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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008 22:24 
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georgej wrote:
While I would like to discredit the ENTIRE talk:
[*]Su-30M newest fighter...... Version 5 airplanes ?


last version of mki is phase 3.

Quote:
[*]Tumansky engines
[*]No FOD screens on the std AL-31FP
[*]same air show demonstration as the F-22


you know this.

Quote:
[*]Cope India Su-30K best pilots-Indians pounded their chest


indian su-30 k won almost all of their engagement vs f-15 but it was their own awst which tom tom loss.
in india media woke up after article by chiadnand rajghatta of times india after awst leak

Quote:
[*]Experienced guys comes from Mig-21 Bison has an Israeli radar


bison has kopyo-21 radar

Quote:
[*]the fumbling on PESA question


very right it is surprising
but it shows he doesnt know the real capability of bars radar

in my estimation, su-30 mki is quite easily comparable/superior to f-15k leaving behind legacy fighters


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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008 22:33 
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Vikram_S wrote:
haric wrote:
Issue is not 'well known practices' - Issue is - Are you sure the IAF did this? If so how? Or are you just making assumptions?


if you can post, you can read and so go through whatver i have already written. after that you are free to make your own assumptions and decide the "issue". you will not get more details on the subject from me.

d


I did read.. All i found is a lot of assumptions. "he must have been ordered to ..." "he must have been told to..".. I would like to have some confirmed sources. if you are not going to provide them, then I am sure some of the other members who read this will. (if its true i.e)


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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008 22:42 
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Image


Last edited by p_saggu on 04 Nov 2008 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008 22:51 
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HariC wrote:
Vikram_S wrote:
haric wrote:
Issue is not 'well known practices' - Issue is - Are you sure the IAF did this? If so how? Or are you just making assumptions?


if you can post, you can read and so go through whatver i have already written. after that you are free to make your own assumptions and decide the "issue". you will not get more details on the subject from me.

d


I did read.. All i found is a lot of assumptions. "he must have been ordered to ..." "he must have been told to..".. I would like to have some confirmed sources. if you are not going to provide them, then I am sure some of the other members who read this will. (if its true i.e)


i hope you can find confirmation. i have nothing agaist your wishes even if you choose to interpret my statement anyway per your wish. i have already stated that i will/should not talk more on this or other matter of mki even if info can be found by open search.


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PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008 23:52 
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surya

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20031 ... 7684.shtml

2003

My impression of training system of Indian Air Force

Quote:
In late June, together with other students of the Advanced Course of the PLA Air Force Command Institute, I made a study trip to India, during which we visited the Indian Air Force units and schools, watched their trainings, aircraft assembling, and maintenance and repair, and listened to the briefings given by the departments concerned. Throughout the visit I was deeply impressed by the advanced concept of the Indian Air Force, and their remarkable rules and regulations and scientific way of doing things.


There must first be advanced concepts before military talents can be cultivated
The Indian Air Force believes that officers shoulder the task of producing effective fighting units by combining advanced equipment with well-trained soldiers. The experience of the past wars has proved that the most effective way to achieve this is to improve the quality of commanders. According to the Indian Air Force, the competence and strong leadership of commanders are decisive factors in war, and the cohesion of troops, to a great extent, depends on the quality, art of leadership, professionalism and dedication of commanders. The Indian Air Force also holds that if officers, especially high-ranking officers, are poor in quality, it would result in incompetence of the whole armed forces and to support such an armed forces would be "a great loss of money" for the country.


Perfect rules and regulations must be in place for cultivation of military talents
One of the prominent features of the Indian Air Force in talents cultivation is to avoid randomness. There are specific, rational and complete rules and regulations to ensure the smooth operation of talents policy throughout the process from the import to export of talents.


The Indian Air Force has worked out perfect regulatory systems for recruitment of new recruits, enrolment of cadets by military schools, enrolment of pilots and flying instructors. In 1989, the Indian Air Force officially issued "Temporary Regulations on Recruitment", requiring all the recruits to be secondary school graduates in addition to their political and physical qualifications; for junior military schools, all their students must have official 12-year secondary school diplomas; candidate pilots must hold university degrees in addition to their physical, psychological and moral qualifications; flying instructors must be up to even higher standards. For example, they must have flied for more than 7 to 13 years, with total flying hours no less than 500 hours.

The Indian Air Force has a set of strict rules governing the selection and promotion of officers and transfer of officers' posts. Its training is strict and specific. Flying instructors must complete their training before they are assigned to the posts or before they are promoted to higher posts. Officers have to go to different colleges or institutes to receive training, before they have chance to be promoted. An Indian Air Force commanding officer, if he is to be promoted from pilot officer to air commodore, must receive training in military colleges for 6 to 10 times, and each training course lasts for 3 months to 1 year.

Military talents should be cultivated by relying on the armed forces itself, supplemented by training of civilian colleges

The Indian Air Force holds that military talents cultivation should mainly rely on military schools, and the military school education should be given priority in the development of the armed forces due to its strategic importance. At the same time, national education system should play an important supplementary role.

The Indian Air Force training system has a full range of schools. At the moment, the Indian armed forces have 102 military schools, of which 51 are air force schools (and in addition there are 20 other training organizations for the Air Force). They fall under three categories: command schools for training commanding officers and staff officers which are the main body of the schools of the Indian Air Force; schools for training grassroots backbones, including junior officers, warrant officers and NCOs; schools for training all kinds of technical support personnel. As far as the system is concerned, these schools can be classified into junior schools, intermediate schools and advanced schools.

While letting the military school education playing the leading role, the Indian Air Force also attaches great importance to relying on national educational system in its efforts to cultivate military talents. For regular universities and research institutes in India, in addition to train talents for civilian purpose, they also cultivate military talents. The Indian Air Force not only recruits outstanding graduates directly from civilian universities, but also sends military personnel to study in civilian colleges or scientific research institutes for further training or education.

In addition, the Indian Air Force also sends outstanding commanding officers to study in the U.S., the U.K., Russia, Canada and other countries to further their studies or learn more advanced technologies or training methods.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 00:13 
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thanks vikram.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 01:22 
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i finally saw the videos

my impressions:

the speaker is playing to the gallery but not so much. his words deserve to be taken seriously

1. he says he is referring to all non f-22 as "legacy fighters".he says the su-30 mki has a better radar and weaponry than legacy f-15s and f-16s.
he says "thats very impressive", and he is dead serious. (body language)

he also says that thanks to jamming the su-30 mki will "get to the merge".

talking about mki squadron: he says that indias su-30 mki squadron has rookie pilots + experienced ones who come from bison squadrons

2. he is very concerned about the bison doing the same thing. thanks to small rcs protected by jammer it is "invisible" to legacy fighters. when we consider fact that f-16 apg68v9 has range of some 100 km vs 5 sqmtr and a mig 21 between 2-3 which can be masked partly by jamming, we can understand his concern. what it means is that bison gets close enough to lock on and launch active missiles. later on he says, this bison is very maneuverable. it has hobs archers, and an active radar missile and a powerful jammer.

if this is not a case for lca then i dont know what is.

3. about now "infamous" drill brains out statement. his words- "these guys are new to the airplanes and this wont last. they will go back, and this wont be a matter anymore." and then he talks about it being a problem because the mki can jam incoming missiles, weaponry wont be so effective and the mki gets to the merge. in his words, this tactic succeeded only because of the training these guys got versus raptors where this worked. but it is fleeting and as the indians build up hours on the mkis it wont last.

4. you can make out the importance given to jamming of both mki and generally about reducing weapons effectiveness in the speech. he praises the mki repeatedly saying on the lines of - "you may think it is not a problem (becasue of gun killabove), but when these guys get used to it, it will be.." making a case for raptor

5.he clearly says mki has a russian datalink but it cant work with NATO so the indains were disappointed coz they wanted to integrate closely with the engagement team. and the indians would be hollering out, whos ahead at my nose from 22nm and by the team awacs replies, "its fox" (opponent has fired).
body language throughout this - no disrespect, its just way he talks. audience understands and laughs understandingly when he says "indians decided better you die than me" when in second week indians started blasting away.
about fragging he says it was a problem because it reduced blue team strength and indians took it very seriously and worked on it. and so that is one issue that needs to be sorted out before indians can be part of a coalition effort (russian datalinks and US datalink)

presenter stops in between and says "let me say the indians were very professional" and talks of how the indians did not even have one issue about the flying area, shakes his head seriously and says that was incredible."

again, comments about IAF professionalism

comments about su-30 seniour pilots "chest thumping", in context it seems clearer..when these guys came to india, they lost. and nobody likes losing and especially f-15 pilots, so its ok.

BOTTOMLine: at times presenter may appear condescending but its more of an general unawareness about IAF but he is still honest and does not intentionally intend to put down the IAF
he praises 3-4 times at different times about the professionalims of IAF in front of a home audience where he has no reason to pull his punches (see comments about french for example), so IAF has established its reputation.

i think it is a reasonable video, and we should not hold any grudge/anger againts the presenter. he is a decent chap who just spoke his mind.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 01:24 
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Does anyone have the presentation talking of chinese fighters and J-10 and whatever

lets review that as well

thanks


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 02:06 
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I also found the youtube video this guy talks about in the part 1 where the F22 demonstration and the Su30 demonstration is shown side by side.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_za3KfMFKLk



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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 03:13 
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Vikram_S wrote:
Does anyone have the presentation talking of chinese fighters and J-10 and whatever

lets review that as well

thanks


I saw that video..well about 30% of it, before SHQ threatened to use Brahmos..he talked about J-10, it's origin and how Israelis helped china, then Su-27 and J-11 (Su-30 MKK). Taled about how Su-30 MKK is different from Su-27, he compared them to difference b/w different blocks of F-16. Then he started to talk about missiles, and fate intervened..

ANyone has the userid of this guy?

Otherwise I will try to go through browing history of my laptop and find that video (if it is still there)..


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 05:23 
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Vikram_S wrote:
maitya wrote:
IIRC, the datalink that MKIs sport has very low bitrate (compared to MIDS etc.) and can only go in for a 4 way cluster max (i.e. max 4 MKIs can share data amongst themselves). Many moons back I'd posted some info on JTIDS and MKI datarate (open-source info that is), can't find those in the archives any more.


there is nothing wrong with bitrate. please look up earlier nato datalink and function. they were slowed than mki and could share as much information. barely fraction of mids/link-16 bandwidth information is used. datalink with high rate, large b.w is more useful for a2g function which is good for the transmission of video pictures and imagery

also maximum 16 mkis (almst the entire squadron) can oprate in formation with datalink

The TKS-2-27 datalink system of the Su-30MKI is reported to have around 4.6kbps speed providing around 10sec refresh rate for 16 aircrafts max (6.5sec for 4 a/c, 2 sec for 2 a/c) to share information.

This compared to the 107kbps of the Link-16 MIDS LVT systems available ...
Source:Selex - MIDS LVT


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 06:08 
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gogna wrote:
I also found the youtube video this guy talks about in the part 1 where the F22 demonstration and the Su30 demonstration is shown side by side.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_za3KfMFKLk



An impressive video - but I recall an F 35 video that was superative compared to both of these.

Anyone notice, in the above video, between 20 and 23 secs the F 22 has fire coming from its ass - appears that the afterburners are on. Strange innit?


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 07:57 
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Heavy drag on the frame in that maneuver needs more thrust.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008 22:56 
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maitya wrote:
The TKS-2-27 datalink system of the Su-30MKI is reported to have around 4.6kbps speed providing around 10sec refresh rate for 16 aircrafts max (6.5sec for 4 a/c, 2 sec for 2 a/c) to share information.

This compared to the 107kbps of the Link-16 MIDS LVT systems available ...
Source:Selex - MIDS LVT


maitya
my points were that a) if need arises flanker can datalink all 16 a/c and b) the flanker original datarate of kdiae datalink (su-27 was spectra reference, su-27 flanker y gordon: dont know why tks-2-7 is used only carlo kopp made it famous) made by polyot is good enuff for sharing target information

you can validate this by compare to NATO datalink - i will search where i have this and post if your really interesdted in it

also remember this information of kbps is in all reason (if we see how russian manufacturer state information) in ECCM mode actual MIDS datalink datarate will also drop then

MIDS Lvt system datalink is "in betyween", it offers more b/w than necessary for sharing information between a/c for a2a, and it doesnt offer enuff bandwidth for proper A2G work

this is why US is now exploring high bandwidth datalink by making antenna a directional datalink system (AESA radar)

also it will be rare when su-30 mki is doing data refresh for situational awarness that is job of phalcon
what mki will do is share targettting information and then individual mki will prosecute target asap in that case there is little need for more than 2-3 update


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 01:05 
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Thanks Vikram

The chinese forces indeed are more dangerous as they are an immensely practical people.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 02:32 
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Tanay wrote:
Jagan wrote:
Tanay, cmon, what are we waiting for, please please please upload on rapidshare asap.

Neeraj, thanks for those additional numbers on the turn rates, will update the transcript with yournumbers soon.

regards

Jagan



Sorry, for the delay people. I had issues with my laptop.

Part 1 - http://www.MegaShare.com/518704
Part 2 - http://www.MegaShare.com/518707


Thank you so much dude. appreciated.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 02:54 
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Very good and sensible move by rafale team.

also, mig-35 should not be written off. they are trying to achieve ~200 km range (5 sq mtr rcs) from small sized Zhuk AE radar. if they achieve it, and reduce RCS of mig-35, offer cheap TOT they might game the l1 tender.

in german air show, they also offered new RVVae SD and MD missiles wth mig-35


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 02:55 
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MukulMohanty wrote:
A very condascending video.

Sent it to people within the AF to see what they think of this.



Any update on this? I would love to know what the AF thinks about this.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 03:37 
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Quote:
PART 1

Discussion on the Su-30MKI. These were version five airplanes, they had vectored thrust, canards, all the advanced weapons the Russians build, including the AMRAAMSKI, and there (Archer?) there IR missile, which has a 30 mile range on it. Nothing classified, all can be found in Janes... etc...

The Sukhoi engines (i believe he called them Tumansky? ) are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take of, if you have one person who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft... yeah.... right, they can go find some other place to fly. So we trained with them, worked with them, and got them to shorten that down to 45 seconds, still not acceptable. But what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait orbit ahead and the rest would join up. They were very concerned about fod and how Russian engines are not nearly as reliable as Americans. One of the things the Indians were very disapointed in, if an engine breaks down, they make them send the engine back to Russia, then you'll send you back a new one.

There's a great video on youtube, where somebody shows the F-22 flying its demo, and the Su-30MKI, side by side, and he does the exact same domonstration, as the F-22. And an airshow, then can do the same demonstration. The reality is, that's about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with out airplanes, the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are. And that's pretty impressive, it has better radar, more thrust, vectored thrust, longer ranged weapons, so it's pretty impressive. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better). OK, next.

Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. Ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment so they really hadn't had a lot of time flying. Anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we (IAF) shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.

Now here at Mountain Home, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s.. Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters (F-15 and F-16) and engage in aircombat. Remember back in 4477th... Mig-21 had ability to get into the fight, 110 knots, 60 degrees nose high, 10,000 feet to 20,000 feet, very maneuverable airplane, but it didn't have any good weapons. Now it has high off bore sight, helmet, jammer, good radar, and the archer, so that's the plane the SU-30 experianced pilots came out of.

So we get them to Mountain Home... amazingly, we dominated. Not with a clean F-15, we dominated with an F-15 in wartime configuration, I mean, 4 missile onboard, wingtanks, and they're sitting there in there Su-30s with ACMI pods. Floored to the point after the first 3 days, they didn't want any more 1 vs 1 stuff. Funny 'cause in India, they only wanted 1 vs 1 - cause they were winning.

The Sukhoi has TVC in a V (OFF AXIS 2D TVC... SEMI 3D TVC) . The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft the direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. It's a biiig airplane. A huge airplane. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles.

What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22... From our experience, that's the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. You would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 28 deg per second at 20,000 feet while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 21 and a sustained rate of 15-16. So you are pulling and hoping. Post stall, maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this, most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

The Su-30? No problem. Big aircraft. Big cross section. Jamming to get to the merge, so you have to fight close... he has 22 - 23 degrees per second sustained turn rate. We've been fighting the Raptor, so we've been going oh dude, this is easy. So as we're fighting him, all of a sudden you'd see the ass end kick down, going post stall - but now he starts falling from the sky. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.
The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1

(laughs!)

Part 2

While on paper, he has vectored thrust, all these great weapons and everything, he looks the same as a Raptor, he's no where near the same. So that was a really good thing for us to find out, that we really didn't know until this last excercise. Now, what I'm scared of, is congress is going to hear that and go 'great we don't need to buy any more airplanes... no no no, we used to be way ahead of them, now they're right up close to us and just a little bit higher. I say that they're just alittle bit better than us, is because when there pilots learn how to fly, they'll be abled to beat the F-16 and F-15, on a regular basis. Right now, they use TVC and just go into post stall.... so it's only a matter of time before they learn.

The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 5, one of there older airplanes, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced jet. 90% of the time, they followed the Indians in, but they never really came into the merge. Like in Iraq and Afghanastan, they would do local flights and say we participated, but what they were really doing is just sniffing electronically and finding out how our radars work. And that's really all they did out here.

One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. During their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. We had other expectations but they were quite good. And they're learning... The IAF was also very serious about another thing.

They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs. Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously. They did not have combat I.D capability.

The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all like on the F-22. Had Isreali targetting and jamming pods on them. Incredible airplanes. Very professional also. But they had less than 50 hours on it and none on the airplane, they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.

So while Nellis is about training with people who we will go to war with, Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis, so they could mix right in and be a part of the coalition, and they learned, in a big way, that, that, wouldn't happen.

Questions...

Was the AESA radar in the Indian...? Well the Indian is PESA which is not active but passive, as apposed to AESA. Huge diferance, the AESA pings more, and sees more, and is more accurate, than just a passively scanned radar. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems descriminating, and finding the right guy.

Some guy said F-15 was last dogfighting airplane, he discounted the fact the F-22 was really good...? I think the Raptor is the next great dogfighter we have. Reason is, electronic jamming, and not only electronic jamming, but we don't carry enough missiles. We're going to have to go in with guns. Gonna happen and thank god the Raptor still has a gun on it. It's fast, maneuverable, .... and the Block 50 (and 52 EHRM P&W FTW), is pretty good also, so these aircraft, the F-15, Block 50 F-16, and the Raptor, are still very capable aircraft, because when the Bison that gets in unseen with the small RCS and jammer.... going to need maneuverability.

What about the F-35? Let's save that for another discussion. We do too much work on it at this moment, but we'll save that for another time.


I hope our Su30 pilots meet this guy next time and just calmly ask him, any more new ideas to DRILL our brains out please feel free to share with us.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 04:40 
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HariC wrote:
Any update on this? I would love to know what the AF thinks about this.


People who do this sort of stuff for a living know about it. They are far better qualified than we are to judge the overall impact of the video.....I don't think they will share their opinions with us.....publicly :twisted:

Our job on the internet forum is the call out the speaker on his terminological inexactitude.

Children:
TKS2-27 is the name of the Communication Suite which consists of a "digital computer", UHF, VHF and air2air & air2ground data link. The air2ground (GCI) is a.k.a the Spektre. I am not sure how you assume that the MKI is carrying this vintage technology. I would suggest that you look at other sources of such gear which would be compatible with Phalcon and probably as good as what others have.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 05:10 
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Vikram_S wrote:
maitya wrote:
The TKS-2-27 datalink system of the Su-30MKI is reported to have around 4.6kbps speed providing around 10sec refresh rate for 16 aircrafts max (6.5sec for 4 a/c, 2 sec for 2 a/c) to share information.

This compared to the 107kbps of the Link-16 MIDS LVT systems available ...
Source:Selex - MIDS LVT


maitya
my points were that a) if need arises flanker can datalink all 16 a/c and b) the flanker original datarate of kdiae datalink (su-27 was spectra reference, su-27 flanker y gordon: dont know why tks-2-7 is used only carlo kopp made it famous) made by polyot is good enuff for sharing target information

you can validate this by compare to NATO datalink - i will search where i have this and post if your really interesdted in it

The info I posted above is K-DlAE/TKS-2-27 system - and IIRC, K-DlUE from Polyot is the improved export version of the K-DlAE/TKS-2-27. So the bit-rate etc may be better than those quoted above.

My point is 10sec refresh rate for 16 aircrafts is low looked compared to:
a) The Class-2 system has 115kbps allowing commicating between 20 subgroups.
b) In contrast the 3rd gen MIDS systems were smaller and lighter with similar banwidth.
c) The next gen IDS-2000 rumoured to have 238kbps allowing 127 group communications.

Pls note that the I'm not sure how much of the bandwidth is required to have decent bi-directional net established among say 16 aircraft group with a decent refresh rate. But pls do post comparative info - it'd be a good datapoint.

Betw here's one more Joint Tactical Information Distribution System

Quote:
also remember this information of kbps is in all reason (if we see how russian manufacturer state information) in ECCM mode actual MIDS datalink datarate will also drop then

Very true


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 05:48 
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Finally saw the video.

I think the drill comment will have to be taken in context.

The Flankers were flying against Eagles who had trained with the Raptors and knew the one weakness in TV based maneuvering they could attack. The IAF pilots were perhaps not ready for the Eagle drivers reacting that way. The presenter acknowledged that and said that they will get better as they learn to fly the plane better with more experience. Plus these are fights were doing merging so these were WVR dogfights. The Eagles are fine planes and if the pilots know how to exploit the Flankers weakness, they will. And it is great for the IAF to discover weakness in tactics by flying against pilots who can exploit them. They are not going all over the world to impress the gallery.

The Bison comments were revealing. He seemed to have a surprising high regard to them, in fact stressing that even the Raptor can not avoid a gun fight because of planes like the Bison which can hide behind the jammers.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 06:02 
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Finally after trawling through my laptop's browser history pages, I could find the username of the guy who posted the video. Unfortunately his account has been closed..I am now trawling through the web..most of the sites provide link to youtube.. :-? any ideas?

Here is a link to a webpage with the list of videos posted by him...he had briefings on Predators/Reapors too... :(( :(( :((

link


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 06:09 
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I wonder why the IAF did not know about the 'stall' weakness. We have had the MKI for some time now and it must have done hundreds of hours in air combat training against Mirages/21s/27s. The weakness should have been picked up earlier. Is it because the rookies didn't get a chance to learn that before Red Flag? And if it was happening in 1x1 at Red Flag; then why did the IAF persist in doing the 'stall' for 3 days before giving up on 1x1 (assuming the USAF pilot is telling the truth)? Why didn't they change tactics after 1 or 2 losses? Too many questions which may not be answered.

Also - I had no idea that the jammers were so effective as to get our 21s within WVR range. That is very, very interesting.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 06:18 
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Babui wrote:
I wonder why the IAF did not know about the 'stall' weakness. We have had the MKI for some time now and it must have done hundreds of hours in air combat training against Mirages/21s/27s. The weakness should have been picked up earlier. Is it because the rookies didn't get a chance to learn that before Red Flag? And if it was happening in 1x1 at Red Flag; then why did the IAF persist in doing the 'stall' for 3 days before giving up on 1x1 (assuming the USAF pilot is telling the truth)? Why didn't they change tactics after 1 or 2 losses? Too many questions which may not be answered.

Also - I had no idea that the jammers were so effective as to get our 21s within WVR range. That is very, very interesting.


1 vs 1 didn't happen in Nellis, but in Mountain home AFB.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 06:27 
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Ok its coming out now, AviationWeek below lets see if our guys pick it up.

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action
Nov 5, 2008
David A. Fulghum and Graham Warwick
Quote:
Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.

That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com.

The French pilots flying the new Dassault Rafale appeared to be there to collect electronic intelligence on the Indian aircraft, contends the USAF pilot, who wears an Air Force Weapons School graduate patch.

The French were originally going to bring the older Mirage 2000-5 until they discovered the Indians were bringing their new Su-30MKIs, the pilot says. They then switched and brought their Rafales with more sophisticated electronic surveillance equipment.

Once at Red Flag, "90 percent of the time they followed the Indians so when they took a shot or got shot" they would take a quick shot of their own and then leave," he said. "They never came to any merges," which starts the dogfighting portion of any air-to-air combat. He asserts that French pilots followed the same procedure during Desert Storm and Peace Keeping exercises. When U.S. aircrews were flying operations, the French would fly local sorties while "sucking up all the trons" to see how U.S. electronics, like radars, worked, according to the pilot.

He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they "killed a lot of friendlies" because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn't allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.

But the U.S. apparently isn't ignorant of the Su-30MKI's radar either.

The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, "it paints less, sees less" and is not as discriminating.

He praised the F-22 as the next great dogfighter. But he faulted the fact that it carries too few missiles and contends that the on-board cannon could be a life-saver, particularly against aircraft like the MiG-21 Bison flown by the Indians. It has a small radar cross section, as well as an Israeli-made F-16 radar and jammer. The latter makes them "almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars" until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.

Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine's vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches.

For commentary on this item and embedded video at our Ares blog, click here.

Photo of Indian Su-30MKI: Sagar Pathak


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 07:20 
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Babui wrote:
I wonder why the IAF did not know about the 'stall' weakness. We have had the MKI for some time now and it must have done hundreds of hours in air combat training against Mirages/21s/27s. The weakness should have been picked up earlier. Is it because the rookies didn't get a chance to learn that before Red Flag? And if it was happening in 1x1 at Red Flag; then why did the IAF persist in doing the 'stall' for 3 days before giving up on 1x1 (assuming the USAF pilot is telling the truth)? Why didn't they change tactics after 1 or 2 losses? Too many questions which may not be answered.


Read that rookie, George J's post in the previous page on what *might* be the purpose of this. Everybody on air at that time was validating something or the other against each other, including the Indians and French. Once they learned something interesting (good or bad) about a tactic's different aspects, IAF *might* have lost interest in wasting time in that area and decided to move on, for every second of Red Flag is supremely valuable to IAF men.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 08:36 
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This is EXACTLY what I was afraid off. Now that AWST has printed it its now official the MKI sux coz some jock who flew against it and yet really does not know what he is talking about has said so and there is a video of it. Remember this guys was/is pretty much talking through his @55 and yet has a lot more credibility.

The only thing it proves is that when the MKI operating its radar strictly in training mode, with no CCM-HMS (R-73-Sura) might get shot down in 1 on 1 WVR combat when faced against an F-15. Is that a realistic expectation? If yes then I got a bridge to sell you.

It also proves that when the MKI operating its radar strictly in training mode, with incompatible datalinks and relying solely on RT with incompatible AEW platform, simulating R-27s (not R-77) might shoot down their own . Is that a realistic expectation? If yes then I got a dam to sell you too.

The problem now is that if the IAF calls him out (he was hoping this was a private audience of Daedalians who really don't care if he says Tumansky or Tolstoy as long as he plays to the gallery which he did) it might create ill will and that might be taken as an excuse not to invite them back to Nellis (remember this is as close to war it gets..... coz you get to play war with folks who are ALWAYS at war). This is where the Senguptas and Pandits can redeem themselves. I will even provide the text for them to copy/paste if they so desire. For credibility they just need to add what they ALWAYS do "Unknown IAF officials said............."


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 09:26 
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I only wish that IAF keeps going back to red flag. Its expensive, but we can afford it now. And drill their brains out for one.
Please please IAF go there with COMPATIBLE EQUIPMENT, learn the US way of large force attack with multiple platforms and AWACS backup, and use it.
Problem is that complete interaction is not possible there because our platforms have secrets we have to protect.
It should come in handy to swat Pakistani and Chinese airforces if the need arises.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 09:29 
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Quote:
PART 1
...One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. During their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible...

Can someone explain what is meant by "mistakes -/ errors about the flying area " ? What are the kind of errors that are generally made about the flying area ?

Quote:
...So while Nellis is about training with people who we will go to war with, Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis, so they could mix right in and be a part of the coalition, and they learned, in a big way, that, that, wouldn't happen ....

read this a few times, but I guess I am lost on this one...What at did indians learn - that indians cant be part of coalition ?


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 10:40 
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AdityaM wrote:
Quote:
...So while Nellis is about training with people who we will go to war with, Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis, so they could mix right in and be a part of the coalition, and they learned, in a big way, that, that, wouldn't happen ....

read this a few times, but I guess I am lost on this one...What at did indians learn - that indians cant be part of coalition ?


What he meant that coailation is there to fight wars together but it is highly unlikely that India will fight a war alongwith US and allies (e.g. Pakistan) because of regional conflicts. This was the reason given by that chap. I guess in addition to that he meant to show that boastful Indians don't deserve to be a part of coalition (Cope India grudges or American arrogance).

Added Later : Count in the equipment incompatibility as well.

Cheers...


Last edited by vikrant on 06 Nov 2008 11:57, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 10:54 
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AdityaM wrote:
Quote:
PART 1
...One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. During their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible...

Can someone explain what is meant by "mistakes -/ errors about the flying area " ? What are the kind of errors that are generally made about the flying area ?


See the movie TOP GUN again and pay attention


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 14:57 
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"yee harh! Jester's dead!!!"

"dammit mav' you went below the hard deck!!"

"i feel the need, the need for speed!!" :)

(the answer's in there somewhere for those who don't want to watch the movie)


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 15:30 
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USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08
By Stephen Trimble. Flightglobal.com
Quote:
An unnamed US Air Force officer, who is obviously a Nellis F-15 pilot, lectures an audience with incredible details about the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag 2008.

Both videos were posted yesterday on YouTube by an anonymous contributor, who identifies himself only as an Australian (God bless 'em!).

If you have any interest in tactical aircraft at all, you must watch these two videos. Learn details about the Cope India fiasco, problems with Russian fighter jet engines, how the F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI's vectored thrust, and why the Indians apparently won't be asking for more 1 v 1 dogfights with the USAF.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 15:32 
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Correct Acharya-ji,
About TOP GUN.
This I have noticed about 10 years back, correct me if I am wrong here.

The USS Enterprise is shown in the Indian Ocean when it is attacked by "Russian Mig-17s"

Now:
1. Where would russian aircraft come from in the middle of the Indian Ocean? India of course.
2. There is NO Mig -17.

Bottom line. These are old prejudices which are systemically ingrained in the US Military. The Russians (and therefore the Indians and the chinese and all sundry supposedly in the erstwhile Soviet camp) had wonderful military equipment, even fearsome - but we all know American pilots with their dedication and ingenuity always win.

And ALL soviet / russian origin fighters have had Tumansky engines since "Iron Eagle-2".


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 15:59 
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There is so a Mig-17....

It seems you haven't read about the Vietnam War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mig-17


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 16:02 
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Podcast worth listening to.Some info on the audience in the talk, Compares F22 to Su30, French spying role,Su30 engine problems,Mig21 bision capabilities.Importance of the Red Flag exercise.

Steve Trimble, America's Managing Editor for Flight(ex Jane's) shares his thoughts on the two videos about Red Flag leaked on youtube.

Red Flag and SU-30MKI: the Podcast
By Stephen Trimble on November 6, 2008 2:53 AM

http://iagblog.podomatic.com/entry/2008 ... 1_04-08_00


Last edited by gogna on 06 Nov 2008 16:13, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 16:10 
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p_saggu wrote:
Correct Acharya-ji,
About TOP GUN.
This I have noticed about 10 years back, correct me if I am wrong here.

The USS Enterprise is shown in the Indian Ocean when it is attacked by "Russian Mig-17s"

Now:
1. Where would russian aircraft come from in the middle of the Indian Ocean? India of course.
2. There is NO Mig -17.

Bottom line. These are old prejudices which are systemically ingrained in the US Military. The Russians (and therefore the Indians and the chinese and all sundry supposedly in the erstwhile Soviet camp) had wonderful military equipment, even fearsome - but we all know American pilots with their dedication and ingenuity always win.

And ALL soviet / russian origin fighters have had Tumansky engines since "Iron Eagle-2".


Sorry to be anal my friend, but in Top Gun its F-5 Tigers are potrayed as Mig 28s, and thats not the end of it in the movie they are talked about as being able to carry the Excocet missile that they can launch 100 miles out :rotfl:

Although Top Gun's got some Very inaccurate references it will still warm any aviation enthusiast's heart.


Last edited by andy B on 06 Nov 2008 16:15, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 16:14 
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MIG-28

My mistake


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2008 16:16 
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Is it possible to down load the podcast?


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