Indian Autos Thread

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 12 Oct 2008 19:31

No point in anybody buying that rusty old company, with all its union liabilities.

It's now looking like Tata's purchase of Jaguar and Landrover was quite foolish.

India should definitely stay away from the big rusting hulks like the Big3. They are definitely dinosaurs.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 13 Oct 2008 03:08

Purchases of overseas companies mean access to their markets, manpower with new technical expertise and dealership networks. Every company should be seen on a case-by-case basis. However, it would make better sense to buy some assets, patents, technologies from GM instead of buying the whole company which would come with lots of liability like UAW, pensions for workers etc. Also most americans buy the cars of Big 3 mostly out of nationalistic fervour which will not hold once an indian company takes over. so there will be a huge loss of customers anyways.
Besides the Big 3 heavily outsource their component manufacturing to auto ancillaries. A lot of new technology might be with these component manufacturers and not with Big 3 themselves. Makes more sense to buy out these ancillary companies instead.

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Oct 2008 07:29

Sanjay M wrote:No point in anybody buying that rusty old company, with all its union liabilities.

It's now looking like Tata's purchase of Jaguar and Landrover was quite foolish.

India should definitely stay away from the big rusting hulks like the Big3. They are definitely dinosaurs.

Boss,

Jaguar and Landrover are not in the same class as GM so I don't think it's right to put them in the same basket.

While the two do have some historical baggage, they are in no way stretched as much as GM in terms of ridiculous union benefits and moreover are much smaller and hence easier to digest.

Moreover Jaguar has fallen to bad times but lest forget they were pioneers in technologies that make sports cars super performers. In fact Jaguar's suspension technology is something other companies drool over and I read somewhere Fiat is interested in collaborating with Tata Motors in order to get a peek at it. And the new Jaguar XF is a car to watch out for. I had the privilege of getting a ride on these beats and Boy Oh Boy, it's a beauty and can, IMO, beat the pants off most other luxury sedan models.

As for Landrover, they've been doing well for the past few years and as far as SUVs are considered these folks still set the standard.

Overally just imagine the amount of technology infusion these companies will give to Tata Motors. In a few years time expect Landrover technology to seep into the Tata SUV line-up.

Actually the two acquisitions may not be of immediate benefit to the Tatas like Corrus was but long term? I think Ratan Tata has once again shown his farsightedness.

Just my two paise!

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 13 Oct 2008 16:12

Auto industry grows 12.70%, exports up 27.83% in Apr-Sept O8

New Delhi, Oct 13 (UNI) The country's auto industry registered a growth of 12.70 per cent during April-September 2008 over the same period a year ago.

According to the figures released by the Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers (SIAM), the growth of passenger vehicles segment during the period was 7.53 per cent at 7,78,804 units over April-September 2007.

The passenger cars segment grew by 5.39 per cent, utility vehicles by 12.53 per cent and Multi Purpose Vehicle by 22.52 per cent in the said period.

The overall commercial vehicle segment registered a growth of 3.79 per cent at 2,21,556 units during the same period, while Medium and Heavy vehicles saw a degrowth of 1.57 per cent as compared to the corresponding period last year.

Light Commercial Vehicles recorded a growth of 10.31 per cent in the April-September 2008 over April-September 2007.

The three-wheeler sales registered a marginal growth of 4.9 per cent, with passenger carriers growing by 20.35 per cent.

However, goods carriers declined heavily by 32.54 per cent.

The two wheelers segment saw a growth of 11.49 per cent at 38,64,013 units during the same period.

Motorcycles and Scooters grew by 12.58 per cent and 7.24 per cent, respectively, whereas mopeds registered a growth of 6.05 per cent and electric two-wheelers posted a whopping increase of 56.14 per cent during April-September 2008.

The overall exports for the period April-September 2008 registered a growth of 27.38 per cent, data said.

Passenger vehicles and Two-Wheelers segment grew by 52.76 per cent at 1,57,611 units and 27.06 per cent at 5,19,684, respectively.

Exports of Commercial vehicles also grew marginally at 0.82 per cent to 27,194 units, and three-wheelers registered a growth of 1.67 per cent at 69,879 units in April-September 2008.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Oct 2008 19:43

Electric vehicle revolution

Excellent writeup in India today on the E2Vs. Any BRFite own one? Howz it in general to operate in our desi urban conditions? Why aren't these selling 10x more than the current volumes of 1.5L p.a.? Pls 2 shower some gyan. TIA.

Besides duty, there are quality issues too. Around 20 per cent of the bikes tested, says an official of the International Centre for Automotive Technology, Gurgaon, are rejected as they do not meet standards which exclude safety norms. Companies are also facing the challenge of increasing range-currently 60-80 km per charge-of the vehicles.

Deba Ghoshal, director-marketing, Ultra Motors, says they hope to change over to lithium-ion batteries which could virtually double the range. But given the price difference in the two batteries-almost double- consumers will have to wait a while till volumes kick in.

There are, of course, other areas of concern like inadequate infrastructure or charging stations, lead pollution and battery disposal and safety issues. Manufacturers are also pressing the Government to subsidise technology so they can circumvent high costs. The E2V has hit the road in a big way. But the journey is not without its challenges.

So, a worthy alternative to petrol might already be on the horizon at least in 2 wheelers, seems like! Best piece of news I've heard in this sector since the Nano came about. An electric nano 10 yrs down can knock the pants off any competition, am sure. Go, yindia!

The rising popularity of E2Vs is not difficult to understand. An E2V costs about Rs 30,000 compared to a regular petrol bike which starts at Rs 40,000. Electric bikes also accord significant savings in fuel and maintenance. The running cost of a petrol bike is Re 1/km while that of an E2V is Re 0.5-0.10.

Moreover, if a petrol vehicle costs Rs 1,500-2,000 a quarter to maintain, an E2V requires a basic wash that costs Rs 200, no lubricants, no spark plugs and no moving parts. Operational costs are paid monthly through electricity bills and when batteries are replaced, normally every two years.

10 paise per km is a steal, IMO. Can't think of any item nowadays that would retail for 10 paise. OT but IIRC the 10 paisa coin has long been outta circulation, no? Perhaps even the 25-paisa coin 'chavanni' also has faced the axe with the mint stopping production?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 13 Oct 2008 23:32

NOw they are shouting

Nano Bacho, Nano Bulahoo

**
Singur residents request Bengal governor to get Nano back
Indo-Asian News Service
Kolkata, October 13, 2008

Mamata now seeks industry at Singur'Singur to get another car project soon'Gujarat is Nano's new homeResidents of Singur in West Bengal, where global auto major Tata Motors was constructing the factory to manufacture the world's least expensive car Nano, met Governor Gopalkrishna Gandhi in Kolkata on Monday and urged him to request the auto major to resume work.

"The meeting was good. He listened to us patiently and attentively and we talked for long. He told us that he will convey our demands to the state government," Kushal Saha, 41, a resident of Beraberi in Singur supporting the Nano project, told IANS.

"After the Tatas pulled out of the project, the land taken for the Nano project is lying unused. Neither can it be used for agriculture nor can it be used for industrialisation. We want Tata Motors' to come back and restart work," Saha said.

The committee wants the government and the Tata Motors officials to talk to farmers opposed to the project and solve the vexed land acquisition issue that triggered sustained protests and forced the auto major to pull out of the state.

However, the governor advised them to meet state government officials to put forward their demands.

Pro-Nano Singur residents have formed an apolitical platform - the Nano Bachao Committee - representing people who had given their land willingly for the car project and those who were trained to get a job at the factory.

Tata Motors announced on October 3 it was pulling out from troubled Singur and blamed the principal opposition party of the state, the Trinamool Congress, for the "painful" decision.

Trinamool had led the protests against acquisition of land from farmers unwilling to hand over their holdings.

The auto major's decision came 32 days after it decided to suspend operations in the Singur factory fearing for security of its employees who were manhandled and threatened by Trinamool Congress-led protesters, who demanded the return of 400 acres out of the total area 997.11 acres taken for the project.
****

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oldie from professor

"
aawaaz de ke humein tum bulaao
mohabbat mein itanaa, naa hum ko sataao
jo tum par mitaa ho, use naa mitaao
mohabbat mein itanaa, naa hum ko sataao
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lata and Md Rafi

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 13 Oct 2008 23:41

amit wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:No point in anybody buying that rusty old company, with all its union liabilities.

It's now looking like Tata's purchase of Jaguar and Landrover was quite foolish.

India should definitely stay away from the big rusting hulks like the Big3. They are definitely dinosaurs.

Boss,

Jaguar and Landrover are not in the same class as GM so I don't think it's right to put them in the same basket.

While the two do have some historical baggage, they are in no way stretched as much as GM in terms of ridiculous union benefits and moreover are much smaller and hence easier to digest.

Moreover Jaguar has fallen to bad times but lest forget they were pioneers in technologies that make sports cars super performers. In fact Jaguar's suspension technology is something other companies drool over and I read somewhere Fiat is interested in collaborating with Tata Motors in order to get a peek at it. And the new Jaguar XF is a car to watch out for. I had the privilege of getting a ride on these beats and Boy Oh Boy, it's a beauty and can, IMO, beat the pants off most other luxury sedan models.

As for Landrover, they've been doing well for the past few years and as far as SUVs are considered these folks still set the standard.

Overally just imagine the amount of technology infusion these companies will give to Tata Motors. In a few years time expect Landrover technology to seep into the Tata SUV line-up.

Actually the two acquisitions may not be of immediate benefit to the Tatas like Corrus was but long term? I think Ratan Tata has once again shown his farsightedness.

Just my two paise!

Man, if Tata had waited just another 6 months, they could have gotten Jaguar and LandRover for bargain basement prices! Look at how hard-pressed any automaker is right now, in this climate. If Tata had waited, they could have saved a lot of cash!

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 14 Oct 2008 01:03

It is easy to say that now but who would have thought the world is going to be in this position today.

Forecasting automotive trends is one thing but predicting a financial crisis is completely outside the scope of Tatas. No one except banking gurus could have thought of that. Oil price jump(cause of heavy automobiles' sales slump) has to do more with western financial crisis rather than oil wells drying up.

BTW am looking forward to the launch of Tata's electric vehicle in Norway this year - Indica EV. Hope to see electric charging points similar to london in public parking spaces in Indian cities too.

Wind electricity and nooclear electricity is more expensive compared to that from coal. So why not use them for charging e-cars. Cheaper than oil perhaps and less polluting.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Oct 2008 02:10

And who would have financed it???

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 14 Oct 2008 02:29

Tata Leasing and Financing

OR

Ford Financing !

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 Oct 2008 11:22

Pic of oreva the car thats going to challenge the nano. Glad the competition is Indian not some third rate chinese car.

http://www.evworld.com/images/flybo_ev_red.jpg

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Oct 2008 12:37

Cheesy shaped headlights, the BMW kidney grilles in front and a body work that is lifted straight out of the Smart.. All show classic touches of Chinese Panda R&D (ripoff and duplicate).

This thing reeks of Chini Panda . I am willing to bet that if it is Indian , it is imported /assembled out of ChiCom kits and branded as Indian.

Ps: -- Save yourself a lot of grief and dont touch that Oreva junk

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2008 12:46

I doubt indians name their cars "Flybo".

"Ningbo" is a coastal city near Shanghai however.

and I was right!
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/ ... bo.500.jpg
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Ne ... eId=120129

Chinese Flybo Electric Car Coming to America

Date posted: 03-26-2007

EASTON, Pa. — Wuzheng North America, which recently made headlines by bringing in China-made pickup trucks, has made a deal with another Chinese company, to sell electric vehicles here.

The Jinan Flybo Motor Company's flagship is called the XFD-6000ZK. The name is almost longer than the vehicle, which measures 102.3 inches long on a 71-inch wheelbase and looks similar to the Smart from certain angles. Top speed is 45 mph (with the 25-mph limiter removed), and it has a range of 70 miles on a charge. Classified as a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle (NEV), the XFD-6000ZK is "100 percent legal for on-road use," the company says. It and two lower-end electric cars — yes, there are lower-end models — are powered by a 48V electric motor. MSRP on the XFD-6000ZK is $12,950. Complete details are available at the Flybo Web site.

Jinan Flybo Motor is a subsidiary of Shandong Pioneer of the China Qingqi Group, the oldest and biggest motorcycle manufacturer in China. Qingqi was the first local partner of Suzuki back in the 1980s.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2008 12:48

http://www.chitramala.com/news/cheapest ... 08816.html

A close comparison of the Flybo and the newly announced Oreva featured in the ANI video below, would strongly suggest that the Ajanta Group, which is best known in India as a maker of clocks, has leaned heavily on the Chinese to provide them with a fair share of the technology that is found in the company demonstrator car.

The Oreva Group claims the car will have a range of 200-250 kilometers (124-155 miles) per charge, which indicates it will be offered with some form of advanced battery chemistry, either NiMH or lithium, rather than lead-acid. However, conjectures that the car will cost less than the $2,500 Tata Nano at an estimated 0.85 lakh ($1,758US) poses an interesting question about how the company plans to offer the car so cheaply (less than the price of good laptop computer). One possible avenue is for them to sell the car and lease the battery pack.

While the company — which began its electric vehicle venture by building electric bikes and scooters (again with what appears to be a strong Chinese influence) — denies it’s in competition with the Tata Nano, it is most curious that its name bears a very close resemblance to India’s first and — for now — only electric car maker, Reva, located in Bangalore. The Reva, which is exported as far away as Britain, sells for around $8,500US (400,000 Indian rupees), nearly five times the projected price of the Oreva, but it does come with batteries included.

The Oreva will be built at the company’s expansive facilities in Morbi, Gujarat, India. Production was previously announced to begin in the 2009-2010 time frame. This is the same Indian state, near the Pakistan border, that Tata now appears to be planning to build the Nano after running into serious opposition from farmers in West Bengal who opposed the sale of their land to build the plant and facilities for its supporting suppliers.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Oct 2008 12:53

Hmm, oREVA? Can't they get at least a NAME that is original?

Well, what else you can expect from Ajantha, maker of Indian clocks?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2008 13:03

dont know where they got their quartz movements from but Ajanta were good clocks and even
today command a good share in smaller cities and villages in table & wall clocks. pretty much all of
you must have had a Ajanta wall clock at some point.

bart · Post by **bart** » 14 Oct 2008 14:25

Ajanta IIRC was one of the few Indian companies to re-locate factories to China, and the owner was crowing about that to business mags a few years ago.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Oct 2008 21:55

Interesting. After all these months, panda has not yet figured out on how to deal with the megaton H&D bomb that is the Nano. Unlike the west, who generally does (or not) stuff after a measured analysis, the panda is showing its usual knee-jerk reactions to disruptions on its path.

What they are doing is going to help the Indian environment: if their tax-money can subsidize these electric vehicles and push the dirty Bajaj autos out (or make it alter its design) of Indian roads, I would say it is a good thing. Let the chinese people breath pollutants from their car/battery factories that they help the Indians to breath better. selfless peoples indeed

The only caution is that Ajanta be made accountable for spent battery disposal with that battery rental scheme.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Oct 2008 23:06

John

I am talking of the buyout - with credit costly etc.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Oct 2008 05:18

Tata Motors buys into Norwegian co

Tata Motors on Tuesday said that it has acquired majority stake in Norwegian company Miljo Grenland Innovasjon that specialises in the development of innovative solutions for electric vehicles.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 Oct 2008 07:57

Protestors block Tata machinery shift from Singur

edited.

bkumar · Post by **bkumar** » 15 Oct 2008 08:07

^^^ Aren't you a genius? Unfortunately, the best product of your genius is to call names.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 16 Oct 2008 16:22

Doesn't a shift to e-car and other environment friendly techs threaten the very dominance of traditional juggernauts of global auto industry. Imagine having to switch to electric motor driven cars after investing years of research in perfecting the IC engine and the metallurgy of the components therein. Now suddenly all that lead becomes zero and the new leaders in cars will be the ones with best battery technology(not necessarily germans or japs). Wonder if GoI had the foresight to fund a major R&D project on battery technology at some CSIR lab.

Disruptive technologies do level the playing field and this represents a once in a lifetime opportunity for indian auto majors if they jump into the fray and close the gap with german and japanese automakers.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 17 Oct 2008 01:43

Video of Oreva e-car.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 19 Oct 2008 07:02

Doesn't a shift to e-car and other environment friendly techs threaten the very dominance of traditional juggernauts of global auto industry.

it sure does

but i'm sure they are researching it as well and filing patents left & right.

i'm sure though many foreign companies would love to buy up Tata or parts of it if they could.

ramesh chauhan who sold his softdrink empire (limca, mazaa, thumbs-up, goldspot, citra..etc) to coca cola for a song back in 1991 must feel like an idiot.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 19 Oct 2008 09:21

^^The talk then was that Coca Cola bought all the bottling companies and Thumbs up had a tough time finding bottlers. He had no choice but to sell his brands to Coke. It was big money at play. Those days, Indian companies were much smaller than now.

--hanumadu

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 19 Oct 2008 14:08

if that were true, he could have easily taken coke to court for monopolistic practices and got a $$ out of them.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 19 Oct 2008 15:38

Neshant wrote:it sure does

but i'm sure they are researching it as well and filing patents left & right.

A lot of patents are filed but only some % of them are practically useful and get back the return on research investment. Perhaps we can define a figure of merit: IP Efficiency(of a company) as the ratio of commercially useful patents over total patents granted to company in order to measure the effectiveness of research. As of now most companies just look at total patents and feel complacent about it.

Patents in auto industry do not give the kind of exclusivity that the product patent in pharmaceutical industry offers. Rather they give a competitive edge in performance but the ability to totally block the competition does not hold.

Besides most of the technologies that the auto giants have developed so far are too unaffordable for the developing world to switch to. Through licensing the patents and entering strategic agreements, Indian auto majors can easily close the gap.

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 21 Oct 2008 12:41

Tata XOver
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-ca ... ver-2.html

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 21 Oct 2008 17:40

Here is one adulteration that will actually benefit the country. Upto 55% of water by weight

can be mixed with fuel. Indian autos are trying hybrid cars, electric cars, hydrogen cars but I wonder if they have tried this:

Petrol-Water emulsion
http://www.rexresearch.com/gunnrman/gunnrman.htm

Fuel/water emulsions
United States Patent 6280486

Basically the advantage is derived out of increased thermal efficiency. Water absorbs oil combustion heat and expands

Raja · Post by **Raja** » 23 Oct 2008 18:12

Not sure where to post it but since it is supposed to be about Nano..

Tata does ethical u-turn

I quickly scanned it and it seems like Prafool at his best. lol

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 24 Oct 2008 09:39

Tata Marcopolo has started making inroads in Bangalore
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/aug/11 ... alore7.htm

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 24 Oct 2008 18:22

GM Cuts Costs to the Bone

Well, they could learn a thing or two from the Tata Nano, surely...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2008 18:28

Himanshu wrote:Tata Marcopolo has started making inroads in Bangalore
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/aug/11 ... alore7.htm

bad idea.. volvo rules.. tata's should just think the market is for higher end and not for lower end. perhaps, they should marco polo all ksrtc and bts buses.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 24 Oct 2008 18:37

SaiK wrote:
Himanshu wrote:Tata Marcopolo has started making inroads in Bangalore
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/aug/11 ... alore7.htm
bad idea.. volvo rules.. tata's should just think the market is for higher end and not for lower end. perhaps, they should marco polo all ksrtc and bts buses.

I too thought the same before I looked at the price difference. 1 Volvo = 2 Marcopolo buses. This is too much of a price difference to justify for better quality and comfort for a sane businessman. God forbid, if any govt body buys volvo inspite of this, I would consider it a scandal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Oct 2008 18:57

spare parts of the volvo are also very expensive. the state transport corps with the big cost
structure in people and low fares (govt controlled) cannot afford very expensive gear.
KPN, Shama etc pvt players can buy what they want and charge whatever their clients can
bear -mostly itvity types heading to places like kerala, TN, AP...

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 25 Oct 2008 00:25

Let Volvo bring down their Ferrari grade prices. They got away with the oomph factor for so long and never tried to make a difference in the pricing or model positioning. I loved those Sutlej COBUS of Bangalore Airport. Quite wide and happy entry points. Can be used in trunk routes inside Bangalore or on a BRTS system.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 25 Oct 2008 19:42

Per this post, the price difference between Volvo and Marco Polo Buses is not 2X, but 17 lacs. The new Ashok Leyland luxury bus is @ 60 Lacs, Unless there is complete excise tax relief and a massive downgrading of the features it would be difficult for Tata Motors to price Marco Polo buses at 35 lacs.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 31 Oct 2008 03:41

Ken Gibson's passage to India

DRIVE the new Suzuki Alto and you happily believe it is made in Japan and styled for Europe. It looks Japanese, drives with all the easy precision you would expect from a Japanese car and is well screwed together. But it is made in India.

In fact, competitive is very much what the Alto is all about, especially if Suzuki manage a starting price around £7,000 when it goes on sale in the UK next March. At that price, Made In India will seem as acceptable as a curry on a Saturday night.

vina · Post by **vina** » 31 Oct 2008 14:33

Guru log.. I think I will need to buy a small urban runabout for SHQ for the office commute. I am not very kicked about the chauffeur business both from the safety aspect and also flexibility of will come at 9 and leave at promptly 6 kind of thing,plus adding to costs. Funnily enough , SHQ was the one who had the India license, while I had to come and get mine renewed, but she doesnt drive of course.

I think I can talk her into driving and not hiring a chauffeur if it is a car with an automatic transmission.

Is there a good Hyundai, Maruti,Chevy Spark kind of car that is safe (meets Euro NCAP norms , ie currently being sold in Europe ) has airbags and ABS and most importantly is automatic transmission , with a budget of around 4.5 to 5.5 lakhs max, with good fuel economy of course.

Most of the Maruti models (Alto, Zen, Wagon R) are way past sell by date and are due to be junked for new models.. What is the scene with i10 (how I wish they didnt have monkey khan in the adverts) , I am sure there are big discounts going around in that car. It was incredibly overpriced to start with. Does Chevy spark have an auto option ?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.