Terror Attacks on Mumbai-II

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 29 Nov 2008 06:15

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

Pak's U-turn; to send representative, not ISI chief
Press Trust of India
Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:29 AM (Islamabad)
Pakistan has done an about turn on sending the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) chief to India in connection with the probe into the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, saying a representative of the spy agency would be sent instead of him.

The decision was made at a late night meeting on Friday between President Asif Ali Zardari and General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the chief of the powerful army. Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani also joined the meeting, which was held at the presidency and continued past 1.30 am local time.

"A representative of the ISI will visit India, instead of its Director General Lt Gen Shuja Pasha, to help in investigating the Mumbai terrorism incident," a spokesman for the Prime Minister's House said in Islamabad

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:16

by Vijay
They dragged the officers out of the Qualis and drove away the qualis with the other bodies in the back. These are the mofos who got killed at the police barricades

I thought that the alive arrested PIGs are the one's that were stopped at police Barricades at Girgaum? These same two PIGs that have their pictures plastered all over the world.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2008 06:17

joshvajohn wrote:Ramana I have been noticing your comments. You seem to take things very personal. You just argue against my points. Highlight what are the issues with my points rather than naming me again. I do not know why other moderators are not noticing these things and if there is not freedom of expression here why it is run in the name of my country?

If forum moderators themselves have particular problem someone else should intervene and give some guidance. Otherwise no point is allowed to make here.

I see that you dont get it. For your info this is my first and only warning to you. I never even saw your posts before this. You can try to figure out why you are bannedw hile cooling your heels. And others can join you too if they persist in your vein.

Ask for help about lashkar. My feet.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 29 Nov 2008 06:17

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... page-1.cms

PM's terror stand comes back to haunt him
29 Nov 2008, 0308 hrs IST, TNN

NEW DELHI: Of all his formulations, the one that has returned most often to haunt Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is the assertion that Pakistan too, like India, was a victim of terrorism. The macabre irony embedded in the peculiar hypenation plays itself out in a ghastly re-run with every terror strike.

The PM's remark, made before a meeting with Pakistan's former dictator Pervez Musharraf in September 2006, indicated a singular failure to appreciate the nature of the terror threat and Islamabad's role in ensuring India remains in a near-permanent state of fearful expectation. In a stroke, the wolf had been turned into a lamb.

Not only do wolves usually don't really change colours, what was remarkable about Singh's statement was it came barely two months after the 11/7 Mumbai train bombings where the government saw a Pakistani hand. Yet, a yo-yo response — just a month earlier he said the peace process with Pakistan was under threat — has marked the PM's approach to terror.

His tough-sounding words after the massive November 26 attack on Mumbai — that he would "take up" with neighbours the use of their territory for launching strikes against India and that "individuals and organisations" behind the outrage would be hunted down — sound like a tinny, worn out record. Even the PM's aides might find the cowboy act a little hard to swallow.

Politics can be an unforgiving line of work but the PM has chosen to ignore the perils of not learning from mistakes. Soon after serials blasts in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi shook the country, Singh told a governors conference that he was not opposed to tightening anti-terror laws.

The point really is whether the government is flexible to the point of bending before every storm. Soon, after Congress's political calculations ruled out special anti-terror laws, the PM developed an amnesia that afflicts politicians. Until the fidayeen struck Mumbai. "Existing laws will be tightened to ensure there are no loopholes for terrorists to escape," the PM intoned on Thursday. Disbelief wrestled with incredulity.

No one really believes any laws will be added or changed. The promise of a federal investigative agency has been part of a file in PMO for many months now.

After having bought into the political argument that anti-terror laws "target" minorities, Congress has found it difficult to retrace its steps. Yet, with each succeeding terrorist atrocity, the pressure to be seen to be doing something has increased. But the PM has sought to make concessions that Congress is not prepared to underwrite.

Apart from the India-US nuclear deal, the PM has tended to see peace with Pakistan as part of his legacy. But even as he built useful CBMs with Musharraf, the bid to de-militarise Siachen shocked the armed forces which felt the plan was ill considered. Today, the "mountain of peace" line seems more tacky than it ever did.

Jake · Post by **Jake** » 29 Nov 2008 06:17

shiv wrote:
Jake wrote:
Very true. I am confused with the on again off again balaclavas with the NSG/Marcos. They should have a consistent policy on public appearance and interaction, ie; a single spokesperson. Another thing that was so evident; Crowd control was non-existent. There should have been only police near the sites. And a definite tight (choke) lease on the paparazzi !
Have a heart boss. This man was probably mobbed by a ten thousand crowd as we saw on TV around Nariman house last night.

As a private citizen, by all means, but as a member of an elite commando unit, I would fear for his safety and for other members of the forces. Plus its a matter of being professional. Oh well, as long as it all turns out for the better.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 29 Nov 2008 06:18

Arrested terrorist says gang hoped to get away

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... urpg-2.cms

29 Nov 2008, 0515 hrs IST, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Single page view Text:
NEW DELHI: The gang of terrorists who wreaked mayhem in Mumbai for three days were made to believe by their Lashkar bosses that they were not
being sent on a suicide mission and that they would be coming back alive.

In a sensational disclosure made by Ajmal, the jihadi nabbed alive by Mumbai cops, the group had planned to sail out on Thursday. Their recruiters had even charted out the return route for them and stored it on the GPS device which they had used to navigate their way to the Mumbai shoreline.

This suggests that the terrorists were willing to undertake a mission which they knew would be very risky, but not necessarily suicidal.

Sources said that the bait of safe return must have been used by the recruiters to convince the wavering among the group to join the audacious plot against Mumbai.

Ajmal made another important disclosure: that all terrorists were trained in marine warfare along with the special course Daura-e-Shifa conducted by the Lashkar-e-Taiba in what at once transforms the nature of the planning from a routine terror strike and into a specialized raid by commandos.

Battle-hardened ATS officials are surprised by the details of the training the terrorists were put through before being despatched for the macabre mission. This was very different from a terrorist attack, and amounted to an offensive from the seam, said a source.

Ajmal has revealed the name of his fellow jihadis all Pakistani citizens as Abu Ali, Fahad, Omar, Shoaib, Umer, Abu Akasha, Ismail, Abdul Rahman (Bara) and Abdul Rahman (Chhota).

The account of Ajmal also strengthens the doubt of the complicity of powerful elements in the Pakistani establishment. According to him, the group set off on November 21 from an isolated creek near Karachi without the deadly cargo of arms and ammunition they were to use against the innocents in Mumbai. The group received arms and ammunition on board a large Pakistani vessel which picked them up the following day. The vessel, whose ownership is now the subject of an international probe, had four Pakistanis apart from the crew.

A day later, they came across an Indian-owned trawler, Kuber, which was promptly commandeered on the seas. Four of the fishermen who were on the trawler were killed, but its skipper, or tandel in fishermen lingo, Amarjit Singh, was forced to proceed towards India. Amarjit was killed the next day, and Ismail the terrorist who was killed at Girgaum Chowpaty took the wheel.

A trained sailor, Ismail used the GPS to reach Mumbai coast on November 26. The group, however, slowed down its advance as they had reached during the day time while the landing was planned after dusk. The group shifted to inflatable boats, before disembarking at Badhwar Park in Cuffe Parade.

From there, they mandated to kill indiscriminately, particularly white foreign tourists, and spare Muslims split up into five batches. Two of them Ismail and Ajmal took a taxi to Victoria Terminus. Three other batches of two each headed for Oberoi Hotel, Cafe Leopold and Nariman House. The remaining four went to Taj Hotel.

He may have been motivated enough to kill innocents indiscriminately. In police custody, Ajmal Amir Kasab, the terrorist who was caught alive by
the Mumbai police at Girgaum Chowpatty, has been forthcoming with details about the attack on Mumbai and his accomplices, all suspected Lashkar operatives from Pakistan.

Kasab, who sustained minor injuries in the police firing that killed his partner Abu Ismail (25) on Wednesday night, was produced before the Esplanade Metropolitan Magistrate on Friday. The magistrate remanded him to police custody till December 8. Incidentally, Kasab and Ismail were the two who gunned down ATS chief Hemant Karkare, additional CP Ashok Kamthe and encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar.

Kasab told the police that he and 9 others got off a vessel about 10 nautical miles from Mumbai and shifted to two boats hijacked from fishermen.

One source in ATS familiar with the details of the interrogation quoted him saying that in all 16 fidayeens came to Mumbai on Wednesday. A native of Faridkot in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK), 21-year-old Kasab told police they had done a reccee of Mumbai few months ago. He said he had come along with eight of the operatives to Mumbai as students and lived in a rented room at Colaba market, a stone's throw away from Nariman House.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Nov 2008 06:19

as per latest TV reports.

- dozens of NSG inside the Taj throughout the night
- firing going on at 6 places, on 1st and ground floor
- Sikh LI have taken up exterior cordon replacing the helmeted troops earlier
- terrorists still firing and hurling grenades
- "possibility" of more hidden guests still hiding somewhere

so it appears atleast 5-6 of them lay quietly as a stay-behind force and
emerged yesterday evening to carry on the fight, once the first lot met their
end.

I would think reason they have not flooded the building with regular army
and flushed out the rats is to try and wound a few of them and take alive.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:20

"A representative of the ISI will visit India, instead of its Director General Lt Gen Shuja Pasha, to help in investigating the Mumbai terrorism incident," a spokesman for the Prime Minister's House said in Islamabad

If India agrees to this then we are making the same mistake as USA. They(ISI) will learn from this operation and use for the next operation.

ISI needs to be stopped and only way to stop them is to stop the local support in India.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 29 Nov 2008 06:20

More Arnab Goswami and Sohail Seth

Part-IV
Part-V

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 29 Nov 2008 06:21

http://www.dailypioneer.com/137552/Indi ... yland.html
India is jihad’s Disneyland

Ashok Malik

In the days after 9/11, an American security specialist, briefing journalists in Washington, DC, confessed his biggest fear was not that Al Qaeda would target another high-profile, high-value target — say, the Empire State Building or the State Department. “Imagine,” he said, “if they went and fired randomly in suburban malls in five small cities in the midwest, in the heart of America, ordinary locations with ordinary people. It would make Americans feel extremely unsafe, right in their neighbourhoods.”

Thankfully, America has escaped further attack since that tumultuous Tuesday in September 2001. Yet, in 2008, the Washington security wonk’s nightmare scenario has become all too real for India. From Jaipur to Ahmedabad, Delhi to Guwahati, terrorists have bombed markets, public parks, even hospitals. The victims have been, broadly, working class and middle class folk.

Now, by invading the Taj Mahal Palace and the Oberoi-Trident hotels, the terrorists have established that there is no class discrimination to their evil. India’s rich and famous, its show-biz stars and its business elite have been told, starkly, they are not insulated.

There was a time when India was a laboratory of political and economic ideas — from planning to free enterprise, socialism to liberal democracy. Today, it has become a playground for a wide variety of Islamist terror tactics and methodologies. It is jihad’s Disneyland.

Like in December 2001, there is a constant threat to politically super-important targets such as Parliament. Soft targets such as parking lots and ordinary bazaars — where low-end, easy-to-assemble bombs are hidden in garbage bins or occasionally lobbed from speeding motorcycles — are a dime-a-dozen.

About the only terror practitioner India lacked was the suicide bomber — there have been no suicide bombings outside Jammu & Kashmir, an indication of the perverse hierarchy domestic jihad still has to climb. Yet, Mumbai has offered an alternative — the suicide gun-fighter.

In a sense, Mumbai’s chilling experience this week was a throwback to an earlier age of terrorism, before suicide bombers became, callous as this may sound, common. In the 1970s and 1980s, Palestinian terrorists — and fellow travellers like Carlos, the Jackal — seized ships and buildings, held people hostage and negotiated release of imprisoned comrades as well as a getaway plane for themselves.

Later, the suicide bomb — or even the left-behind bomb, detonated using a mobile phone in some cases — was found to be more effective in that it killed more people. Yet, it was not the subject of drama. It was done in an instant; the shrieks and the bodies remained but the horror was not stretched out live over hours, right before the cameras and television audiences.

Islamist groups are extremely conscious that, unwittingly or occasionally otherwise, the media is a force multiplier. On the morning of September 11, 2001, the second plane that hit the World Trade Center in New York did so at a time when it knew the entire planet’s eyes and news networks were watching. The first plane had already flown into the Twin Towers — leaving people wondering if it was sabotage or a bizarre accident. The second plane removed all doubts — it was a made-for-television terror strike.

The Mumbai massacre — or massacres — had similar inspirations. The masterminds married the superficial tactics of the 1970s Palestinian hostage crises to the crazed religious motivations of more recent suicide bombers. This was jihad as urban guerrilla warfare. Far from shock-and-awe, spectacular but time-determined terror attacks, it had its origins in conventional military doctrines.

For example, when President George W Bush prepared to attack Iraq in 2003, Saddam Hussein knew his troops would not be able to fight off the United States Army and stop its inevitable march to the capital. However, what Saddam Hussein did promise the Americans was a battle to the death in Baghdad — street-to-street, house-to-house fighting, with sniper fire, grenades thrown from windows and terraces.

Eventually, Saddam Hussein did not deliver on his threat. Yet, his promised asymmetrical war plan now seems to have been adopted by Islamist terror groups. The geography of Mumbai — narrow lanes, houses close together, a warren-like network of alleys and lodgings — allows for such a form of urban terror.

Copycat jihad is possible — even probable — in London or New York, which have similar urbanscapes. It is less likely in, say, Lutyens’ Delhi or downtown Washington, where it is difficult to jump from roof to roof, and where wide avenues and larger perimeters will allow security forces to cordon off hijacked buildings and minimise collateral damage to neighbouring communities.

It is futile to look for the one controller or perpetrator of Indian jihad. In reality, there are several layers. The Indian Mujahideen uses commonly available chemicals to engineer low-tech bombs. The Harkat-ul-Jihad-al Islami and its affiliates use Bangladesh as a base and India’s east and North-East as a workplace. The Lashkar-e-Tayyeba seems to take direct operational charge of sophisticated missions — such as the Mumbai train bombings of July 2006 and, maybe, the November 26-28 barbarism as well.

Yet, the interoperability and skill-sharing mechanisms of these different jihadi groups cannot be discounted. For instance, the Mumbai terrorists borrowed from the Abu Sayyaf Group, the Islamist terror machine in the Phillipines. Starting with its April 2000 attack on the Malaysian beach resort of Sipadan, Abu Sayyaf has smashed into several sea-front locations in its speedboats, killed people and captured hostages, thrived on media publicity, and lived to tell the tale.

In Sipadan, it captured Westerners but set free two Malaysians who happened to be Muslims. At the Oberoi Hotel in Mumbai, the terrorists did something very similar. They spared a Turkish couple after confirming they were Muslim. Three Christian women who were with them were, however, shot.

To defeat this enemy — and defeated it must be, not because foreign investment will suffer or some such trivial reason, but if we are to leave any sort of stable nation and society as an inheritance for our children — it is important that India redoubles its physical and intellectual anti-terror infrastructure. Legal tools, weapons, even modern bulletproof vests — which could have saved Hemant Karkare’s life and which, the Government now says, will be imported by winter 2009 — and an acute study of the techniques and toxic philosophy of the global jihad conglomerate are necessary.

Yet, more than any of that, India requires a mindset change. Its people — businessmen, opinion-makers, ordinary citizens, police forces, not just politicians — have to prepare for a war, not a sporadic law and order problem. A change of Government will not be enough; the nature of the state needs to be transformed.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 29 Nov 2008 06:21

CNN-IBN

One of the guy being interviewed told he was having lunch with his boss when the perps burst through. He shoved his boss behind a sofa and covered him by lying on his top.

He was shot through the shoulder, and his boss was also shot, boss died. Guy was brave.

One kid lost his entire family.

Heart-breaking to watch the interviews.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2008 06:22

on CNN - Peter Bergan says that intel ops says that atleast 40-80 people are involved in this operation

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:22

Is it over at Taj?

Jake · Post by **Jake** » 29 Nov 2008 06:22

SBajwa wrote:

"A representative of the ISI will visit India, instead of its Director General Lt Gen Shuja Pasha, to help in investigating the Mumbai terrorism incident," a spokesman for the Prime Minister's House said in Islamabad
If India agrees to this then we are making the same mistake as USA. They(ISI) will learn from this operation and use for the next operation.

ISI needs to be stopped and only way to stop them is to stop the local support in India.

Absolutely correct !! I agree. First step would be to launch a relentless witch hunt for all Anti-India sympathisers and co-conspirators, within India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2008 06:23

shynee wrote:Here is some YouTube videos from Arnab Goswami - TimesNow

Arnab and Sohail Seth is awesome. Guys watch

Part-I
Part-II
Part-III

Thanks for posting - I missed recording this. It will be used...

Duangkomon · Post by **Duangkomon** » 29 Nov 2008 06:23

yvijay wrote:Another snippet from eenadu. This is the account recollected one of the constable, Mr.Jhadav. It seems the martayed police officers Mr.Kamte, Mr.Karkare, Mr. Salskar and the 3 other constables, all were travelling in the same qualis vehicle. They got the news that a red maruthi swift car was parked near Police headquarters and are leaving for that. Mr.Salskar took the steering from the driver and Mr.Kamate moved to the front. Mr.Karkare was in the second row and the other constables in the back. When they were near xaviers college, the terrorist opened fire on them from the bushes. All the three officers got hit. Then the mofos came to towards the vehicle and opened fire on the others. The constable Jhadav was hit in the right shoulder and fell inside the qualis. The other 3 police men were killed. They dragged the officers out of the Qualis and drove away the qualis with the other bodies in the back. These are the mofos who got killed at the police barricades.

The girlie man is one of them.

yvijay · Post by **yvijay** » 29 Nov 2008 06:24

SBajwa wrote:
by Vijay
They dragged the officers out of the Qualis and drove away the qualis with the other bodies in the back. These are the mofos who got killed at the police barricades
I thought that the alive arrested PIGs are the one's that were stopped at police Barricades at Girgaum? These same two PIGs that have their pictures plastered all over the world.

I'm sorry I was wrong. One was killed and other was taken alive.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 06:25

I wonder if any amount Gandhianism can save one from the murderous piglets. In case of Gandhi Vs Hitler, its obvious that Gandhi will win in the long term, but will be dead before victory.

Gandhism makes the crucial assumption that the opponent has a conscience; Gandhism makes an appeal to that conscience. Gandhi understood the necessity of putting down rabid dogs, and did not see it as dissonant with his philosophy. With respect to Hitler, Gandhi was mistaken about his nature.

In today's India, Gandhism is appropriate for misguided fellow countrymen, e.g., our politicians; and for e.g., dacoits or militants who can be persuaded to give up arms and surrender. It is likely not workable with these terrorists.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Nov 2008 06:26

abu bilal or whatever is clearly lying about there being only 12 people.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 29 Nov 2008 06:27

I am not sure if this was the link
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... urpg-2.cms
as posted above. A previous version seems to have suggested that the terrorists went directly to the rooms occupied by American officials. They seem to have removed that in the current version. The media is highly involved in this plot.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2008 06:30

Singha wrote:abu bilal or whatever is clearly lying about there being only 12 people.

You expect him to tell the truth?

This is a commando operation like in WWII when the Allies used the partisans etc by landing them from the sea. Its a mistake to think its terrorist action. Its an out and out act of war using irregulars. The training, the modus operandi everything shows that. Maj Gen. Cawthorne would be proud of his boys(ISI) for using all his tricks. Its not a chef/US operation but an SAS type operation going back to WWII.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:32

Jeez what's with our reporters? they are showing NSG snipers on the fire department lift!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:32

yVijay!! You don't have to be sorry.. we are just analyzing the details of these PIGS

so now the question is that whether the singing Ajmal is this Girlie boy or his taller boy friend? I think it is this Girlie boy.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 29 Nov 2008 06:32

Who is that guy on the floor, the renter?
(near nariman)

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 29 Nov 2008 06:33

Singha wrote:abu bilal or whatever is clearly lying about there being only 12 people.

It's likely that the master planner knew the whole plan but each cell only knew about its tasks. Atleast 70-80 people have to be involved here given the scale of the operation, including financing, logistics, communication/courier etc.

Duangkomon · Post by **Duangkomon** » 29 Nov 2008 06:36

Singha wrote:abu bilal or whatever is clearly lying about there being only 12 people.

If there are 2 left in Taj , there are 10 accounted for from the reports.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2008 06:36

Jake wrote:
shiv wrote: I would fear for his safety and for other members of the forces. Plus its a matter of being professional. Oh well, as long as it all turns out for the better.

Allow me to split hairs here.

He has not bee caught on camera because of lack of professionalism. You might not have intended to say that - but that is what it loks like.

He has been caught on camera because he has been mobbed by crowds of the sort that we are not accustomed to seeing from TV pictures in the West and other areas where TV crews get to hot spots.

Your touching concern for his safety and concerns about professionalism bring tears to my eyes. But once again - it is not lack of concern for his own safety or laxity on his part that have made this photograph appear. It is uncontrollable crowd in a place where crowd will not keep away. The security apparatus has only so many men. When they are fighting terrorisrts - the number of police available for crowd control is smaller - which is just what we saw on TV

Don;t forget that "crowd control" when politicians (our respected, honorable netas) have to be protected means police firing into crowds. Image police firing into this crowd? Or lathi charging?

I don't know if you have been watching live TV - the front - the tip of the crowd breaking the cordon is always a huge crowd of cameramen - who get beaten back and then say "Police brutality against the press". Even yesterday when the police were pushing back cameramen FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY - the reporters were saying "censorship". Can nobody understand hat is happening? How do you think thei cameraman got so close?He broke thecordon at a time when he should not have been doing that?

Why pass inane commenst about lack of professionalism and lack of security?

We need to understand the dynamics of what happens to our poor security personnel before shooting our mouhs off.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 29 Nov 2008 06:37

Anyone remember/have the audio, or have link to it where the terrorist sounds confused or caught, when the reporter asks him why he is in Mumbai? It could be an act, but of most of that conversation that seemed the most real (slip)...not sure where the link was from, maybe rediff.

S

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 29 Nov 2008 06:38

From Gerard's post

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2008_pg1_3

US spies killed in terrorist raid

NEW DELHI: Even though the Indian government has refrained from dragging Islamabad directly into the Mumbai terror attacks, insinuations suggest that diplomatic relations between the two countries may suffer in the aftermath of the attacks. It is believed that the terrorists identified and then killed two senior US intelligence officers staying at the Taj Mahal Hotel. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, in his address to the nation, pricked Pakistan thrice without naming it. The security agencies in New Delhi told reporters they suspected the role of Al Qaeda in the attacks. The agencies believed their suspicion arose from the way the terrorists captured Taj hotel and successfully identified two senior US intelligence officials by checking the passports of the foreigners who were staying there, sources said. iftikhar gilani

TOI said the same in the previous version of their report posted above. But they have removed those lines.

Jake · Post by **Jake** » 29 Nov 2008 06:38

sunilUpa wrote:Jeez what's with our reporters? they are showing NSG snipers on the fire department lift!

Well, one thing is sure, after this mess is cleared up, the specials forces will be given another mission; to take out all of those miserable, whining, kindergarten reporters who are clearly traitors !

But seriously, this is a major f****ing security hole !!

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 29 Nov 2008 06:38

I have a dreaded feeling, the chances of another attack of this nature is quite high, what if the pigs use armor piercing bullets ? They would have let their handlers know of the tactics of NSG. The next ops they will raise it a notch higher.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2008 06:39

A_Gupta wrote:
I wonder if any amount Gandhianism can save one from the murderous piglets. In case of Gandhi Vs Hitler, its obvious that Gandhi will win in the long term, but will be dead before victory.
Gandhism makes the crucial assumption that the opponent has a conscience; Gandhism makes an appeal to that conscience. Gandhi understood the necessity of putting down rabid dogs, and did not see it as dissonant with his philosophy. With respect to Hitler, Gandhi was mistaken about his nature.

In today's India, Gandhism is appropriate for misguided fellow countrymen, e.g., our politicians; and for e.g., dacoits or militants who can be persuaded to give up arms and surrender. It is likely not workable with these terrorists.

Gandhi was intelligent enough to understand that. Not the buffoons we call "leaders" today.

faraz · Post by **faraz** » 29 Nov 2008 06:41

Jake, NSG Commandos do reveal their faces. Atleast, they did that in Akshardham Temple operation. Many newspapers had pictures of NSG Commandos during that time. I am not sure why MARCOS hide their faces though.

Jake wrote:
As a private citizen, by all means, but as a member of an elite commando unit, I would fear for his safety and for other members of the forces. Plus its a matter of being professional. Oh well, as long as it all turns out for the better.

Jake · Post by **Jake** » 29 Nov 2008 06:44

shiv wrote:
Jake wrote:

Allow me to split hairs here.

He has not bee caught on camera because of lack of professionalism. You might not have intended to say that - but that is what it loks like.

He has been caught on camera because he has been mobbed by crowds of the sort that we are not accustomed to seeing from TV pictures in the West and other areas where TV crews get to hot spots.

Your touching concern for his safety and concerns about professionalism bring tears to my eyes. But once again - it is not lack of concern for his own safety or laxity on his part that have made this photograph appear. It is uncontrollable crowd in a place where crowd will not keep away. The security apparatus has only so many men. When they are fighting terrorisrts - the number of police available for crowd control is smaller - which is just what we saw on TV

Don;t forget that "crowd control" when politicians (our respected, honorable netas) have to be protected means police firing into crowds. Image police firing into this crowd? Or lathi charging?

I don't know if you have been watching live TV - the front - the tip of the crowd breaking the cordon is always a huge crowd of cameramen - who get beaten back and then say "Police brutality against the press". Even yesterday when the police were pushing back cameramen FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY - the reporters were saying "censorship". Can nobody understand hat is happening? How do you think thei cameraman got so close?He broke thecordon at a time when he should not have been doing that?

Why pass inane commenst about lack of professionalism and lack of security?

We need to understand the dynamics of what happens to our poor security personnel before shooting our mouhs off.

I mentioned safety as not in physical safety, but in disclosure of identity. That is why these forces usually do not reveal their identities. If you saw the press conference that the NSG gave; they were all masked. I do understand the unfortunate state of affairs as regards to crowds in India. Would you rather that a mission is comprimised due to lack of?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2008 06:46

John Snow wrote:
Some Indian journaliist need to be whacked on their backs in public and naked. Folks keep track of such DDM idiots..

Press censorshiiiiiiiiiiiiiip Police brutalityyyyyyyyyy!

But seriously the police are used by the politicians to do just this.

This is the ideal time to bash our cowardly and indecisive netas - who will soon screw us all in the elections and after the elections with bhashans and bash-ems.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Nov 2008 06:46

By AGupta
Gandhism is appropriate for misguided fellow countrymen, e.g., our politicians; and for e.g., dacoits or militants who can be persuaded to give up arms and surrender. It is likely not workable with these terrorists.

Sir!!

The million dollars question is how to guide the misguided countrymen when they are being guided by a philosophy that was created 1300 years ago?

The misguided countrymen do not think of India as their country and indians as their countrymen. For them looking west five times a day and serving those people and people of that country as their countrymen is the supreme reason.

How do we deter them to be guided by their country and their country men?

Sandeep - please stop making posts asking others to give up their religion - it is not appropriate for this forum. I would expect a senior member like you to know better.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2008 06:47

The terrorist attack is a result of the war between the hardline Islamist faction in TSP(Army, ISI, irregular armies, uleama) and the elected politicians(Zardari, Poor peoples party and RAPE). The hardliners want to force the softliners to back off from cooperating with US and India. They want a war. kabul embassy bombing which in intl law is an acto war wanst enough tfor GOI to go ballistic. They hope this will make them go ballistic and they can step in as saviours of TSP and Nazariay Pakistan.

However the softliners cant say they cant take action as the neighborhood is getting whacked with the results of their civil war. Either they have to take action against the troublemakers or step aside. This is what India and the world demands of them. They cannot go thru charades of talk and assurances. India has had 400% of those in the past.

Sending the ISI chief was an act of sympathetic gesture of good faith Rescinding the offer is an act of cowardice and admitting the guilt. TSP has always backtracked from such acts.
--------
Also the targetting of the US officals shows the ISI hand. They did that to Bush's security officer in Karachi. So they knew who was coming to the hotel and recognised the names from their databank.
-
Jake you made your point. Please move on. Thanks, ramana

Raj · Post by **Raj** » 29 Nov 2008 06:47

Singha wrote:abu bilal or whatever is clearly lying about there being only 12 people.

I think just in Taj , there might have be upto 15 . I think currently there might be around 2 or 3 inside Taj.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Nov 2008 06:48

many of the photo cameraman are actually freelancers who are always fighting to get shots the news agencies will consider buying. no employer
has any leverage on them to moderate and streamline their behaviour.

so a thick lathi wielded with appropriate malice is the only way. always works, low tech and rugged enough for repeated reuse.

faraz · Post by **faraz** » 29 Nov 2008 06:48

Were they NSG ? I think they were MARCOS.

Jake wrote:I mentioned safety as not in physical safety, but in disclosure of identity. That is why these forces usually do not reveal their identities. If you saw the press conference that the NSG gave; they were all masked.