Discussion on Indian Special Forces

[RayC]

Netnet, from the reality standpoint, 1982 was just another year!

Why then did the entire security machinery gear up to "search" Sikhs entering Delhi? There were so many quoted incidents of the police frisking Sikhs in abominable manner..A lot of the writings of that period does quote the Asiad experience as one of the last straws on the back for the Sikh militancy..

In so far as the SOG and Greyhounds, you may like to go through what you have written.

which part do you find inaccurate?

Really?

So, you are talking of frisking in 1982.

Real or imagined?

Do give us some of the 'lot of writings of that period'. Of course, while you may possibly delight in quoting Khalistanis, do keep it to saner elements.

What I find is inaccurate? Open up your eyes now, tell me what you see. So sang the Beatles!

[ssmitra]

Somnath and Rayc you guys are beginning to sound like you are married. From the Indian Army Discussion to this.....

[RayC]

Somnath and Rayc you guys are beginning to sound like you are married. From the Indian Army Discussion to this.....

Sadly, for you and the popular theory, I get along fine with my wife! 35 years, if you don't mind! Soon we will compete with Mohenjodaro!

Now, if canards and selective amnesia hits someone, who makes it his favourite hobby horse to condemn the Armed Forces with his selective quotes, what is the option? The old proverb on lying down if it is inevitable?

My training has taught me never say die! And sadly, Politically correctness was never my forte! I was never a Relationship Manager or a Marketing chap. Such things were not slots in my profession!

What junk that Sikhs were frisked. I used to travel by train through the Punjab and I did not see anyone being frisked in Punjab or in Delhi when I had to change my train for the onward journey elsewhere or when I broke journey to stay with my relatives there!

Lots of Sikh officers also travelled in mufti to go for courses etc. They were not frisked! Stating things glibly just to 'prove' a point is disinformation!

Since Somnath is in the know of everything and knows all, could he just check with KP Singhdeo, who organised the Asiads?

[ssmitra]

Sadly, for you and the popular theory, I get along fine with my wife! 35 years, if you don't mind! Soon we will compete with Mohenjodaro!

I see you believe in the "special forces" motto: You can either be right or you can be married

Now, if canards and selective amnesia hits someone, who makes it his favourite hobby horse to condemn the Armed Forces with his selective quotes, what is the option? The old proverb on lying down if it is inevitable?

My training has taught me never say die! And sadly, Politically correctness was never my forte! I was never a Relationship Manager or a Marketing chap. Such things were not slots in my profession!

Unfortunately, as someone tried to say in the Indian Army Discussion, when you guys start slinging it out like that it detracts from the ongoing discussion and belittles your seniority and stature. That goes for somnath too.

completely off the topic you once mentioned you were in a scheduled caste regiment.. would that be the Mahars or Bihar
If it was the Mahars did you by any chance know a Brig Thorat (no relation to Gen thorat)..
Brig Thorat was about to take over GOC in C Northern Command or western Command just before he died of a heart attack.

[RayC]

Sadly, for you and the popular theory, I get along fine with my wife! 35 years, if you don't mind! Soon we will compete with Mohenjodaro!

I see you believe in the "special forces" motto: You can either be right or you can be married

Now, if canards and selective amnesia hits someone, who makes it his favourite hobby horse to condemn the Armed Forces with his selective quotes, what is the option? The old proverb on lying down if it is inevitable?

My training has taught me never say die! And sadly, Politically correctness was never my forte! I was never a Relationship Manager or a Marketing chap. Such things were not slots in my profession!

Unfortunately, as someone tried to say in the Indian Army Discussion, when you guys start slinging it out like that it detracts from the ongoing discussion and belittles your seniority and stature. That goes for somnath too.

completely off the topic you once mentioned you were in a scheduled caste regiment.. would that be the Mahars or Bihar
If it was the Mahars did you by any chance know a Brig Thorat (no relation to Gen thorat)..
Brig Thorat was about to take over GOC in C Northern Command or western Command just before he died of a heart attack.

Let me place the facts right.

In the Army, please understand we are not some concentration camp and zombies who run around saying, ''Yes Sir'' to the power 'n'.

The rule is: while a decision is under formulation, speak your mind out, irrespective of your seniority and station. But once a decision is taken and even if it not what you had suggested, implement it with all your might and dedication as if it were your own.

Therefore, unlike maybe in the corporate world, we wear our ranks and seniority lightly when in a in house discussion. I take it that the BR is an in house discussion. Had I had the pomposity and self grandeur of seniority and rank, many would have been banished since I am a Moderator! I would not have allowed any deviation! So, spare me this seniority and stature pizazz!

I would go one length further. If one knows his place, he does not have to mention his position and station. However, an upstart and a Johnny Come lately, has to! He is a rootless character out to prove his assumed greatness! I am no upstart nor a Johnny Come Lately. I know who I am, I know what I have done in life and I know who I am on the BR. I can afford to be magnanimous and overlooking omissions! And I love divergent thoughts. That is the beauty of leadership. Imagine a lesser individual showing any quarters who has suddenly found himself the best of his breed and permitted in genteel society!

What that chap who has said earlier, I politely let it go. I would rather have an intellectual banter than waste my time on the mundane and puerile! He has his opinion and I am not running for elections. And no one stopped him from bringing his two penny bit on another issue relevant to the thread. Was he petrified and paralysed? I don't think I am qualified for suggesting a remedy to his moribund existence during the interlude with Somanth!

Bihar, BTW, is not a scheduled caste majority regiment.

Brig Thorat could not have taken over as a GOC in C of any Command since a Brigadier, even if promoted to a Maj Gen has to be a Div Commander and then as a Lt Gen and a Corps Commander adn get selected thereafter to take over a Command!

[ssmitra]

Bihar, BTW, is not a scheduled caste majority regiment.

Brig Thorat could not have taken over as a GOC in C of any Command since a Brigadier, even if promoted to a Maj Gen has to be a Div Commander and then as a Lt Gen and a Corps Commander adn get selected thereafter to take over a Command!

sorry my bad about the Bihar Regt I though most of them came from Adivasi groups like Santhal ,Ho etc..

About Brig Thorat I was a wee 11 years old so I may be wrong about his rank just wanted to know if you ever knew him. He was a big influence in my life and was the reason army was my first career choice..couldn't go thru because of spine injury but that is a different matter.
Didn't realize it would set you off....

We were discussing whether the NSG should be with the army or police and it ended up with you and somnath trying to trash each others credentials.

[RayC]

Bihar, BTW, is not a scheduled caste majority regiment.

Brig Thorat could not have taken over as a GOC in C of any Command since a Brigadier, even if promoted to a Maj Gen has to be a Div Commander and then as a Lt Gen and a Corps Commander adn get selected thereafter to take over a Command!

sorry my bad about the Bihar Regt I though most of them came from Adivasi groups like Santhal ,Ho etc..

About Brig Thorat I was a wee 11 years old so I may be wrong about his rank just wanted to know if you ever knew him. He was a big influence in my life and was the reason army was my first career choice..couldn't go thru because of spine injury but that is a different matter.
Didn't realize it would set you off....

We were discussing whether the NSG should be with the army or police and it ended up with you and somnath trying to trash each others credentials.

Tribal are Scheduled Tribes. Yes, not only the Bihar Regt, but my Regt also has them.. Great chaps, if you ask me and it was a pleasure to rub shoulders with them and others!

Brig Thorat of my Regt is or was a Legend! We have great respect for him. I have had dinner with him. Like any good Maharastrian soldier, he was magnanimous and at that time, I was but only a Capt. I look on my association with fond memories.

I don't wish to trash Somnath, but disinformation and canards are dangerous issues and cannot be allowed to be unanswered in an Open Forum.

One one side, he pretends to be rooting for betterment of the Services lot and on the other hand, he goes hell for leather, condemning everything!

If someone else has been here as a Mod, his days would have been numbered!

I am cool. I live dissent. That is where one can see how it is seen from the 'other side of the hill'! And unless you see the other side of the hill, you will always think you are the best, as Somnath claimed that his financial ilk is the best and brilliant of the lot in this world! A stupid and megalomaniac statement that stamp each his post.

In my profession we are trained to study humans. I daresay, Somnath is an interesting chap!

Did you notice how parochial he is? He disagrees partially with Arundhoti Roy, but supports her because she is HALF Bengali! Christ! That is the sum and substance of his 'debates'! Jyoti Basu is a Bengali, so by his logic, I should support him since he brought Darkness to Bengal inspite of his name being Light? Give me a break. I have not sold my brains to parochialism and dogma!

I love such chaps. Seen many. And that is why I give him he latitude. He keeps my brain agile. He is doing social service thus!

I love these social service characters. They also serve who stand and wait!

And BTW, rattling of the names of a few books without substantiating with extracts is similar to name dropping!

[ParGha]

- Army has to be used in aid og civil admin as a LAST RESORT. or in a special case.

Sachin, RayC and others with military or constitutional-law background:

1. Is it possible to make it a legal prerequisite that an extraordinary procedure from Central government can alone can authorize deployment of armed forces in civil crisis? I am not too familiar with Indian constitutional framework (one of the inadequacies of a mainly technical education, I am afraid). Consider for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

2. Is it desirable to have such a high legal threshold? It works in the US for a multitude of reasons that don't necessarily apply to India (a two-party democracy, the state governors have extraordinary powers, US National Guards capabilities etc). Also, if the Indian Army becomes the last resort call-up you can be sure that others have let the matters get as bad a possible which prompt, firm and neutral intervention could have nipped in the bud. Is that risk acceptable?

[ks_sachin]

- Army has to be used in aid og civil admin as a LAST RESORT. or in a special case.

Sachin, RayC and others with military or constitutional-law background:

1. Is it possible to make it a legal prerequisite that an extraordinary procedure from Central government can alone can authorize deployment of armed forces in civil crisis? I am not too familiar with Indian constitutional framework (one of the inadequacies of a mainly technical education, I am afraid). Consider for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

2. Is it desirable to have such a high legal threshold? It works in the US for a multitude of reasons that don't necessarily apply to India (a two-party democracy, the state governors have extraordinary powers, US National Guards capabilities etc). Also, if the Indian Army becomes the last resort call-up you can be sure that others have let the matters get as bad a possible which prompt, firm and neutral intervention could have nipped in the bud. Is that risk acceptable?

ParGha,
The whole issue of problem management is that it is nipped in the bud.
So what I have stated is that all organs of the state are adequately equipped to deal with this situation. But there is a threshold that has to be crossed beyond which it becomes mandatory to call in an entity more experienced...
it also has to do with the issue and the impact analysis....not only from a tactical / operational sense but also from a geopolical sense if required....
If the NSG is a HRT specialist then the Army should have no qualms in asking for its assistance if so required....


--Should the army specialise in Hostage Rescue??? - Not sure
--Should it be specialising in combat in Urban areas - Yes - yes at a general level as well as part of SF doctrine
---Should it come to the air of civilian authorities - floods/ famine etc etc - absolutely

[RayC]

The Armed Forces are instruments of the Central Govt and hence Central Govt sanction is required for their employment.

However, in case of dire emergency and when the situation is beyond the resources of the State law enforcement, the Army can be requisitioned in consultation with the local military commander. It is obvious that verbal sanction would have been obtained from the Central Govt, which will be followed by a written sanction.

However, the reason why the military is used as the first resort is basically because of political reasons. Given the state of efficiency of the State police forces, and their local loyalties including political, possibly they are not that dependable to quell the disturbances in quick time. This can thus lead to negative impact politically. As I have stated earlier, politicians are very sensitive to protecting their own bacon and thereby prolonging their useful life in staying in power. Hence, to avoid prolonging a bad situation and appear incompetent, the politicians in govt want a quick end to a bad situation before it becomes hopeless!

The Army, unlike the Police, on the other hand, because of their training, regimentation and discipline, have no religious, communal or other 'loyalties' that may hamper their execution of the task quick time. Hence, they are sought after as the first resort.

Take the Mumbai Riots, Hyderabad riots, Golden Temple etc etc. In each case, once the Army was deployed, the situation, irrespective of any religious, communal, caste etc denomination of the troops, the task was executed! It is worth noting that the State resources failed. It is not that the State Resources are incapable, it is just that there are too many local and other issues, including political, at play!And since this has been happening from Baba Adam's days, they have the spirit, but the flesh is weak!

In so far as the US and Indian differences in the rules and procedure of employing Central military resources are concerned, it is possibly because of historical perceptions, precedences and expediency.

[Raja Bose]

X-posting from the Mumbai Attacks thread:

As expected the Pakistani handlers were monitoring our shameless media who were showing the operation on live TV. My question is, are there laid down procedures in IA/NSG urban operations doctrine which comprehensively cover the jamming of radio signals? Or is it left to the complete discretion of the unit commander on the ground? It is quite evident from the transcript below that the terrorists would not have been that effective if they had been deprived of the 'eyes & ears' of their handlers. I am personally not aware of any type of mobile jammers being used by SAG in any of their operations. In this age of twitter, blogging and satphones, it becomes a life-or-death issue - in this case Hav. Bisht might have been alive for his nation and family. This is no longer the age of Op.Nimrod where some half-wit middle eastern terrorists take over an embassy and don't know what hit them. Information Technology is also a weapon in the modern terrorist's arsenal and measures need to be taken to counter it effectively.

----- X-Post (forgive my rant) -----
Finally irrefutable proof that Havaldar Gajender Singh's death was due to our own goddamn idiotic stupid juvenile and naive media for whom ethics is only a word in the dictionary. Barkha and her ilk need to be publicly shamed but no, we will probably shower them with Bharat Ratnas, being the spineless 'Gandhian' nation that we are! Who needs enemies when such traitors are present within our country.

The following is from Harinder Baweja's book.

15 men have climbed down on your building

28 November, 7.23 am, Chabad House

[The voice goes into consultation with other voices in the room. Some other voice now takes over the phone.]

Handler: Salaam ailekum.

Terrorist: Wailekum as-salaam.

Handler: Kya haal chaal hai pasha? (How are you doing pasha --[a term of endearment]?)

Terrorist: Mere khayal se team utaar di gayi hai (I think the team has got off).

Handler: Aapke chhat par pandrah bande abhi utre hain helicopter se (Fifteen men have climbed down on your rooftop right now). (How would have the Pakistani handler known, if the media had not been blabbing away like half-wits showing the entire heli drop on live TV?!@!#@!)

Terrorist: Khidkiyon ke saamne bhi kuchh khade hain (They are standing in front of the windows as well).

Handler: Kya keh rahe hain? Aapko nazar aa raha hai kuch udhar? (What are you saying? Can you see anything there?)

Terrorist: Saamne kuchh firing ho rahi hai (They are firing in the front).

Handler: Aapke oopar se unhe neeche aana hai. Aapne seedhiyon par aisi position banani hai ki aate hi aap unhe gher lein: unhe seedhiyon se utarna hai neeche. Lekin aisi position banaye ki unke oopar aane se pehle aap grenade feke. Aap aisi position banaye ki matlab kamre mein rahein lekin jo seedhi hai na. Achha, aapko daaye baaye koi fauji nazar aa raha hai? (They have to climb down to reach you. Take such positions on the staircase so you can corner them as soon as they come: they will have to get down from the stairs. But you throw grenades before they come. You take such a position, you stay in the room but the stairs. Listen, can you see any Army personnel to your right and left?) (Thank you Barkha Dutt and NDTV! I hope it feels really great you bi**h for causing deaths of our soldiers in Kargil and Mumbai!)

Terrorist: Hamare saamne saaf nazar aa rahe, khidkiyon mein baithe hain (We can see them clearly in the front, sitting in the windows).

Handler: Maaro, fire karo, burst maaro. Achha, baat suno, aap abhi kamre mein ho na, aap fire karo. Ek banda bahar darwaje ke paas position leke rakhe, ek andar se fire kare (Hit them, fire, open burst fire. Ok, listen, just fire from the room. Let one person take position by the door and you fire from inside).

Terrorist: Lekin hamara aage ka kamra damage ho gaya hai. Hamare paas position nahi baachti hai (But the room in front of us is damaged. We don't have a position left).

Handler: Lekin aapko woh nazar aa rahe hain. Kyunki jaise hi unhone aapko dekh liya unhone aap par fire shuru kar dena hai (But you can see them. Because if they see you, they too will start firing immediately).

Terrorist: To issi liye keh raha hun ki oopar chhat par jayein aur wahan ladayi kare (That's why I'm saying, we should go to the roof and fight there).

Handler: Aapne oopar nahi chadna hai. Do baatein yaad rakhni hain: number ek, jo sniper baithe huye hai na khidkiyon mein, jahan se mauka mil gaya wahan se inhe fire karna hai; doosra, jo log upar utre hai, pandrah log helicopter se, woh aapki taraf aa rahe hain. Unpar grenade feke (No, you do not have to climb up. Remember two things: one, as soon as you get the chance, fire at the snipers in the window; two, the fifteen people who have got off the helicopter are coming towards you. You have to throw grenades at them).

Terrorist: Hamare paas grenade sirf chaar bache hain (We have only four grenades left).

Handler: Achha, aap log apni positioning bana lein aur shuru ho jayein (Ok, you take your positions and begin).

Terrorist: Positioning mujhe samajh nahi aa rahi ki kaise banani hai (I cannot understand which positions to take).

Handler: Seedhiyan corner mein hai na pasha? (The stairs are in the corner, aren't they?)

Terrorist: Haan ji, ek side mein hain (Yes, they are on one side).

Handler: To ek banda seedhiyon ko cover kare aur doosra cross baithe; jaise maine shaam ko samjhaya tha. Jaise koi agar neeche aata hai to dono taraf se ghir jaaye. (So one of you has to cover the steps and the other has to sit across; the way I had explained it in the evening. So that if someone comes down, he is surrounded on both sides.)

Terrorist: Lekin woh agar grenade fekte hain to hamare paas grenade se bachne ke liye aad nahi hai. (But if he throws a grenade, we do not have any cover to protect ourselves.)

Handler: Meri baat suno pasha. Agar aap deewar se chipak kar khade ho jaate ho, aur agar grenade fekte to kya aap tak aa sakega? (Listen to me, pasha. If you stick to the wall, can the grenade reach you?)

Terrorist: Deewar maine bataya na (I told you about the wall).

Handler: Achha aapke paas aur kya hai -- koi sofa, furniture ya foam ka gadda? (Ok, what else do you have -- any sofa, furniture, or foam mattress?)

Terrorist: Haan, foam ka gadda hai, ek minute (Yes, there is a foam mattress, one minute). [Another man comes on the phone.]

Handler: Aap ek kaam karein. Aap grenade fekte hue neeche utarna shuru karein (You do this. While throwing grenades, you start climbing down).

Terrorist: Hamare paas grenade nahi hai (We don't have grenades).

Handler: Do to bache hai na? Woh istemal karein aur neeche wali manzil mein chale jaayein (You have at least two left, don't you? Use those and go to the floor below).

Terrorist: Hum darwaze ke peechhe chhup jaayein aur jaise hi woh andar aaye to hum firing karein? (Should we hide behind the door, and the moment they come, should we fire?)

Handler: Aap alag alag chhup sakte hain? (Can you hide at different places?)
[Another man takes the phone.]

Handler: Aap ek kaam karein. Aap chhat ki taraf chalein; grenade feke aur unki taraf fire karein. Woh aap par fire kare isse pehle aap unpar fire kare. Aap Bismillah karein (You do this. Go towards the roof, throw the grenade at them; and fire at them before they can fire at you. Do this now, in the name of Allah).

Terrorist: Theek hai, ja rahe hain Allah ka naam leke (Okay, we will go, remembering the name of Allah).

Handler: Bismillah-e-Rehman-e-rahim (In the name of Allah, most Gracious, most Compassionate).

Excerpted from 26/11 Mumbai Attacked, Edited by Harinder Baweja, Roli Books, 2009, with the publisher's kind permission.

------ X-Post ------

[kaangeya]

I remember an instance in 1989, while serving with the Indian Peace Keeping Force. I was attending a party in Colombo in the lawns of the Indian High Commission to celebrate the Republic Day. The Pakistani Naval advisor chatted up me when he learnt I was a senior staff officer of the IPKF. “Colonel, I believe you’re having problem with employment of Madras Regiment units in Sri Lanka operations,” he said. Clearly he was needling me because I was a Tamilian.

In 1965 Pakistan had made a clumsy propaganda effort to play up the so-called South-North divide among some of the South Indian prisoners of war. It not only failed miserably but boomeranged when the Pakistanis were shooed out by the jawans. In reality, the Madras Regiment fought with thorough professionalism during the Jaffna operations. So to reply him was easy; “Commander, I don’t know about your army, but I know our army. If I ask a squad of soldiers to open fire on the passing traffic on Mount Road (in Madras) they will just do that. They would not show any hesitation.” This is the level of conditioning our soldiers have.

From Col. Hariharan's Intelligence Blog, who BTW is now the point of reference for Amreekhan news agencies on Sri Lanka.

So for doubters like Somnath who don't understand the ethos of the world's finest fighting force, this is a reminder. The Indian armed forces are staffed by exceptional men and led by exceptional officers, who have never cared a naya paisa for kulam, gotram, mazhab - it is always a matter of honour and the timeless soldier's creed.

[Ashutosh Malik]

It is possible that this has already been alluded to but I wasnt sure so I thought I could mention about it.

Lt. Gen. Vijay Oberoi has edited a book titled "Special Forces - Doctrine, Structures and Employment Across the Spectrum of Conflict in the Indian Context"

Publisher: Knowledge World
for Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS)
ISBN: 81-87966-39-4

This was originally published in 2006 and reprinted in 2007. It was an outcome of a seminar on this subject that CLAWS had organised in November 2004.

Best
Ashu

[VinodTK]

Special forces for deployment at short notice: Chidambaram

[sum]

Bit more details of the proposed 600 man SF unit at B'luru:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/21/stories ... 580100.htm

Bangalore: A full-fledged Special Forces Unit of the Army comprising 600 personnel for anti-terror operations will be set up in Bangalore by the end of March, Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram said here on Friday.

It will comprise personnel drawn from various infantry regiments trained with special skills.

Speaking to presspersons after visiting the Special Forces Unit being located at 106 Territorial Army Battalion at Benson Town, Mr. Chidambaram said that the unit now had 100 personnel of various ranks. Its services would be available to the State at short notice, he said.

“The strength of the unit will be increased to 600 in two phases, 250 personnel in each phase by the month-end,” he said and added that the unit is fully equipped and has well-trained personnel.

The unit will be eventually shifted to a location at Hebbal.

[Raja Bose]

Bit more details of the proposed 600 man SF unit at B'luru:

The unit will be eventually shifted to a location at Hebbal.

Interesting...Hebbal is where Maj. Unnikrishnan was born.

[rkhanna]

So a 600 man unit has been raised in under 3 months to undertake CT/HR missions.. i hope this doesnt turn out to be a huge waste of money and (later) lives.

[mohan]

So a 600 man unit has been raised in under 3 months to undertake CT/HR missions.. i hope this doesnt turn out to be a huge waste of money and (later) lives.

I don't quite understand the second half of the statement. Is there any good reason to assume that there will be loss of life/waste of money?

Just to be upfront about where I am coming from, I strongly believe that civilian security agencies such as police are not equipped (in terms of training, psyche, command chain) to execute CT/HR ops. We need either the armed forces, or another organisation exactly like the armed forces for such situations.

[Raja Bose]

So a 600 man unit has been raised in under 3 months to undertake CT/HR missions.. i hope this doesnt turn out to be a huge waste of money and (later) lives.

rkhanna, Can you list some reasons why it would be so. I am not being sarcastic, just asking your thoughts.
TIA.

[RayC]

I think he inadvertently mentioned about lives being lost.

[sum]

Which military unit is near Hebbal?

I would have assumed that they would be near Jalahalli A.F.B, venue of Aero India(s) (ensures mobility also since it is a Transport/Helo base)?

[rkhanna]

I don't quite understand the second half of the statement. Is there any good reason to assume that there will be loss of life/waste of money?

\


Let me clarify. A Military trained unit (for conventional warfare) cannot run CT/HR operations. Giving these men a couple of months of training (that too by the 100s) has created a less than credible force. GSG-9 , NSG, GIGN also draws men with Armed Forces training. Yet it takes months to weed out the weak and turn them into effective CT Assaulters. Alot of time , and money is spent on their "re-training". Just because they are called "Special Forces" doesnt mean they are special for this task. Similarly Army SF cant do the job of the NSG and also will need to be retrained.

Op bluestar showed the need for a specially trained CT force where Army SF couldnt do the job hence the NSG was raised.
Another example would be the botched Munich Olympic rescue by the German Army. All hostages dead.

In CT operations (this i am getting from an IA Army major who has served with the NSG) everything is different . Including Sniper Training is different from Regular Mil Sniper Training. ANd it takes time to bring such troops up to speed.THese soldiers will have to unlearn most of what they already know and learn new skills to operate in a Urban CT/HR envoirment. It takes time.


You have rushed 250 men with less than 2 months of CT Training into operational mode. If an Incident were to occur not only could they get themselves killed they could get the hostages killed as well.

I hope this unit is not just for Vote Bank Politics. Its heavily diluted and doesnt serve the purpose. A Highly trained , equipped dedicated SWAT Type CT/HRT Unit. If you have to do something do it right. This just seems like a poor knee jerk reaction to me.

[RayC]

I don't quite understand the second half of the statement. Is there any good reason to assume that there will be loss of life/waste of money?

\


Let me clarify. A Military trained unit (for conventional warfare) cannot run CT/HR operations. Giving these men a couple of months of training (that too by the 100s) has created a less than credible force. GSG-9 , NSG, GIGN also draws men with Armed Forces training. Yet it takes months to weed out the weak and turn them into effective CT Assaulters. Alot of time , and money is spent on their "re-training". Just because they are called "Special Forces" doesnt mean they are special for this task. Similarly Army SF cant do the job of the NSG and also will need to be retrained.

Op bluestar showed the need for a specially trained CT force where Army SF couldnt do the job hence the NSG was raised.
Another example would be the botched Munich Olympic rescue by the German Army. All hostages dead.

In CT operations (this i am getting from an IA Army major who has served with the NSG) everything is different . Including Sniper Training is different from Regular Mil Sniper Training. ANd it takes time to bring such troops up to speed.THese soldiers will have to unlearn most of what they already know and learn new skills to operate in a Urban CT/HR envoirment. It takes time.


You have rushed 250 men with less than 2 months of CT Training into operational mode. If an Incident were to occur not only could they get themselves killed they could get the hostages killed as well.

I hope this unit is not just for Vote Bank Politics. Its heavily diluted and doesnt serve the purpose. A Highly trained , equipped dedicated SWAT Type CT/HRT Unit. If you have to do something do it right. This just seems like a poor knee jerk reaction to me.

Rk.

May I amplify and thus clarify?

When the NSG hubs come into being, it does not mean that all are raw hands!

When a unit in a Regiment is raised, experienced hands form a large ‘nucleus’ and the others are inducted, but they are not totally untrained personnel! Therefore, while it is a new raising, it is not a totally at sea organisation!

CT/HR are not new phenomenon to the Army, let alone the SF. In Kashmir, it is not gung ho and hell for leather. It is CT and HR too! However, what could be new is aircraft and ship hijack. How long does that take to learn? As I have repeatedly mentioned that while to others, it may appear as ‘Fools rush in where angels fear to tread’, it is not so! There are SF units trained for just this task and that is why I speak of muddle headedness!

Bluestar was no big deal. It had to be done with kid gloves for obvious reasons. However, it did not turn out to the nation’s desire! That is a different thing.

It is not material what your Major friend may have said. I have from Maj Gens to Sepoys in the NSG with whom I have interacted. They are confident of delivering, but for the bureaucracy and CYA of those who head the organisation!

No, unless the hub personnel are trained totally, they will not be committed. At best, they would be rushed into localise the event. Till these hubs are operationally functional, they will not operate in a full scale!

The Govt is aware that a KG student cannot write a PhD.

It is just that the Nation does not share the view!

[Raja Bose]

rkhanna,

A correction. Munich operations the snipers (there were no assaulters) were all German police.
Also, GSG-9 draws its men from the border police so it is a civilian unit.
----

Ray sir,

Re. Bluestar I think rkhanna was referring to the problems 1 Para Cdo faced during initial assault due to lack of CQB skills. AFAIK that was one of the reasons for raising the NSG.

----

The Army SF can definitely act as a holding force till NSG arrive. I am sure they are reviewing the lessons they learnt from Mumbai when MARCOS went in. Being SF they are trained to learn fast and improvise as they go.

[Surya]

1. I am not sure what the SF could have done better in Blue Star - considering that they were going with one hand tied behind and the whole ops was dictated by political pressure.

2. Blue star cannot be compared with Black Thunder - the level of build up was different, the political situation was different etc. If the SF had been tasked to lay a siege during Blue Star then we might as have a better comparison

3. At the end of the day most of the NSG guys are staffed from SF - and a good number of NSG involved in Mumbai were deputed from SF -


The bigger question is the SF the same SF or now diluted because the rapid conversion of Para bns to SF - with diluted probation reuirements.

[mohan]

Thanks Gurus. I think I understand what RKhanna is concerned about, but RayC Sir's response confuses me but reassures me..

cheers!

[Raja Bose]

Surya,

At the level of small teams and individual capability, problems faced by 1 Para Cdo and SFF actually led to specific changes in tactics and specialized HR training doctrine when NSG and MARCOS were formed. This has nothing to do with laying sieges or the politics...I am simply referring to tactics and skills at the unit level. Prior to that our urban HR capability was quite rudimentary and moreover our SF ended up being used as infantry in Blue Star leading to heavy casualities in initial assaults. Buried somewhere in B-R you might also find a quote from the first D-G of NSG where he mentions that NSG had a different training regimen than the Army SF and how they stopped their initial practice of just borrowing Army SF to staff NSG ranks.

The dilution of our SF with all Para Bns getting converted en masse is worrying indeed. The scope of its effects are much larger than just staffing of CT hubs and will hurt our entire SF capability big time.

[Surya]

Raja - what problems with small teams or tactics?? any sources??

I will check too. I know the SF train for CT and hostage rescue - and I have seen their training facilities.

To the best of my knowledge it was the need to go in quickly , without returning fire to certain sections that limited the SF or any other unit in BlueStar. They did not have the luxury of sniping, laying seige, taking it section by section. Black Thunder had that luxury plus there was no Bhindranwale plus the politics had changed.

There was not much more they could have done with the conditions imposed on them - it was a terrible baptism for them.


As for the NSG not taking too many SF - not sure that works - a good number of the mumbai crowd was SF. So not too sure that was achieved or will be achieved.

[RayC]

I may mention that CQB is a part of normal infantry training.

Hand to hand combat is common in battle!

As far as the SF is concerned, it would be an error to believe that the turning of Paras to SF has in anyway diluted anything.

The Govt has to have a policy for actual SF activities before it is honed and practiced.

The whole SF concept is in a limbo in a practical sense!

The spirit is aflame. The flesh is weak!

[kobe]

for the arm chair field marshals

In Mumbai:
there were 10 heavily armed, trained, and motivated (by nothing less than 72 virgins) in three large buildings, were confronted by our NSG guards and guards suffered two fatalities and a few injuries before the pigs were either sent flying or sent burning...

In Oakland:
compare that with elite SWAT team with all the communications gear, telescopic laser sighted guns, and other gizmos going after one street thug. And three SWAT team members died before the thug was killed. (Which happened only yesterday)

Oakland SWAT operation

Moral of the story:
Even if NSG get the latest toys (and they should), its still the people and their training that counts the most.

[Mandeep]

Once surprise had been lost in Op Metal (the Army action in the Golden Temple Complex), there was really no point using the SF. They had no special superiority over the normal infantry that necessiated their use.

[KiranM]

Once surprise had been lost in Op Metal (the Army action in the Golden Temple Complex), there was really no point using the SF. They had no special superiority over the normal infantry that necessiated their use.

I am not privy to inside info, but I think the decision to use SF inspite of losing surprise (rather than normal infantry) is because of the comparatively greater fire discipline of SF vis a vis Conventional infantry. So that collateral damage could be reduced.

[RayC]

May I suggest that much that one would like to declare the SF, NSG etc etc Supermen, Batmen and Spidermen rolled in one, they are all but the same men who are also in the Infantry. The training is not much different, except that these specialised forces have greater finesse in additional skills.

As far as fire discipline is concerned, it is not only the SF, but anyone in uniform is trained in Fire Discipline and they respond to what is known as Fire Control!

If Surprise is lost, the consequence are the same!

[Raja Bose]

Surya,

What I was referring to is this:

The training is not much different, except that these specialised forces have greater finesse in additional skills.

Lot of men in NSG are from SF but what the ex-DG meant was that earlier they used to staff NSG with SF men without any significant special training (note that I had underlined 'just borrowing') but later they created their own training modules and criteria for intake. Anybody SF/non-SF who met those criteria are taken in. By most accounts, NSG is fairly good at upgrading their training as they go along and they will be more so after incidents such as Mumbai and Akshardham.

Some of the biggest problems SF faced during Bluestar involved neutralizing the crude but effective fortifications of the terrorists. As an example, they actually tried to launch CS gas canisters at the Akal Takht but got thwarted by the grills which resulted in the gas falling on the troops. Unlike the IA SF units, the NSG specializes in HR. Thats what it trains for day in and day out and according to some ex-members whether in NSG or in some of the other HRT type forces, it is honed to a choregraphy almost like a dance. For us novices it is sometimes hard to appreciate the nuances of such training but if it weren't so specialized there would have been no need to form separate units at all! If you ever get a chance, try to take a look at the NSG kill house and their target shooting simulators and compare it with that of the ones used by IA (I have seen the one in Belgaum)....you will start to notice the difference.

I am sure other IA units can do it with varying degrees of success (training is just one aspect) if push comes to shove however the NSG are the ones who are experts.

Mandeep is right, once surprise was lost SF is just infantry.

kobe,
That is the point I have yelled out many times when people compare NSG to various SWAT units. Regardless of what fancy gear you tote, in the end it is the man behind the machine who counts. However, that does not take away from the criminal neglect even our elite units suffer in terms of basic resources.

[Singha]

Which military unit is near Hebbal?

there is nothing south of hebbal. but there are mil camps on left side long
before one reaches the yelehanka runway.

[Ajay K]

Singha
Post subject: Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Which military unit is near Hebbal?

there is nothing south of hebbal. but there are mil camps on left side long
before one reaches the yelehanka runway.
Which military unit is near Hebbal?

there is nothing south of hebbal. but there are mil camps on left side long
before one reaches the yelehanka runway.

Exactly, I too have the same question.

[Surya]

Raja

But if the SF deputed to NSG pick up whatever variations and attitude are required then it means that it is not that big an issue.

But I agree that while they will have "capsules" of different courses - the focus\emphasis will be different things. But the SF trained for the Op metal - .

And regarding some of the problems you mention - well the NSG faced other problems - the flooding, heat throwing of TI etc.



BTW I now have the details of what Chidambaram is doing - suffice to say this is just an adhoc measure to stave off public pressure by moving the few people we have around. So we are going to pull them from X and deploy them at Y.

Anyway sad day in J&K - loss of a Major plus ORs -



The conversion of Para to SF is a dilution if the original probation requirements are not kept.

[kaangeya]

Re. Bluestar I think rkhanna was referring to the problems 1 Para Cdo faced during initial assault due to lack of CQB skills. AFAIK that was one of the reasons for raising the NSG.

Everyone forgets the uniqueness of Op Bluestar. In any CT/HR/Urban Op the objective is to rescue people and eliminate blue on blue or blue on white (innocents) casualties. But in Op Bluestar the objective was to "rescue and secure" (if my Sikh siblings will permit me the phrase) Harmandir Sahib intact. There is no SF that has ever been called to such a mission. Even in a hospital/home/school rescue the structure is of little or no importance. Of course to date we have not had a siege of the Louvre/Hermitage or the Vatican (and I hope it never happens). But in Op Bluestar the stakes were higher by several orders of magnitude. And in case we forget the men fought barefoot with socks at best. CQB tactics teach you to fight a human enemy, not to fire at him without hitting the structure he is hiding behind. In the end we did secure the mandir but at a terrible cost in lives and a considerable cost to the mandir itself, the Akal Takht, the steps, and several monuments within the mandir.

And one other thing. There seems to be a sense among many here that SF are the guys with the great skills while the non-SF are simply cannon fodder or fools and Col.Blimp clones. This is v.wrong and reflects a poor understanding of how the IA has been changing with the times. In any training cohort either among the subalterns or the men, there always are some better than the others, and some who are exceptional at battle tactics, leadership, strategy etc., The system is designed to identify such talent and nurture it, and use that talent to bring about gradual changes among the rest. The SF way isn't some esoteric or super-duper secret method to be used once in a while, nor is it even a grand strategic sword to be unsheathed in extreme situations. It is a superior way of achieving results, because remember it is not only officers but also the men. The Belgaum YO center is not the Para SF training center, which is an entirely different thing. And for the infantry officers for whom the YO commando course is compulsory, extreme battle isn't a new thing. Some of them make it to Belgaum after having been thru the thick of battle in SF like situations fighting terrorists.

[Raja Bose]

But if the SF deputed to NSG pick up whatever variations and attitude are required then it means that it is not that big an issue.
But I agree that while they will have "capsules" of different courses - the focus\emphasis will be different things.

Absolutely. Actually by virtue of their SF training, those personnel will pick up such skills even faster since they are taught to be innovative under stressful circumstances, are used to quite a bit of leeway in decision making etc. etc.. What I was getting at is that the training for SF and NSG is different enough to be quite distinct. It is just a question of who is tasked with what role and specialization. Nobody can be jack-of-all-trades as everybody is human onlee and can specialize in only a finite subset of skills and rigorously train for that.

But the SF trained for the Op metal - .

They did, esp. the SFF at their Chakrata base. A lot of lessons learned from what was missing or needed to be improved from that training were inculcated into the training doctrine of units like NSG.

And regarding some of the problems you mention - well the NSG faced other problems - the flooding, heat throwing of TI etc.

The problems with always be there whether it be due to equipment or new situations. That is why NSG constantly upgrades its training modules. Any CT/HR unit worth its salt does that otherwise they will be caught short. However, the acute problem for NSG has always been upgradation of equipment and that too in sufficient numbers. After all superior equipment does save lives in the end also.

BTW I now have the details of what Chidambaram is doing - suffice to say this is just an adhoc measure to stave off public pressure by moving the few people we have around. So we are going to pull them from X and deploy them at Y.

If that is true, that means our leaders are fit to rule Pakistan/Bangladesh.

[Raja Bose]

Everyone forgets the uniqueness of Op Bluestar. In any CT/HR/Urban Op the objective is to rescue people and eliminate blue on blue or blue on white (innocents) casualties. But in Op Bluestar the objective was to "rescue and secure" (if my Sikh siblings will permit me the phrase) Harmandir Sahib intact. There is no SF that has ever been called to such a mission. Even in a hospital/home/school rescue the structure is of little or no importance. Of course to date we have not had a siege of the Louvre/Hermitage or the Vatican (and I hope it never happens). But in Op Bluestar the stakes were higher by several orders of magnitude. And in case we forget the men fought barefoot with socks at best. CQB tactics teach you to fight a human enemy, not to fire at him without hitting the structure he is hiding behind. In the end we did secure the mandir but at a terrible cost in lives and a considerable cost to the mandir itself, the Akal Takht, the steps, and several monuments within the mandir.

I was referring to the initial incidents where the Para Cdos decided to take down the Akal Takht by assaulting via the Parikrama. Nobody is dissing the troops who fought during Op.Metal against such heavy odds. Clearly if the top brass is insisting that troops fight in socks and not fire in certain directions, it will cause a mess-up regardless of which unit is fighting, SF, non-SF, NSG or Superman! However, as with all such encounters it brought to light shortcomings or new requirements which were addressed by having dedicated HR units such as NSG which specialize in CT/HR missions. At one time or the other most countries have faced such situations, be it US, Germany, UK or Israel. Unfortunately the lessons from these situations are learnt in blood. That is why you will notice that there are now separate units for CT/HR in most well-trained militaries....it is not as if the regular SF is not up to the task, it is just a question of specialization and focus since so little has to go wrong in order to cause a catastrophe in such operations.

You bring up an interesting point, which is HR/CQB in religious sites, be it the Golden Temple or Akshardham. Unlike the West where blowing up a church due to a rescue operation would not cause a riot, in India it can blow up into communal riots. Such a situation is pretty unique to our region where tempers can be incited on such grounds. Hence, for most Western units the sanctity of the structure plays little/no importance. Western units are concerned of well-being in the following descending order of priority: (a) Their own men (b) Other men of their military (c) Civilians to be rescued (d) Civilian bystanders (e) Property/Structure etc. But that is not so for our CT/HR units. We saw it during Bluestar and we saw it during Akshardham...both cases it cost lives. Collateral damage (to property and civilians) is a big concern for IA whereas in the West it is mostly a fancy word. How to deal with such situations is inculcated in the training doctrine of our CT/HR units. Compare how our NSG fight versus the direct action methods of SAS....it is like comparing a ballet dancer to Jayalalitha amma!