Indian Missile Technology Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jan 2009 23:43

nukes to power ADS should be a must..if its a technical issue, i agree. else, there should be no environmental decision about it.. just think about an amrikaaan nuke carrier going bonkers near kalpakkam. is that a concern?, then it should be technical.

our decision should be always towards nuclear propulsion for strategic large naval vessels. /OT

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 05 Jan 2009 23:53

Well if we are able to miniaturize and silence the reactors for use on a sub like ATV, putting it on ADS should not be a problem - we can have all the extra protection, shielding and vibration control due to lesser restriction on size.

Coming back to missiles, nag final tests begin http://www.janes.com/news/defence/land/ ... _1_n.shtml

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jan 2009 23:58

I thought nag finished final trials, and army will be placing a huge order for nag-mk1 soon. check indian army thread.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 06 Jan 2009 05:18

uddu wrote:The Chinese cannot be and must not be taken lightly. The utilize all means to gain technology. What the U.S does is none of our business. What we must do to counter the Chinese and U.S tech must be the question.

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
Link

Some years ago and even recently Russian planes had flown over American Aircraft Carriers causing much embarrassment to the Amrikhans....

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 06 Jan 2009 07:33

Pentagon plays a lot of psyops games through such "leaks" of its vulnerability. In fact it leaks such "intrusions" much before the event is leaked by the aggressor nation and thus gets more money from the Senate to "plug holes" that never existed.

A CVN needs heavy hitting to make it sink and various people have tried in the past to bag one. Cole, with a giant hole caused by **boat load of explosives**, did not sink, let alone much more robust CVN hull. And during peacetime, if someone's sub actually penetrated silently and got away *without* detection by the Amirkhans, that country will be extremely quiet about that feat. For publicity means Amirkhan will sew that hole, but this time very *quietly*. What we hear about Chinese subs and overflights must be the least threatening from their POV and hence their release to media.

A CVN group's biggest vulnerability might be ordinance/aviation fuel resupply and to an extent, flight deck damage. If a sub fleet operating outside the ASW envelope can ensure that the resupply is disrupted, the CVN would become a bit of a liability that needs to be vacated from the theatre. Trying to sink one is best left to non-serious navies ( Eg: PLAN), who want a big drama for their domestic audience.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 06 Jan 2009 09:45

thanks kailash, SaiK; Arjun's weight problem if it is true, can be circumvented using the Kaveri kind of engines which are relatively lightweight? or that sets back the Arjun atleast 5 years while creating logistical issues?

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 06 Jan 2009 17:27

IAF missile base near Pak border

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2009 18:46

Kailash wrote:IAF missile base near Pak border
The BrahMos missiles will not only be stationed but also stocked there.

mmmm.. more strategic and political deterrence value I agree..i hope its a spin to feel its the only place we stock., and we do it hundreds elsewhere.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 06 Jan 2009 20:18

IMHO this "missile base" is nothing else but the facility where Indian equivalent of Red Flag exercise is supposed to happen. The area seems too big for a missile base IMHO.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 08 Jan 2009 01:32

New Delhi weighs up US missile shield

Officials at the US embassy in New Delhi told the Financial Times that talks had taken place, mainly at the technical level. They said US defence officials had conducted computer simulations with their Indian counterparts to demonstrate the capabilities of such technology. Experts from India’s Defence Research Development Organisation have also watched two live launches of missiles used in the shield system.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 08 Jan 2009 11:19

vasu_ray wrote:thanks kailash, SaiK; Arjun's weight problem if it is true, can be circumvented using the Kaveri kind of engines which are relatively lightweight? or that sets back the Arjun atleast 5 years while creating logistical issues?

That would be a recipe for disaster. The Arjun would become even more of a fuel hog with too frequent replenishment required. Besides, if a gas turbine were to be considered, it is much easier to adapt a helicopter engine for tank use, since it is designed for shaft hp, not thrust.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Jan 2009 11:32

IA categorically ruled out use of gas turbine engine in drawing up the GSQRs, those are considered to be fuel guzzlers by IA.

this is very common knowledge about arjun, suggest people should read up a bit on their own.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 08 Jan 2009 11:44

moved to artillery thread

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Jan 2009 23:33

This is big, its all over the news websites...
India-US 'missile shield talks'

As part of their overall strategic partnership, the US and India are engaged in talks over sale of missile shield systems to help New Delhi face any nuclear threats from Pakistan and other "volatile" countries in the region, a media report here said today.

Quoting unnamed US diplomats, the Financial Times said the preliminary talks took place mainly at a scientific and technical level and American defence officials had conducted computer simulations with their Indian counterparts.

Noting that India is a partner of the US, the officials said "we want to provide it with whatever it needs to protect itself. This fits into the overall strategic partnership we are building."

The Indo-US relations blossomed in the recent years culminating in the signing of a bilateral civil nuclear cooperation agreement.

The report said India's need for greater protection against threats emanating from Pakistan and other volatile countries in the region was highlighted by an escalation in the Indo-Pak tensions in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks.

It claimed that India also views China, with which it has a border dispute, as "a potential adversary."

Patriot missile defence systems? I recall, we already have one half of the system in green pine radar acquired from Israel. Does it mean the US has lost faith in the current piggistan leadership in preventing a nuke attack on us?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Jan 2009 23:36

The original article...
New Delhi weighs up US missile shield

The US is in preliminary talks with India over the sale of missile shield systems to help New Delhi guard against nuclear threats.

India’s need for greater protection against threats emanating from Pakistan and other volatile countries in the region was highlighted by an escalation in tensions between the two nuclear-armed neighbours following the Mumbai terror attacks in November last year. India and Pakistan have fought three wars over the last 61 years.

Officials at the US embassy in New Delhi told the Financial Times that talks had taken place over the last two years, mainly at the technical level. They said US defence officials had conducted computer simulations with their Indian counterparts to demonstrate the capabilities of such technology.

Experts from India’s Defence Research Development Organisation have also watched two live launches of missiles used in the shield system.

The development highlights the fast-changing nature of the strategic engagement between Washington and New Delhi, after decades of frosty relations.

“India is a partner of ours, and we want to provide it with whatever it needs to protect itself,” one US embassy official said. “This fits into the overall strategic partnership we are building.”

However, India’s politicians and defence planners have yet to take a final decision on whether to buy any foreign shield systems as they undertake an expensive modernisation of the army and replace ageing Soviet-era military hardware.

“I get the impression the scientists are quite interested, and that some in the strategic policy community…see this as a future tool in their kit bag,” another US official said. “But India’s political leadership and its strategic community need to decide what their interests and threats are.”

Satish Nambiar, former head of a military think-tank, said acquiring missile shield technology from Washington would be a sensitive move for any Indian administration, given public ambivalence towards the US.

“It would have very serious political repercussions here,” he said.

Interest among Indian defence planners in missile shield systems has grown considerably since September 11, 2001, prompted partly by fears of so-called “loose nukes” in Pakistan, where pervasive instability has prompted concerns about nuclear materials falling in the hands of rogue actors.

A senior Pakistani official with detailed knowledge of the country’s own nuclear programme said last night that Pakistan “will have to take counter- measures to respond” to any agreement between the US and India over a missile defence system.

“For the past many years, we have been considering the possibility of such an outcome one day,” the official said.

New Delhi also views China – with which it has an outstanding border dispute – as a potential adversary, although relations between the aspiring Asian superpowers remain polite.

India has been working to develop its own indigenous missile defence systems, and has conducted two missile intercept tests in the last two years.

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 09 Jan 2009 00:35

THAAD?

Or Patriot-3?

Interesting development...Interesting also that DRDO scientists viewed the tests in Alaska.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 09 Jan 2009 05:21

Nandan D wrote:THAAD?

Or Patriot-3?

Interesting development...Interesting also that DRDO scientists viewed the tests in Alaska.

Too much of DDM interpretation.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Jan 2009 05:35

Pentagon denies missile defense sales talks with India

A US defense official described the interaction with the Indians as being on "a very rudimentary level."

"We have invited them to observe two tests this year to facilitate discussions of the two countries' ballistic missile defense test programs," the official said.

But the official said the invitation was extended with the understanding that it did not signal "US intention or willingness to sell the systems involved."

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Jan 2009 09:24

http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/12/stories ... 031200.htm

Air Force places order with BEL for Akash missile

Ravi Sharma

Akash system comes with radars, mobile launchers and control centres

It will counter attacks from unmanned combat aerial vehicles, aircraft and missiles

BANGALORE: In a boost to the country’s missile development effort, the Indian Air Force has finally placed an order with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for two squadrons of medium range, surface-to-air missile Akash.

The Rs. 1,200-crore order comes 14 months after field trials at Pokhran in Rajasthan.

Earlier, the IAF had reservations about placing the order as the missile, in its present version, does not meet a few of its operating requirements. The IAF wanted a smaller, lighter missile that had a longer range and was more manoeuvrable. The missile also does not have a seeker. However, batch-by-batch improvements in Akash are expected.
Of the Patriot class

Developed by Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Akash is part of India’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme and comes with radars, mobile launchers, control centres, battlefield management software and other support systems. It will be utilised by the IAF against attacks from unmanned combat aerial vehicles, aircraft and missiles.

In the same class as the U.S.’ Patriot, Israel’s Barak and the U.K.’s SAM, the 5.78-metre long, 700-kg Akash can destroy targets as far away as 25 km and has a supersonic speed of 600 metres a second.

BEL has tied up with Larsen & Toubro, Tata Power, Walchand Industries and ECIL. It is contracted to deliver the two squadrons in 36 months. DRDL, besides transferring technology in the form of documents for production of Akash, will oversee the weapon system integration and provide support throughout the 20-year lifecycle of the missile.

Project Director R.R. Panyam told The Hindu that it was “for the first time that the country’s armed forces had placed an order for such a sophisticated, indigenously developed weapon system.”

The IAF could expect a consistent and reliable missile system, and it was expected to place more such orders.

The Army could also look to acquire Akash, but with modifications.

Calling the order an indication of the technical capabilities of indigenous defence laboratories, Prahlada, Chief Controller of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, said the missile had an 85 per cent kill probability.

Akash, which can destroy multiple targets, can be fired from both trucks and tracked vehicles.

It is expected to cost the exchequer less than similar missiles, whose cost is in the range of Rs. 5-6 crore each.

The Akash missile system, according to a statement made by Defence Minister A.K. Antony in the Rajya Sabha, cost the exchequer Rs. 516.86 crore for its development, the highest for any of India’s missile systems.

Why has the IA rejected the Aakash so far?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 12 Jan 2009 09:50

sum wrote:http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/12/stories ... 031200.htm
Why has the IA rejected the Aakash so far?

No idea. Last we heard, IA had complaints about BMP-based Akash launcher. DRDO developed a T72 based ASPL (Akash self propeled launcher), which went for mobility trials in Rajastan. And then, silence......

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2009 21:20

Earlier, the IAF had reservations about placing the order as the missile, in its present version, does not meet a few of its operating requirements. The IAF wanted a smaller, lighter missile that had a longer range and was more manoeuvrable. The missile also does not have a seeker. However, batch-by-batch improvements in Akash are expected.

that means, Akash Mk2 would be

sleek, light and more manoeuverable, longer range, mmw+ir terminal seeker perhaps.

sum wrote:Why has the IA rejected the Aakash so far?

perhaps, they want it to be integrated with samyukta

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 12 Jan 2009 21:42

So what is the launch vehicle for the Air Force version of Akash?
The picture show some kind of wheeled truck.

Also 2 squadrons, does that mean 2 x 16 = 32 launch vehicles?

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 12 Jan 2009 21:44

Anujan wrote:
sum wrote:http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/12/stories ... 031200.htm
Why has the IA rejected the Aakash so far?
No idea. Last we heard, IA had complaints about BMP-based Akash launcher. DRDO developed a T72 based ASPL (Akash self propeled launcher), which went for mobility trials in Rajastan. And then, silence......

That simply amazes...you would think that the launcher would be something that would be very basic to decide when developing the system for the army.

Or perhaps, the Akash didn't stay within its specs, which then forced the army to require a new vehicle?

Either way, the deployment of the Akash for the IAF is extremely encouraging...

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 12 Jan 2009 23:53

a dream scenario:

phalcon AWAC detects four F-16 taking off from la-whore,
and akash battery shoots them down before the under carriage
is withdrawn, after which LCA's are sent in to distribute
jalebees (anti-runway cluster bombs)

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 13 Jan 2009 00:11

The Akash has a 40km range.

An indian purchase of the Patriot or SA-12 in sufficient numbers, might make that a reality..

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 13 Jan 2009 00:43

SaiK wrote:
sum wrote:Why has the IA rejected the Aakash so far?
perhaps, they want it to be integrated with samyukta

I thought Samyukta was an EW system. Am I missing something here?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jan 2009 01:40

force multiplier integration.. so that engagement dynamics and operations control is easier... from a net centric warfare perspective.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 15 Jan 2009 03:04

Su Goes to Russia for Brahmos trials

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 Jan 2009 07:48

Cross posting Rahul M's post from Kaveri thread, with lots of loaded information on missiles.My highlights in blue colour.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The member is back from his sojourn to the heart of India's aerospace industry.
The following are excerpts from his email :
(There are some good and bad news with the bad news presented up front, in accordance with the email ordering. The highlights are mine)

Unfortunately, unlike the guys at NAL, IISC, ASTE and CABS, who turned out to be very proactive in their discussions with yours truly, the guys at the GTRE were not overly helpful to my queries. The best I could get out of that place other than actually seeing the engines was to get the lead guy to accept a written version of my queries as a favor. he says he will get back to me later. When I get the email from him, I will pass you a copy of his replies.

Nevertheless, here's some of my personal observations of the place:
a) Compared to the other institutions I have mentioned above, GTRE was almost deserted. No sign of life in that place compared to ASTE, for example.
b) The people working inside were almost lethargic as far as my interactions went. (Again, relatively speaking. NAL EAD (Experimental Aerodynamics Division) was buzzing with activity from mini UAV designs to Saras models being tested in large facilities)
c) The Kaveri engine is beautiful and an engineering masterpiece given the cost at which it has been made. According to the folks in the labs, they are now "within a few percent" of the required thrust levels
d) The Naval version of the engine is going ahead nicely. In fact, I saw more Navy guys at the place than IAF guys!
e) LCA integration remains a paper dream at this point. No fixed dates for any goals at that place. Before going there I had been told to expect this, but it was nevertheless disappointing.
f) SC blades still remains the lynchpin of the design. The Turbine temperatures remains limited until the issues with the SC blades are resolved, which in turn limits the thrust. As mentioned above, several labs are apparently working on the SC technology but again no fixed dates for anything.

The technical stuff in the questionnaire I submitted to the head honcho at GTRE will contain the answers to what the members at BR want to know, but it might be a week before I hear from my friend so don't hold your breath yet. Disappointing, I know, but that is the definition of the place as far as the guys at NAL, IISC etc think of GTRE.

Anyway, enough of the bad news. Now for some brief good news from the other Labs at NAL, ASTE and CABS:

a) LCA making good progress and experimental program to accelerate in the next two months.
b) Amazing (indeed groundbreaking is a better term) progress in Hypersonics both at IISC and NAL EAD. The HSTDV program has been made feasible is all I can say for now. Full flight test in 3 months. Modified Agni-I boost to 40km and then a 20 second burn using hydrogen injection across strut based injectors. Wind tunnel tests completed.
c) Pathbreaking advances in plasma drag reduction techniques (what we read briefly in the news etc) that reduce missile drag by 30% during reentry using the most simplest of techniques. In addition, the temperatures at the surface are reduced dramatically so that heat shield no longer needs to be as bulky as before. Reduced weight as a result leading to dramatic new values for the missile fuel-mass values.
d) Active noise control helmets for the LCA under design. These will cut out the engine background noise completely so that the pilot can listen to AWACS controls etc more clearly in the thick of combat.
e) Significant progress on the CABS AEW radar electronics. Aircraft integration studies underway.
f) Micro-UAV designs being studied at NAL for the Army.
g) Chetan Helicopter undergoing flight tests.
h) Some activity seen on the Avro "Hack" with regard to LCA MMR. (Though that was out of bounds for me, so not many more details here)
i) New self compensating aero-nozzles for SLVs and Multi-stage missiles. Reduces overall requirement for different stages with different nozzle area ratios and increases fuel carriage and so shows exponential increase in range for the same design sizes. In wind tunnels right now awaiting flight tests.
k) Base bleed studies underway for reduced missile drag. Also in wind tunnels at NAL EAD.
l) A new fixed wing design aircraft being designed at NAL. Very hush-hush, I am told. They wouldn't even tell me what the aircraft type was!!
g) NAL designers are talking of a new large body civilian airliner type aircraft project about to begin.
h) NAL collaborating with GTRE now for advances in afterburning engine nozzles. Also, NAL now beginning studies in turbine blade perfromance. They seem to be bypassing GTRE on a number of issues. This is something that became increasingly obvious after a few hours of talks with the people there.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 16 Jan 2009 08:11

Arun_S-saar, a question:

i) New self compensating aero-nozzles for SLVs and Multi-stage missiles. Reduces overall requirement for different stages with different nozzle area ratios and increases fuel carriage and so shows exponential increase in range for the same design sizes. In wind tunnels right now awaiting flight tests.

annular aerospike or a pulse detonation one or something even more twisted?

I am awaiting for our version of the "flaming pumpkin seed". yind-guo-ren's ambitions are soaring indeed

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 Jan 2009 11:30

hnair wrote:annular aerospike or a pulse detonation one or something even more twisted?

Truncated Annular Aerospike with truncation bleed.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 16 Jan 2009 13:02

For abhaga jingo's like meself some more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerospike_engine

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 16 Jan 2009 23:56

andy B, here is another link

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 17 Jan 2009 10:18

hnair wrote:Arun_S-saar, a question:

i) New self compensating aero-nozzles for SLVs and Multi-stage missiles. Reduces overall requirement for different stages with different nozzle area ratios and increases fuel carriage and so shows exponential increase in range for the same design sizes. In wind tunnels right now awaiting flight tests.
annular aerospike or a pulse detonation one or something even more twisted?
I am awaiting for our version of the "flaming pumpkin seed". yind-guo-ren's ambitions are soaring indeed

My sense is it got something to do with ablative material that changes/adapts as the gas flow rate changes over time in solid fuel motor.

Recall that case thickness is determined by peak pressure, so ability to reduce peak pressure while minimizing impact on total impulse, will directly translate in greater mass fraction of the stage.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 18 Jan 2009 19:49

DRDO is yet to finalize the partner for Maitri LLQRM.
http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=26797

Sarkozy said discussions for co-development of a Short-range Surface to Air Missile (SR-SAM) systems were also "nearing conclusion." DRDO has released global RFP for co-development of SR-SAM system and is looking for foreign collaborators to develop the system.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Jan 2009 21:00

BrahMos testfiring postponed

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 21:48

What happened to the ABM test?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 18 Jan 2009 23:11

India plans to use laser weapons in Ballistic Missile Defence

New Delhi (PTI): India is planning to develop a laser based weapon system as part of its Ballistic Missile Defence to intercept and destroy missiles soon after they are launched towards the country.

"If you have a laser based system on an airborne or seaborne platform, it can travel at the speed of light and in a few seconds, we can kill a ballistic missile coming towards us," DRDO's Air Defence Programme Director V K Saraswat told PTI here.

He said the laser based interceptor will give "more time" to the BMD system to kill ballistic missile launched from a distance of 2000 kms.

"Suppose if the missile is being launched at Indian target from 2000 km. If I have to kill it there, I will have to travel that distance, which will require many minutes to be there. If you have a laser system travelling at a speed of light, it can kill that missile in its boost phase (just after launch) even before it has travelled a few 100 kilometers," Saraswat, who is Chief Controller R&D, said.

A ballistic missile take-off has three segments. When launched, it is called boost phase, and followed by the mid course when it reaches the highest point of its trajectory and lastly the terminal phase when it is coming close to the target on ground.

Saraswat said its ideal to destroy a ballistic missile carrying nuclear or conventional warhead in its boost phase.

"It's easier to kill a missile in boost phase as it has not gained much speed and is easier to target. It cannot deploy any countermeasures and it is vulnerable at that time," Saraswat said.

The distinguished scientist stated that DRDO laboratories like The Laser and Science Technology Centre (LASTEC) was also developing such technologies.

"In LASTEC, we are developing many of these technologies. We have to package these technologies on aircraft like the Americans have done on their systems," he added.

Saraswat added that it will take another 10-15 years for the premier defence research institute to make it usable on ground.

"It is an involved process and not just about producing lasers. We have to put in many systems like the surveillance and tracking systems together for such a system to work. It will take another 10-15 years before we talk of integrating all these elements," he said.

Good job DRDO/LASTEC.
Few years ago I might have seen target tracking laser being tested at LASTEC. They do not have enough open space to do experimental work. Poor fellows had to made do with blocking off an in campus road to test their gadget. Visitors get a free view if they know what it is they are looking at by looking at the poke marked target and the diameter of the Laser end-firing optics.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 19 Jan 2009 00:55

In addition to the Laser, in the next 10 years with the aerodynamics of HSDTV/Avatar being worked out, would it help us create a 'light weight Brahmos III' version that can be launched from LEO and hard intercept ballistic missiles in mid phase flight? or even ASAT weapons

Launch a group of such 'satellites' at one go using the available heavy launch vehicle just when a shooting war starts and if not used by the end of the hostilities then de-orbit them like the capsule collected in the near past

A single launch economics will be better than covering whole of the country with ABM defenses

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 19 Jan 2009 03:40

what is the point in time at which TSP starts to believe that its nukes when used have a higher probability of detonating on their own land/airspace than on us? even after it is propped up by Chinese time and again?

what kind of technological superiority on our side makes the attempt of using nukes a liability to TSP?