Bharat Rakshak

Wet smelly trash does not deserve place in any house. However such trash is unavoidably generated and it is best to segregate the trash into one area where it can be discarded every now and again.

But let me jump into the trash myself.

The latest issue of Vayu has an article on tanks.

The advent of layered Chobham type armor made tanks with such armor immune to Soviet/Russian anti-tank missiles with HEAT warehads, although they tanks were susceptible to high-kinetic energy shell (DU?) fired from cannon. Missiles just do not develop the required velocity.

In the meantime developments in computing, laser ranging, gun stabilization systems and systems to account for warping of gun barrels made gun accuracy extremely good among Western tanks. Russian tanks have fallen behind in this area - i.e in the ability to fire accurately on the move, and their AT missiles are not effective for reasons stated above.

Perhaps our main tank foe still has tanks vulnerable to current technology Indian army tanks, But the world seems to have pulled away. A discussion of T 90 vs Arjun fails to address these issues.

If I understand correctly the AUCRT trials for T-90 alias modernised T-72 was completed in 1999 to 2002 by which time 300+ T-90s were already delivered to Army


In any case, T-90 is actually a 40 year old design concept so what is wrong in Arjun being similarly old design concept

Raj
there is nothing wrong with the concept of our Arjun, what is wrong in this whole scenario is "Natasha Lovers" of Indian establishment including everyone involved wrt Trash-90 Tank. Regardless of what Russians say about their tanks they are nowhere near in capability and firepower of Abrams, Challenger, Merkava, leopard, lecrelec. Since 90 is upgrade of 72 we all know what happened to 72 in first and second iraq war. Lastly the blame lies with politicians of this nation, they busy saving their gaddi the ilks of Arjun Singh, Sharad Pawar etc.

Thanks Surya; that was my attempt at a pun; pathetic I know; Tea - T.

The Army reckons that the Pakis would never be able to acquire a western heavy. When they acquired the T-84UD , the Army changed it's mind. The key driver for the change in the GSQRs that made the Arjun into a Western Heavy , was the mortal fear that Unkil would hand the Pakis a couple of hundred M1A1s or A2s from their inventory to the Pakis , along with the F-16s and Awacs when they were chummy with them during Zia's days.

The M1A2 was actually demonstrated in Pakistan .. Wasnt Zia and the "Mango Crate" episode, related to his taking the flight to witness the demonstration of the M1A2 ? .. I might be wrong on that particular = = to mangoes and M1A2. But the M1A2 was what drove the GSQR for Arjun.

If that Abrams had come about the IA's goose would have been cooked. There was no eastern counter to the M1A2. The Leopards were out of reach ..

The army must have heaved a massive sigh of relief when the Abrams didnt come, and the Pakis were forced to go with Chini and Ukranian stuff. Now it was back to familiar terrain and they could go to the Russians again.. and they did. In the process, they lost interest in the Arjun, becuase, in their opinion , it was "really not needed"..

To get the Army really really interested in the Arjun and move hell and high water to get it inducted, the best thing that could happen is for Unkil to gift a 100 used Abrams to the Pakis. or if the Pakis get a 100 used Leos or LeClercs.. Now that will get things moving very very quickly on the Arjun indeed.

However the Army knows that is very improbably (close to impossible), and so they are sitting tight..

Thank you Shiv for adding a huge dose of sense into the discussion--



I am a little confused about this -- in my understanding missiles do not work on the same principle as shells w.r.t. penetrating armor -- there are now missiles with tandem warheads (more for ERA armor) and top attack capability.



Kornets (and Milans ?) HAVE wrecked havoc on the Merks recently have Merks did have a close derivate of Chobham.

The question on the gun's effectivenss against Composite armor is a important question through. HEAT may not do it; but it would be possible to use a tandem warhead type of solution in shells too.

Further the soviets have ERA and though not as good as newer composite Armors; they too will provide a substantial protection against HEAT rounds from a Abrhams variety cannon. Soviets claim that T 90 could not be penetrated by any of their ATGMs -- given that the same ATGMs defeated the Merk -- thats not a small claim to be lightly thrown away.



Absolutely. Given that the Chinese are deploying composite armors on their tanks; the effectiveness of MBTs against those are a important point to discuss.

Anant has put the finger on the spot.Doctrine.This is the dividing line between the defence scientific community and the end user ,the services.based upon experience and emerging technology and trends in military tactics and strategy,the services keep revamping their doctrine and refining their tactics to meet new scenarios.For example,the Merkava was meant to reduce tank crew losses by giving them the max protection from its design,where the tank was to be used in hull down positions defensively repellign enemy attacks.However,in Lebanon,the Merkavas sent into battle without ground forces were, exposed to the Hiz's ATGMs and RPGs and suffered considerable unexpected losses and battle damage.

With the IA's new "Cold Start" doctrine,where our ground forces are expected to "take off" like a JATO assisted aircraft,it would be correct to assume that speed and mobility are prime concerns for our armoured formations.A heavy slow tank therefore would appear to be an oddball in such a scenario.Not that there are situations in the vast border regions where the terrain demands that a heavy survivable tank is needed in a more defensive role.This only reinforces the need for the two sides to formulate the needs/parameters together at the start,with sufficient "space" for improvements and modifications (to a point) during the development phase.Not involving the end-user from the beginning and throughout the programme will result in similar standoffs as we are seeing with both the Arjun and the LCA projects.

Philip; I humbly disagree -- this is not a doctrine issue -- as you yourself pointed out -- within the vast tank forces of IA of nearly 6000 tanks, there is space of both a light and heavy tank with vastly different theators of operation both tanks have a role. IA just like all other services seems to find a combination of systems more suitable for its purposes rather than completely going with one. We have seen this time and again. In a army where a large number of Vijyanata's and T 55s still live -- both T 90 and Arjun are cutting edge.

Neither is the question of a different in perception of what Arjun must be --as d_berwal pointed out from parliamentary reports -- there is exactly a common understanding captured in a common document -- the reason for Arjun not coming in is sad but simple -- so far the Arjun made has not been as per the document -- even after cutting it much slack.

Raj your understanding is wrong...

T=90 AUCRT trials were done in 97-99 period...

2001-02 say The induction in 2 Armoued regts.....
---The induction of Armour is not just sitting on ur new baby and driving it away...
--- Induction is a long process anywhere from 18-24+ months
--- During induction crews get trained on
------ Gunnery/firings
------ Driving/Automotive
------ Radio/electronics

----- Firing procedures are improved/fine tuned (on themove/ static)
----- Driving procedures are fine tuned
----- Guns are zeroed
----- Crew learn to do basic repairs
----- eg changing of track etc

----- Once the regt gains the confidence in above, they start coordinated maneuvers (Troop level/ Sqd Level etc)

--- Then to prove that they can act as a coordinated bunch of IRON Horses ,, a series of exercises take place to certify the Regt "WAR WORTHY"
--- They take part in
------ Brgd level exercise
------ Div level exercise
------ COrps level exercise

Then finally a regt completes the INDUCTION.... if a regt is not certifies war worthy they will never be part of any real action ever.

The above process in case of T-90 was completed in 12 months 2001-02
for the whole 12 months they were some where near POKRAN not in there base location/ regt areas

Conversions/ Induction have the same above procedure...

Soo every regt has to do it.

See ARJUNS are coming but only when 10 points as listed in the above points are cleared on PPS15 ... dont be surprised if it take more than 18-24 months for first ARJUN regt to be war worthy

I think the Army is going to get a rude shock when the Chinese finally get around to developing a heavy tank and move away from their T-xx derivatives.

The Air Force have already well in the process of "shock treatment" . China has cloned the Su-27 .. as the J-11 and are in the process of showing the birdie to the Russians. They exploited the post soviet collapse really well and have milked the Russians out of all they need and have no more use for them.

Of course, just like the Pakis will be the first ghulam-e-baksheesh, receiving cut price Su-27 clones, to be called as Super Ding-Dong Bandar and the airforce will be in shock ( remember the old adage. those who forget. history.. well it is the repeat of the Mig 21 story, with Chinese cloned Mig 21s in the hands of the Pakis, ). When the "army" gets a similar shock, that is when things will move.

All the while, the "buy more Russian stuff. good onree " jackasses are going to shoot themselves in the foot , just like they did when they paid for co-development of a lot of things which Russia exported to China and will finally end up in Paki hands! .. Touche!

There is no reason to assume that even Avadi wont be able to get enough Arjun's into IA by that time. However if MoD is remotely serious on this issue they must fix Avadi -- IA has no handle on this aspect.

hey gentlemen,
this Arjun vs T-90 discussion has been done to death on BRF and one thing that all of you must have noticed is that T- series energizer bunnies keep popping out of the woodwork each time the Arjun nears the finishing line.

Each time countless BRFites grapple with these TEBs (for lack of a better term and for the sake of brevity) and have to reiterate the same arguments. The TEBs of course keep prevaricating and indeed "accept certain things" while bringing up new issues.

However once issue #10 has been suitably refuted , they suddenly go back to issue #1 which was dealt with 10 threads ago . thereby exasperating a new lot of BRFites and getting them to go all over it again.

I think it is time we identified the main criticisms , answered it in a civilized manner and put it up on the BR main page itself as a link. so that this chronic TEB issue can be dealt with more effectively.


On another note,
other armies are also buying into the "strategic mobility" ':lol:' paradigm.
. Look at the Japanese with their new Type 10 for instance

"Winners are not those who play by the rules but those who create the rules". Given the state of affairs in the IA best reflected in the N command fiasco I think Indian public must ask for more accounatbility from our army in the matters of defnce procurement. T 90 are nowhere near cutting edge and Arjun is not a slow tank by any means to test this a comparative trial can be undertaken at the drop of a hat. The main question here is a deficit of trust for IA in a large proportion of Indians. ACURT is a sham to hide the inability of army to use an excellent indigenous product.

^^^ Excellent suggestion Saurav Jha also to ensure that it is actually read; we can have a mechanism where a poster can post only after passing a online test.

That will help control lot of other bunnies too such as

1) Pop up to with two line post bunnies -- Two Post Bunnies : TPB.
2) Bunnies who will bash IA every time Avadi makes a faulty canon/shell -- Avadi Defence Bunnies : ADB
3) Bunnies who think that every thing Russian is bad and everything western flies -- West Besotted Bunnies: WBB

And of course
4) Totally clueless Bunnies : TCBs -- this is self explanatory I think.

I concur Comrade

However the TEB is the greatest malaise and refuses to give up.

third line to avoid being called a TPB (':P')

You are entitled to what you think is the greatest malaise comrade -- however there are plenty of TCB running around which I think are the greatest problem. Folks who will say something and after being presented with the tome of a parliamentary report will repeat exactly the same thing afterwards as if the entire knowledge being presented passed on like water under bridge. Too many examples to recount -- a cursory look at the pages will bear that out.

once again I totally agree
which i why I have made the suggestion in the first place

Sanku

While I am trying to keep peace on this thread, you come up with posts that are guaranteed to rile or work up other posters - whats your agenda here? I have not given you any explicit warnings till now, but consider this one. Any posts that are on the realm of flame baiting or aimed at fingering other posters rather than makin your point will earn you a ban.

If you cant resist such posts, then please stay off the thread.

Sir I was only adding on with Sauravjha on his post where he said that the forum is full of T90 Energerizer Bunny's are needs some measure of moderation. Sorry for over stepping my mark -- that was not intentional and certainly not my idea to stir the pot.

Henceforth I will stick to purely to the topic -- however can I please request that the same measure be applied to others who make similar posts too? Given that many such posts exists and are not chided; it becomes difficult to understand what the correct line for a particular thread is given that there seem to be different standards of discussion in each.

Thanks for the understanding in advance -- I assure you that there will be no posts aimed at any other poster -- will not bite any flame baits either.

Question from a non-techie guy -

Someone mentioned T-90 is favoured because of its speed required during coldstart.

Now what is the max speed of Arjun that disqualifies it from being part of the doctrine ?

Shukrias in advance !!

Thanks - Stick to that resolution and you will have no issues.

Oh Joy

Got the following

No person with T 72 combat experience was ever involved in T 90 selection process.


One person with T 72 combat experience was brought in for 30 minutes for the Arjun design in mid 90s

Answer from a non expert guy -- both T 90 and Arjun have similar speeds both for max as well as cross country -- they also have similar cross country performance. Arjun is indeed better on various specs even if by a small margin in some cases.

I don't think speed will be a factor which will preclude the use of Arjun is cold start -- in fact IMVHO Arjun will be better with its higher armor gun etc etc.

The only possible major problem can be if it can not make a sustained dash without breaking down that will make it unfit for cold start; the other possible problem could be that a much bigger logistical footprint may mean that getting a Arjun regiment off the base and into the enemy area difficult from a peace time station or would make it difficult for the support column to keep up. The other possible problem could be lack of bridges which will take the weight of Arjuns since bridges are designed for bearing max weight and not ground pressure.

Note -- I list possible factors and am not saying that these will necessarily be issues.

I agree with the reliability part, but I just cannot buy the rest of the arguement. Its like saying I have Mig-21 and there is no way I can buy Su-30MKI cos I don't have the infrastructure to maintain it and I will need 2 Pilots for every plane among other reasons.

It boils down to capabilities and doctrine among others. Does IA want to use a more robust tank (I am assuming Arjun is better than T-90 even if marginaly)? If yes, everything else comes at a cost and might have to build the infrastructure from ground up. If not, stop the development of Arjun, cos that arguement is not going to go away unless Arjun MarkII is a sub 40 ton tank.

Its more than marginally better. We had umpteen threads on that.

Its more survivable,more protected, better armoured, more powerful, more accurate yada yada and has potential for growth.

The T series is a dead end

Considering that Cold Start means for us to punch through enemy lines in a coordinated armor attack, it would be essential for the attacking tanks to have exceptional fire-on-the-move capability and extremely good First hit capability... in other words, we'll need weapons with a significant advantage over TSPAn T-80s and Al-Khalis.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that the T-90 has a definite advantage over there... the Arjun, with its Hydrogas suspension and the stabilized rifled gun, as well as the extremely good electronics; has a clear advantage in all three areas- fire on the move, sensors, and long range accuracy & First hit probability.

Except for the possible logistical challenges wrt weight (not width, since Arjun is only 7 cm wider than the T-90), I don't really see why Arjun is at any disadvantage. Its Ground pressure is lower, and transmission is extremely efficient, which makes all the difference in desert mobility, which the Arjun is made for, as compared to the T-90 which is really a winter machine. As for the logistics, we can always improve them... we must. If the lightest tank in its class itself is too heavy, then its not a problem with the tank; its a problem with the logistics.

I'd say the Arjun is more mobile, much more lethal, even when mobile, and has the sufficient armor to take hits and keep moving. Thats also important... how can we expect to punch a 20 km deep hole into Pakistan AND HOLD IT, if we start with 100 tanks and end up with only 20? We need tanks that can survive battles, and unfortunately, T-90 seems to lack that clear advantage over our opponents.

;o) Surya, I was being polite to non-believers.....

Indeed that would be a valid comparison; to add please note I mention it as a one of the minor factors -- and indeed the requirement of say bases where a Su 30 can be staged vs a Mig 21 can be staged (few spares; easy to maintain; already proliferated in services) will add a constraint on Su 30 operations. Particularly in quick reaction situations where there may not be time to move the logistical foot print to the base. (Yes I know air to air refueling fixes the problem to an extent) but that is precisely the point I was trying make.



I agree with the above; but my point is that to support the Arjuns in cold start additional focus would be needed; to continue the above example -- the problem can be fixed by proliferating and standardizing on Su 30 and making more bases to support that. For Arjun it can also be done by suitably investing in logisitics -- IF that can not be done; it would make Arjun a "little" difficult to be used in QR roles but would still leave many other roles. Also note that there is no reason to assume that the investment will not be done; but it will be factor to consider is all I am saying.

I agree I too am only of talking of logistical challenges but not only weight but maintainability as well. (if it turns out that it is a issue; remember we are still guessing to an extent)

Sanku, you are missing my point. Everything I have read so far has had contradictions from various news about one question i.e Does IA see a definitive role (offensive/defensive, Cold start, etc.) for Arjun or not?

I could not decipher a clear answer (I know there are several news and Goverment releases saying they want to induct it). To me everything falls in place once that question is answered definitivley by IA. Especially in what role. The best I have read so far is when JJ Singh said we will have to see where Arjun can play a role in IA.

If IA doesn't have a clue by now what role Arjun will play, what chance do you think does the tank have of getting inducted? Everything esle when seen from this point is semantics.

Please note the context -- I was only talking of pure cross country traversal.

I am not a dis-believer.

D_berwal

who did the tests on T 90? Which unit?

IMVHO IA is still in the process of understanding the beast -- nothing wrong in that -- this includes trying to see the maintainability and reliability issue and fix the logistical train.

OTOH the Cold-start is already a op. doctrine today -- even when there are no Arjuns.

I would not fault IA for trying to see how to best fit Arjun rather than shoe horning it into existing notions -- but thats me.

But when we're fighting a short, intense blitzkreig operation as envisioned by Cold Start, would maintainability be so much more important than the great advantage that the Arjun provides? If it can operate reliably for a few days, till the holding Corps are brought in, I think that issue wouldn't be much of a problem, would it?? Plus, I think reliability isn't so much of an issue, only the maintainance. But then, it is a complex tank, and all that technology has to have a cost, wouldn't it?

Yes Sir; but that will depend on the final reliability and maintainability figures wouldn't it. If they are fine (as expected) there should indeed be no problems.

But as you mention the technology will have a cost -- and we must also understand the cost -- which is not same as not being able to pay it -- but being ready to pay it.

I dont know what is the argument about, is all this because we all dont have much to talk/contribute on the military forum these days .

fwiw the DDM story quoting certain IA officer no way indicates IA giving up on the Arjun programme, or not inducting the tank itself.Failure of a certain module (engine/transmission) of one of the tanks participating in the trial does not neccessarily imply that it is a chornic problem with all other tanks.Heck infact report doesn't even give out the exact nature of the problem.

As for the Arjun vs T-90 debate well IA's pov says it all i.e. the two are not even in the same class and hence no comparative trials, I will leave it for the wise junta and their interpretation.

Some how past army parliamentary replies seem to be under question. If they can fake engine problems in this report, I wonder what all they have faked in past reports (good or bad).

Except that the Army guy took the opportunity to slam the Arjun performance as "extremely poor", rather than give the committee an unbiased, objective overview of the results. By Ajai Shukla's story, there was no problem with the engines. So why did the rep misrepresent that fact?

The problem as i see it isn't so much the tank's performance, as it is the Army's response to it.



Then why was it that the Army was so loudly and stridently asking for comparative trials, only to suddenly do an about turn after Ashwamedh? Doesn't that sound fishy to you?

The point about weight class is also total bull - both are MBTs, both have the same role, and by that logic, both should be pitted against each other and compared.

OK full circle -- how do we know who is right and who is wrong w.r.t. engine and whether there is confusion between the engine and transmission when the parliamentary board took down the details ?

This is exactly where we started.



Apart from the "language" there is little else to comment on IAs response.





To me it sounds they are now on board.



Except if they agree that Arjun is great but dont want unnecessary negative publicity to demotivate the T 90 blokes -- whom does the slang out help? Not us; who does it hurt -- surely IA itself.

You are bang on the target.