Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Oct 2008 22:02

satya wrote:
This takes the grand total of SMERCH launchers on order to 80 :

Russia to deliver another 18 Smerch rocket launchers to India
38 were ordered in past . Add another 'additional' 18( as per this news report now so total is 56 ) not 80 .

38+24 were ordered earlier . With this 18 it becomes 80. I hope they integrate Nishant UAV with this system.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Oct 2008 07:43

vavinash wrote:38+24 were ordered earlier . With this 18 it becomes 80. I hope they integrate Nishant UAV with this system.

Ahem...sorry i'm a novice in this tech. How and why would anybody integrate a UAV with an MRBL? Is it to scout for and acquire targets? Is there anything else?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 08 Oct 2008 07:47

I agree you are a novice. Read up on Smerch and the UAV russia had offered.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Oct 2008 10:30

The UAV has two applications in regards to the Smerch:

- The first is a small T90-11 UAV that deploys out of 9M534 rocket, this is quite a small system so its endurance will be quite limited. From memory I believe it has a tv camera that can transit on the fly back to CP. However one thing that we gotta take into account is that if this uav is used in a recce role then it creates a problem because the enemy might be able to plot the location of the firing battery with counter battery radars. Probably a better choice to use them in a BDA role.

- The second UAV system would be something like a tactical Nishant uav system which would supply recce data and would scout ahead for likely targets and survey the battlefield.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 08 Oct 2008 10:42

Folks, the UAV integration with reference to the Artillery systems (in the Indian context at least) is with reference to increasing accuracy of the rockets themselves after launch. This is kind of like a mid-course guidance stuff so that the rocket corrects its course as it heads to a target based on what the UAV is "lasing" on the ground ahead. In other words, what you have is active targeting from the UAV rather than just target acquisition. The mission controller chooses what target he wants to hit and the rockets correct for the changes during flight. This is being planned for the Pinaka for sure. That's where the Nishant UAV comes into the picture. You don't have to actually launch the UAV from the site of the launchers but instead integrate existing UAVs flying overhead to do the job for you.

However, I admit that I may not be up to date on what the Russians are doing for Smerch though.

Basically with these kind of modifications you have what amounts to ground launched 'smart' weapons.

-Vivek

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Oct 2008 10:47

Vivek with flying the UAV from the site of the launchers I was reffering to the UAV that's fired from the rocket itself.
What you said about the Nishant is exactly what they have in mind as a role for the UAV.

Thanks.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 08 Oct 2008 10:56

Yesterday there was flash on TimesNow Tv that Maharastra cheif minister vilas rao deshmukh is about to sign a Agreement with Russian Aircraft Giant,and is in Delhi to discuss Modalities.
My Spidey Sense says Mig 35 is almost certain winner of MRCA and they are looking to setup a plant

Any Info From any Gurus?

Thanks

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 08 Oct 2008 11:05

narayana wrote:Yesterday there was flash on TimesNow Tv that Maharastra cheif minister vilas rao deshmukh is about to sign a Agreement with Russian Aircraft Giant,and is in Delhi to discuss Modalities.
My Spidey Sense says Mig 35 is almost certain winner of MRCA and they are looking to setup a plant

Any Info From any Gurus?

Thanks

narayana saar, check this: http://www.domain-b.com/aero/aero_mfg/2 ... ukhoi.html

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 08 Oct 2008 11:11

Deshmukh is signing the agreement with Sukhoi for RRJ Plant to come up in Nagpur MIHAN SEZ..

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 08 Oct 2008 14:17

Isn't price of CBU-105/BLU-108 going to be exorbitantly high? One CBU contains 10 BLU-108 and each BLU-108 contains 4 skeet warheads. So a CBU will have 40 warheads each having it's own IR seeker and LRF. So in one bomb, there will be 40 IR seekers and 40 LRFs. Eventhough the IR/laser sensor's required ranges would be less in this case but still I guess 40 pairs will cost a lot.

Cheers....

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 08 Oct 2008 23:53

renukb wrote:
they routinely do.
No they can't. May be a wink here and there by the unkle...That's about it. Us has to do that for various reasons.

pls be serious. israel most of the time acts in its own interests and many times its arms export activities have slipped under the radar of the US. as if israel handing over the plans of lavi (developed with US money in part) were in US interest. there are so many areas where israels cooperation with 3rd party were not cleared by US.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 09 Oct 2008 02:41

neerajbhandari wrote:Isn't price of CBU-105/BLU-108 going to be exorbitantly high? One CBU contains 10 BLU-108 and each BLU-108 contains 4 skeet warheads. So a CBU will have 40 warheads each having it's own IR seeker and LRF. So in one bomb, there will be 40 IR seekers and 40 LRFs. Eventhough the IR/laser sensor's required ranges would be less in this case but still I guess 40 pairs will cost a lot.

Cheers....

The price is $ 735,000 per weapon. IAf wants 510 of these + 19 test sets. Total cost $ 375 mil. I don't think its too pricey for the capability it offers. It would be a good idea to stock up more in second batch. Maybe 1000 odd more.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 09 Oct 2008 06:18

Address by the Chief of Air Staff at the air Force Day Parade 2008 at af STN Hindon

Technical evaluation of the ‘Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft’ is in progress and the flight trials should commence next year. The long awaited Hawk trainers, have been inducted, and flying training has commenced at Bidar. 17 pilots have already finished the consolidation stage. The first ‘Boeing Business Jet’ has arrived, and the first ‘Airborne Warning and Control System’ is expected early next year. Contract for the C-130J Special Operations aircraft has been signed and will operate from this very Base, in a couple of years. Helicopters in the Medium, Light and Attack class are also in the pipeline. There are many more projects in varying stages of completion. It is indeed an exciting time for our Air Force!

The first BEL manufactured ‘Rohini’ Radar has been inducted with many more in the pipeline. Medium, High and Low Level Radars will also follow. Acquisition process for Surface to Air Missiles, to beef up our Air Defence capability, has commenced.

All these assets will be integrated through the ‘Integrated Air Command and Control System’, and AFNET with the Command & Control centres. We seek to harness the capabilities of Space and Cyberspace to dominate the Information domain and increase transparency for better situational awareness.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 09 Oct 2008 09:27

vavinash wrote:
neerajbhandari wrote:Isn't price of CBU-105/BLU-108 going to be exorbitantly high? One CBU contains 10 BLU-108 and each BLU-108 contains 4 skeet warheads. So a CBU will have 40 warheads each having it's own IR seeker and LRF. So in one bomb, there will be 40 IR seekers and 40 LRFs. Eventhough the IR/laser sensor's required ranges would be less in this case but still I guess 40 pairs will cost a lot.

Cheers....
The price is $ 735,000 per weapon. IAf wants 510 of these + 19 test sets. Total cost $ 375 mil. I don't think its too pricey for the capability it offers. It would be a good idea to stock up more in second batch. Maybe 1000 odd more.

Yes indeed a nice weapon to have and it has IIR sensor

. I was just comaring costs with LGBs and JDAM which costs about 20-30K $ for one kit. But yes the cost is justified since one bomb is enough to wipe out an armoured column (350m X 350m) which may require many sorties/bombs endangering valuable pilots and aircrafts.

Cheers...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Oct 2008 14:20

510 of these babies is actually quite a lot - their destructive capability is awesome.
jingambo khush hua!

bart · Post by **bart** » 10 Oct 2008 02:14

I wonder how such a small submunition can reliably take out a tank, when tank rounds fired at close range have a tough time doing so?

Not saying it doesnt work, just want to know how?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 10 Oct 2008 05:25

Gurus this latest development of us getting Amrikhan SFWs is all well and good considering it packs a lot of punch for its size and can attack multiple targets as compared to LGBs/JDAM, but and this is a big "BUT" IMHO there are a couple of points that I wanted to consider:

- From looking at the vids of the SFW it seems that the plane that drops these babies is almost flying over the target area or it has to come really close to drop these off. Now the JDAM and the LGB have a certain stand off range and the JDAM can be dropped from high alt. The vids show the cbu being dropped from what i can judge low to med alt.

- Considering our potential adversaries both of whom have a good Shorad network, their convoys will always be accompanied with them. So if we are using a SFW against an armoured convoy from one of their armies then the plane carrying and releasing the weapon would not be able to do so without getting in range of the Shorads.

I am not arguing for or against the SFW or the JDAM for that matter but I think we should consider how will the SFWs be deployed against armoured columns that can defend themselves from these attacks (in terms of being able to potentially shoot down the plane before it deploys)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Oct 2008 05:50

bart wrote:I wonder how such a small submunition can reliably take out a tank, when tank rounds fired at close range have a tough time doing so?

Not saying it doesnt work, just want to know how?

top attack. it uses a shaped charge to punch through the less armoured upper side of the tank.
I'm not sure how well it will fare if tanks start deploying top armour one fine morning but against armoured cars, APCs and light skin vehicles it should have no problem.

I hope DRDO lives up to its promise of a similar weapon, one with more capable munitions and stand-off range even if the number of submunitions is much less (say 10 instead of 40). the point anand raises above is a very valid one.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 10 Oct 2008 07:08

^^^
Rahul IMHO I dont think the Amrikhans would include the CBU as an active frontline weapon if they were fighting the dragon or any country with any mobile AD/Shorads because of the reasons mentioned above. If the JASSM can carry these sket warheads then its probably a much better choice as it has a good stand off range...ofcourse we dont know whether unkil will sell us something like that

I remember reading quite some time back that there were single stage boosters that were added to paveway IIs to give them a stand off range.
Maybe the DRDO can do something similar to what they are working on, that way they can have a large weapon in dimensions and weight (>/=1000kg) that can carried by the Rambha and launched at a predetermined date. This would mean that they would have a thermal sig but if the booster is a short burn one then it will add enough velocity to the weapon, add to that wings that the JASSM has and it can effectively use the push of the booster to glide across.

- If DRDO is able to add GPS to it then it will know exactly when to deploy the SKET/DESI warheads. I think GPS would be the better option simply because the plane deploying the weapon wont have to worry about staying the area or for that matter depend on someone else thats lasing the target.

Also another mod that could be carried out is if these warheads have retarding parachutes then maybe we can release them in med to high alt just like the Alarm of the RAF. Once the targets are acquired by the IIR seekers they could detach the parachute and fall straight down to the target. That way the attacking plane will not have to go into the range of the columns shorads.
Another choice is that once the submunitions are released they let them fall for a while before deploying the skets, that way the skets deploy at low alt as done now, ofcourse that means that if the column is moving then the weapon would need to deploy the submunitions in a wide area dont think that should be a problem.

Just my 2 cents.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 10 Oct 2008 07:36

I have a query. The youtube video shows the shaped charge of warhead firing at considerable distance from the target. But as per my knowledge the shaped charge works fine only within a short distance. Can someone explain?

Cheers...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Oct 2008 08:23

neeraj, SFW uses a special class of shaped charge precisely for this reason.
it's called Explosively formed penetrator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosivel ... penetrator

An explosively formed penetrator (EFP), is a type of petard also known as an explosively formed projectile, a self-forging warhead, or a self-forging fragment, is a special type of shaped charge designed to penetrate armour effectively at stand-off distances.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 10 Oct 2008 11:17

Thanks for the info.

Cheers....

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 12 Oct 2008 11:15

OT.
what does this have to do with India ? post such news items in the international military discussion thread.
Rahul

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Oct 2008 11:43

renukb wrote:OT.
what does this have to do with India ? post such news items in the international military discussion thread.

And why do you think this is OT???

- We were discussing about a weapon that could well be inducted in the IAF arsneal
- All I did was to publish my viewpoint on its vulnerability
- Neeraj had a genuine question about shaped charge that is used by this very weapon
- Rahul replied with an aswer

All in all 4 posts none of them OT...I understand that you are enthu for maintaining the thread Renukb BUT thats what the Moderators are for and they do a bloody good job So...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2008 11:45

anand, those were my comments !

renukb had posted a news article on russia's proposed aircraft carriers.

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 12 Oct 2008 13:03

RM, which thread did u move it to ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2008 14:15

renukb wrote:RM, which thread did u move it to ?

I didn't. it's not possible to move each and every off topic post.
we try to do as much as we can but it's simply not possible every time.
please be careful to post stuff in relevant threads.
regards.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Oct 2008 17:33

RenukB & Rahul my apoligies.

(Pahile sochneka phir ghoda dabaneka...ooopsie

)

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 Oct 2008 04:38

EADS plans local arm, MRO facility for helicopters

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 14 Oct 2008 08:59

Does this impact the Barak2 program?

Govt not to buy any more Barak missiles

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Oct 2008 10:25

what about phalcons? or for that matter all those projects which are getting their help, including the MMR,

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2008 10:44

afair, Skeet warhead carrying weapons are capable of being released from 40,000ft
cruising B-52s. thats near the ceiling of most mobile AAA, manpads and small SAMs
that could accompany vehicular columns. even the big BUK missile maxes out at
45000ft, so small fry like Tor that can launch volleys of SAMs are 20,000ft only.

so basically if a sortie of raiders at 30,000ft comes upon a column below and
there is no static SAM protecting them, they can be bombarded with LGBs
or skeets with immunity. skeet is better - you can launch a shower and leave
the area, LGBs need individual designation on long flight down.

"Diamondback" range extention wing kits are also proliferating and could increase
range of routine bombs to 50km if launched high and fast.

and if Chipanda moves S300 units forward to protect their resupply route
in overlapping bubbles, these can be attacked from the air and with brahmos.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 14 Oct 2008 12:03

krishnan wrote:what about phalcons? or for that matter all those projects which are getting their help, including the MMR,

If it does affect those projects, it'll be nothing less than shooting oneself in the foot. I dont get it. These babus create an environment where even the better companies are forced to bribe the middlemen otherwise they stand to lose out. And then under the pretext of stamping out corruption, they ban some important military cos thus undermining the nation's security.

Stopping critical purchases just because of possible corruption/allegations during election period, shows the helplessness of the Govt. in dealing with the rot within the system.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Oct 2008 12:07

correction, its system within the rot

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Oct 2008 12:58

The Israeli lobby is too well entrenched and infuential to allow a Bofors/Denel repeat,IMHO....

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 14 Oct 2008 13:48

sum wrote:The Israeli lobby is too well entrenched and infuential to allow a Bofors/Denel repeat,IMHO....

I certainly hope so. Never thought we'd see a day when we're depending on other nation's lobby to provide us critical equipment.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Oct 2008 16:19

Thats the karma catching up for neglect of domestic capabilities and brochure-itis of the forces till the start of this decade!!!

Sadly, even this hasn't opened the eyes of the forces completely as the arjun saga suggests...

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 16 Oct 2008 21:18

India readies large-scale UAV procurement programme

India is planning to significantly upgrade its unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) capability over the next decade in order to enhance situational awareness along its land and maritime borders.

Official sources said the army was planning to procure a large number of manportable mini- and nano-UAVs with short-range intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and laser-designation capabilities, as well as the ability to detect nuclear, biological and chemical weapons inside enemy territory.

The army also intends to acquire weaponised UAVs similar to the General Atomics RQ-1 Predator, which can be armed with Hellfire missiles. These will be deployed largely along the disputed borders with Pakistan and China.

At present, India operates around 70 Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI)-built Searcher Mk 1 and Mk 2 and Heron UAVs, as well as 30 Harpy ground attack drones designed to detect and destroy enemy radars.

"A larger number of UAVs would constitute an integral ingredient of the burgeoning network-centric warfare capability that all three Indian services are seeking to execute the full spectrum of war," a three-star Indian Air Force officer told Jane's.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2008 21:21

Official sources said the army was planning to procure a large number of manportable mini- and nano-UAVs with short-range intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance and laser-designation capabilities, as well as the ability to detect nuclear, biological and chemical weapons inside enemy territory.

Is the IA still in the procure everything from abroad mode or is the DRDO developing a significant portion of UAV range which the IA wants?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Oct 2008 21:38

Can UAV's detect chemical weapons?