is to honor India and they think India is under constant attack from America anyway. I know you will take my words in the best manner, not as a put down. Thanks in advance. - TSJ

PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad to.

[Alok_N]

It is not a "cow thingy", it is a question of individual rights.

what if I simply state that according to Indian cultural value system, it is not your right to eat a cow ...

will you just huff and puff or demonstrate to me why each of your whims should be catered to?

will you point to any nation on this planet that does that?

why don't you explain to me why Govt. of India and Govt. of the US have a Holiday on Sunday, when my individual right is to work on Sunday and have a Holiday on Tuesday?

is that a right or a whim? ...

for a Hanuman worshipper, Tuesday is sacred ... it is very much a part of him religion that he be able to go temple that day just like christians like to go to church on Sunday ...

what is more sacred to christians ... church on Snnday or eating cow? ... which would you give up first ? ...

[Tilak]

Sajan:

Please tone it down or you will be gone. I very much want to see you to continue to contribute your knowledge about the situation. Please consider that even objective observations with direct links to news is going to be highly controversial here. Don't add ridicule the way they do, because well, the forum here is to honor India and they think India is under constant attack from America anyway. I know you will take my words in the best manner, not as a put down. Thanks in advance. - TSJ

PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad to.

Calvin, is "unfortunately" away.. Sajan and you have more time..

So please feel free..

[Shwetank]

I havn't been following this thread completely lately but Sajan what are you trying to say about individual rights? Are Valkan et al saying that those rights are not valid, are they saying that they condone these kinds of activities? people have accepted that there are bad things going on and there is disconnect between reality on the ground and what the folks here consider true form of SD. or is the argument about whether hinduism will invariably lead to those kinds of acts and that what Valkan and co. are saying is some dream world interpretation which can't ever be applied in reality andt that they are wrong in saying that such acts are not commited in true spirit of hinduism? are you saying that hinduism can never be like the lofty ideals folks here talk about and that the only way to stop activities such those posted by you is to completely remove hinduism?

and Valkan, are you saying that scriptural interpretations that say you can't eat cows are wrong (from the Vedas that is), that there is not line specific lines like those posted by Calvin and that those are wrong translations?

[S.Valkan]

Apart from the obscene songs, what I found interesting about Bharani festival was the role of dalits in the whole festival. Dalits have the right to do the pooja in this temple during those days and they use alcohol, chicken and fish as the offering during the pooja. If I remember right, chickens are slaughtered as part of the offering to the deity.

This is the classic Vamachara Tantric mode of worship, as opposed to the Sattvic("pure") mode of worship.

If the Absolute Reality is non-dual, it must be above all dualities, including that of "pure" and "impure".

The usual "impurities" of the Pancha-Makara ( 5-Ms ) - Madya(alcohol), Mamsa(meat), Matsya(fish), Maithuna(sexual intercourse/obscenity) and Mudra(cereal cakes filled with paste of intoxicant plants like cannabis) are used in this form of ritual.

Properly undestood, this is an extremely effective way of Brahman "realization".

There are several restrictions on WHO should engage in this form of Tantra,- it is not the general people with animal instincts(Pashu class), but
the brave ( Vira class ) who have risen above animal instincts, but haven't risen to the level of symbolism.

The Pashu(animal) class of people are expected to follow the ways of the society,- "pure" mode of worship ( Dakshinachara ) with incense, flower, bells, conches, and Vigraha.

The people who have risen to the level of symbolic understanding (the "divine" or Divya class of people ) are already able to see through the duality of "pure" and "impure", and need neither.

But, thanks to McCaulay-educated folks, and certain people who abuse this ritual for sense gratification, the whole discipline has gained a bad rap.

[SaiK]

Here is an argument:-

"Brahman is Whole" needs proof, since its not "self-evident", that it -is a- "whole". hence, "Brahman is Whole" becomes axiom.
Since existence of Brahman can't be proved and NOT self-evident, It is merely a THOUGHT.

?

[Vishy_mulay]

Calvin thanks for ruining this thread for good. For ignorants go and read how beef recipes are described in Vedas Puranas and other holy texts. Just a sampler,

Aitareya Brahmana 1.15 refers to killing of an ox or barren cow on the occasion of arrival of a king or somebody. Paanini, in one of his aforisms, refers to a guest as a killer of cow. This has been widely interpreted that cow used to be killed on the occasion of arrival of a guest.

Shatapatha Brahmana 3.1.2.21 mentions that a person who is under pledge for yagna should not eat cow or ox because gods have kept the essences of all the animals in them. But at the same time, sage Yaajnavalkya has been quoted as saying that if it is 'ansal;, then he will eat.

Shatapatha Brahmana 4.5.2.1 describes the killing and elevation to a higher plane of a barren cow.

Taittireeya Samhita 7.1.1.5 refers to the birth of Jagati Chhanda, a businessman/Vaishya, a cow in animals from the stomach of Prajaapati, so these have been classified as worthy to be eaten.

Atharvaveda 12.4.37 and 38 decries the preparation of barren cow except for the sake of gods. There is reference of killing of cows in Magha in Atharvaveda 14.1.13. Rigveda 10.85.13 directs killing of cows in Aghaa/sin. Atharvaveda 5.18.1, 5.19.4, 5.19.10 etc. refer the cow of a brahmin as forbidden food and decry its eating.

Taittireeya Brahmana 3.4.16.1 directs killing of cow for Nirriti/the god of sins and also dircts cutting of cow for hunger. Taittireeya Brahmana 3.9.8.2 refers to killing of cow in sacrificial way and says that yagna is the cow.

Taittireeya Samhita 4.2.10.2 directs not to kill an Aditi Viraaja cow.

Besides this, there are references in Puraanic texts here and there that sage Vasishtha sent his pupil Satyavrata for grazing of cow, but Satyavrata, on being hungry, killed the cow and ate it. At this, he earned the wrath of his guru. Similarly, there is the story of 7 pupils of Bhardwaaja? who also killed and ate the cow.

Sajan I was waiting for someone to bring what happened in Haryana. Whenever innocent life is lost its a tragedy and in this instance it was done by SDFs and needs thorough condemnation ( to the extend please publicly hang those who committed this crime) No justification can be offered but please try to learn details about why it happened.

http://www.dalits.org/haryanaatrocities.htm

Details of the Incident:
3 of the victims 2 from Badshahpur and 1 from Karnal were engaged in their traditional occupation of leather tanning. They also had government license for the same. Out of the other two victims one was a driver of the truck and the other the cleaner.

On the date of incident, they had loaded the truck with dead animal skin and were going towards Karnal which is known for leather trade and industry. They took the route through Dulina Police Post, which is on the main road.

Virender’s father Ratan Singh said that the story of skinning of a dead cow is just a cover-up. We have been doing leather tanning for three generations. There is no question of them skinning a cow by the side of the road. They worked on contracts, which they got from Municipality auctions. The truck the five Dalits were traveling in had hides and would never carry a carcass.

Dayachand’s father Budhram alleges that as per his information, the police stopped the truck and asked them for a hefty bribe. When they refused to pay they were beaten up mercilessly and a case registered against them under the Cow Slaughter (Prevention) Act. Since one of them got seriously injured or perhaps killed, the police spread the story that they were killing a cow.

The Police informed the relatives of the victims very late around three in the morning that there was an accident and the victims were admitted in the Jhajjar Civil Hospital.

It is mentioned in the FIR lodged by the SHO that these 5 Dalits were attacked by a mob of around 4000-5000 who were returning back from Dusshera Fair. It is alleged that a group of people saw these 5 Dalits skinning a cow by the roadside and that is how information was passed on to others that some Muslims are engaged in cow killing.

The police claims in the FIR that a lathi charge was carried out on the mob, but the mob beat them back. The police did not deem it necessary to explain why no tear gas shelling or even firing in the air were used to disperse the blood thirsty mob despite the fact that police reinforcement were brought from the Jhajjar Police Station and a host of police and civil officials were present at the Dulina Police Post at the time of the incident.

The police claim that the five had bought a cow for Rs. 200 from a nearby village. Till date the police has not bothered to identify or locate the person who supposedly sold the cow.

The family members of the victims informed the fact-finding team members that they do not do skinning of a dead cow in this manner. Infact, the local Panchayat allocates land in villages where it is done through well-established procedures.

The spot where the victims were allegedly skinning the cow bores no mark of such act when the fact finding team visited there. No blood was found on the spot.

Mirchi Baba who is the priest of the temple which is near the Dulina Police Post has been found missing since the time of the incident.

Despite several eyewitnesses and officials admitting they were there, none has been named in the FIR.

How the VHP activist came to know about the alleged cow killing has remained a mystery so far. The role of police is highly suspicious in this regard. Why the police have not arrested the National Vice President of the VHP Acharya Giriraj Kishore who has publicly justified the killing of five Dalits by saying that in the Hindu Shastras the life of a cow is more important than the life of a human being? Why again the police have not arrested the local VHP office bearers who have dared the police to take any action?

As long as people like G Kishore are present in SD fold, there will be no progress on many fronts. Please also read how EJs took political advantage of this heinous crime to their advantage. I have time and again said that we need discussion on SD and its problem. But when illiterate people like TSJones (illiterate because they have no clue about what they are farting) starts commenting on it, its really not worth. You want to discuss it fine bring it on. I for one will be actively participating in it. Without identifying problems there will never be any progress. Just I dont want some one farting in AC toilet to tell me what I should do in my house with one remedy of finding Hesus.

[S.Valkan]

and Valkan, are you saying that scriptural interpretations that say you can't eat cows are wrong (from the Vedas that is), that there is not line specific lines like those posted by Calvin and that those are wrong translations?

I am not concerned about interpretation.

All I ask is a definitive scriptural injunction ( "DO NOT EAT COWS" ) in the Samhitas, Brahmanas or the Gita.

There is no such thing.

One can argue from the Brahma Vaivarta Purana that sacrifice of cows is discouraged in the Kaliyuga, just as "Devarena Sutotpattim" ( producing an offspring from a brother-in-law ).

At first glance, this seems so disgusting.

But the idea in the Vedic era was that, if the husband was killed in war, or died of natural causes, the widow had the choice of marrying the brother-in-law.

This is no longer practised in KaliYuga.

Why ?

Is it because of the "influence" of the Brahma Vaivarta Purana ?

Maybe. maybe not.

Most likely it became a problem for society of the times, and the Purana clearly reflects that.

Similarly, sacrificing calves for an honoured guest is mentioned in the Vedas.

But it is no longer in vogue.

If you follow the train of thought, it is possible that - as part of the evolution of society - some practices were considered unacceptable.

That's what culture and tradition is.

Now, if one tries to retro-actively apply their tradition to the Vedas, it becomes a problem.

[TSJones]

Vishy:

But when illiterate people like TSJones (illiterate because they have no clue about what they are farting) starts commenting on it, its really not worth. You want to discuss it fine bring it on.

Please do not personally attack me with name calling.

[S.Valkan]

Here is an argument:-

"Brahman is Whole" needs proof, since its not "self-evident", that it -is a- "whole". hence, "Brahman is Whole" becomes axiom.
Since existence of Brahman can't be proved and NOT self-evident, It is merely a THOUGHT.

?

Obiously, you either didn't read the First Principles Post, or didn't understand it.

Nowhere is "Brahman is Whole" assumed.

All I can humbly suggest is you give it one more try.

[SaiK]

sure. i'd love to try again & again, till.. let me go back to your post. there exists murkhness in my understanding, hence i'd to seek for proofs. in the meanwhile, my questions would also include, "if its not assumed", then it is not necessarily means it "should not be assumed". its for those minds, that which is "not understood" becomes "fact" only in the "minds" of only sages. rest all are murkhed.

sorry. hope i'll get the awakenings... soon., before the demise of this thread.

[Tilak]

Vishy:

But when illiterate people like TSJones (illiterate because they have no clue about what they are farting) starts commenting on it, its really not worth. You want to discuss it fine bring it on.

Please do not personally attack me with name calling.

My sympathies are with the "Poor Americans" , who get blamed for everything .... , and others who cant figure out, the Trolls in the World of Wordcraft.

PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad not to.

[Alok_N]

TSJ can shoot from the peanut gallery but has no time for simple questions ...

once again, is the Government of the United States sanctioned holiday on Sunday a Religious Act or not?

why not have a rotating system? ... one year weekends could be Sat-Sun, Fri-Sat the next, Tue-Wed the third etc etc ...

will the Bible Belt be able to take it?

[pradeepe]

Sajan:

Please tone it down or you will be gone. I very much want to see you to continue to contribute your knowledge about the situation. Please consider that even objective observations with direct links to news is going to be highly controversial here. Don't add ridicule the way they do, because well, the forum here is to honor India and they think India is under constant attack from America anyway. I know you will take my words in the best manner, not as a put down. Thanks in advance. - TSJ

PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad to.

I have no idea what you are trying to do.
I dont see you asking questions on this thread, so you must be trying to make a point.

With all humility I ask you to educate me.

[disha]

BTW, talking about evengelist's message being a nuisance, how many here have heard about "Kodungalloor Bharani" in kerala? (it occurs around this time of the year) I thik that is a much bigger nuisance unless you enjoy listening to profanity.

...

Apart from the obscene songs, what I found interesting about Bharani festival was the role of dalits in the whole festival. Dalits have the right to do the pooja in this temple during those days and they use alcohol, chicken and fish as the offering during the pooja. If I remember right, chickens are slaughtered as part of the offering to the deity.

So where is Dalit exploitation in the above?

Also, Dalits have the right to do the pooja in this temple ... - Isn't that a good thing?

Question for you - can you find instances where the pauline church has been found tolerant of other christian views? I mean pope apoligizing for what was done to Galileo is not being a tolerant view. What I mean is the the view point where pope saying that the mormons are also part of the church etc.

[TSJones]

Is Christmas day a national holiday in India? Seriously.

[pradeepe]

Is Christmas day a national holiday in India? Seriously.

yes.

[disha]

Is Christmas day a national holiday in India? Seriously.

Yes.

And how pathetic that your knowledge about it is at that level. Shame on you.

[Vishy_mulay]

Sorry TSJones, I really wanted to insult illiterate people. My apologies to all illiterate people in world for equating them with great TSJones.

[TSJones]

Is that cultural or religious?

[disha]

Is that cultural or religious?

It is religious. Just like March 31 is celebrated officially as Mahavir Jayanti.

A question for you? Is December 25, the christmas day - is that day ascribed because it coincided with certain "pagan" cultural festivals or is it a real day jesus was born?

[Alok_N]

TSJ is struggling ...

yes, in India there is an attempt to provide at least one National holiday for each religion ...

that is not the same as a Weekend every week ...

Saturday caters to Jews and Sunday to Christians ... what about the rest?

[ShauryaT]

Is that cultural or religious?

As far as India is concerned, it is colonial. There is simply no justification for a national holiday for minority religious festivals.

A perfect example of a minority veto on the wishes of the majority.
Just like there is no justification for a national holiday on Passover or Diwali in the US.

[svinayak]

Everybody is waiting for Beef eating discussion to come to a halt before the real purpose of the thread starts.

[Gus]

Is Christmas day a national holiday in India? Seriously.

Yes and so is Good Friday (IIRC).

Too bad Easter is on Sunday, else that would also be a holiday.

If we get Alok's plan of rotating weekly holidays, maybe that would happen...

[Vishy_mulay]

Acharya, I have sinned against illiterates of the world. Can you recommend me any paapschalan remedy so that my musharraf can have Shanti. Eagerly awaiting to ease the Apana vayu.

[svinayak]

Acharya, I have sinned against illiterates of the world. Can you recommend me any paapschalan remedy so that my musharraf can have Shanti. Eagerly awaiting to ease the Apana vayu.

Do not worry you are doing a good job. You have put illiterates in their place.

[Kakkaji]

Is that cultural or religious?

Religious

Good Friday is also a National Holiday (Religious) in India. I never got that holiday in all my years in the U.S.

Id-ul-Fitr, Id-Ul-Zoha, Muharram, Prophet Mohammad's Birthday are the Muslim Holidays on which everybody gets a religious holiday.

Add to that Hindu religious holidays, Sikh religious holidays, Jain religious holidays, Buddhist religious holidays and there are not too many working days left in the year.

But seriously this is what I find so annoying about your posts. You know next to zilch about India, have apparently not spent any time there, and yet you pontificate all the time about what is wrong with India, what India should do etc. etc.

When Johann, the other westerner on this forum, posts about India, he at least comes across as someone who has spent a lot of time in India, and has studied India deeply.

You OTOH, I am sorry to say this, come across as a bird that flies quickly overhead and dumps bird droppings on everybody.

BTW, I do appreciate those posts of yours where you write about the US military, US politics, and US history. You are a BRF 'subject matter expert' on those areas.

I would suggest that before you post any more about India, its people, its religions, customs, history, politics etc., you should take a trip to India and spend a few months travelling across the country (a two weeks vacation visiting the Taj Mahal won't do).

Sorry for the rant. Please forgive my harsh words.

[S.Valkan]

This is the essence of what I was trying to convey earlier - which is that to a large number of people (likely, the majority of the people) there is no distinction between Dharma and Religion. And many of the arguments being made to generate popular support, are based on religion.

No, Calvin.

A few posts ago, you insinuated that Hindu Dharma is not tolerant.

Now, it is obvious that such an insinuation doesn't stick.

What the government does - as a consequence to popular conviction - can't be blamed on Hindu Dharma as such.

So, I am not sure your point stands.

For one, the government doesn't have a duty to "prevent death" or "prevent injury" - it only has a duty to punish those that cause death or injury to others.

Only partially true.

Why doesn't the govt. allow free sale of prescription and illicit drugs, or legislate against smoking ?

Is it only to "punish" people, or prevent death/injury ?

Secondly, the "falsely shouting fire" test was overturned and the test limits free speech when it incited imminent lawless action.

As I pointed out, even a "false" rumour can cause mob violence following cow slaughter. Have you been reading the posts ?

Accordingly, the Pavlovian experiment is not quite appropriate. The proscription is not "shouting fire", but "falsely shouting fire", and it is further qualified to "falsely shouting fire for the purpose of inciting imminent lawless action."

Answered above.

Real or false, the news of cow slaughter can be incite mob violence.

Now the analogy between "molesting a woman in the street" to "mob violence in the face of cow slaughter" is a bit specious.

In one case, a person's rights are obviously being taken away, and the "mob" responds to protect that person's rights.

That's the duty of the government, not the vigilante justice of the mob.

In any event, like PETA, the Cow Belt people believe in the animal rights of cows, and its violation triggers an automatic response.

In the second case, the threat of mob violence is being used to achieve political ends. No human beings are being physically assaulted or battered when a cow is slaughtered.

Wrong.

The threat of mob violence is being used to PROTECT civilians.

How is this different from Shah Bano? Was the government of the day justified in saying "lets not take chances", and modify the constitution?

Sure.

The Constitution is a social contract,- it is not set in stone.

If the society feels a certain way, and have enough representative support for the Amendment in the Legislature, the contract is renegotiated.

[Sajan]

I deliberately didn't tell the whole story about Kodungalloor Bharani and as I can see, Valkan and Disha have jumped the gun already.

The offerings by Dalits is part of "kaavu theendal" - i.e. making the temple impure. Dalits are not allowed to perform year-round poojas in that temple, their presence is required only for that "kaavu theendal" ceremony. After that the temple is purified.

Kodungalloor temple is built on top of a buddhist shrine (This temple unlike any other is built over burial chambers which are not yet opened. The main deity here is a single-breasted kaali and the similarity can not be missed with that of Kannaki, heroine of "Chilappathikaram" composed by Ilango Adikal,a prince of chera dynasty that ruled kerala with Vanji - i think the old name for Kodungalloor- as their capital. ) and the profane "bharani" songs actually was commomerate the attempt by hindus top drive out budhists from the nearby monasteries. Budhists had a sizeable presence in kerala before shankaracharya. Btw I don't subscribe to those stories that Budhist monks lost the debates and committed suicide, as the profane songs from Kodungalloor bharani and ceremonies like kaavu theendal illustrate, muscle was used to drive out budhist monks in this "hostile takeover" attempt.

[TSJones]

Sorry for the rant. Please forgive my harsh words.

Not to worry! I am the very soul of forgiveness.