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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 12:44 
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sum wrote:
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I agree. Bajrang Dal is expendable though BJPwallahs would have separation pangs.

The "ban Banjang Dal" non-issue is being raised by the fake liberals to draw attention from the real problem.

Please dont count on a mere ban helping in ending the equal-equal...
Once banned , the p-secs will next keep harping about how the banned SIMI is under severe police crackdown and torture but the banned Bajrang is not having similar raids against it though 1000000 Bajrangis have been found making bombs near mosques!!! Its a never ending cycle..There is no legit grievance for all this mayhem being caused and the only option is for the community to introspect rather than creating strawmen. However, going by the reactions of the educated and the "leaders" so far, there is little hope of that.


Agree with you. Hindus should never give an inch. It is just a trick to ask HIndus to keep bending backward a little more each time, till their back breaks. It is better to stand firm and not give an inch. Muslims are past masters at rioting and Christians are past masters at converting. You need street toughies on the ground to tackle them both.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 13:00 
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Can we take a moment and mourn that beautiful child Santosh who was killed returning the box? I was overwhelemed with sadness when I saw his photograph and read the merciless manner in which he was killed.

One is depressed to see what this is leading to, clearly, as India gets poised to attract 40 billion dollars of foreign investment and nothing dents our economic story, larger forces are at play to derail it. OTOH, many other countries suffer from terrorism and have carried on, easier said than done as I am as affected as anyone else by this. IMO the pseudo secularists should be shut behind bars and the Bajrang Dal dealt with firmly, because their attacks have attracted enormous attention abroad and helped to drain sympathy from our cause, as invariably people start equating Hindu Fundamentalism with Muslim. We need the support of the international commnity, and the time is right with the US openly debating pressurising Pakistan (the US debates were revealing) for this.

The terrorists may win anyway, even if they succeed in containing the Taliban in Pak-Afghan, they are opening a huge fault line within our country the traces of which may linger. But on that count, I am confident that once the external "inspiration" vanishes, we will bounce back to normal.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 13:11 
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the Bajrang Dal dealt with firmly, because their attacks have attracted enormous attention abroad and helped to drain sympathy from our cause,


The coverage about Bajrang Dal is contrived, artificial and grossly inflated. Its sole objective is equal-equal and claim both Hindus and Muslims indulge in terrorism. Bajrang Dal is a consequence of this "equal equal" strategy, not a cause. The moment you ban Bajrang Dal, they will pounce on Bal Thakeray, then VHP, then RSS, then Hindu Munani, then "fascist communal" BJP .... you will be forced to keep banning till there is no organisation left that represents the Hindus. You are unable to distinguish between vandalism and terrorism. SIMI till now accounts for over 500 deaths of innocent people. How many has Bajrang Dal killed? Do you see the trick that is being played to keep hindus on the defensive and pronounce them equally guilty of supporting terrorism as Muslims.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 13:45 
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Zin wrote:
Dont mistake my questions. They were not intended to question your nationality or patriotism.

ok.

Zin wrote:
Not true.
One of the pigs is living like a prince in britian with the UK govt funding his expensive lifestyle.
And the money the UK govt provides to muslim groups is being diverted to fund terror activities.

I know both these of incidents are true and have been reported by the british press, right now i cant seem to find the relevant links.

Probably they do it to reveal the extent of Jihadi network, I doubt he is not bugged by MI-5. You should know this fact because even Muslim MP's are bugged.

Zin wrote:
You agree about the failure to keep track of jehadi muslims. That is what intelligence failure means.


Not a intelligence failure, he was slipped because there was no funding to keep vouch on him. If you reveal the dossier of MI-5 they have clearly mentioned it. Also, MI-5/Police did not had enough powers to detain him for longer and question him.

Zin wrote:
So what happens when two muslim men marry each other.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
british law allows such marriages while sharia says that such men should be thrown from the high building.
So which law is going to be applied here.


british law do not allow term "marriage", it says term "civil partnership". Sharia's are not given enough powers in matter of punishing the people in such manner. Definately impossible.


Zin wrote:

Not true.
Fraud cases are being handled by sharia kangroo courts which now have the legal sanction under british law. Read this.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece

The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.
Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.



I suspect these financial disputes are only limited to those concerning "Sharia bank" involving muslims on both sides, I am sure it is not applied to financial cases where Muslims or other community commits frauds viz each other, i.e. muslims vs christians.

On criminal cases, read this.
Quote:
Siddiqi said he expected the courts to handle a greater number of “smaller” criminal cases in coming years as more Muslim clients approach them. “All we are doing is regulating community affairs in these cases,” said Siddiqi, chairman of the governing council of the tribunal.


I am not sure this will happen ever on a bigger scale. It is simply impossible.



Quote:
And this is the most horrifying part of this sharia courts.

In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations.
So here you have the sharia courts reducing british women of muslim religion to second class citizens in their own country and the state instead of coming to their aid allows such kangroo courts to function and has enhanced their legal powers.


So, it is an individual's decision to go to Sharia court, if they dont they cant be forced to. Henceforth, the argument that it handles big issues is not true.

Quote:
Next new development in emirate of britian will be theives having their limbs chopped off to comply with sharia law.

It, will be impossible and challenged under human rights acts.



Zin wrote:
So when are the hindu,sikh,buddhist,jain courts going to come up in emirate of britian?

If they want they can come up with their set of laws, but I guess hindu's, sikhs, buddhist and jains itself follows british laws in India so the question does not arise. But if they wish no one can stop it.

Zin wrote:
Read the parts of koran that give specific directions to muslims on how to behave with non-muslims.


I have done so, sir.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 15:20 
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there is going to be massive internal pressure (surface tension and viscosity) from within the Musalman
community to favour the use of these courts. for example letting them into the area of domestic
violence is just a small 'hole' the dam, one that will enlarge in due course. in the entire islamic world I cant
think of one country whose sharia courts are known to be fair wrt women. so it will be in UK also.

Masha-allah, its good to know UK oil droplet is tight and self-sufficient. bodes well for the future.

musalman women in UK will no doubt enjoy the full benefits of Sharia courts soon, in due course even
islamic punishments will be given due sanction and the horrified british govt will be told to shove it or
face 'displeasure' and 'more trips to pakistan by frustrated youths' :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 18:23 
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Sanjaychoudury I totally understand where you are coming from, nevertheless as a major power we have to play our cards right, notice I didn't pass value judgement on BD in terms of comparison with the deadlier peril, although I abhor them as lumpens unbefitting the proud tradition of Hinduism, whose (Hinduism I mean) depth has to be understood to be fully appreciated, and also I can't forget they burnt a child - Graham Staines' kid - anyway lets not derail the discussion. I fear the time has come for another Partition, let's face it, they have started something which if not dealth with firmly now will lead inevitably to that. Apparently the Kashmiris offered a choice to cross over at the border and not return chose not to cross.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 18:35 
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ashish raval wrote:
Zin wrote:
Not true.
One of the pigs is living like a prince in britian with the UK govt funding his expensive lifestyle.
And the money the UK govt provides to muslim groups is being diverted to fund terror activities.

Probably they do it to reveal the extent of Jihadi network

So the british govt funds terror orgs to know the extent of the jihadi network. :D :shock: :roll:

ashish raval wrote:
Zin wrote:
You agree about the failure to keep track of jehadi muslims. That is what intelligence failure means.


Not a intelligence failure, he was slipped because there was no funding to keep vouch on him.

:rotfl
So the british intel orgs dont have money to keep track of terrorists.
If this is your response then not much to discuss on this.

ashish raval wrote:
Zin wrote:
So what happens when two muslim men marry each other.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
british law allows such marriages while sharia says that such men should be thrown from the high building.
So which law is going to be applied here.


british law do not allow term "marriage", it says term "civil partnership". Sharia's are not given enough powers in matter of punishing the people in such manner. Definately impossible.

read this.
Quote:
The disclosure that Muslim courts have legal powers in Britain comes seven months after Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was pilloried for suggesting that the establishment of sharia in the future “seems unavoidable” in Britain.

Within next seven months you will see heads of homosexuals rolling on the streets, courtesy sharia law.


ashish raval wrote:
Zin wrote:

Fraud cases are being handled by sharia kangroo courts which now have the legal sanction under british law. Read this.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece

The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.
Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.

I suspect these financial disputes are only limited to those concerning "Sharia bank" involving muslims on both sides, I am sure it is not applied to financial cases where Muslims or other community commits frauds viz each other, i.e. muslims vs christians.


So you suscept and are not sure.
Even those living in emirate of britian are not sure of which is the law of the land, British law or sharia.
Fine example of slow and steady rise of islam while the people of the land are ignorant of the true meaning of it.
What more could the jehadis have asked for? :D


And if you have time please read these articles to get rid of your ignorance of the creeping islamization of britian.

"Flag of Sharia" flying over Downing Street by 2020
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... r-911.html
Mr Choudary talked about the black "flag of Sharia" flying over Downing Street by 2020, saying 500 people a day were converting to Islam. He laughed that Muslim families in places like Whitechapel and Bethnal Green in east London were having "10 or 12 children each".

Have more babies and Muslims can take over the UK
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... 11-UK.html

Merchants of Hatred
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ithin.html
I was there as the radical cleric and self-styled sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed proclaimed that this country - where he received state benefits for two decades - will soon be transformed into an Islamic state, or Khilafah, run according to the rules of the Muslim holy book, the Koran.
Courtesy Gerarduddin.

ashish raval wrote:
Zin wrote:
On criminal cases, read this.
Quote:
Siddiqi said he expected the courts to handle a greater number of “smaller” criminal cases in coming years as more Muslim clients approach them. “All we are doing is regulating community affairs in these cases,” said Siddiqi, chairman of the governing council of the tribunal.

I am not sure this will happen ever on a bigger scale. It is simply impossible.


A few years back sharia courts looked impossible. Now they are a reality in britian.
Wake up. islam is taking over britian while the natives are behaving like dhimmis.

ashish raval wrote:
Zin wrote:
So when are the hindu,sikh,buddhist,jain courts going to come up in emirate of britian?

If they want they can come up with their set of laws, but I guess hindu's, sikhs, buddhist and jains itself follows british laws in India so the question does not arise. But if they wish no one can stop it.

Similarly why cant the muslims follow british law.
Why have they been given this extra priviledge?
The only reason is that muslims have been allowed sharia is due to threat of violence.
Muslims of Britian : Give us sharia or we blow you? :D


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 18:41 
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I abhor them as lumpens unbefitting the proud tradition of Hinduism


As I said, you need boots on the ground in times of social unrest, riots and assault on one's faith. Every Hindu cannot sit in drawing room and sip Coke when riots rage on the street outside. You need people who can stand on the street and throw stones back. Otherwise, the Muslims will drag you out of your houses and your proud traditions of Hinduism will be of no use. Nothing scares missionaries more than Bajrang Dal toughies. In the absence of any kind of secular government's concern or support against the conversion assault over Hinduism, Bajrang Dal is the last line of defence. You remove it, and Hindus will be sitting ducks. What will you do when a dictator dies in the Middle East and Indian Muslims start burning shops of their Hindu neighbours? Send a petition to the High Court? As they say: "It is a dirty job, but somebody has to take out the garbage."


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 19:05 
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Don't think that the white British strategists haven't noticed that Islam is a SERIOUS threat to their beloved Stiff-upper lipped nation. Before long these guys will enact laws, and then there will be no human rights oversight and deal with this problem ruthlessly.
If they don't, they are as doomed as Pakistan is today.

:idea:
Hey maybe there might just be a link. Pakistan implodes, RAPE migrate into Britainistan and in a few years down goes Britain too.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 19:17 
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
In the absence of any kind of secular government's concern or support against the conversion assault over Hinduism, Bajrang Dal is the last line of defence. You remove it, and Hindus will be sitting ducks.


True.

However, I think there is a strategic mistake by the sangh parivar when they created an org called Bajrang Dal. They should create an org on the fly and should dissolve it as soon as the work is completed. By keeping Bajarng Dal un-dissolved after the Ayodhya movement they are putting the entire sangh to legal rampifications.

Example of org that came up and dissolved was bharatiya sanskrit parirakshan(something like that) to stop the shooting of the movie "Water" by Deepa Mehta in Varanasi. There are numerous instances of such orgs that came to limelight and gone. I guess the new Ram Sena in Karnataka is a similar one.

Sangh parivaar has no friends and all they have are HFL type enimies. It has to be smart and should not create a situation of problems for the main pillars like VHP (another careless org consisting of very educated and knowledged folks), RSS and BJP. If they want to keep Bajrang Dal as a solidified organization they they should make them polished and media savvy and not like what they did in karnataka. It seems like their KT leaders came on TV and owned the responsibility of vandalism. This is sheer stupidity. There is a need to keep plausible deniability and bahadurgiri is not going to give any dividends in 21st century. They should not operate with "Aa Bail Mujhe Maar" style.

My 2 cents.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 20:03 
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Quote:
There is a need to keep plausible deniability and bahadurgiri is not going to give any dividends in 21st century. They should not operate with "Aa Bail Mujhe Maar" style.


Correct. I have always despaired about the lack of shrewdness or guile in the RSS and other Hindu organisations. Innocence is a general Hindu trait. That is why they are victims of sting operations but cannot organise a sting operation of their own on political rivals.

Goodness does not mean lack of shrewdness. Just like bad people employ shrewdness and guile to pursue their objectives, good people also have to employ cunning to pursue theirs. Where would shivaji have been if he had omitted to wear armour under his clothes while meeting Afzal Khan for "diplomatic negotiations"?


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 20:23 
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kshirin wrote:
Sanjaychoudury I totally understand where you are coming from, nevertheless as a major power we have to play our cards right, notice I didn't pass value judgement on BD in terms of comparison with the deadlier peril, although I abhor them as lumpens unbefitting the proud tradition of Hinduism, whose (Hinduism I mean) depth has to be understood to be fully appreciated, and also I can't forget they burnt a child - Graham Staines' kid - anyway lets not derail the discussion. I fear the time has come for another Partition, let's face it, they have started something which if not dealth with firmly now will lead inevitably to that. Apparently the Kashmiris offered a choice to cross over at the border and not return chose not to cross.



Dara Singh was a freelance guy, not bajrang dal


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 20:30 
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The media chorus resonating in unison 24x7 all over the country is a force multiplier for the anti Indians. This fort has to be breached. Increased positive psy-ops about Hindus has to be implemented. Since the media does not shy away from unethical methods of journalism, similar standards are the need of the hour against these anti national forces. The scope of deniability needs to be absolutely there. But ultimately, chaos is bound to happen. If there is an attack for e.g. the Lakshmananda case and a tit for tat action, the media and the so called intellectuals will go out full throttle to blame the Hindus. The Govt. will always be implicated for inaction. Seminars will happen all over the western world about Hindu intolerance. The actions will not be restricted to reprimands from foreign Govts. Arming the anti nationals is already going on and will only increase. This is the scenario. The first step for the national forces is not to panic or loose nerve.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 20:32 
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Is BJP supporting Bajrang Dal? I really wish we had Statesmen in our country, this is the time for the two major parties to combine forces and tackle the deathly peril confronting us instead of frittering away energy on non-issues, I feel "they" are planning to use WMDs, and the state of emasculation being what it is, I fear there will be no response even to that. Why can't anyone understand this amongst our politicans? Not one statesman like statement from anyone, except the zero tolerance sound bite from Pranabda. But it was just a bite.

Seeing how the US has gone back on the N deal and plans to prop up TSP again, with the familiar story of the aid being diverted against us set to repeat itself (I hope I am wrong and Z means what he says, but then since when have the civilians ever had any power in that country), I find too much wrong with this approach:

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080067016

Lessons on tackling terror from America? Barkha Dutt Sunday, September 28, 2008, (Washington)

"India may now turn to the United States of America, a country that was transformed by the 9/11 attack, to learn a lesson or two on how to tackle terror. There has been no major strike in the USA since the day passenger planes stormed through the twin towers in New York. Sources have told NDTV that with the nuclear deal vote firmly in the bag, India's National Security Advisor M K Narayanan spent his last day in America with the United States Homeland Security. Charles Allen, Under Secretary in the Office of Intelligence and Analysis, took the NSA and his team through a drill on how America tackles terror.

Sources tell NDTV that while some of the ideas were interesting, they may not be effective in India as American society has become controversially draconian in a way that may not translate well into India's vibrant, but sometimes chaotic democracy.

The unusual decision to study the American model is perhaps born from the government's need to explore all options - conventional and imaginative - to try and win a war against terror, that the government's critics say, India is losing. With a second set of blasts targeting Delhi, the PM once again underlined the weakness in India's intelligence gathering systems and prosecution process, saying there was an urgent need or both to strengthened. "We have to fight the war against terror, resolutely," the PM said."

The "sources" had already accepted that we cannot implement effective anti-terror measures in India. Makes me sick, seeing how we are being taken for granted. Then why hold the dialogue? To impress the public?


Last edited by kshirin on 28 Sep 2008 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 20:45 
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http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=16980
‘I saw the Mehrauli bombers’
9/28/2008 2:25:27 PM
"Just as the bike sped away there was a blast," Witness

In a major new development in connection with the South Delhi bombing on Saturday (September 27), which claimed the lives of three people, including a child, a Mehrauli resident has come forward and claimed that she had a tiff with the motorcycle bombers as they were trying to get away after placing the bomb in a crowded Mehrauli locality.

The woman whose claims are yet to be substantiated came forward this morning (September 28, 2008) with the claim. When questioned, the woman said that the incident took place at about 02:08 PM or 02:10 PM in the afternoon when she was on her way home.

"At that time I had seen two men on a motorbike. They were in hurry and trying to force their bike in," said the woman. I said to them, "Why are you in such a hurry? It's time for kids to leave from school. Its time for school to let out and you are trying to force a bike in here. At least watch where you're going or else you will run over a child."

According to the woman, the men didn’t reply. She said, “The second man just told the other one to move fast. I said to them if you are in such a hurry why you don’t take a plane instead of a bike. I walked ahead about 10-15 feet and they were still stuck in a jam. And then there was a bomb blast. Just as the bike sped away there was a blast."

The woman added, "One of them was wearing a shirt and black pants and a black helmet and the other one at the back had worn a cheap quality yellow cap."

Delhi police have launched a massive manhunt for the two men who dropped the bomb in crowded Mehrauli market and launched extensive checking across the capital. The two men, believed to be aged around 30-32 years, riding a black motorcycle with Delhi registration number were responsible for the explosion.

Meanwhile, the Faridabad police have detained two persons, one from Aligarh whose cell phone was used to make calls to media organizations in connection with the Mehrauli blast.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 20:52 
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Sources tell NDTV that while some of the ideas were interesting, they may not be effective in India as American society has become controversially draconian in a way that may not translate well into India's vibrant, but sometimes chaotic democracy.


Well, just like you have to be willing to lose some of your people (soldiers) to protect the rest of the people, you also have to be willing to sacrifice some of your freedoms to protect the rest of the freedoms. American citizens have gained their internal security by agreeing to give up some of their personal freedoms. The Indians should be ready to do the same if they love their life.


Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 28 Sep 2008 21:10, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:01 
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Quote:
Sources tell NDTV that while some of the ideas were interesting, they may not be effective in India as American society has become controversially draconian in a way that may not translate well into India's vibrant, but sometimes chaotic democracy.


Well, just like you have to be willing to lose some people (soliders) to protect the rest of the people, you also have to be swilling to sacrifice some of your freedoms to protect the rest of the freedoms. American citizens have gained their internal security by agreeing to give up some of their personal freedoms. The Indians should be ready to do the same if they love their life.


Yup, that's the point of the post. I do not mind increased surveillance, more CCTVs, drastic reduction of the rest of bureaucracy and Govt spending to fund the fight against terror, more surprise checks, strip searches before we enter cinema halls and 100 metres perimeters, increases in police forces, and serious consideration of giving some thought to the long term - can we live like this with regular bomb blasts and other potentially horrendous calamities or should we look at other options? Our opponents see so much disunity, no wonder they strike and strike at will. Our politicians seem incapable of uniting to face the common peril, and I fear for what can happen in such a scenario...But there is no open debate on real issues amongst those who govern us and Arjun S foudn his voice only to defend terrorists and the media aids obfuscation.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:06 
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There is little consensus on the cause of terror. Atleast in the media and the GOI. The cause is simple. The root cause of terror is Islam. Till we tackle the ideology of Islam, the terror show shall go on. The muslim population in US is too small. If the US wants it can do what it did to it's Japanese population in WW2. India is too different. We cannot and must not attempt a Bosnia type situation here. It's self defeating for now.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:11 
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harbans wrote:
We cannot and must not attempt a Bosnia type situation here. It's self defeating for now.


What if they do a Hiroshima on us? Are we going to wait? Not that we have any option... No one is doing anything.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:17 
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Mainstream Media Questions
Delhi Encounter Killings

By L. George

25 September, 2008
Countercurrents.org

Finally it has happened: the main stream media in India has for the first time come out with something other than the 'official version' of the encounter killings that have taken place in the country.

NDTV Report

An NDTV report with the headline 'Cover-up charges cling to terror probe' has said that Delhi's latest terror spectre throws up contrasting images. A police officer -- one of the finest -- shot 3 times. And, young, educated, fun-loving men who, the police say, are deadly terrorists.

The police are convinced that Atif and his young group, most of them in their 20s with the youngest just 17, is responsible for all the major blasts in India this year and the death of nearly 150 people.

But now, a group of lawyers and human rights activists are raising questions. They ask who are the two missing men, who escaped from the flat in Batla house on the day of encounter. And how could they possibly escape when the only way out was a narrow staircase and there were several policemen in the area.

The other point is that the profiles of these young men seem to indicate terror was the farthest thing in their minds. They were regular college-going students.

One of those arrested, Zeeshan, was taking giving his exams on the day of the encounter. He came on TV to surrender. Why didn't he run away?, asks NDTV. The police say they have evidence that he planted the bomb at Delhi's Barakhamba Road.

Another alleged Indian Mujahideen (IM) operative Saqib was also arrested. A gold medalist in economics honours from Jamia Millia University, he was a regular on Orkut. He maintained a profile like most users do and had a wide circle of friends.

Cops claim the 23-year-old was involved in both Ahmedabad and Delhi blasts. Saqib's family has countered the police claims and furnished documents to show that Saquib appeared for six exams from the 23rd of July to the 28th July -- the time that the police claim he was planning the blasts.

Shakib's brother says: "He was the topper in his class for the last two years."

The house where the men were staying and its caretaker are also under the scanner. The caretaker, who has worked in the PWD for several years, insists that he gave the details of the men staying at his home to the police almost a month before the blasts.

However, the police have now arrested him for forging these documents. His son has also been arrested for alleged nexus with the terrorists.

There are several such questions to which there are still no easy answers. And the police know they will have to find hard evidence to back each of their claims. However, they say the death of Inspector Sharma proves there was no fake encounter.

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The Mali Today has also come out with a version raising many questions about the encounter:

It says two eyewitnesses of the September 19 cell action at Jamia Nagar have presented a version of the event that is at complete variance with what has been offered by Delhi Police.

Their reconstruction of the event, which indicates a scuffle had probably taken place before the shots were fired, many also explain why Jamia Nagar residents are not buying the police theory that the team has either eliminated or arrested the men allegedly behind the bomb blasts in Delhi, Ahmedabad and Jaipur.

This version given to MAIL TODAY on the condition of anonymity, squares up with the hitherto unreported autopsy report on Sharma and the nature of wounds on the bodies of the two young men killed by the Special Cell of the Delhi Police. The autopsy report on Sharma, which is with the Headlines Today, says he was shot at from extremely close range, no more than a few centimeters from him. he was hit by three bullets. All of them entered through the back and followed a top-to-down trajectory.

The body of one of the 'terrorists' bears injury marks, sharp wounds and multiple internal injuries in the stomach. Doctors say such injuries are usually attributed to a scuffle, a violent physical assault. Someone may even have stamped on him. His flatmate Mohammed Sajid also dead, was apparently shot in the head. Could his death too have occurred during the scuffle?

Further, could Inspector Sharma have been injured during the fisticuffs that ensued between the alleged Delhi bombers and the policemen who were raiding supposed terrorist hideouts? Is it possible that he suffered the injuries when a bullet went off accidentally during the scuffle?

There is no way to find out the kind of bullet injury that Sharma suffered. No bullets were found on his body during his autopsy. The medical bulletin of Holy family Hospital, where he was taken first, said no "foreign bodies were found in his chest and abdomen.

Mail Today took exhaustive eyewitness accounts of the police action on September 19. Eyewitnesses, who live in the immediate vicinity of L-18, Batla House - the alleged IM hideout - said the Special Cell team that raided the scene of action brought two young men to the ground floor from their fourth-floor flat. they had a verbal altercation with the two men and killed them after some of them realised Sharma had been shot.

Jamia Nagar residents had been seeing heightened activity by the policemen in civilian clothes for about a week before the police action. Yet, they were taken aback when a group of policemen in civvies surrounded L-18, Batla House, on September 19, for they had not seen any suspicious activity in their building. It is hard to keep secrets in the rabbit warren of apartment blocks in Jamia Nagar.

A member of the Special Cell first went up to the fourth-floor flat occupied by Atif and Sajid, pretending to be a cellphone salesman. the young men inside the flat did not receive the undercover policeman cordially. They entered into an argument with sub-inspector Ddharmender, who was pretending to be the salesman.

All this took place in front of the neighbours who had come out onto the balconies of their flats on hearing the commotion. Reacting immediately when the arguments started, the policemen waiting downstairs rushed up.

None of them had their guns out. Clearly, they were not expecting any armed resistance. One of the men, whom the eyewitnesses were able to identify after seeing his images on television, Sharma.

Speaking from behind a grill that covers the fourth-floor staircase at L-18, Sharma yelled at all the neighbours who had come out of their houses to go indoors because they could get hurt in the "firing". Residents of the area followed his instructions. But the eyewitnesses, being quoted by the Mail Today, watched the goings-on from behind their toilet windows.

They saw only two men in the flat. that leaves the man who was arrested from the spot, Mohammed Saif, and the two men who reportedly escaped during the police action unaccounted for.

They saw Sharma's men drag Atif and Sajid to the ground floor landing. The two men, who were subsequently killed, appeared to be in panic and unarmed at the time. No one could see what happened thereafter as the partly covered ground floor landing was not in their line of vision.

The eyewitness could hear the policemen hurling abuses at the two youngmen. This was followed by gunshots. Then someone shouted, "Sahab ko goli lag gayi (the boss has been shot)." The young men could not be hard in this commotion. After sometime, the eyewitnesses hear more gunshots. The policemen came into the view of our eyewitnesses. They were dragging the bodies of two men upstairs.

Around the same time, they saw sub-inspector Dharmender, and another policeman leading Sharma out of the building. The eyewitness couldn't figure out the extent of Sharma's injury from what they saw.

The bodies of two youngmen, meanwhile, were dragged up to their flat by the policemen. Then they wrapped the bodies with cloth.

According to the eyewitnesses, after the two bodies were taken away and piled into a police van, a group of policemen materialised out of the blue with three young men they had rounded up, seemingly from within the L-18 flats. They were unable to make out where the men came from. One of them, it appears now, was Mohammed Saif. He is now in the police custody.

The reconstruction by the eyewitnesses posed some questions. Why did two young men, and their alleged accomplices, not flee the scene or clean up their laptops even after everyone in the neighbourhood was aware of the heightened police presence in the area?

Why did the policemen not have their guns out when they rushed up to the flat after the argument broke out between sub-inspector Dharmender and the two men?

Was Sharma shot at by the alleged terrorists or was he a victim of collateral damage because he happened to be in the range of a ricocheting bullet?

'Multiple masterminds'


We are also forced to take a new look at the announcements made by the Police.


After killing the two youths Atif and Sajjid in Delhi, the special police cell chief Karnal Singh claimed that they were the masterminds behind the bombings of Uttar Pradesh courts (23 November, 2007), Jaipur bombings (13 May, 2008), Ahmedabad bombings (26 July, 2008), and Delhi bombings (13 September, 2008).

He also claimed that they were behind the Varanassi bombings of 2006 and Gorakhpur bombings of 2007. If what the Delhi police claim is true, what about the alleged mastermind that the Gujarat police arrested in connection with Ahmedabad bombings, Abu Basher?

Gujarat Police claimed that he was the master mind of all these bombings.

On September 24th, Mumbai Police have also arrested new 'masterminds' of all these blasts. Rajastan Police had arrested a cyber cafe owner, Shahbas Hussain. They also claim that he was the mastermind of the Jaipur blasts. Whom should we believe?


In the light of these revelations and views people in India and around the world may adopt a new stand: not to swallow the official versions as such


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:20 
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Quote:
the Bajrang Dal dealt with firmly, because their attacks have attracted enormous attention abroad and helped to drain sympathy from our cause,


The coverage about Bajrang Dal is contrived, artificial and grossly inflated. Its sole objective is equal-equal and claim both Hindus and Muslims indulge in terrorism. Bajrang Dal is a consequence of this "equal equal" strategy, not a cause. The moment you ban Bajrang Dal, they will pounce on Bal Thakeray, then VHP, then RSS, then Hindu Munani, then "fascist communal" BJP .... you will be forced to keep banning till there is no organisation left that represents the Hindus. You are unable to distinguish between vandalism and terrorism. SIMI till now accounts for over 500 deaths of innocent people. How many has Bajrang Dal killed? Do you see the trick that is being played to keep hindus on the defensive and pronounce them equally guilty of supporting terrorism as Muslims.


One of Mahatma's unstated tools was the prospect of revolutionary movement taking over the freedom struggle if he stepped aside and this was mainly civilizational/religious(Hindu) inspired. After his assassination by banning the religious outfits(manily Hindu) the elite suppressed a valuable tool which was not the cause o the assassination. This suppression lead to self-disarmament in the political field with its own consequences. The ban of Bajrang Dal on an equal eqaul basis is another move in the same light. it will legitimize the SIMI terrorist activity which is more egregious than the tenous Bajrand Dal one.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:24 
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OK don't ban BD, but stop them from distracting us from the real threat please our politicians cannot multi task as you can see.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:28 
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they have been given an extreme amt of power (and wealth) due to their perceived abilities to deal
with >1 complex problem at the same time. there are people in the ministry like pranabda, antonyji,
kamal nathji and PCji who are considered quite capable. dayanidhi maran was another one.

those 'managers' who are not able to multitask effectively should change over to 'individual contributor'
role where they can work one or two problems in depth.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:32 
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kshirin wrote:

Lessons on tackling terror from America? Barkha Dutt Sunday, September 28, 2008, (Washington)

"India may now turn to the United States of America, a country that was transformed by the 9/11 attack, to learn a lesson or two on how to tackle terror. There has been no major strike in the USA since the day passenger planes stormed through the twin towers in New York. Sources have told NDTV that with the nuclear deal vote firmly in the bag, India's National Security Advisor M K Narayanan spent his last day in America with the United States Homeland Security. Charles Allen, Under Secretary in the Office of Intelligence and Analysis, took the NSA and his team through a drill on how America tackles terror.


Does America have any neighboring nation similar to Pakistan.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 21:48 
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What if they do a Hiroshima on us? Are we going to wait? Not that we have any option... No one is doing anything.

Shirin Ji there is a full thread devoted to options in case of a Nuclear strike. Plenty comments and opinions. Mine too. In that scenario to do anything useful you must actually know what or who struck you. And strike that. If it is Islam that struck then destroy Islam. But in the present scenario it is better the sooner we tackle this ideology. We cannot and should not waste media time with Harinder Bawejas, Roys and Teesta's dominating TV debates. Put up Bukhari with VHP types who know whats in the Koran on TV. When we come to that we will approach tackling the ideology responsible for turning muslims into terrorists.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 22:34 
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kshirin wrote:
Sanjaychoudury I totally understand where you are coming from, nevertheless as a major power we have to play our cards right, notice I didn't pass value judgement on BD in terms of comparison with the deadlier peril, although I abhor them as lumpens unbefitting the proud tradition of Hinduism, whose (Hinduism I mean) depth has to be understood to be fully appreciated, and also I can't forget they burnt a child - Graham Staines' kid - anyway lets not derail the discussion. I fear the time has come for another Partition, let's face it, they have started something which if not dealth with firmly now will lead inevitably to that. Apparently the Kashmiris offered a choice to cross over at the border and not return chose not to cross.


kshirin, here you (and many others) have been tricked into beliving that Graham Staines' kid were burnt alive by Bajrang Dal/VHP crowd. Dara Singh was closely associated with Jaidav Jena, a Congress minister. Dara Singh also worked for Congress for a long time. The muder happened in the Keonjhar district, where Bajranj Dal had no organizational set up. Justice D.P. Wadhwa of the Supreme Court held Dara Singh guilty and no Hindu organization was found involved.

This is similar to the Godhra case. The Supreme Court appointed retd. Justice Nanavati, who also investigated anti-Sikh riots of 1984. At that time his report led to the resignation of Tytler and Sajjan Kumar(last name?). And now that the Godhra truth is out, nobody wants to listen to Modi or Nanavati and pseudo-liberals have take over the public discourse.

Problem is that opinion makes of the HFL will hold Hindu organizations guilty, no matter what the truth because it goes against their "liberalism".


Last edited by nkumar on 28 Sep 2008 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 22:41 
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GoI wants a face-saving exercise just to show tht it is taking the jihadi terror seriously hence all the talks about studying/following American model . Reality is , it will take least 3-5 years from the day a blue print is put into practice to tackle Jihadi terrorism . As of things now , we are nowhere near this blueprint , seems like authorities are still trying to find any resemblence of present day jihadi terror with any such similar terror risings in past but there's none and sooner authorities realise its a new problem we are facing tht need completely new anti-terror mechanism better we will be.

What worked in Punjab didnt work in J&K . CCTVs tht have been talked as new 'jhandu/tiger balm' are of no use unless we have the trained police personnels tht can identify the suspects when watching the live video streaming and it takes a minimum of 8-10 months to train the personnels for such jobs . What we have at present is only 'manpower' in police deptt. tht's all and its nowhere near trained 'manpower' something tht is the need of the hour.

Only thing tht we can compare of present day Jihadi-terrorism with past terror-insurgencies is all were tackled successfully once they reached their peak not at their nascent stage . So we have a long way to go and sadly a lot more lives will be lost before authorities will gain an upper hand on it .





JMTs


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 22:47 
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Zin wrote:
So the british govt funds terror orgs to know the extent of the jihadi network. :D :shock: :roll:
Zin wrote:

This not a shocking tactics, it has been carried out world over by spy agencies.

:rotfl
So the british intel orgs dont have money to keep track of terrorists.
If this is your response then not much to discuss on this.


Before laughing read this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article589700.ece
Quote:
Much of the new money — which would be available in April — will be used to expand MI5’s new regional offices.

The size of MI5’s budget is a state secret, but it is thought to have been about £200m last year. The details of the new bid are contained in a “business case” submitted by Eliza Manningham-Buller, director-general of MI5, to Clarke soon after the London bombings.

Her arguments are likely to be bolstered by evidence that lack of resources undermined MI5’s surveillance work ahead of the July 7 attacks.

Mohammad Sidique Khan, the ringleader, was placed under temporary surveillance by MI5 last year, but escaped detection because the security service decided after “a quick assessment” that he was not a direct threat.

Whitehall officials said at the time MI5 simply did not have resources to watch everyone who cropped up on the edges of their investigations.

David Davis, the shadow home secretary, said the July 7 bombings had exposed the lack of surveillance capacity in MI5. “I hope they get these new resources. There is certainly a need for an increase in capability,” he said.



Zin wrote:
So which law is going to be applied here.


Definately British law will be applied for sure.

Zin wrote:


So you suscept and are not sure.
Even those living in emirate of britian are not sure of which is the law of the land, British law or sharia.
Fine example of slow and steady rise of islam while the people of the land are ignorant of the true meaning of it.
What more could the jehadis have asked for? :D


And if you have time please read these articles to get rid of your ignorance of the creeping islamization of britian.


What is big deal about having ignorant about Sharia in Britain !! It does not affect my life in any way as law abiding person here. If and when the need arises I will have a lawyer who is specialized in Sharia. Not knowing the things is better than knowing wrong things.


Quote:
A few years back sharia courts looked impossible. Now they are a reality in britian.
Wake up. islam is taking over britian while the natives are behaving like dhimmis.


It was not an impossible situation in theory. Everyone knew it was just a matter of time. I also dont believe that the natives are behaving like dhimmis.

Zin wrote:
Why have they been given this extra priviledge?
The only reason is that muslims have been allowed sharia is due to threat of violence.
Muslims of Britian : Give us sharia or we blow you? :D


They can and they did for all these years. Now if they want certain priviledges under right of religious freedom what can the government do ?
It is not muslims, Jews have special courts too so what is wrong !!


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 22:49 
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Regarding Graham Staines murder and other such cases, this old column written in 2003 by Arvind Lavakare must be read in full.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/05arvind.htm

Quote:
Even the Central Bureau of Investigation's testimony in court that the Bajrang Dal had no links with any of the 18 accused in the Graham Staines murder in January 1999 hasn't satisfied the media secularists.

The Indian Express of January 29, 2003 (without a by-line) contained enough spice of suspicion about what the CBI officer said on oath.

Thus, that report dubbed the concerned CBI officer's testimony 'surprising as the accused named in the FIR had been earlier described as members of the Bajrang Dal. Even several prosecution witnesses had deposed before the trial judge that the accused were shouting slogans like 'Bajrang Dal zindabad' before setting Staines and his sons on fire.'

Note how the above paragraph makes the reader believe that

i. all the 18 accused had been described in CBI's FIR as Bajrang Dal members, and

ii. the CBI contradicted that description with impunity before the trial judge.

The fact is totally different as reported under the by-line of Jitendra Dash on the Hindustan Times web site The latter recorded that what the CBI officer told the court was: 'Although the FIR lodged by the CBI had identified six persons, including Dara Singh as members of the Bajrang Dal, we did not find evidence to corroborate this claim.'

Clearly, only six of the accused, and not all the 18, were given the Bajrang Dal tag in the CBI's FIR; clearly, the CBI came to a different conclusion only after it did not get corroborative evidence to justify that tag.

The 'secular' media's belligerent attitude towards the Hindutva forces has been pronounced since the rape of four missionary nuns in Jhabua in September 1998. The English press screamed 'rapists' at the Bajrang Dal and the world echoed that scream. It was later, much later, that the rape was revealed as being really an intra-Christian mess.

In the X-mas week of that year came the attacks on Christian prayer halls in Dangs and Surat districts of Gujarat. Once again there were flaming outbursts in the English media against the Hindutva votaries; once again, the world poured oil into those 'fires.' It was later, much later, discovered that not a single Christian had been killed in those clashes, and that the original sinners were not Hindu 'fanatics.'

Very soon thereafter was the episode in Wyanad in northern Kerala when the 'secularists' reported that a priest and four women were beaten up and a Bible was stolen by... 'fanatical' Hindus, who else? An FIR on those lines was lodged with the police, Communist processions against those 'atrocities' were held all over Kerala and the press went berserk once again. Later, all this was found as untrue by an Indian Express reporter.

Then came the Staines murder in January 1999. Not only the press but also the President of India cried 'murder most foul.' The USA and the rest of the Christian world pounced on Hindutva and, in the process, humiliated the entire nation.

Unknown to the public, the President had taken keen interest in the affair. Thus, he granted an interview to four Communist leaders headed by an MP who wanted to show him a charred wrist watch that a team of MPs had found at the murder scene during their visit there. After meeting them, the President thought it fit to write on February 23, 1999 to Home Minister L K Advani, informing him that the four Left leaders had met him and showed him the watch, and that he had told one of them to hand the watch directly to the authorities investigating the matter after contacting the home minister. (Source: Justice D P Wadhwa Commission Report, June 21, 1999)

To give the benefit of doubt to the then President, he probably did what he did because, close on the Staines murder, there were newspaper headlines about the rape of one Sister Jacqueline Mary in Gadadeuilia, Baripada district in Orissa by one of the persons who had offered her a lift on February 4, 1999.

Just a few days later came reports of a multiple crime: the murder of one boy aged 10, attempt to murder another and rape and murder of a 19-year-old girl in Mandasaru village, Kandamal district, Orissa. All the victims were Christians.

The newspapers had gone to town over the above two incidents. On the Sister Mary episode, The Telegraph of Calcutta had screamed 'Nun gangraped by men in sari in Orissa' and The Indian Express had come up with 'Orissa's second stain: nun raped.' What's more, The New India Express, Bhubaneswar, of February 6, 1999, reported that a bipartisan group of 24 US influential lawmakers had written to Prime Minister Vajpayee expressing grave concern over increase in the anti-Christian violence in Gujarat and Orissa.

The Mamdasaru tragedy led to headlines of 'Two Christians killed, one injured in Orissa,' '2 Tribals done to death in Kandhamal' and 'Orissa hunts for Christian killers.'

Long after this media sensationalising had done the damage to Hindutva and the nation's government, investigations found that Sister Mary had filed a false FIR and that that she had not, in fact, been raped. The crime in Kandamal was found to have been committed by a Christian relative of the Christian victims.

It's because of the above kind of sensationalism that the Wadhwa Commission Report, while coming to the conclusion that 'There is no evidence that any authority or organisation was behind the gruesome killings' of Graham Staines and his sons, recommended that 'There should be a Code of Conduct for the political parties' whereby 'Leaders cannot make statements merely for gaining political mileage. Their statements should be subdued and not to fan the fire when the atmosphere is communally charged. Allow the police to make independent investigation of the crime uninfluenced by politics or religion or caste.'

However, considering that politicians are influenced almost entirely by newspaper headlines (which they often hold up in Parliament), the Wadhwa Commission's plea to the media is more critical than its advice to politicians. The Commission recommended, 'Media, both print and electronic, has also to exercise restraint. Screaming headlines should be avoided which have the effect of misleading the public and creating more tension and suspicion among different communities. Reporting of communal strife should not be done without proper verification or an ordinary crime given a communal twist.'

But our media seemed to have been upset by the Wadhwa Commission's refusal to associate the Bajrang Dal with the Staines murder. One news channel even permitted a debate in which two participants almost rebuked the Commission's finding. It was not surprising therefore that the media world also bypassed the evidence of one Binod Kishore Das, a doctor of medicine degree holder from the US, who was a weekly visitor to Staines' leprosy home in Baripada.

Das told the Commission Staines had a great hatred for other religions, that though he would be simply dressed he lived a lavish lifestyle, that he had modern gadgets in his home and that even for a minor disease he would go to either Jamshedpur or Calcutta.

The Wadhwa Commission itself found a report of January-February 1999 containing Staines' description of the Sanatan Dharma as 'an animist sect.'

More importantly, our media completely ignored the Commission's plea for restraint in reporting on communal strife. Their reaction to the post-Godhra situation in Gujarat was ample proof of that.

The issue here is the sheer irresponsibility of the media. Whether it is Godhra, Tehelka, petrol pump allocations or the Ansal Plaza killing of terrorists, our media seems to believe it will attract its audience only if it dresses to kill, or, as some newspapers have patented, it undresses models in colour. That it is not accountable to anyone in the country except to its proprietors' profit and loss account abets that belief. No wonder the ICE World section of Business Standard dated January 29, 2003, says The Times of India charges fees to PR agencies for publishing their releases. Are we then headed for editorials charged at so many rupees per column centimetre?

Our media demands foolproof accountability from every institution in our land, including the judiciary. Why then doesn't it demand the same from itself?


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 23:00 
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http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... ectionid=4

Is blast injured patient in AIIMS one of 2 who placed bomb?

Security agencies are keeping a close watch on a youth, who was injured in the bomb blast in South Delhi on Saturday, suspecting that he could be one of the two persons who planted the explosive.

Police claimed to have recovered three passports, SIM cards and bag stashed with Rs 500 currency notes from him.

The injured, whose identity was not disclosed, was undergoing treatment in the AIIMS trauma centre and would be made available to security agencies for questioning once he had recovered completely, sources said on Sunday.

The injured person was brought from Mehrauli blast site on Saturday and he had received injuries in his back.

Till Saturday, some people claiming to be the youth's relatives were hovering around the hospital premises but today they seemed to have vanished after security agencies and police started enquiring about the patient.

The bomb was suspected to be placed at Mehrauli by two men in their mid-twenties.


My comments - I hope and if not then in the future, police should be discreat and follow these relatives. They will invariably lead to the ring master. If they are not shadowing these relatives then it is incompetence of the highest order


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 23:21 
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So very interesting. The issue is one of bomb blasts in Delhi, of course as an addendum to blasts in Bangalore, and Ahmedabad, and all the intersting places in India over the last few years and the discussion pulls in Bajrang Dal and Graham Staines. Sheer genuis.

It doesnt matter who disrupts life in a society, they need to be brought down fast and hard. Needless to say, it doesnt matter what faith they profess, but the current commentry by the seculars in the media and elsewhere stinks! May they rot in hell, no better still, may they lose their loved ones to the same scourge they gloss over. Thats an adharmic thing to say, but yes, I'll say it, may they lose their loved ones to this scourge...

The biggest mistake IMHO that these secular make is calling and treating the murder of the innocents as an acceptable price to pay to see if they can "buy" peace. A**H**** IMHO. Who gave them that right. If you so believe so much, they you pay the price personally, place yourself or your kin on the altar and then claim the moral right to preach. Till then high falutin talk is just that and full of gobar.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 23:21 
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kshirin wrote:
OK don't ban BD, but stop them from distracting us from the real threat please our politicians cannot multi task as you can see.


What are real threat KShirin ?


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008 23:45 
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pradeepe wrote:
So very interesting. The issue is one of bomb blasts in Delhi, of course as an addendum to blasts in Bangalore, and Ahmedabad, and all the intersting places in India over the last few years and the discussion pulls in Bajrang Dal and Graham Staines. Sheer genuis.

It doesnt matter who disrupts life in a society, they need to be brought down fast and hard. Needless to say, it doesnt matter what faith they profess, but the current commentry by the seculars in the media and elsewhere stinks! May they rot in hell, no better still, may they lose their loved ones to the same scourge they gloss over. Thats an adharmic thing to say, but yes, I'll say it, may they lose their loved ones to this scourge...

The biggest mistake IMHO that these secular make is calling and treating the murder of the innocents as an acceptable price to pay to see if they can "buy" peace. A**H**** IMHO. Who gave them that right. If you so believe so much, they you pay the price personally, place yourself or your kin on the altar and then claim the moral right to preach. Till then high falutin talk is just that and full of gobar.


Pradeepe Shiv is the only person who specifically did eq/eq vis-a-vis SIMI and Bajarang Dal, joined by Rye


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 00:00 
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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 02:02 
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While the native faiths are cornered by the Islamists and EJs working together, no defensive strategy will succeed. By letting the discussion be about BD, that is precisely what we are doing. We should only allow discussions on "causes" and not "effects" and "equal-equals". Let the discussion be on

(1) Why Shahi Imam is programming the large minority to verge of anti-national? Where is he getting the guts from (funding/support)? "Technically" easy : Ask him to condemn 911 or SIMI's agenda and emails. Ask him who in his opinion has sent the mails and planted bombs. And it will be right under the surface.

(2) Bring induced-conversion into spotlight. Have a debate with all effected. Ask where they are getting funds from and corner on propaganda.. including how Dhara Singh is not related or about the alleged rape of nuns in Jhabua. Bring their credibility down.. "Technically" easy..

The problem is the P-secs and foriegn funded media houses will be like "over my dead body" and worse they don't do homework on facts and let all kind of allegations remain and become defacto "facts". The key is to put right kind of pressure on these groups and put them on the defensive, they were on defensive immediately after Officer Sharma's death, but the momentum is lost now.

I hear about so many groups (Islamic/Christian) coming together and putting pressure on the Govt, but where is the organised pressure to act on terrorism (it is sickening that we need groups for this... but well)? Ofcourse it helps to have a leverage and these religious groups have plenty on Congress in terms of vote-banks and we "apparently" don't. But I believe we do have some on media..

Media gets away with a lot of BS by not allowing direct callers, it gets to filter the mails and guests and hence control the debates. But when it does allow direct callers, attension should be brought to the above.. Any other ideas?


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 02:20 
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Location: Deep Freezer
How many here think that the scope and jurisdiction of NHRC(National Human Rights Commission)'s investigations of Police treatment should be reduced to treatment of regular criminals, thugs, robbers, molesters, rapists etc but exclude human rights monitoring of police treatment of Terrorists, Naxalites etc?
Unlike regular criminals the terrorists and naxalites pose an Existential threat to the country, a risk too big to endure in the name of human rights. If the country doesn't survive whose human rights will anyways?


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 02:22 
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harik wrote:
kshirin wrote:
OK don't ban BD, but stop them from distracting us from the real threat please our politicians cannot multi task as you can see.


What are real threat KShirin ?


Islamic terrorism.

I am thankful to facts provided by nkumar for correcting my misperception.


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 02:57 
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Shirin ji

BD can at worst be called anti-social whereas SIMI is anti-national. There is a big difference. The latter poses existential threat that the former does not.


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 08:21 
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Joined: 18 Jun 2008 23:53
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Location: what about it?
kshirin wrote:
OK don't ban BD, but stop them from distracting us from the real threat please our politicians cannot multi task as you can see.


Ideally, this should suffice. But, for one, there has to be a vent for these localized issues, so it will be Ram Sena or somebody if not BD. Unfortunately, in a disconnected society like ours, where most pockets of the nation are unaware of big picture, it is just impossible to keep them in check.

Moreover, all it takes is a sneeze from BD or somebody and the media/EJ juggernaut will come full force on VHP. While large massacres like in Bengal go unnoticed, small incident in remote northeast will make P-secs and media work overtime. So, if we fucus our limited energy and efforts on keeping these skirmishes in check, then we can never catch up with the real battles.

Having said that, I understand we may have to throw something, but its not like we have a whole lot of them in store. Precisely why we need to keep this topic for a later time. For now, put EJs/Islamists on defensive, I mean if we can't do that after wholesale bomb blasts and losing a best cop, then got save us!!


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2008 09:08 
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Joined: 20 Sep 2008 20:21
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ashish raval wrote:
What is big deal about having ignorant about Sharia in Britain !! It does not affect my life in any way as law abiding person here. If and when the need arises I will have a lawyer who is specialized in Sharia.


Sharia says a kafir(non-muslims) like you should be killed.
Before you get your sharia lawyer to represent you, you will be dead meat.
:D

ashish raval wrote:
Not knowing the things is better than knowing wrong things.

:rotfl:
So being ignorant is better than knowing sharia, the law of the devil.
See how the peaceful muslims are behaving by using fire bombs.

Publisher of "The Jewel of Medina" gets fire bombed by muslims of emirate of britian

Police arrested three men on Saturday in connection with a fire at the offices of the publisher of a book about the Prophet Mohammed and his child bride.
The men, aged 22, 30 and 40, were arrested in north London under anti-terrorism legislation after the fire on Saturday morning at Gibson Square's offices. Police were also searching four addresses in east London.

Britain's domestic Press Association news agency said some residents, whom it did not identify, reported that the incident may have involved a petrol bomb being pushed through the firm's letterbox.

Gibson Square is responsible for the publication of "The Jewel of Medina" -- a fictional account of the Prophet's relationship with his youngest bride Aisha -- by American author Sherry Jones.

Random House announced last month it had cancelled publication of the book in the United States because of fears of violence.

"The Jewel of Medina" was re-released in Serbia earlier this month after being withdrawn in August under pressure from Islamic leaders.

Martin Rynja, publishing director at Gibson Square, earlier this month defended the decision to publish the book, saying that in "an open society there has to be open access to literary works, regardless of fear."

"As an independent publishing company, we feel strongly that we should not be afraid of the consequences of debate," he added.

Gibson Square could not be immediately contacted for comment on Saturday's fire and subsequent arrests.



ashish raval wrote:
It is not muslims, Jews have special courts too so what is wrong !!

AoA, pulling this equal-equal with jews.
Why do you bring jews here? Trying to hide behind jews?
Are jews going about bombing trains or buses in Britian? no.
Are muslims doing so? yes.
Are both of them equal? No.
This is not ummah child rapist forum that you can fool people here.
Start understanding jewism and islam before trying to throw this equal-equal bs here.


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