Bharat Rakshak

Pioneer always has good editorials.

One question that begs answer is why DRDO changed its position that Agni-III needs 3 more tested before being operational in Dec-2007, TO "no-more test and ready for operational"??

Also notice Agni-IV range is declared to be 6000Km in Dec-07, as against 5000Km claimed now.

India close to developing Agni-IV

from the pioneer edit.


That kind of qualifies this missile for use with conventional munitions.

Not really, with conventional warheads you need to have cep of 5 m or less unless you are talking about MOAB/FOAB/GFOAB.
With 20m CEP conventional warheads won't be good enough for anyrhing other than scud style hitting waywardly in civilian populace. I hope we won't emulate such tactics ever.

Or else you must have saturation fire like that from MBRLS.

Also, if you have to hit someone that far away, economy dictates that you use the big one.
Anyway, the country being targeted will assume the payload to be nuclear and act on that assumption. Better do it properly the first time than leave it to second strike !!

The Pentagon has proposed "Prompt Global Strike"

Didnt Putin say that any Russian detection of US ICBM launch would invite automatic nuclear retaliation ? (without waiting to see if the warheads were conventional or not). I thought the program was sent into deep freeze mode after that.

Folks, would really appreciate if you post links pertaining to these reports/events.

IIRC the funding was cut off by the Congress

here's that nice PGS article from pop mech
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 03874.html
A more "focused" pdf on prompt global strike ( has some points about the warheads to be used)
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001missiles/bille.pdf


seriously 20 m ain't that bad and it's only going to improve. with 20 m you can target certain fortifications and static targets such as large bridges etc.
Of course the warhead will have to be FAE, millimetre wave sensor or the new generation of reactive explosives (Dial a yield) that are coming on line.
AFAIR, Rumsfeld was a great proponent of the TICBM idea. He once snorted and said "everybody would know that the warhead is conventional". .

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/05/r ... evolu.html


P.S : red mercury would be great too.

20m is excellent for a nuclear warhead - that is hard target killing capability.

we don't need Agnis for bridges and strategic targets or bunker busters. those qualifies for smarter bombs, that need 1-2 meter precision. We have la brahmos or similar ranged modified missiles or our future cruise missiles that need that kind of precision carrying sub-kilos.

just think about a thermo and talking you are just 20 m away.

Before once can get 20m accuracy, one has to know the precise position of the target and launcher with better than 20m accuracy.

Question is:
1.) How does one determine precisely the coordinate of a target few thousands kilometer away with 20m accuracy?

2.) What co-ordinate system is used for the purpose?

3.) Does one have map of the whole world built using that chosen co-ordinate system?

Except for H&D and gratification of building big fiery launch, What good it is to build a missile with 5000 Km range if:

1.) One doesn't have reliable/usable high yield, light weight weapons to arm it?

2.) The military does not yet have co-ordinate systems identified for use of ballistic missiles (All maps are for infantry/armored style war).

3.) The military does not yet have maps for ballistic missile suitable co-ordinate systems.

Unfortunate but that is the state of Indian military. Indian military has two types of co-ordinate systems and the national/regional maps are fragmented between the two. Talk of far off places the situation is quite bad.

That is the reason why human in the loop is the only reliable method of Indian nuke delivery system, because only humans can read that map and visually apply correction. (Rtd.) AM Asthana was not being parochial when he gave that last interview. He is retired but not retard.

A fully automated long range weapons delivery requires more infrastructure than just missile.

When Cartosat and then IRNSS have worked in tandem for few years one will then have closed the circle and have the capability to print the maps that are accurate to few meters.

Till then enjoy the big flame racing up the sky... ... . .

Maybe this time the flight parameters were close to nominal and it was a stressing trajectory. So why bother. The other two tests can be user trials na?

another point to consider is la pok-2, before the political wing takes over, its better test everything we want within the scope drdo developing future missile systems, and when we can't do anything cause political club says, unkil does not like testing something later.. or that we have signed some treaty yadi yada..

its better drdo, package the future into the current.

Drumrollll ....... Let the speculation begin on what manner of beastie be this “confidentialâ€

instead of trident with conventional warhead I think they are proposing
a Agni-I type missile onboard the DD21 ships for quick reaction strikes
on targets from few 100s km away.

maybe they figured out SLCM are easy to detect both on radar and visual
means so the ISI phones the targets to hide long before the CMs reach
targets. with a IRBM type attack there is no warning that ISI types can
provide.

Of course, Cartosat and IRNSS will help make more accurate maps for targeting purposes. But, I feel it is wrong to say that without these, the maps cannot be made. After all, how did the USSR/China make such maps in the 70's ? Even then, wont IRNSS mean we have maps for regional range only ?

Arunji,
Are you implying that right now, Agni II, Agni III etc are meaningless as they cannot be targeted ? Surely, DRDO etc would not be such incompetents ! We cannot
afford to rely on aircraft for delivery of nukes. The probability of an aircraft delivering a nuke on a chinese city is 0. Even tsp relies on BMs only. Do they somehow have targeting capability that we dont ?

Why should it take years to make the necessary maps ? You seem to imply that operational ballistic missiles are a decade or so away, as NPA's keep saying.

In general, while we should make the case for an accelerated build up of strategic missiles and warheads, we should not run down our current capabilities.

3D terrain contour maps are needed for CMs that match what they see to
their onboard database.

for BMs I thought a good INS was all they needed ? their launch position
is locked in and after launch they can accurately determine their position
relative to the launch position without any further reference to external
data. thats how they are immune to all jamming.

Pershing-II used some terminal radar guidance but dont think IRBM/ICBM
use it now.

as to whats the location of targets per GPS, I am sure indian "tourists"
with garmin/tomtom gps or even google earth can help pinpoint the
co-ordinates for our database ?

and once glonass is back on its feet cant the RV also consult it until
it reenters the atmosphere and the "plasma" buildup cuts off all RF comms? even the civilian gps could be used today I suppose from RV...

BM requires knowing the exact launcher and target position in 3 dimension.

There is zameen Aasmaan Ka differnce between 20m accuracy and 500m accuracy.

Recall that Prithvi is fired from pre-surveyed sites to a target (say 200 or 300 km away). There is a reason why surveying is required for BM. and Prithvie's accuracy requirement was no were close to 20 m. If maps were that good (and here we are talking of within Indian territory) there would be no need for surveyed launched pad and target. Long range requires even more surveying accuracy.

In the 60's and 70 or even 80's the missile powers had great difficulty in getting accurate coordinates. At best some datums at foreign lands can be baseline and the military target can then be differentiated.

The final missile delivery accuracy is the net sum of the error in target designation PLUS the Missiles Navigation accuracy PLUS the delivery process variance.

So a net variance of few Km did require Mega-tonnage yield to be of some consequence. Thus counter value city targeting was made feasible.

Agni can as of now do counter value attack, but to think of 20m accuracy just because INS has that accuracy does not translate to 20m system accuracy required for precision counter force engagement with small yield Nuke weapons much less conventional payload. It is particularly true for non-static targets.

Today if India has to take out Paki nuclear staging area near Chagai what are the chances that it has got the cartographic coordinate of the target right as good as pre-surveyed site inside India?

Use of strategic weapons using unkills GPS as nav tool aboard RV is destined for condom failure when you don't want it to fail. Because unkill gets the launch keys to your use/efficacy of your N weapons/missiles. (the pin to make the condom fail)

Cartosat's 3 D geodesic mapping is essential missing element to effective use of Indian Missile program. It will allow for use of missiles in war fighting role and not just dooms day high yield counter value role.

They did not. They compensated for the total error with the Mega tonnage high yield weapons. and that too in th beginning they chose big city counter value targets.



Against cities yes they are meaningful. Against military targets at long distance, questionable.

Accepting complexities in acheving accuracy laid out by you, there are other options besides GPS.

Note accuracy and coverage outside Indian territory .

From ISRO :



And from G. Madhavan Nair via PIB :

Double post. Self deleted.

[quote="arun"]Drumrollll ....... Let the speculation begin on what manner of beastie be this “confidentialâ€

There are two aspects to the accuracy of a counter-force BM. One is knowing accurately the coordinates of the target. The other is the accuracy of the INS itself onboard the BM with error-correcting feed from a positioning system like GPS, GLONASS etc. For the former, we need Cartosat and the latter IRNSS.

And mark my words on 2 counts:

1.) Agni-IIAT is the one that will mass produced (as compared to limited prodn of A-II)

2.) The big diameter nose is uniary armed, thus has no constrain of small diameter that Agni-III with a SUM imposes in it. So this will carry the IDIOT PROOF China specific Boosted Fission weapon.

Chacha will have no quomes on its test or deployment; just that it only has problem if India gets armed with a light-weight hi-yield weapon.

You said it perfectly.

yup the space component has to be in place for any BM counterforce prescription. But this is an option that needs to be explored , if only as a recourse in the event that the enemy comes up with really sophisticated CM defences.

the chinese are already moving towards arming their BMs ( albeit short ranged, as of now) for attack on naval targets at sea. they have no dearth of access to Moskit/sun-burn type systems , but they still plan to keep the BM option on the table. Because , I have a feeling they realize that the Americans are not going to let their precious carriers become obsolete so easily . In the future we will probably see new generation DEWs bristling on U.S carriers and other critical targets that make successful assaults with Cruise missiles suffer a dramatic decline in probability.

Moreover they probably realize that the Americans would target the missile carrying platform itself and it is better to attack from a distance . However, if the distance required is something like a thousand miles a cruise missile is gonna take eons to reach a target and is liable to be intercepted. this where a fast BM really comes in Handy.

Has anyone put up the pic of the model of Agni-5 which was in the Hindu (along with senior scientists heading the missile programmes)? It could be scaled to get accurate dimensions.

I think this is the image you are talking about, it has been captioned as Agni V but it seems to be only the Agni 3TD.

Arun Hats off to you and your brilliant work , you saw this much before any one thought this ever existed

India to test 5,000 km range, Agni-IV IRBM at year-end.

With a second successful test of the 3,500 km intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM), Agni-III, already in the bag, Indian defence scientists are planning to test a long range 5,000 km, IRBM by the end of the year.

According to Aviansh Chander, project director, the planning process for the test launch of the Agni-IV was in the final stages, now that the Agni-III had reached the stage of operationalisation. He indicated Monday that test flights could be scheduled for the end of the year, once government clearance was received.

According to Chander, an intercontinental range of 5,000-km would be achieved by strapping a solid fuel propellant-powered, third stage booster rocket on an Agni-III missile.

The second test of the Agni-III essentially tested the system's repeatability and reliability without any major technological additions as compared to the test carried out in April last year.

Apart from the longer range Agni series missiles, India will also test its ''special naval missile,'' an euphemism used by DRDO scientists for a submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM), as well as conduct a second test of an 'interceptor' missile. These tests are likely to be undertaken in the September-October period.

According to M Natarajan, director general, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), his scientists were "heavily engaged" in the special naval missile project. He, however, refused to be drawn out on when India's first nuclear submarine would roll out. "The Advance Technology Vehicle, as the nuclear submarine project is known, is not my project," Natarajan told reporters, when queried if the probable 2009 launch schedule for the submarine would be adhered to.

Agni-IV
Last year December, VK Saraswat, chief controller, R&D (missiles and strategic systems), DRDO, had said that the organisation had begun work on Agni-IV, a 5,000 km range missile, to provide ''enough capability'' for a credible deterrence to the country. ''Work on the 5,000 km range missile is on and the first trial is expected to take place in early 2009,'' he said.

According to Saraswat, the Agni-IV, would have many new features, including anti-ballistic counter measures and rocket motor systems with composite materials to improve the thrust-to-weight ratio. It would also be equipped with stealth technology and be more accurate than missiles of a similar class, providing improved mobility and higher energy.

Sarawat had said then that the Agni-IV would not be an inter-continental ballistic missile, but a long range one. According to Saraswat, the Agni-III and IV were the building blocks for missiles with an intercontinental reach.

According to defence scientists, all major technologies for long range missiles have been realised with the two successful tests of the Agni-III missiles. The first successful test took place in April last year.

These technologies include high-power booster, multi-stage vehicles, re-entry technologies, which would allow aero-thermal loads to be sustained at very high Mach numbers along with a potent navigation system to maintain accuracy throughout the flight path.

According to Dr Saraswat, missiles in the range of 2,000-5,000 km would provide India ''enough capability'' to field a ''credible deterrence.''

He also said that depending on existing or emerging threats the need may arise for a 10,000 km range missile in the future. These are generally referred to as the 'Surya' class of missiles and will constitute India's inter-continental ballistic missile capability.

According to Dr Saraswat, India was also developing a ''long endurance,'' long range cruise missile that will fly at high subsonic speeds. Subsonic cruise missiles enable delivery of payloads at low cost and are generally difficult to detect because of their ability to fly at low altitudes.

IISC develops technology for increasing range of missiles

Arunji: Thanks for the clarification. Of course, military targeting is very different from targeting cities and will indeed require all the infrastructure that you are talking about.

Will the Agni III and variants ever be produced on a reasonable scale ? Maybe a purely 2 stage Agni III TD without SUM has no diameter constraint. Such an entity would be a "better performing" analog of the SS-20. Why go for Agni II AT when such an option is available ?

All of a sudden there is no talk of Agni IV . Is it because the Agni IV had in effect, been tested this time ? They also say that the Agni V will be scaled up from Agni III. Hope it is the size of an SS-24 and hope the political establishment has the spine to wield it.

I think the IISc should have kept this secret for a while. instead of blurting out Loudly the exact method like coating etc.
It only makes our neigbours more curious and determined to peek or manipulate other projects in our country.
Anyways they have done some great work there. Salute to them.

Whats this long range cruise missile?
Also,which is the 5000 km "IRBM"...Agni IV or Agni V....
The yindoos are confusing me onlee....

Seems govt has announced cash awards for AGNI-3 team members! They have realized the importance of what expertise means! good show!

India can now fire missiles from under water

[quote]The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the country's premier military research organisation, Monday said it had successfully acquired the technology to launch missiles from the ocean depths, becoming the world's fifth country to do so.

The acknowledgement came when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh gave away the performance excellence award 2007 to A.K Chakrabarti, under whose leadership a team of 86 scientists achieved the success under this project called K-15.

“The team has designed and developed a state-of-the-art missile system with the capability of being launched from sub-surface (underwater) environment,â€

This is something about navy i like. Army would have asked to prove it for the confidence and what not. Brahmos was developed faster because it was a naval project.

some nice pdfs on reducing drag in hypersonic flight, the first one deals directly with the incorporation of a drag reducing aerospike in a hypersonic missile.


http://techreports.larc.nasa.gov/ltrs/P ... 5-0737.pdf

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/nasacds/20040 ... 090730.pdf

explicit mention?



are they planning to use pop out prop fans?