Bharat Rakshak

We would be buying second hand stuff from US as wel most likely if we go for the 126 fighter aircraft contract. They are set to retire f-16 an f-18
by 2020 and its a nice way to retire aircraft . Sell to India with new paint.

can easily happen for real..remember what happened to Algeria with its MiG-29SMTs? they were sold old refurbished airframes that had been kept in storage for a while instead of brand new jets that Algeria paid and contracted for.

there was a report in HAL's own journal about how a Royal Nepal Army pilot had initially had reservations about the Dhruv, but after flying it, claimed that it was the most wonderful helo he'd flown ever.

Junk from Britain

The Pioneer Edit Desk

Why did India buy second-rate Hawks?

Three months since they were inducted into the Indian Air Force, the British-made Hawk fighter-trainers have been grounded for a second time. The most recent episode comes after a Hawk plane crashed in Bidar, Karnataka. Investigations have suggested that some of the components of the plane were old and rusted. The Hawks have also been reported for technical snags and shortage of spare parts. While only 10 of the 66 planes India has agreed to buy have arrived, IAF circles are already wondering if they have been led into a Rs 8,000-crore dud deal. It is astonishing that the British company that won the contract after hectic lobbying has supplied faulty planes. It is even more astonishing that the technical checks that the IAF, the Defence Ministry and other Government agencies were required to make cleared these shoddy and accident-prone planes and actually permitted Indian pilots to fly them. It is not surprising that cynical Indians should smell a scandal. Indeed, Congress Governments and British defence and aviation deals have a dubious past. India's first defence swindle was the Jeep purchase of 1948. The country paid for first-rate vehicles for use by the Army in the war against Pakistan. What eventually arrived were World War II discards, some of which could not be driven out of the port because there was no engine inside. If the Jeep scandal was India's first introduction to the infamous and Mephistophelean VK Krishna Menon, the Westland helicopter deal anticipated the Bofors mess that eventually formed the most salient memory of the Rajiv Gandhi Government. In 1986, the then Prime Minister forced the public sector Pawan Hans Corporation to buy 21 helicopters from a British company that was shutting down. A series of technical faults and crashes followed. The helicopters were eventually discarded as junk and lined up at an unused airport in Mumbai. Needless to say, kickbacks and sweetheart transactions were alleged in both the Jeep and Westland affairs. Is the Hawk following in their footsteps?

There is reason to be suspicious and cautious. This is an election year and one in which the UPA Government is promising to commit to some of the largest defence purchases in Indian history. Over the past four years, wherever else it may have surrendered to its allies, the Congress has kept the Defence portfolio with itself and packed the upper echelons of the Ministry with civil servants of decidedly partisan credentials. After the Hawk failures, it is impossible to trust the defence establishment and ignore the discomforting feeling that political rather than professional considerations played their part. Mr Manmohan Singh has been seen as a weak and ineffective Prime Minister but even his critics have not questioned his honesty. Given the contested and contentious nature and history of arms deals in Indian politics, it would be best for him, and for his personal legacy, to institute a thorough and transparent inquiry into the Hawk embarrassment. British authorities, commercial and governmental, must be forced to collaborate, if necessary under threat of cancellation of the rest of the contract. Accounts of their Indian interlocutors, where these don't impinge upon national security, should be made public. The Prime Minister must realise that when it comes to defence deals, Congress Governments are guilty until proven otherwise.

No new Mig-29 SMT are being manufactured. Algerian contract specified using air frames kept in storage, updated to SMT standard. There is lot of politics behind Algerian fiasco - French variety.

Arun_S,

Pioneer seems to be defying the dark lords.

I thought the hawk deal was signed by NDA govt in 2004, and not by UPA.

> The UK government will confirm standards of construction and quality employed by British Aerospace Systems to address Indian concerns of safety.

According to an investigation by Argentine and Uruguayan Air Forces, the pitot tube - the primary instrument for measuring the aircraft's airspeed - froze when the aicraft passed through a cloud, blocking the instrument and causing it to give a false reading. Compounding this problem was the failure of the alarm designed to report such a malfunction (raising serious questions about inspection irregularities by the Argentine Air Force). Thinking that the aircraft was flying at dangerously low speeds, the pilots increased power to the engines. Far from flying at the low speed reported by the instruments however, the aircraft was actually flying well outside its safe cruising speed, and far above a safe speed for deploying slats. During the deployment of the slats, one was ripped off by the force of the high speed airflow travelling over the wing, which caused the plane to become unflyable and enter a steep descent.

During the descent, the black box recorded an increase in the plane's speed from 300 to 800 km/h in three seconds, which could only signify the sudden unfreezing of the pitot tube. Specialists predicted that the plane crashed perpendicularly to the ground at a speed of 1200 km/h, leaving a crater 70 metres wide and 10 deep

Airspeed is a measurement of the plane's speed relative to the air around it. The pitot (pronounced pee-toe) static tube system is an ingenious device used by airplanes and boats for measuring forward speed. The device is really a differential pressure gauge and was invented by Henri Pitot in 1732. An example of an air pressure gauge is a tire pressure gauge.
The open end of the pitot tube, usually mounted on a wing, faces toward the flow of air or water. The air speed indicator actually measures the difference between a static sensor not in the air stream and a sensor (pitot tube) in the air stream. When the airplane is standing still, the pressure in each tube is equal and the air speed indicator shows zero. The rush of air in flight causes a pressure differential between the static tube and the pitot tube. The pressure differential makes the pointer on the air speed indicator move. An increase in forward speed raises the pressure at the end of the pitot tube. In turn, the air pressure pushes against a flexible diaphragm that moves a connected mechanical pointer on the face of the indicator. The indicator is calibrated to compensate for winds in the air or the speed of the opposing current in the water. In airplanes, electronics also compensate for altitude and air temperature to make the air speed measurement accurate.

Indian air force grounds Hawk fleet following first crash
By Craig Hoyle

The Indian air force has temporarily grounded its fleet of BAE Systems Hawk 132 advanced jet trainers, following the first crash involving the newly inducted type.

One of 10 BAE-manufactured Hawks to have been put into service at Bidar air base in February,[b] the aircraft suffered extensive damage following an aborted take-off on 29 April, according to air force sources quoted in the Indian media. One crew member ejected from the aircraft, while the other escaped after it came to a rest on the runway, according to a Times of India report.

Kartik: God knows but when aircraft has one seat eject event the touchdown will be very very hard. IMHO it is given that the undercarriage is sheared and torn apart the fuselage integrity is questionable till goes a full body X-ray (they don't have that in India) and sending the airframe to UK will push the repair cost closer to Cat-3 write-off.

One may compare a similar crash of IJT Sitara at Aero India, that was a lucky but controlled crash landing, and the damage was sever. Anyone knows if they Cat-3 that airframe or salvaged it?

BTW what is the cost threshold currently in force in IAF for Cat-1, Cat2, Cat-3?

Oh BTW that pilot who stayed in cockpit should be recognized and given a medal to not abandon ship and try to save the plane at grave peril to his own life.
3 Cheers for the brave pilot.

Also the pilot who didnt eject - there could be many reasons for it . 1) he genuinely tried to save the ac 2) he doesnt have much faith in ejection seats. 3) he didnt have the time to eject 4) he was fairly experienced enough to recognise that going thru the wall will not kill him. 5) many other reasons which we dont have an idea about.

Actually since the gora did not die, you can close this tread. No fun!

Humm ..... never heard that.
Did this ever happen in IAF?

[.....plenty of times - Pilots tend to have more faith in thier flying and handling skills rather than in the ejection seats. You can call it overconfidence to an extent. It also has something to with the false sense of security that being seated in the cockpit environment gives to a pilot. ....

Also the pilot who didnt eject - there could be many reasons for it . 1) he genuinely tried to save the ac 2) he doesnt have much faith in ejection seats. 3) he didnt have the time to eject 4) he was fairly experienced enough to recognise that going thru the wall will not kill him. 5) many other reasons which we dont have an idea about. My guess is it is premature to do both - both to condemn them or to call for medals for them.

for jet "trainers" for certain type of situations, is it possible to have the jet, shut off just after the button is pressed for ejection by pilot, and then just like the pilot comes escapes, the jet could also escape crash landing by deploying a chute? i know this sounds weird, but it would help a lot in investigations.. may be the industries dont want to get them assed up, and they would not venture into such advanced saving devices for inspections.

Parachute system can save small planes

The company's most advanced parachute right now can accommodate nearly 4,000 pounds. While small planes can weigh up to 2,000 pounds and cruise about 175 miles per hour, regional jets weigh 80,000 pounds and fly at more than 600 miles per hour.

That's why Ballistic Recovery Systems is working with NASA — which gave it $670,000 for research — to design a new generation of emergency parachutes that would work on small jets and could be steered by pilots as they drift to the ground.

Some pilots insist they'll never fly without a parachute. "People are crazy not to fly with them," said William Graham of San Diego, an instructor pilot whose plane landed beneath a parachute this spring near Stockton, Calif., after it unexpectedly flipped upside down at 16,000 feet. Graham, who was flying with his wife, Barbara, said they drifted onto a farm field so gently the landing didn't break fragile Christmas ornaments and glass bottles aboard the plane.

the reluctance to leave a safe, known and familiar environment .

" I inform everyone that the Hawk's poor servicability in the IAF is NOT due to operational defects in the machine, but could be due to poor contract management, spares inventory or other support factors. Talk about kangaroo courts! "

Ved sir, the above are not my words.

[quote="John Snow
That brings us to the question,
1) Service schedules were not followed by IAF

a) components that need to be serviced were not
b) components were not stocked to replace those that need to be.
c) improper training


2) If above is true then its derliction of duty.

3) If the above is true IAF engineering branch screwed up again.


Whoa....! A parrallel kangaroo court!! Tell me, guys.... anything against avoiding conclusions, outlining possibilities WORTH CONSIDERING, and awaiting real investigations?!!

I think the pitot tube in the aircraft failed.
It was giving incorrect air speed for the pilot to take off, it must have been under reporting the air speed, making the trainee to increase the speed of taxing and thereby coming to the point of take off but not able to do so. The ejected pilot must have been the HM subject, where as the pilot still trying to cope with a/c must be the young IAF chap.