Indian Army Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 May 2009 03:30

last few posts unrelated to Indian Army have been moved to trash.
a request : please use your sense to find relevant topics and don't increase admin workload unnecessarily with lazy posting.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 05 May 2009 10:42

An ugly incident......

Attack on army convoy near Coimbatore

http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/03/stories ... 370100.htm

Home minister's statement
http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/05/stories ... 471100.htm

Kritavarman · Post by **Kritavarman** » 05 May 2009 10:50

Attack on the Army convey can be counted among one those worst phase of Independent India, there should be urgent precautionary measures applied at state and central level, so that these kind of incident are not repeated elsewhere in India.

Peoples who are responsible for these attack, should be arrested and punished heavily. (Little more than banning such organization)

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 May 2009 11:15

Nothing will happen.

Only some hot air from Chidu and then the issue buried till it becomes a flame!

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 06 May 2009 23:39

Israeli elite unit officers in big Indian anti-terror exercise

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

May 6, 2009, 1:59 PM (GMT+02:00)

India's biggest ever counter-terror exercise took place this week on the plains of Punjab near the Pakistan border. DEBKAfile's military sources disclose that the three-day maneuver ending May 5 was staged by massed mechanized and parachute units of the elite Kharga Corps trained by Israel military instructors in India and Israel in the arts of operating in areas fought over by Taliban and al Qaeda, possibly even with biological or radiological weapons.

Dubbed "Hindi Shakti" (Indian Power), the drill testing this crack army corps' proactive operational strategy, used tanks, combat vehicles – some developed in Israel for striking terrorist targets in open land, artillery guns and a large number of parachutists. These crack Indian units received specialist instruction from Israeli elite and commando forces in tactics for pursuing combat operations behind enemy lines.

DEBKAfile notes that the Indian counter-terror exercise ended 24 hours before US president Barack Obama headed summit of the Pakistani and Afghani presidents, Ali Zardari and Hamid Karzai, at the White House on their combined strategies against the two terrorist organizations.

New Delhi's anti-terror exercise signaled the three leaders that, aside from the Americans, the only force capable of taking on Taliban and al Qaeda is India's elite army corps.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 07 May 2009 04:27

Here is the link to that article.

A Sharma wrote:From PIB

The Indian Army begins its major training exercise, aimed at validating and enhancing operational effectiveness of its premier corps, the KHARGA Corps. Codenamed Exercise HIND SHAKTI, it commenced yesterday in Punjab. The Exercise is being conducted as a two- sided exercise to practice the elite KHARGA Corps in their operational task. Army aims to validate its doctrine of proactive strategy through the Exercise.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 07 May 2009 04:29

Hind Shakti to fine tune proactive strategy: Army chief

Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor on Wednesday referred to the just concluded Hind Shakti war exercise as 'another step in army's continued endeavour to fine tune its proactive strategy.' The major 72-hour training exercise concluded in the plains of Punjab today.

Hind Shakti is the Indian army's seventh major exercise since it unveiled its proactive Cold Start battle strategy in 2004.

The strategy envisages a series of lighting armored thrusts across the border without waiting for a full scale war mobilisation.

The army's premier strike corps, the Ambala based II Corps practiced offensive manoeuvres and a blitzkrieg-type armored incursion by Mechanised and Re-organised Plains Infantry Division, emphasising rapid penetration into enemy territory.

The Exercise included effective offensive support by air power and attack helicopters. Corps units were also tested for their ability to undertake and sustain operational manoeuvres against intensive electronic and information warfare.

The condensed exercise was conducted over three days and nights. 'Blue Land' troops achieved battlefield transparency gaining knowledge of enemy deployment through sustained and constant surveillance of the battle space.

They were constantly aided by satellite imagery, helicopter borne surveillance systems, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) and ground-based surveillance resources such as Long Range Recce and observation system (LORROS), Battle field surveillance Radars (BFSRs) and Weapon Locating Radars (WLRs) apart from the human intelligence. With greater situational awareness achieved, the manoeuvres were performed through air craft borne, heliborne and ground troops.

During the course of the exercise, the operational efficiency of the most potent force of Indian Army was put to test in war like conditions. Army successfully validated the capability of the corps (also called 'Kharga Corps' for its emblem, Durga's sword) in network centric warfare, as also in a nuclear-biological-chemical warfare environment.

Lt Gen TK Sapru, GOC-in-C Western Command also witnessed the exercise.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 May 2009 08:58

These crack Indian units received specialist instruction from Israeli elite and commando forces in tactics for pursuing combat operations behind enemy lines.

wow...is this true?

Enough a rumor of such sorts(YYY conspiracy) is enough to send the Paki Crore-commanders cowering in dark corners.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 07 May 2009 10:17

My thoughts below are without prejudice against Israel. I appreciate the need to collaborate with them wherever we need them and vice-versa.

But supposedly Debka is not known for being right always. Mr. Ravi Rikhye has written about this in www.orbat.com and has commented on how Debka tends to either get into hyperbole or ends up with news planted in it or worse. I don't remember the issues where he commented but I have noticed this a couple of times.

As for the news item, it seems to come across as if without Israelis we were floundering around and only now have learnt how to operate behind enemy lines! I was thinking that maybe after goofing around and at making a fool of themselves in Lebanon earlier and Gaza etc, Israelis would be in the mode to learn from others as well!

Cheers

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 May 2009 11:19

Valid points, sir....

It is always a game of give and take and Debka isnt the most accurate reporter out there...

Btw, on the day the Paki pig was paraded at a press conference( 2 weeks back??), there were reports of 3-4 encounters still raging. any news on those?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 07 May 2009 16:51

Debka isnt the most accurate reporter out there...

Debka is more akin to a broken clock. It is only accurate twice a day.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 May 2009 19:33

To be honest, Debka is more like an intelligence agency, you get loads of crap/disinfo but there are nuggets that should be picked up.

Debka has been right about numerous things such as the GCC - India security pact.

Also Debka is the official propaganda/disinfo news agency for the Israeli intel, so need to read between the lines and caution when reading debka.

Has there been any picture releases by MOD on the exercises like there have been with others?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 May 2009 22:58

images @ livefist.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/05/ph ... corps.html

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 08 May 2009 02:58

Army's nuclear, bio, chemical warfare exercise concludes

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 08 May 2009 04:36

Army plans to recruit Nepal Gorkhas hit

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 May 2009 01:45

Paging Brigadier Ray, Aspuar and Mandeep

This is utter tripe and gibberish (if true) kindly bring this to the notice of concerned authorities in IA and GOI (if possible).

‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’

RSS and the Indian establishment
The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get influenced.

Is the Indian army a sacred cow?

The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army, they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing to give them a lot of leeway.

Even if she is alluding to Malegaon blasts she should know that case is still in court and Col Purohit according to IPC is INNOCENT until proven otherwise.Hence her allegation is baseless and false .

Kindly do the needful.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 May 2009 02:09

^^

Its only India in which people who are so full as BS as her can be given celebrity status.You ask to bring this BS to notice of authorities. While your intentions are noble and I share you anger, what do you expect will happen? If this had been a self respecting nation, people like her would be blown to smithereens by general public and media. What exactly is she trying to achieve by making such statements in Pakistan?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 09 May 2009 02:15

Parijat Gaur wrote:^^ Its only India in which people who are so full as BS as her can be given celebrity status.You ask to bring this BS to notice of authorities. While your intentions are noble and I share you anger, what do you expect will happen? If this had been a self respecting nation, people like her would be blown to smithereens by general public and media.

Parijat Gaur-saar
There is a difference between dissent and libel. We, as Indians, tolerate dissent. You (and I) are free to go on the road and protest dams, nuclear testing and India's foreign policy. That is okay, this is a free country and anyone can speak their mind.

Miss Suzanne Roy has now crossed a boundary and made a specific allegation without any basis in reality and needs to get a nice slap across her face. While you are right in not giving her any (undeserved) publicity, because of the (unfortunate) way the world runs, if her drivel is not countered, there is a danger of it becoming part of the accepted wisdom.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 May 2009 02:34

Ms. Roy believes in the "we are all brothers, so lets all make love not war" line of thinking. And by the way we are "all" not brothers - you have to exclude the corporations, who are the enemies. She lives in her own cuckoo-land utopia. Plus she needs the attention since the "God of Small Things" is in the distant past. I'd say ignore her rants.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 May 2009 02:46

On a different topic, I read this paper on the Cold Start doctrine.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Ladwig, ... 0Paper.pdf

As expected from most Western authors, there is some blathering (especially the last chapter) on why this is all a bad idea. But setting that aside, it does point out a few major stumbling blocks to our ability to actually employ this doctrine:

a) Lack of offensive firepower: artillery and tanks

b) Lack of close air support

c) Lack of buy-in from the IAF - a.k.a the "Cold Start" is an army only strategy

These criticisms do seem very valid. I'd also go out on a limb and say that (a) above was one of the main reasons why the IA was "not ready" for retaliatory action post 26/11. If the Cold Start was to actually execute a limited-war in response to terrorist attacks, then 26/11 was the perfect opportunity to put this into practice. But, we all know what happened in reality.

Of course, it is quite possible that there was no response to 26/11 because of our weak-kneed UPA govt, but I suspect that the IA was not ready either.

Thoughts/criticisms?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 09 May 2009 02:59

I see all of you have dismissed this RSS Claim of Ms Roy without a further thought. Yet nobody ponders the ramifications of such a thing if it were true. RSS/Hindutva has been on the rise through out the country in various forms. Gurjat , Malgoan , Orrisa , Banglore Incident , MNS , Shiv Sena ,etc. Do keep in mind that the armed forces are after all a cross section of Society in general.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 09 May 2009 04:10

rkhanna wrote:I see all of you have dismissed this RSS Claim of Ms Roy without a further thought. Yet nobody ponders the ramifications of such a thing if it were true. RSS/Hindutva has been on the rise through out the country in various forms. Gurjat , Malgoan , Orrisa , Banglore Incident , MNS , Shiv Sena ,etc. Do keep in mind that the armed forces are after all a cross section of Society in general.

rkhanna-ji,
If radicalization of any particular community is considered then why leave out sections of other communities who might try to infiltrate IA to push their agenda?? certainly RSS would not be the first organization to think about it

. I understand your concern ... I may be wrong, but I believe that this topic had been raised a couple of months back on this very thread. Since Miss. Unmentionable takes liberties accusing IA, burden of proof lies with her

. Only thing we can even think of is Col. Purohit ... as of now even that is not PROVEN. And If that is the standard used to accuse IA by her then no army nay no country has to be spared

. So I say screw Ms. Lahori Logic. The lady has little credibility left in her criticism.

Ofcourse IA has also been criticized heavily for Kashmir COIN ops. But IA over time learned how to deal with it very admirably. FWIW, I do believe it was the Indian Army's intervention which bought peace to Gujrat. Yes, I guess we all know that in case of minorities in IA, Sikhs are over-represented (absolutely nothing wrong with that), muslims are under-represented but then so are kannadigas

. 60+ years on ....yes we do not have a indian muslim regiment ......do we really need one on basis of religion?? You and I know, muslims unlike sikhs are not classified as a martial race. From what I have seen in my short life (I am 27 you see) so far it is Paki propagandu to make it look Indians are a HINDU army (and unfortunately WKKs have bought it) But then again hindus are majority in india

.

JMT

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 May 2009 07:39

^^ Couldn't have put it better myself. Also another reason why I instantly dismissed Roy's claim is that I have personally met Muslim officers in IA. And even though they are in short numbers, I assure you that there is no bias against them.
People thrust forward Col Purohit's name when they want to prove RSS influence in IA. But if all secluded incidents like that were to be considered, even Islamic terrorists should have a great influence in IA for it was only recently that an IA soldier had defected to terrorists. So what now? Are we to say that Hizbul Mujaheddin has infiltrated IA?
IA is one of the few institutions left in India which has risen above caste and religion. So if someone alleges such preposterous allegations, one should better back it up with some serious proof. But Ms Roy seems to be just conjuring allegations out of her hat. Hence the anger.

PS: Anujan, there is hardly any need to call me saar.

I think that the title is undeserved at my age and level of experience.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 09 May 2009 21:39

Indian Army summit Dhaulagiri

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 13 May 2009 13:37

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... d87bd90a2f

I thought this was the appropriate place for posting this. I am really sorry if this is the wrong forum or this is the wrong way to post it.

What do you people think? Is the commando training really "too tough" or are our policemen not upto the mark?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 00:21

Cross posting from SF forum. An interesting blog read which sheds more light on the Kupwara encounter where we lost many of our SF. This is the first time I am hearing about "Headlines Today": does anyone know more about them or this author?

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=41725

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 May 2009 01:51

They are the India Today group's English TV channel. Actually the article doesn't provide any new details but good to see our usual DDM caring a bit about our soldiers.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 02:23

The details of how the terrorists got lucky due to the guide losing his way, the air-dropping behind enemy lines, how the SF got spotted during the air-drop etc were all new, at least to me. I havent seen these details in any other news report.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 14 May 2009 03:12

atreya wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... d87bd90a2f

I thought this was the appropriate place for posting this. I am really sorry if this is the wrong forum or this is the wrong way to post it.

What do you people think? Is the commando training really "too tough" or are our policemen not upto the mark?

Not the right place but I am not surprised. Way back in 1989 when the punjab police commandos were raised almost 70% of them were fresh recruits rather than existing police. Interestingly almost 60% of the sportsmen representing Punjab Police were from the commando units.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 14 May 2009 05:25

Interesting that the latest exercise took place in Punjab. Mostly, the 'Shakti' series of exercises have been held in North Rajasthan.

One component of the Cold Start doctrine was to have been the 8 Independent Battle Groups. No details have been forthcoming, but if we consider that all of these exercises have consistently involved Strike Corps + formations, does this indicate that the concept has been modified to work with a strike corps as its core formation?

Also, what exactly were the Israelis helping with?

One tantalizing alternative - maybe this particular exercise is not about Cold Start. Maybe it is to practice some other contingencies that may involve a multinational force going in rapidly to secure some, ahem, object-ives.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 May 2009 07:04

Simplistically put, the Cold Start doctrine gives shallow bridgeheads and through one of which the Strike Corps shall debouch once they have totally mobilised and come in.

The Cold Start Doctrine was basically to offset Pakistan's advantage of having the initiative, their Cantts being close to the border while the IA had a long mobilisation period wherein it took too long for the Strike Corps to come into effect.

This Doctrine ensures that Pakistan does not have the initiative and thereafter all things are equal!

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 May 2009 07:13

No thinning of troops by Pakistan: Indian Army

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 May 2009 09:30

Prem Kumar wrote:Cross posting from SF forum. An interesting blog read which sheds more light on the Kupwara encounter where we lost many of our SF. This is the first time I am hearing about "Headlines Today": does anyone know more about them or this author?

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=41725

The next morning over a dozen army teams fanned out. They hunted the terrorists, killing 25 in all, over the next 10 days. Six terrorists were killed in an avalanche but so were eight soldiers.

So we lost eight Army men other than our 8-10 1 Para SF men?

Thats a huge toll to gun down 30 pigs, nearly 1:1.5 ratio!!!!!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 May 2009 11:06

While it is disconcerting that one loses one's men in an operation and after op post mortem throws up how it could have been avoided, yet one takes it in one's stride, learns the lessons and gets more focussed and determined.

In terrain like the Shamshabari and Gurez, which is very difficult, losses of life is possible. One of the reasons why the terrorists were better placed was that they had Gujjar guides who know the terrain like the back of their palms and know where to hide and where to expose. They have lived their whole lives in these mountains herding the flock. They have their dhoks on top and so are well conversant with the terrain. The IA units, on the other hand, are there for three years at most. It is not enough to know every nook and cranny of the terrain. Yet, at the same time, no SF person will let go of an opportunity to go for the jugular. Therefore, that is one of the reasons why the losses appear unacceptable.

As far as avalanches go, it does not differentiate friend and foe!

Sawant, in journalistic enthusiasm compares the terrain with Kargil. He was on NH1A and so he would not know the glaciated areas of Kargil. I wonder if he could last if he went to Bimbat or 5109! On foot, that is!

I have seen these sectors mentioned on foot!

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 14 May 2009 19:40

ssmitra wrote:
atreya wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... d87bd90a2f

I thought this was the appropriate place for posting this. I am really sorry if this is the wrong forum or this is the wrong way to post it.

What do you people think? Is the commando training really "too tough" or are our policemen not upto the mark?
Not the right place but I am not surprised. Way back in 1989 when the punjab police commandos were raised almost 70% of them were fresh recruits rather than existing police. Interestingly almost 60% of the sportsmen representing Punjab Police were from the commando units.

I once again apologize for posting it here.

So , dont you think that the commando training should be different for police and the army? After all, both operate in different operational settings. So there should be a difference in the the training of the police commando and the army commando. What do others feel about this?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 May 2009 21:45

RayC wrote:Simplistically put, the Cold Start doctrine gives shallow bridgeheads and through one of which the Strike Corps shall debouch once they have totally mobilised and come in.

The Cold Start Doctrine was basically to offset Pakistan's advantage of having the initiative, their Cantts being close to the border while the IA had a long mobilisation period wherein it took too long for the Strike Corps to come into effect.

This Doctrine ensures that Pakistan does not have the initiative and thereafter all things are equal!

maybe i missed something, but woudln't their cantts come under heavy air assault early on?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 May 2009 21:53

Lalmohan wrote:
RayC wrote:Simplistically put, the Cold Start doctrine gives shallow bridgeheads and through one of which the Strike Corps shall debouch once they have totally mobilised and come in.

The Cold Start Doctrine was basically to offset Pakistan's advantage of having the initiative, their Cantts being close to the border while the IA had a long mobilisation period wherein it took too long for the Strike Corps to come into effect.

This Doctrine ensures that Pakistan does not have the initiative and thereafter all things are equal!
maybe i missed something, but woudln't their cantts come under heavy air assault early on?

IIRC, the IAF has always maintained that it will need atleast 3-7 days to neutralize PAF and thus during those days, might not be able to help IA much.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 23:47

The IAF stance is understandable. Also explains why the IA wants its own Air brigades. Cant wait for the day when LCHs enter service in large numbers.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 May 2009 02:08

^^^ air assault could also come from brahmos and perhaps prithvi

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 May 2009 03:20

RayC, Please take a look at this USWAR college monograph on Strategic Shock vs Strategic Surprise and comment on Kargil from this point of view. Thanks, ramana

A 50 page pdf on Known Unknowns from US War College.

And pass it on to any who might be interested.