Bharat Rakshak

I used to be here on BR since 1998 till 2000, but have been lurking for the last 8 years. I had to re-register as my old username has been blocked or outdated due to upgrading.

In the early years admins were overmoderating resulting in many leaving BR. Now there is a bit too much of personal snipes. Just cut that out and relax on the moderation and everything will be alright.

Otherwise the forum is good which I check out everyday.

Regards all.

Pathmarajah

My 2 paisa worth rhona-dhona.

I have been posting in BRF from 1999 and seen the yesteryears, I sometimes really lament the quality of discussions. As Shiv said, the
'dar-ul-jingo' brigade's sheer intolerance and disdain to any poster who differ with them is mind boggling. Most of the times, their scintillating ideas are bereft of any back up data, like Maoists being funded by Unkil, people against a political belief must be a commie-pinko-jhollawallah. They derive divine pleasure in lampooning Islam and any Islamic figure but if ever any poster says Hazrat Mohammed (Sallahu Alayi Wassalam), then rest assured he will be shoved out as a Paki lurker, jehadi infiltrator etc etc. Little do they understand that they only give credence to Paki propaganda of TSP being the only thekedars of Muslims in south Asia. This paranoic attitude will dienchant the more serious members who would be unwilling to make their way through the flotsum and jetsum. In the past we had great posts by Imtiaz Ahmed on economic issues, political analysis of SAARC regions not to metion posts of Salman and Badar. Now thanks to some members, BRF appears more like a fan site of a particular parivar where only people of a particular faith AND belief can romp around rather than a microcosm of entire India where people of divergent faiths coexist. In the past we had clash of ideas which sometimes turned nasty for which BRadmins had to ban religious discussions. But even then there were some saner elements in both the camps where some intellectual discussions were held on contentitous issues like Babari demolition rather than the present cat-calls. Kaushal, Prof. Raghu were quite nice in their behaviour although they resided in opposite poles compared to Narayan_L or Sujit Sanyal. Some of the old members have also changed a lot, they have taken a more hawkish stand. But at the end of the day, unless and until there is some tolerance towards others beliefs, the quality of discussions will continue to plummet. And please back your posts with some credible data, otherwise they are nothing but garbages.



You bet. Walking down the memory lanes, I remember being awarded "Pervez Musharraf Medal for Jehadic Glory" in the historical (s)laughter of democracy thread by a revered geek of Atlanta for violating those golden principles. Being a hard core woolen variety pinko, it is very difficult to reform myself but I will sincerely try and I certainly adhere to the 6th one (the most precious of the lot) unless and until clamour for another award in future.

OK, ppl,. enough of bashing Jingos. This does look like some conspiracy to evict the jingos & bring in commies/EJs/Jihadis into BRF.
Sorry ppl, Truth doesn't have versions. Our penchant to celebrate differences, diversity & indulge in multiculturalism has been exploited by the afore mentioned parties to trip us.
MSM & general public space is occupied by marxists, let BRF also not turn into another JNU.
Let BRF be for, of & by the jingos.
For commie/EJ/Jihadi & general anti-India propaganda/psy-ops we have the MSM.

I would like to enter my name in the contest for the post of Director - Promotion of Vice & Prevention of Virtue with addl charge of the FUD Directorate in BR's secure ground HQ up in the nandi hills.

GD you will be accussed of dragging down the esteemed standards of hallowed BRF by the thekedaars of family values.

Folks,

IMHO the thread has outlived its utility as a lot of regular posters (as well as the more slient ones) have shared their viewpoint. If I may hazard a summary of key points:
1. BRF used to be more technical in the earlier days, less so these days.
2. There is constant bickering leading to very strong views on various threads leading to dilution of discussion.
3. BRF "tolerates" a lot more right wing thoughts than it used to..
4. Admins are doing a great job
I completely agree with most of the points, especially point 4! The level of discussions here are really very good, despite all the problems and we need to move on and not self flagellate by questioning ourselves unnecessarily. IMHO an intelligent, rightist forum is the need of the hour for India and I really hope that BRF is seen as being one.
JMT and all that.

cheers,

Saumitra

Looks like like whine fest on how good old days were and what we have become. Here comes mine.
- I have been following BR sine 1998, started mostly by browsing pages on forces
- Learned a lot about India and forces by reading forum
- BR shifted focus from military affairs some time later to more political
- Everything was going good till folks started expressing their views openly, some of which was politically incorrect
- India Forum got forked off
- Lot of posts on military technical matters became speculative and personal insults were free flowing
- Admins always tried their best to keep some decorum but one can't be objective when topics discussed are more imaginary in nature
- These days I spent time mostly in Nukkad, IT, Infra, Psy Ops threads

Nice to hear from you again Shirish, and DANKs for the thought. That was the original wasn't it - before the "Indian Military Scenarios" thread.

Happy to see a lot of old names cropping up on this thread.

Amitayus has said exactly what I wanted to.

"Bharat" Rakshak is not a reflection of India, either in its members viewpoints or in tolerance.

Members are generally hawkish in the opinions and tend to take extreme positions. There is little support from moderators for moderation of those opinions or a nuanced approach. Talking of moderators, reactions such as
``Go read such and such book.`` is neither moderation nor a helpful comment.

Also, BR seems to derive pleasure in name-calling. Name calling has become a substitute for debates. Whether it is the PM of India, or the lowliest peon, they get support from BR only if they take an extremely jingoistic stance.

I go to several forums and only 2-5% make meaningful, informative and insightful posts. BR is no exception. BRites like to think that BR is ahead of the curve. In reality, they make so many doomsday predictions that some of them come true.

Added later.
I have been here since 1998. Nowadays the threads that appeal most to me are Indian Economy, Indian Infrastructure & Railways. They have got great content and its participants ensure that the debates are of very high quality.

Spot on.

Namecalling has indeed become a substitute for debate and explanation, and following the gleeful acceptance by a group of a name like "constable" or "traitor" or "liar" conjured up by leading opinion makers, the name/epithet itself subsequently serves to "say it all", no explanations are required and anyone who objects is shouted or mocked into silence.

This is the level of debate that BRF has descended to on occasion, but the self congratulation and backslapping never stopped.

BR has changed just like India has changed a lot since 1998. The so called 'leaning towards the right' in BR can be put down to a lot of young people with different views and attitudes joining BR as members.

BR mirrors the new rising India

It seems that some of the commie/pinko/'ultra secular' types jumped on the opportunity to try to 'reclaim' BRF for themselves. One of them describes himself as 'hard core woolen variety pinko'. As others already pointed out, these types already heavily dominate the public space in India. I really don't think that BRF too should be a forum were 'woolen language' is the norm and used to cover up the reality. I am glad that BRF is a place were people like me can speak their mind without immediately being banned.





Let me be perfectly clear here : Any 'religion' that exhorts it followers to kill non believers and apostates is not a religion, and should not be given the status of a religion. It is an ideology as evil as Nazism or Mao-ism, and does not deserve respect or tolerance. The problem in India is that truth is systematically suppressed and subverted for the sake of 'communal harmony'. Well, communal harmony was never achieved in this manner and I don't think this kind of communal harmony is worth having, we can all see what this kind of 'communal harmony' leads to : Islamization.

Let me throw in a few IMO's and observations ...

To people who feel others are being "attacked", and forum has gone down, and not what it was, seems to be the recurring theme.

1) Who is the judge ?, if a member isn't banned isn't that proof enough. To me the Admin's, have done a good job up to now, but it isn't a bad idea to ramp up the moderation. Especially those who get personal and don't follow the guide-lines (incl. myself) and all of the newcomers.

2) People want "quality", but they don't throw the hat in the ring (ie. lurk mode). It's like I will visit the thread, but when I leave, "my held views" should be adequately "protected", by who the other lurkers ?. I don't care if I will/ever meet the requirements, to keep the tamasha going, in the way a lurker wants it to pan out. And private mails aren't going to help, because an average poster causing the taqleef wouldn't know how he can make amends. So get off the horse and participate.

3) Then there is the "Once upon a time in the Nuke Thread" defense, I've noticed a lot of "who farted" behavior lately, but for the record "Commies and Karat" have been "footballed" in the true sense, never seen anybody complain about them or even put the thread in suspended animation, for it.

Later..

BR does not need to reflect the opinion of 'all' of India - but its core.

And yes, the rightward shift is the need of the hour. India is a Hindu majority country, and now the only Hindu country in the world albeit, unofficially). We need to cherish that - because if Hinduism falls - human society will become very drab indeed.

BR reflects India's majority opinion. End of story.
It was not always so, but I am happy with the evolution. So are many others. It will become

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Guys, you need to understand that the impact of BR extends far beyond the few members we have.

A lot of us tend to forget the impact on a lot of members of the media. Remember when the Indian Express(?) plagiarised Arun's work on Indian ballistic missile? That was just a symptom. Many journos read this forum but would never admit it in public. They lift ideas straight from a member or two, and pass it as their.

Ah well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


Oh, one more related point. Because BR is an opinion maker, it has often been the target of disinformation campaigns in the past - and will likely to become so in the future. We need to be careful on that regard.


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Everything that we do here has value - not just the info/insight given by the gurus.


The repetition of debates also has value, because live debates attract new readers.

Dumb question have a value because a lot of people in India are so confussed about the issues that they would never ask dumb questions. BR has led the way in clearing the air in many matters, and in countering disinformation.

Multatuli I believe you are confusing polite and diplomatic language with hiding the truth.

The topic of islamism exists on BR primarily because I bludgeoned them through after Kaushal started it off and was rapidly pushed into a minority on BRF.

What I am referring to is the replacement of politeness in debate with one size fits all descriptions and the dumbing down of nuances to "pinko" and "right wing". Many so called rightwingers have pinko sides to them and many pinkos have right wing sides.

Opinions that try to clarify such view are pounced upon in a mindless drive to fit everyone into "Leftwing pinko" or "rightwing Hindutva" mold. That is what the press and political parties do. I was hoping that BRF could be more discriminating.

Re: Islamism threads:

A lot of initial indignation was grounded in the fear that the harsh truth may hurt. But a good balance was found thanks to Shiv's persistence.

The point is to not shy away from the truth, but also not to be unnecessarily hurtful.

Reminds me of a shloka:

Shiv Guru,

I agree with that, discussions should of course be polite. But what I refer to is people using the 'nuanced approach' to do equal-equal's. I am glad that people here take a moral stand. We should censure ourself to be 'tolerant' to this or that group, particularly if that group itself is violently intolerant or to 'promote communal harmony'.

Shivji, you know of course that it´s not just the politicians who subvert facts and the truth in India, there is an entire army of mercenary 'intellectuals' and 'journalists' who have specialised in 'being nuanced' and 'promoting communal harmony'. They are like prostitutes.

The word "prostitutes" is a problem here, and should not have been used. Your painstaking description was good enough - but dumbing it down to "prostitutes" is all that people will remember and use.

That is what I am getting at.

Unfortunately - there may be a serious consequence of not allowing unparliamentary language - and that consequence is the total and complete defeat of all "rightwing jingos" by the more sophisticated pinko/liberal crowd. This is what happens on the public space, although less so nowadays with a few effective people showing up

"Rightwing" jingos other than a few like Shourie, Kaushal, Balagangadhara etc have wasted no time in collecting their arguments and putting them down in effective and usable language and they therefore appear like bloodthirsty savages or pathetic mourners. But I must point out that the arguments and thought processes for the other crowd has already been worked out by rhetorician mullahs and commies anyway, and are readily available for re use. People who oppose them MUST develop the ready made language and rhetoric.

BRF is also a platform to develop polite and effective communication skills.

Touché

So Shiv, since you brought this topic up and have gotten views since last 3 pages, could you please clarify:

Is there going to be a change in Mod policy and if so in what direction?
Are there going to be new admins?

Just curious.

There are some factual and philosophical inaccuracies here :

>>Little do they understand that they only give credence to Paki propaganda of TSP being the only thekedars of Muslims in south Asia.
The idea that the only way to counter paki claim of being the sole representative of SA muslims is to give up one's Hindu identity is a favourite one of Indian secularists. However, this idea has become less and less effective as Hindus have developed a thick skin and have learnt to answer violence with violence (both internal and external).


>>Now thanks to some members, BRF appears more like a fan site of a particular parivar where only people of a particular faith AND belief can romp around rather than a microcosm of entire India where people of divergent faiths coexist
It is not our fault that some people continue to believe that BJP is anti minority.


>>Some of the old members have also changed a lot, they have taken a more hawkish stand.
India itself has become hawkish. By pointing to a few members, you are unconciously trying to deny the larger picture of a changed and moreconfident Hindu society.



The following apply to you too:
1. And please back your posts with some credible data, otherwise they are nothing but garbages.
2. sheer intolerance and disdain to any poster who differ with them is mind boggling

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FYI, I used to be a secularist. My position started changing when my father's unit was posted to Kashmir. Some people I knew never came back. That was the time when an arch secularist like Weepy Singh described these murderers as 'mis-guided youth'.

For me, that phrase sums up the entire unethical attitude of India towards Hindus.

THAT'S why hindus mass migrated away from this western import. And not because of any propoganda machinery of the Sangh Parivar.

I think besides hoping for revival of BRM/SRR, we should also acknowledge the great journalistic work done by N^3 and Rangudu outside the BR.

Rangudu's well written articles appearing at the right time in influential publications definitely gave a high to the forum.

More of that is needed too. That is, BR besides being a forum for all, and being a publisher of researched articles in BRM/SRR kind of efforts, also inspires forays into publications outside of BR.

I also request members to be less cryptic. Using cryptic language entertains only a small clique who comprehend and perhaps revel in that. But the larger educational role of the forum must not be ignored or underestimated. As John Snow mentioned Miss Nimbu-Pani may need things explained to her in a bit more detail, but educating her ilk is still a positive for the forum.

Yes - I will take on powers to boot out people by clicking on their names ..

But seriously we are looking at a few new admins. Some names are doing the rounds and those people will get invites.

There are a couple of other suggestions as well which will come out when the decisions are actually made.

Since BR is more organized (la mil setup) I suggest Rankings of posters. People can chose to be in airforce, navy or army. A symbol is attached on these ranks just like the location tag under the user id.

Ranking is made by admin, based on the quality of posts. That way, we are engaging the admins to comit on leaderships and future administrative teams.

On the same line an user ID can have color codes. Green colored user id, is not banned and welcome. Yellow is warned.. Red is banned for 1 month. And later no id at all if totally banned.

2c

No, I think Shiv's idea of discretionary immediate ban to those who are considered to be contributing nothing more than their trolling skills, vindictive or foul language or personal attacks is the way to go.

Generally speaking, the quality of debate on BR has been dramatically lowered, loudness has replaced reason, and I have also observed a tendency for pack attacks on people who are reluctant to retaliate in similar fashion.

The trolling out of JCage and Rangudu was unconscionable.

It was largely the fault of us admins. We were tolerant of certain individuals who got much more leeway than they should have. So the result is that BR has become a den of conspiracy mongering individuals who see the hand of evanjehadis everywhere. Is there an easier way to abdicate our responsibility for our destinies than by blaming everything on an unseen plan by unknown planners? Might as well put up a picture of the bloody illuminati up somewhere and do pooja to it... because you know, it was all done with an ulterior motive a couple of hundred years ago (if not more) ever since Macaulay delivered his damned minute.

More later if i feel like it.

I am a long time member/lurker from the time i was in my bachelors now where i am working and moved from India to US. BR has always been a place which takes around 2 hours of my daily time.

i have not seen much drop in standards of discussion in Nuclear or AF or Navy forums. It is true a lot of members are left leaning and hold an extreme position. But i think it reflects the general trends. Even though Rediff is a leftist media, a lot of thoughts on the forums on rediff are towards the right.

But do i want to see the leftists and commies on BRF. No NO No. If i wanted to see some leftist talk, i would go to Rediff, Times of india, Ndtv, cnn-ibn and a lot more.

i think BRF should be left alone as it is and times will change it accordingly.

Is there an email for all mods at BRF?

Atish.

Thanx. Brings tears to mah I's that anyone should remember how that great and desperate battle was won by thinking up that name


That also solves one equation (NewHandle = ?? OldHandle). Trouble these days is that I can sort-of sense (no comment on which sense is used) the person behind certain posts, and many radar warnings sound, but can't quite be sure of the IFF signature. It would be a terrible thing to go bully someone thinking they are a newbie or the wrong oldbie, and find that the Element of Surprise is all on the other side.

Anyway, if u r surviving (and I should say thriving) on BRF, then BRF is certainly not doing badly. Great!

My great concern has been that "we" simply did tooooo well, driving away those whose opinions were (of course wrong but) diametrically opposed to "ours". For instance, the 4-step Paki Detection Algorithm (I have not heard any complaint of an incident of wrong IFF there) was developed with such care, and is completely useless unless there are Pakis to detect.

But obviously Pakis were not the only ppl "we" drove away so successfully.

I dont have much to say about right wing or left wing, my only point is the language used by everyone on the forum for discussing any topic should be as formal/casual as each one of us would have used while talking in public.

The problem is we all take advantage of the limitations of the internet , we don't care as to what a third person will think when he/she reads the stuff posted by certain 'xyz' which actually is a proxy handle.

Point being if the purpose of forum and its content is to impart knowledge or serve as a repository of some sorts for members as well as general public then we better use a language that suits the purpose.

As for the quality of the discussions , well I am of the opinion that this is solely governed by those who drive the discussion , yes trolls and newbies might generate some noise or shoot tangents but then Admins can take care of that (perhaps here Shiv's idea of an instant 'BAN' button might help).

And imho above should also answer the question as to 'What should be Discussed on BRF ?' .. i.e. I don't see any reason why we cant discuss contentious issues like religion/faith/race on BRF as long as we all abide by the above protocol, for imo no one gets angry or worked up when one asks him/her about his/her God , it is again those one liners and snide remarks which do the dammage (which none of us would have dared to use in public).

All in all our postings should be governed by our love/passion for our country/or whatever that draws each of us to BRF and not by the Hatred which we seem to have developed against a certain entity.

Was there a 4-step paki detection system (4SPDS)? people accused me of being a paki when I joined just because I had the word 'pagan' in my email and handle. I had to do some explaining to the mods to stop the targeting! Then later I got spanked in a tread for suggesting peaceful ways of fighting against Islamism in India instead of putting masses on the road which leads to violence and gives them a subject to exploit for years to come. Since then I figured that the policy of
My 2 paise of rona/dhona 1. 2.

that's a very juvenile concept IMO. would take away from BR's image as a serious place for discussion.
admins are anyway hard pressed for time.

Admins, I would like to reiterate some of my points I presented in last page.

a) BR needs to do stand alone articles on issues that have been dissected and analyzed over and over and on which a general level of understanding has been reached.
Issues like islamism, nuclear deterrence, recent events in pakistan are topics on which BRF provides a POV which is unique and immensely illuminating.
This knowledge needs to be spread and the best way to do that is to put it in formal articles. The purpose served by a readily available article that is
easy to understand (no BRspeak or BRparlance) and can be cited can't be over emphasised. It would also have the added benefit of educating a lot of the excitable newcomers before they start posting.

I believe a rethink of BR's mandate is in order. Does it want to remain a place for the knowledgable few who know what they are talking about and end up hair-splitting the issues or does it want to spread the gyaan around ? It's up to the owners/admins to decide.

If you ask me,BR needs to survive for the multitude of people called the bharatiyas, not just a few hundred BRFites.

b) I am again requesting BR gurus to pen a few monographs on the burning issues at hand. Personally, I'm not knowledgable enough to write on these topics but I am hereby commiting myself to whatever managerial/editorial activities that may be required for the successful completion of these projects.
I find it extremely frustrating to find all these excellent gems on BRF which do not go into circulation for want of a concerted effort.

c) Only way to ensure civilized behaviour on BRF is stricter monitoring.
Shiv's instant ban idea is good for weeding incurable cases of trolling. But, for posters who err once or twice and contribute constructively otherwise it will be unnescessarily harsh.
The requirement is not stricter laws but consistent application of the laws. Abusive posts have proliferated because many such cases have escaped admin notice something I put down to overstretch of the regular admins. Truthfully, only ramana and shiv (jagan,JEM and rakesh to some extent) seem to be around to do the enforcing work these days. Check the ban/warning thread, you will understand what I mean.
That's too small a number to police BRF's large no of posts!!
Unfortunately, inspite of the amazing energy of these guys to maintain a civil environment, some errant posters do slip through.
The way out will be to induct some new mods in order to reduce the stress on the existing admins.

JMT,
Rahul M.

Of course, and I am sure you didn't fit the profile. Like I said, 0% false positives. And you thought the P.EN.I.S. threads didn't have solid 400% Paki piskology peehind them? Hah! Last ones detected were Lazarus Rajpootus in his 434th incarnation, and Pie-Pie-Piyengar from Bangalore, Kerala. The system was turned off since then - no interest.

Someone should start a thread about how to disseminate BR views into the public - perhaps by creating a magazine, or a blog, where people do not have to wade through discussion and can get the information straight out.

This would tackle public demand if administrators decide BR should be more widely available and readily accessible.

I grew up on BR. I've been a lurker ever since I was introduced to the internet some eight years ago. Back then my only point of accessing Internet was to read BR.

I'm not qualified to pronounce an opinion but I'll vent my pheelings anyways. The conspiracy mongering has gone a little too far.

We're slowly forgetting what we ought to be doing: some good old fashioned analysis. The kind that this forum did on TSP and Islamism. Instead we have conspiracy theories today.

We need to studying our neighborhood a bit more. Look at the attention Nepal has received. That country is at its political cross roads and we're not even collecting the news on the threads as it comes! I tried keeping up for a couple of days but I regret I failed.

To that extent, many of us lurkers are also at fault for having let BR down.

I'm afraid some of us suffer from the delusions of having become Guru's when we post one-liners and talk about some like illuminati stuff. Please. Nobody believes these anymore. It's only irritating and wastes valuable time and resources.

And full support for instant bans.

That is true. And I will censure myself with regard to names like 'prostitute', 'arse licker', and more such niceties I have used to describe people. There is no need or justification for that. I admit that it`s tempting to choose the path of least resistance and just label someone a 'prostitute', mind you that person may very well be a prostitute but it´s not the sort of forum BRF should be.

However, I stongly object to the suggestion that posters should handle members of certain communities with kid gloves in order not to alienate members of that community.

Well, it´s true that some of more knowledgeable old timers post cryptic one-liners ( or maybe a few more lines ) and the result is that folks like me don't really get the idea, there is no 'connect' and I just wonder 'What was that about ?'. So do take the time to present a logical flow of thoughts. I know, it´s a lot of work, so it all comes down to whether or not you care enough about the BRF community to do all the typing.

I didn't know until now that JCage and Rangudu were trolled out. If this is the case then the admins certainly failed to do what they are supposed to do. JCage counted for a thousand BRF members like myself, at least, and it was always a pleasure to read the articles Rangudu posted, I have no idea how he managed to find them ( and the cartoons as well ).

I have to admit that I too fail to see the connection between certain events that happened, or may have occurred a hundred or more years ago and events we are witnessing now. So again, do try to explain how certain events have a bearing on the present because I am not that smart and I need more convincing. Don't just suggest things, try to make a logical case.

>>I didn't know until now that JCage and Rangudu were trolled out.

Well, to be perfectly frank, I don't "know" either... but one thing is clear, both were severely targeted on a continual basis for a period of time, and after that Rangudu has heavily curbed his posts (there is another reason as well, as he has mentioned) and JCage simply has stopped posting... It is fairly safe to assume that this experience had a negative impact on their view of BR.

As I said, we admins gave too much leeway then....

Folks please stop talking about JCage. He is on a breather and will come back when he feels like it. He wasn't trolled out. That doesnt mean people werent after him.

But has a balance been found?

The Islamism thread is pretty toxic. A bunch of us (and I include myself in this) post stuff there that (a) tends to create a negative impression of Islam, rather than just Islamism and (b) reinforces this impression by concentrating negative reports from many media sources.

Now that thread was educational. Many of us now understand radical Islamism, its history and goals etc. But do we now openly express contempt for Islam itself?

I sometimes do a double take when I read (and myself contribute) that thread. I wonder what impression it creates in the mind of an Indian Muslim who is interested in the military and comes across BRF.

The paki penis thread has posts in it that mock the pakis and the jihadis. Many would argue that some posts mock Islam and its prophet rather than just Pakistan.

When I first joined BRF, religion and politics were verboten. Perhaps such divisive topics should have stayed banned?

Then there are the ludicrous conspiracy theories...