Well..suit yourself. In my opinion though the language has been made deliberately shrill with definite motives and not at all commensurate with the magnitude of actual problems. It is not that the particular Army guy was harsh the report was harsh itself.And not only the report;on separate occasions there has been comments made such as:
The last I checked IA was working with DRDO and still wanted 3500 Arjun's; reading the language one way or the other is a exercise which can be done ad infinitum with no value -- nothing on the ground has changed without good reason.
What we have today is a mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Kapoor said last November.
So what exactly is mid level in the Arjun..and if it is so what other higher level options does the IA have today in terms of technology?
Today? I dont think he is saying today -- and the manufacturing of tanks by OFB is certainly not world class today. The Chief is laying down a wish list for future and a vision -- he unfortunately has a real responsibility and can not be a Arjun fan boy -- so he will ask for the moon -- part of his job IMVHO.
The reports say that the T-90 wasnâ€™t configured to fire the shell..and the shells were duds.Whatever the actual issue is ,its still a major problem with the program.
The problem was with auto loader software -- which I believe has been corrected now -- the Russikes were playing hardball which they would do anyway -- this was not a option IA had -- just like the great IN which every body is praising to high heavens is groveling for the Groshkov.
Further; many of the shell problems that YOU listed were seen outside T 90 in T 72 itself; quality etc etc.
So lets not be too quick to judge here.
I think the two cases provide interesting and significant comparing characteristics.
Hardly -- huge differences -- a import driven by immediate threat perception needs
can never be compared to a internal R&D project -- that too one from a established tank maker and one from a total newbie."The unreliability of the Indian made shell is so serious that the army did not use it in critical numbers in the last two war games that were carried out in Punjab and Rajasthan".
What does the unreliability because of poor manufacture has to do with T 90 the shell is unreliable for every platform; period.
>problem with engine overheating and derating
Yeah then how they are being used successfully in all the exercises today -- Brazen Chariots
>problem with Russia delaying in giving ToT
That will always be true with imports-- the problem is that we landed in the import trap and no it was not only IAs fault.
>problem with BDL difficulty in manufacturing refleks
Not T90s fault is it? Anyway that I believe is also sorted out.
>>continuing problems with torsion bar
problems? How many reports -- when was the last report?
>other problems such as:
"lack of cooling systems leading to uninhabitable temperatures over 60C degrees (over 140F) inside the tank, and reports that at least one armored regiment had an in-service rate of just 25% for its T-90s"
IA chose to not take air-con.
not T 90 problem per se.
You are comparing the problems of a deployed tank with problems of tank that can be deployed since it does not pass basic tests.
And it did cost a lot.F.e. 700 crores lost due to shells.Another example:
Shells is not a T 90 problem alone; I said that before and I will say that again.
You said initially it was because of tech problems; now you are saying its because of Tech transfer problems? Surely even you understand the difference -- a lot of the tech transfer problem was also because of Avadi not ramping up fast -- bashing Russians is fun but not productive.
Links to any news report would be helpful.During Ex Ashwamedha 2007 Arjuns performed perfectly where as t-90s ended up having torsion bar problems.So participation in exercises is not sufficient.
How about the latest one -- Brazen chariots -- just google -- lots of post on this thread too
Well nowhere have I said that all of the problem is the armyâ€™s.The blame has to go bothways.but the point being made is that considering the significance of inhouse efforts in the long term the army should cut the developers a bit more of the slack.T
NO; the tank must be ready as PER ARMY -- let CVDR/OFB take time but accepting a sub standard product for main deployment is not acceptable.
Supporting the program can be done in MANY ways outside accepting a product which is not right for the IA.
he incidents happening in recent times IMHO shows that there is still room for the army to develop a more mature attitude towards all of this which havenâ€™t been the case.
Well I donâ€™t know.The point I was making is that these kind of reports given by the army in the manner that was ,could seriously affect the future of indigenous efforts.On the other hand if similar problem regarding imported content is overlooked points to a serious malady in the institution.
NOT true -- look at IAs acceptance of a whole range of systems from DRDO -- Pinaka; INSAS; NBC kits; WLR; Dhruva etc etc etc...
Cant say army is not for indigenous effort at all.
Yes..lets wait and see.Excellent that was my ONLY point all along
Sorry, lets disagree there.
Cant help you wish to disagree can I?
And a lot more hand holding should be given particularly looking to the future.F.e. the plan is to manufacture 1000 t-90s by 2020.If development is allowed to continue ,in all probability an Arjun will make mincemeat of the already obsolete T-90 in 2020.
I am not saying itâ€™s the IA.I am saying if they are saying in the report that DGQA isnâ€™t maintaining the quality of Arjun then itâ€™s a problem with the DGQA and not with the tank since the same authorities also do QA for other products.
For the end user it will be "tank" he refers to -- why should a Captian in the Armored bother about what is the chain that gets him a tank -- his job is else where.
better..But then again whats keeping them from being proactive?
I can say from personal experience that IA being proactive is not looked at kindly by MoD at all -- all sorts of Nehruvian loss of control alarm bell start rignging.
The Navy was actually lucky -- because MoD TOTALLY NEGLECTED it -- army being the star (numbers of all sorts) -- as we know anything that happens in India happens when Babus think its to unimportant to interfere.