Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jun 2009 09:31

arun wrote:Spot the difference between the Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Pakistani variant of the Islamic terrorist group, the Taliban.

Pakistani State, or whatever goes under that tag, has killed dozens of times more non-combatants (a.k.a. civilians) than caused by the drones. And, yet, the Pakistanis want to stop the US drone attacks or take control of the US drones because they don't want the drones to eliminate their faithful supporters.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jun 2009 09:58

Pakistan briefs India on progress in the 26/11 probe

That's it. Now, peace talks can re-start, if not already started, as GoI can claim that Pakistan was making progress in the 26/11 case.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 14 Jun 2009 10:02

That saar was a forgone conclusion onlee.
This dramebaazi of them breifing Delhi is only because a Democratic gov is in 'power' in Pakistan. when there is a military CMLA in power, such niceties are not resorted to, making things simpler.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Jun 2009 11:44

http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2729014
The Canberra Times - Friday 31 October 1947

FREE PAKISTAN ARMY ADVANCING TOWARDS CAPITAL OF SRINAGAR

NEW DELHI, Thursday- With the issue of peace or war between the Dominions of India and Pakistan still in the balance, reports from Karachi reveal that the 10,000 Pathan and Moslem forces of the Free Kashmir Movement have advanced to within 10 miles of Srinagar. According to the Lahore correspondent of the "Daily Telegraph", the Governor-General of India (Earl Mountbatten), is using all remaining influence to bring about peace talks, but Pakistan's failure to reach any definite decision about sending troops to Kashmir or calling off the invading tribesmen and withdrawing covert support for them has produced tension.

A spokesman' for the Pakistan Government bluntly told Reuters correspondent that Pakistan would refuse to accept Kashmir's accession to India and the accession might prove a threat to world peace. The "Daily Telegraph" correspondent at New Delhi says that free troops, who are well disciplined and equipped with field artillery, are driving back the small Indian force defending Srinagar. Every available aircraft is being used to fly in reinforcements from India.

In a dispatch from Srinagar "The Times" correspondent says that the rebel force has been reinforced by several thousand Moslem peasants and numbers about 10,000. The defending force comprises about 1,000 Kashmir State troops and two companies of Sikhs. Indian troops are just beginning to arrive by air and the Indian Government intends to send more, but the question is whether or not they will arrive in time the save the city.

The correspondent says that the Free Kashmir troops are advancing on Srinagar in a three pronged drive from the west and north-west and are gravely menacing the capital. Earlier, the leader of the Kashmir Congress Party (Sheikh Abdullah), who, although a Moslem, has been asked by the Maharajah (Sir Hari Singh) to form an interim Government, claimed that Indian troops had hit back at the Invaders, about 26 miles west of Srinagar, driving the raiders ahead of them. He added that the raiders were mostly Pakistan troops in civilian dress. They were first-class marksmen, but hardly a match for the trained Indians.

Abdullah said the Interim Government, which he would lead, would extend over Kashmir and Jammu a plebiscite to determine Kashmir's accession to India would be held as soon as possible, and he would not object to India and Pakistan jointly supervising the plebiscite.

While revolutionaries at one point reached to within 10 miles of the capital, two Sikh companies, comprising the city's main western defence, were forced to retire from Baramulah, 40 miles west, to hurriedly prepared defence 20 miles from the capital.

The New Delhi correspondent of the "Daily Mail" says the Indian Government has transferred nearly all mercy planes from the task of evacuating refugees to flying reinforcements to Kashmir. Most of these planes are piloted by Britons and Australians, and the Pakistan Government has protested that such a military use of commercial planes is against international law. The Government of India has ordered all Indian Commercial Airlines to go to Delhi immediately says Reuters correspondent at Bombay.

The Kashmir proposal to accede to India and the sending of Indian troops represented an attempt to encircle Pakistan, said Quaiyum Khan, Premier of tho North-West Frontier Province. Pathans are determined to fight to the last man, rather than allow the taking over of Kashmir, which is a Moslem-majority State, belonginig to Pakistan as a matter of right" Khan added.

He appealed to Afghanistan, Persia, Turkey and Governments associated with the Arab League to prepare to face the new danger"

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 14 Jun 2009 11:47

Every news cast is starting with TS Pakistan war, Khabar ya Kabristan?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2009 12:05

they are said to have cornered biatullah mehsud and split the talibs into four actions

I have a feeling 'victory' is very near after which PA will motor back to their cantonments and taleebs
can emerge from the woodwork again.

whatever be the machinations of Chinkil, it is quite clear unless they deploy a expeditionary army
on pakistani soil of very large number and ferocity, the PA/Elites cannot deliver what they want and
cannot keep the chariot running in the direction desired....add to that US wants in one direction and
china in another and the 'horses' each on its own vector

let them keep wasting their time and money, we need to sit tight, make no concessions and
let time and gravity take care of the issues.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Jun 2009 12:18

Today’s demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan. An IED Mubarak in Dera Ismail Khan:

AP NewsAlert
18 minutes ago

DERA ISMAIL KHAN, Pakistan (AP) — Police say bomb blast rips through market in northwest Pakistani city, wounding 20.

AP

Added Later.....................

Pakistan’s GEO TV is reporting that the above demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan has resulted in casualities:

DIK blast kills 8, injures 15

Updated at: 1243 PST, Sunday, June 14, 2009

DERA ISMAIL KHAN: At least eight people were killed and 15 injured in Tijarat Ganj Market area of Dera Ismail Khan, police sources told Geo News Sunday. ……………………

GEO TV

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jun 2009 12:25

Imran.Pak committing suicide.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 493667.ece

Imran Khan warns of Pakistan’s ‘suicide’Christina Lamb
Pakistan's military offensive against the Taliban will backfire and fuel more extremism and bomb attacks, the cricketer-turned-politician Imran Khan warned last week.

“I have never been so depressed in my life,” he said. “Pakistan is on a suicidal course.”

Khan was speaking in London, where he was visiting his two sons by his ex-wife Jemima before heading to America to raise funds for refugees displaced by the fighting.

The 56-year-old leader of Pakistan’s Movement for Justice party has been branded pro-Taliban for speaking out against the military operation, which has driven 2.5m people from their homes.

“I’m not pro-Taliban,” he said. “But my point is: shouldn’t we have looked at other options? How do you justify using heavy artillery, helicopter gunships and F-16 fighter-jets in civilian areas? Who in the world does this? Meanwhile all the top Taliban leadership have escaped. It’s so inhuman, what they have done; it will backfire.”

Khan pointed out that the launch of the operation coincided with President Asif Ali Zardari’s visit to Washington in late April, after which the US agreed a five-year deal worth $1.5 billion (£910m) a year. “Was this operation to save the people of Swat or to get dollars from the Americans?” he asked.

“Only 10 days earlier, Parliament had passed a resolution endorsing a peace deal in Swat with the Taliban. Why was there no discussion? A military operation should have been the last resort.”

Khan insisted that Pakistan would never contain extremism as long as American troops remained across the border in Afghanistan. “Hatred of America is much more than of the Taliban,” he said.

The first European Union-Pakistan summit will be held in Brussels this week at which Zardari will call for more aid for the refugee crisis.

“How do we look after these refugees?” Khan asked. “Already you see the anger. This is a very sorry chapter in Pakistan's history.”

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 14 Jun 2009 12:33

Man, Pakistan is a truly Fcuked up country.

I can understand them releasing Hafiz Sayeed, to cock a snook at india / sheer hatred for India. But why the phuk did they allow the Lal Masjid Badshah Maulanar Abdul Aziz Ghazi out? This cretin, even they know is bad news for their country, yet no one has the balls to say so. He can conveniently go back to his fiery ways of yore.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Jun 2009 12:50

Philip wrote:Imran.Pak committing suicide.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 493667.ece

Imran Khan warns of Pakistan’s ‘suicide’
Christina Lamb

“ .................. How do you justify using heavy artillery, helicopter gunships and F-16 fighter-jets in civilian areas? Who in the world does this? .............”

How do you indeed.

I have always been perplexed as to how the tactics of an occupying foreign armed force of applying disproportionate force comes so naturally to the armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan gives scant consideration to the notion that when dealing with its own populace the degree of force needs to be carefully calibrated to limit collateral damage.

What drives this disregard for the need to preserve the lives of its own civilian population in a conflict zone

:

1.. A Punjabi dominated Armed Forces contempt for the Pukhtun?
2.. An attempt by the armed forces to imitate US tactics?
3.. Something altogether different?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 14 Jun 2009 12:54

p_saggu

Bcos these oiseaules are more "Islamic" than Kiyani. And they say it with confidence. And the military cannot rebut that because their motto is Jihad fi Sabilillah. And the only ones doing a jihad now are those whom the military is bombing. And the people know that, in their heart of hearts. They know that their Islam says pretty much everything that the mullahs says it does -especiall since they cannot avoid following the hadiths and the actions of the rightly guided caliphs. The Mullahs are, in that sense, far more honest and upright than the military establishment - which is in it for the money, after which they will move out of the country. And the people know that too. So how can their hearts beat for the military? And how can the military itself be united over this? The monies go only to a select few. To the rest go the wrath of the Talibs.

The RAPE are responsible. They essentially have a "prostitute for auction" state mentality. Open legs for the highest bidder, a unique twist on traditional whoring. But they were being too clever by half, thinking that, at the same time, they could run their own second-rate semi-literate strategic policy without much in the way of a backlash, and a sophisticated one at that. That is why they are thrashing about now, bombing their own people at the behest of a power whom they uniformly hate. And they are begging this power to give them the drone capability to kill their own people. And the Americans are refusing, saying no, kill them with aerial bombardbment and hand-to-hand. Get the irony of that. And we say the Americans have no subtlety?

Only one real solution for the Pakjabi RAPE - CONVERT. Now while you have a chance. Christianity or Hinduism or Atheism - your choice. Or maybe take a sideways step to Shiism - at least they have both balls and common sense, and will prove a more worthwhile challenge.

Or you can always pretend to be secular for a while longer.... not much though. As Justin Timberlake recently said, what goes around comes around

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 14 Jun 2009 12:58

How do you justify using heavy artillery, helicopter gunships and F-16 fighter-jets in civilian areas? Who in the world does this?

So much nautanki - so little time. Isn't this exactly what the TSPA has been doing in Balochistan for a while now.

Of course, this is also the same army that killed 3 million of it own people and generated 12 million refugees - just 'cos the army and west Pakistanis (like Imran) did not like the way, the East Pakistanis voted. Recently, these same low-lifes asked the BD government to "move-on" when the question of punishing the perpetrators of genocide came up.

Of course all this has happened during the life-time of Imran, the jihad-e-Kashmir supporter

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 14 Jun 2009 13:08

The wheels are really coming off this country ........

Dera Ismail Khan (Pakistan): Eight people are feared dead and 20 injured in a bomb blast at a market in a Northwest Pakistani city on Sunday, confirmed local police chief Mohammad Iqbal.

The explosion occurred in Dera Ismail Khan, a rough and tumble town not far from Pakistan's tribal belt.

Government official Mohsin Shah said the blast appeared to have been caused by a planted explosive device.

However, police officer Bahawal Khan said that it was not clear if a suicide bomber was involved. A police checkpoint was also nearby.

The explosion came as intelligence officials confirmed a suspected US missile had killed five people in the adjacent South Waziristan tribal region.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/blast-in-nwf ... 880-2.html

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Jun 2009 13:12

It is ironic and a vindication of much of India's position. Although the GOI and MMS have never gloated, what must the Pakis think of the dirty Hindus exposing their donkey teeth and braying in laughter.

Now if you will excuse me I have to practice my braying.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 14 Jun 2009 13:21

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_us ... or_1264725

New York: US and Italian authorities have arrested a group of hackers and five Pakistani co-conspirators who stole from phone companies around the world to fund Islamic terrorist activities in South Asia......

Meanwhile, Italian officials working closely with their US counterparts said in a press conference that the proceeds from the group's telephone scam funded Islamic fundamentalist groups in South Asia. Even as the indictments were being reeled off in the US, Italian police swooped down on five Pakistanis in dawn raids on phone service operators in Italy. They allegedly bought the stolen telephone lines and paid the hackers to break into phone systems in the US, Australia, Canada and Europe.....

The Wall Street Journal reported that among the five arrested in Italy were a husband-and-wife team who managed call centres in Brescia, Italy-- Mohammad Zamir and Shabina Kanwal. Pakistani conspirators, including the owner of Madina, allegedly sold services from phone lines that were stolen and used the funds to support terrorist activities, according to Italian authorities. According to legal documents, the bulk of the telephone traffic routed through the hacked lines was destined for Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt and India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jun 2009 14:13

Acharya wrote:
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2729014

Thanks for posting.

The plebiscite word occurs on 31 Oct 1947 itself.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Jun 2009 14:22

RajeshA, rkiranr, others thank you for responding to my question -- so the theory is that the war in Pakistan is a proxy war between US and <some other>, where <some other> is one or an opportunistic alliance of many.

This to my mind this explanation is probably the closest to truth. However --

The question is that at least on BRF one side of this war is clearly seen, wiz the US of A. The question remains -- who is on the other side? We really havent seen so far who are the real backers (economically, military and politically) of the other faction? Whats the route of money and weapons? That will tell us a lot.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Jun 2009 14:31

JE Menon wrote:The RAPE are responsible. They essentially have a "prostitute for auction" state mentality. Open legs for the highest bidder, a unique twist on traditional whoring. But they were being too clever by half, thinking that, at the same time, they could run their own second-rate semi-literate strategic policy without much in the way of a backlash, and a sophisticated one at that.

Yes, the Islamic Whore has 3½ 'Friends', but only 3 holes! Simply FUBAR!

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 14 Jun 2009 15:57

Bomb Attack in Pakistan Kills 8

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: June 14, 2009

Filed at 4:55 a.m. ET

DERA ISMAIL KHAN, Pakistan (AP) -- A suspected U.S. missile strike killed at least five people Sunday in a tribal region where Pakistan's top Taliban commander is based, intelligence officials said, breaking a lull in such attacks and posing a test for growing anti-Taliban sentiment in the country.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 14 Jun 2009 16:18

Dear admins,Mods
I believe the quality of the tsp thread (one of the most popular in brf) is degrading day by day , as more abusive language for pakistan is being used and analysis of reports is decreasing ,adding more rubbish in this thread.
If this is untrue delete my post or please try to have some order.
Abusing pakistanis should be confined to benis thread.
tsp thread only for analysis of events .

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Jun 2009 16:29

^^^^

I guess, that impression arises, because it becomes more difficult by the day to overlook the similarities between the psyche and behavior of TSP and the world's oldest profession. BRFites are having a difficult time suppressing this wisdom and insight!

2.5 million IDPs in Pakistan have a right to know, why they are IDPs!

archan · Post by **archan** » 14 Jun 2009 16:54

Samay wrote:Dear admins,Mods
Abusing pakistanis should be confined to benis thread.

How dare you....! if you use abusive language in that thread, there is only one result.... halal. That thread is only for positive news about the land of the pure.
As for the comparison with the world's oldest profession here, would you rather prefer the word prostitute? ok bhai log, from now on prostitute it is.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Jun 2009 16:56

shiv wrote:The plebiscite word occurs on 31 Oct 1947 itself.

And, per the news article, by Sheikh Abdullah.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Jun 2009 17:02

Wet, Wet Towel

Sunday, June 14, 2009
Masood Hasan

The Pakistani nation is guilty on many counts. Almost without exception the entire nation thrives on lies, from left to right and top to bottom. There is literally no one who is prepared to play it straight. From the people at the top of the pinnacle to the lowest rung, everyone is out to screw everyone else. It is now deeply embedded in our psyche and it courses through our veins like blood. Everyone is tainted without exception. This may explain why ministers are caught either smuggling prohibited items, sexually assaulting anyone who should fall into their trap or cheating at an examination to pass a test. When caught, if ever, there is hardly ever any remorse, shame or a sense of wretchedness. It is almost a given that this is the norm and this is acceptable behaviour. As and when some accountability is demanded more by the media than the guilty party’s peers, succour is always at hand.

For years we have see-sawed about la enfant terrible of Pakistan cricket, the stupid hick from Rawalpindi yet again and again, he has been let off in moves that defy all bounds of reason.

All this self-flagelation because the author is peeved off with insufficient electricity supply. Go figure!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Jun 2009 17:30

anupmisra wrote:
shiv wrote:The plebiscite word occurs on 31 Oct 1947 itself.
And, per the news article, by Sheikh Abdullah.

Mountbatten... June 1947

Interestingly, the idea of accession of the State on the basis of the wishes of the people would appear to have originated from Lord Louis Mountbatten, the Viceroy of undivided India. During his visit to Srinagar in the last week of June he had “exerted his whole influence to prevent [the Maharaja] from acceding to one Dominion or the other without taking steps to ascertain the will of the people by referendum, plebiscite, election, or even, if these were impracticable, by representative public meetings”. The idea was, no doubt, impracticable but Mountbatten was, perhaps, able to sell this to the Indian leadership by emphasising its high moral value content.

Shaikh Abdullah told Mountbatten, “I have been thinking Lord Mountbatten about the suggestion you made to me, when I had dinner with you in October that Kashmir should stand independent but have close relations with India and Pakistan. Do you still think independence is feasible.” Mountbaten’s reply was “I am afraid true independence is not feasible. But I am trying to expand the Joint Defence Council and through it Kashmir can be dealt with as a state acceding to both dominions rather than to only one.”

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 14 Jun 2009 17:37

JE Menon wrote:Bcos these oiseaules are more "Islamic" than Kiyani. And they say it with confidence. And the military cannot rebut that because their motto is Jihad fi Sabilillah. And the only ones doing a jihad now are those whom the military is bombing. And the people know that, in their heart of hearts. They know that their Islam says pretty much everything that the mullahs says it does -especiall since they cannot avoid following the hadiths and the actions of the rightly guided caliphs. The Mullahs are, in that sense, far more honest and upright than the military establishment - which is in it for the money, after which they will move out of the country. And the people know that too. So how can their hearts beat for the military? And how can the military itself be united over this? The monies go only to a select few. To the rest go the wrath of the Talibs.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Jun 2009 17:41

And the western propaganda, then as now, was relentless. Note how Time claimed that the "unacceptable" Plebiscite terms were Nehru's rather than the UN's

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 70,00.html

A Matter of Morals
Monday, Sep. 04, 1950

The pandit was annoyed at Dixon's proposal that Kashmir be partitioned and announced it was "absolutely impossible" for the government of India to accept the mediator's recommendation that the famed Vale of Kashmir, strategic heart of the state, be placed under U.N. rule for a plebiscite to determine whether its population wished to join India or Pakistan.

Nehru was prepared to agree to a statewide plebiscite in Kashmir—on terms obviously unacceptable to Pakistan. Among the terms: withdrawal of all Pakistani troops, while Indian troops remained. Furthermore, said Nehru, Pakistan should have "no say in a plebiscite which is a matter between the Indian people of Kashmir and the United Nations, although [Pakistan] might have an interest in the matter."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -2,00.html

India Grabs It
Monday, Feb. 04, 1957

Menon's pettishness did nothing to help India's case. "People here," said a Canadian delegate, "are not so much pro-Pakistan or pro-India as they are anti-Menon. Every time he opens his mouth, people want to vote against him." In the roll call that followed Menon's speech, this desire was freely indulged. By a vote of 10-0 (with Russia abstaining), the Security Council for the fifth time called for a plebiscite in Kashmir, and challenged the right of Kashmir's puppet assembly to unite the state with India. Indians were disappointed by Russia's abstention, after Khrushchev had noisily proclaimed India's right to Kashmir—but after all. Russia is currently trying to win Moslem friends in the Middle East. "I Am Pained." Consoling as the moral victory was to the Pakistanis, it was not likely to have much practical effect. In New Delhi, Prime Minister Nehru, informed of the U.N.'s vote as he saw Red China's Chou En-lai off at the airport, announced: "I am deeply pained by this . . . But may I point out that the Kashmir Constituent Assembly has finished its work, dissolves itself tonight and disappears . . . The position remains as it is now." A few hours later, in the Kashmiri capital of Jammu. Puppet Premier Bakhshi Ghulam Mohammed formally proclaimed adoption of the constitution joining Kashmir to India—and in the process, gave the clearest statement yet of Jawa harlal Nehru's attitude toward the U.N.: "We are not bound by resolutions which are against our country and our interest."

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jun 2009 17:52

p_saggu wrote:I can understand them releasing Hafiz Sayeed, to cock a snook at india / sheer hatred for India. But why the phuk did they allow the Lal Masjid Badshah Maulanar Abdul Aziz Ghazi out?

The heavy wave of suicide bombing started after the storming of the Lal Masjid. There was total sympathy for the Ghazi and his brother among the masses, both elite and otherwise. Ayman Al Zawahiri, the second in command of Al Qaeda immediately released a video CD exhorting jihad and revenge for the Lal Masjid attack.

But, what else can one expect when one recalls the following incidents ?

In April 2007, Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi, issued a fatwa against the Tourism Minister Nilofer Bakhtiar as she was seen in a photograph hugging her male instructor in Paris and she was promptly removed from Ministership and also from Party positions by PML-Q Chief Chaudhry Shujaat. Shujaat was also the go-between used by Gen. Musharraf in his dealing with the Lal Masjid clerics.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Jun 2009 17:59

Here’s hoping that we would be so blessed as to see the article title come true.

Having said that an article worth reading in its entirety with the author, Kapil Komireddi, coming across as someone who visits BR:

The demise of Pakistan is inevitable

Its military establishment, hatred for India and history of injustice means Pakistan is a victim of the divisive logic that created it

Pakistan's fight against the Taliban is an illusion. The world may view it as a battle for Pakistan's soul, but the generals in Rawalpindi, with whom real power rests, are not so sure. If they were, 200,000 of their finest fighters wouldn't be chewing grass on the eastern border with India while the so-called battle for Pakistan's survival rages on in the north-west.

Blackmailing the world by threatening imminent collapse is vintage Pakistan. Recently, President Asif Ali Zardari told Der Spiegel that the safety of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal depended entirely upon how well the world supported democracy in his battered country. "If democracy in this country fails, if the world doesn't help democracy," he warned, "then any eventuality is possible." Having placed the burden of Pakistan's recovery from the mire of its own making on the world's shoulders, Zardari listed the "help" that his government expected: "billions of dollars".

But Pentagon documents released earlier this month give an alarming account of where the benignant billions of aid dollars poured into Pakistan's coffers over the last decade have ended up: on the most modern weaponry – combat aircraft, laser-guided kits, anti-ship missiles, air-to-air missiles – for use against India. Under the cloak of this conflict, Pakistan has equipped itself for battle with its traditional enemy, rapidly increasing its nuclear weapons at the same time.

The Taliban's recent targets have unsettled their erstwhile paymasters, but nothing seems to deter Islamabad from continuing with its policy of patronising Islamic extremists – so long as they are devoted to destroying India. Punjab is littered with these groups. In Lahore last month, Yahya Mujahid told me that his group, the banned Jamat-ud-Dawah, would continue to fight against Indian rule in Kashmir. The operations "have gone somewhat cold", he admitted. But he spoke confidently and strode assuredly – a man who knew things would turn in his favour.

Three weeks later, Hafiz Saeed, Jamat-ud-Dawah's leader, who had been detained after India produced several dossiers linking him to last November's Mumbai attacks, was freed. Among the reasons cited by the Lahore high court in ordering Saeed's release was this bolt from the blue: "The security laws and anti-terrorism laws of Pakistan are silent on al-Qaida being a terrorist organisation." The trial was a farce, a repetition of Pakistan's time-tested tactic of appearing to act against anti-India jihadis while not taking any action at all.

Mani Shankar Aiyar once described Pakistan as a country "divided against itself, but united against India". From that delusional feudal megalomaniac Zulfi Bhutto's pledge to wage a "thousand-year war" against India to General Pervez Musharraf's desperate attempt in 1999 to nuke it, hatred of India has been the constitutive sine qua non for Pakistan's survival. It is the one bugbear that makes Pakistanis out of Sindhis and Baluchis, Pathans and Punjabis.

Many Pakistanis I spoke to agreed that their country has gone to the dogs. But Kashmir still evokes the romantic idea of a Muslim nationhood. Pakistan continues to be defined by the struggle that created it – a struggle founded upon the premise that Muslims and Hindus cannot co-exist in one nation. With all of India's social failings, its success at forging a nationality out of its diversity stands as a towering repudiation of this idea, and merely by being itself, impeaches the logic of partition. Pakistan cannot justify its existence as long as India accommodates religious diversity. It is not enough that Pakistan is a Muslim country: for its creation to be truly vindicated, the country it was carved out of must be Hindu. As long as Kashmir, a Muslim-majority state, remains part of India, Pakistan will view partition as unfinished business and itself as its incomplete product.

But the Pakistan that was created in 1947 ceased to exist in 1971 with the creation of Bangladesh – in a manner that doesn't just cast deep moral questions on Pakistan's claim to speak for Kashmiri Muslims, but also offers an object lesson against indulging procrustean nationalisms, of which Pakistan remains a paragon. Created expressly to safeguard the Muslims of the subcontinent, Pakistan perpetrated the biggest genocide of Muslims since the arrival of Islam in south Asia. At least seven million East Pakistanis in what is now Bangladesh were slaughtered by West Pakistani soldiers within the space of a few months in 1971. The Islamic bond which animates Pakistan's jihadist policy in Kashmir was absent during this massacre. It was secular India, its forces led entirely by non-Hindus – a Muslim air marshal (Idris Latif), a Sikh commander of ground forces (JS Aurora), a Parsi chief of army (Sam Manekshaw), and a Jewish strategist and principal negotiator (JFR Jacob) – which intervened to liberate Pakistanis from the madness of Pakistan.

What remained of Pakistan in 1971 became a plaything of the military-feudal-political elite who turned it into a back office for the outsourced wars of big powers. Three decades later, Pakistan represents state failure, religious extremism, terrorism, nuclear proliferation. Few dispensations have failed their people on the scale that Pakistan has: it exists solely to provide subsistence to the military establishment.

Within the next 20 years, Pakistan as we know it today will probably not exist. Built on the idea that differences between people must ultimately culminate in permanent division, Pakistan has become a victim of the very logic that created it: from Karachi in the south-east to Peshawar in the north-west, Jinnah's children are carrying his divisive message to its logical extreme. The tragedy is that this is not an aberration, but the acme, of the idea of Pakistan.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Jun 2009 18:05

archan wrote:As for the comparison with the world's oldest profession here, would you rather prefer the word prostitute? ok bhai log, from now on prostitute it is.

At the moment, as part of my bed-time reading, I am reading Christopher Paolini's Brisingr. Leichte Kost! It deals with a fantasy world, called Alagaësia, with magicians, etc. There, if you know a person's true name in the ancient language, you can control them, and it is very difficult to know that, because for that you have to know the person extremely well and have a fair knowledge of the ancient language besides being extremely intelligent and wise, blah, blah!

There is some truth to this in the real world too. One needs to know the true nature of the enemy to control it, or at least control one's own actions towards it. It does matter how we call Pakistan!

In case 'prostitute' should now belong to BRF's official nomenclature for Pakistan, one can of course come up with many new acronyms. I was going to suggest IWT (Islamic Whore and Terrorist) but that collides with the other IWT!

Both IWTs happen to have put chains on our feet!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jun 2009 18:20

anupmisra wrote:
shiv wrote:The plebiscite word occurs on 31 Oct 1947 itself.
And, per the news article, by Sheikh Abdullah.

It occurred on the 25th Oct, 1947 in the meeting of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet and it was uttered first by Mountbatten and then by Nehru. Mountbatten said that the Junagadh example where people's will was ascertained, must be followed in J&K as well before sending the troops. Sardar Patel questioned this reasoning by arguing that a friendly state had asked India's help following invasion and there was no need for such niceties. Nehru took an intermediate position. He agreed with Patel but also agreed with Mountbatten while saying that such a plebiscite need not be conducted upfront but later.

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 14 Jun 2009 18:27

p_saggu wrote:I can understand them releasing Hafiz Sayeed, to cock a snook at india / sheer hatred for India.

The motive seems to be to wean away the Pakjabi "freedom fighters/stateless actors" sponsored by Army/ISI(Pakjabi Jihad Desk) from the TTP and maintain their reserve. They had sent a series of messages (Sri Lankan Team attack, Police Training camp) until they were 'heard'. H&D wrt. India is always there by default.

But the runaway chain reaction is truly underway.. attempt at ISI HQ, Mullah Naemi's Madrassa were in La Whore(Pakjab).. to follow it up the one in DIK borders Southern Pakjab. Either the 'FF' Pakhtoon boys in Madrassas have left for FATA or they are unwilling to stay silent and toe the line of the Sarkari(Officially Sponsored) Mullahs, hence have gone underground to enlist their Pakjabi brothers.. "bringing the fight to their heartland"(Muslim Khans radio intercept). As I am pretty sure, the ISI is profiling the Pakhtoon students in Pakjab.

Dr Naeemi’s killing ‘un-Islamic’: Hafiz Saeed

LAHORE: Jamaatud Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed has spoken out against the attack on eminent scholar Dr Sarfraz Ahmed Naeemi, calling it an inhumane and un-Islamic act, a private TV channel reported on Friday. Meanwhile, Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam-Fazl (JUI-F) chief Fazlur Rehman also expressed grief over the killing of Dr Naeemi, according to a private TV channel. JUI-F Secretary General Abdul Ghafoor Haidri and JUI-F Information Secretary Maulana Amjad Khan also condemned the killing. Federal Minister for Religious Affairs Hamid Saeed Kazmi also condemned the incident, saying it was a great loss to the Muslim world and Pakistan. daily times monitor

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 14 Jun 2009 19:01

Regarding three-and-a-half-friends of TSP.. I guess, you mean USA/UK, PRC and KSA... who is the half friend? Taliban?

please accomodate my naadaan question onlee...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Jun 2009 20:21

Chiron wrote:Regarding three-and-a-half-friends of TSP.. I guess, you mean USA/UK, PRC and KSA... who is the half friend? Taliban?

please accomodate my naadaan question onlee...

That was SSridhar's formulation! I am only doing a little PR work here!

I believe you're right! UK is the halfling!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Jun 2009 20:31

Tilak wrote:Dr Naeemi’s killing ‘un-Islamic’: Hafiz Saeed

LAHORE: Jamaatud Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed has spoken out against the attack on eminent scholar Dr Sarfraz Ahmed Naeemi, calling it an inhumane and un-Islamic act, a private TV channel reported on Friday. Meanwhile, Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam-Fazl (JUI-F) chief Fazlur Rehman also expressed grief over the killing of Dr Naeemi, according to a private TV channel. JUI-F Secretary General Abdul Ghafoor Haidri and JUI-F Information Secretary Maulana Amjad Khan also condemned the killing. Federal Minister for Religious Affairs Hamid Saeed Kazmi also condemned the incident, saying it was a great loss to the Muslim world and Pakistan. daily times monitor

Only those who wield the guns, decide what is un-Islamic.

Hafiz Saeed and Maulana Diesel, the sarkari dogs, are going to become too scared to shit even. The GM crops of Taliban fighters are going to chakki men pees all these old makki ke daane!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jun 2009 20:35

RajeshA wrote:
Chiron wrote:Regarding three-and-a-half-friends of TSP.. I guess, you mean USA/UK, PRC and KSA... who is the half friend? Taliban?
I believe you're right! UK is the halfling!

In my scheme of things, the halfling is Japan. I don't even consider the UK as that satellite is co-located with the US and appears as a single source. The rest are OK, PRC & KSA.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 14 Jun 2009 20:39

arun wrote:Here’s hoping that we would be so blessed as to see the article title come true.

Having said that an article worth reading in its entirety with the author, Kapil Komireddi, coming across as someone who visits BR:

The demise of Pakistan is inevitable

Its military establishment, hatred for India and history of injustice means Pakistan is a victim of the divisive logic that created it

Some comments from WKK Indians from the comment section

vakibs
14 Jun 09, 1:25pm (about 3 hours ago)
Beating a weak opponent is not good manners Kapil. The Pakistanis are having a tough time in their country. Let's give them some moral (and yes financial) support.Giving them some existential crisis is not really a good idea.

Thank you, Vakibs! I am shocked at the tone of this article. Why should we kick people when they are down? What did the ordinary people of Swat do to deserve this?
Religion is a silly basis for nationality. The partition was a mistake, but we in India have to look at the way religious minorities (Muslims, Christians, Sikhs) have been treated and admit that there is a rational basis for Muslims to be wary.
Vakibs, I agree about the financial help. Do you know any way to send money (in Indian currency) for helping the Swati refugees? I understand that the international relief agencies are having trouble finding enough funds for them

ashwattama
14 Jun 09, 3:42pm (22 minutes ago)
This is lazy sensationalist journalism I am afraid. Inevitability in history doesnt exist except in the warped mind of fascists. Especially when screamed out as a headline, and in conjunction with a prophecgy about the DEMISE of an entire nation of 150 million people.
The article itself may have accurate facts (so Pakistan's government spends far, far more than is necessary on defence and appears obsessed with India) but the author accidentally reveals the nakedness of his own virulence, or at least flashed saffron underpants, in his choice of title.
As an Indian, I am ashamed of you, Kapil. In our own country, chronic hunger is getting worse. Millions of people in India get less than100 calories per day and are malnutritioned - and numbers are actually WORSE than last year. The law and order situation is pathetic throughout the country, except in the walled, gated communities where the rich live. Girl children are getting killed with impunity.
Dont gloat over other people's troubles. And never imagine that we are superior to ANYONE on earth. Try to make things better at home. If you can't, please hold your tongue.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Jun 2009 21:14

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=10170

February 94, 1954

Dear Mr. Prime Minister:

I send you this personal message because I want you to know about my decision to extend military aid to Pakistan before it is public knowledge and also because I want you to know directly from me that this step does not in any way affect the friendship we feel for India. Quite the contrary. We will continually strive to strengthen the warm and enduring friendship between our two countries.

Our two Governments have agreed that our desires for peace are in accord. It has also been understood that if our interpretation of existing circumstances and our belief in how to achieve our goals differ, it is the right and duty of sovereign nations to make their own decisions. Having studied long and carefully the problem of opposing possible aggression in the Middle East, I believe that consultation between Pakistan and Turkey about security problems will serve the interests not only of Pakistan and Turkey but also of the whole free world. Improvement in Pakistan's defensive capability will also serve these interests and it is for this reason that our aid will be given. This Government's views on this subject are elaborated in a public statement I will release, a copy of which Ambassador Allen will give you.

What we are proposing to do, and what Pakistan is agreeing to, is not directed in any way against India. And I am confirming publicly that if our aid to any country, including Pakistan, is misused and directed against another in aggression I will undertake immediately, in accordance with my constitutional authority, appropriate action both within and without the UN to thwart such aggression. I believe that the Pakistan-Turkey collaboration agreement which is being discussed is sound evidence of the defensive purposes which both countries have in mind.

I know that you and your Government are keenly aware of the need for economic progress as a prime requisite for stability and strength. This Government has extended assistance to India in recognition of this fact, and I am recommending to Congress a continuation of economic and technical aid for this reason. We also believe it in the interest of the free world that India have a strong military defense capability and have admired the effective way your Government has administered your military establishment. If your Government should conclude that circumstances require military aid of a type contemplated by our mutual security legislation, please be assured that your request would receive my most sympathetic consideration.

I regret that there has been such widespread and unfounded speculation on this subject. Now that the facts are known, I hope that the real import of our decision will be understood.

With best wishes,

Sincerely,

DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Jun 2009 21:17

SSridhar wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I believe you're right! UK is the halfling!
In my scheme of things, the halfling is Japan. I don't even consider the UK as that satellite is co-located with the US and appears as a single source. The rest are OK, PRC & KSA.

On first thought, it comes as a surprise, but then it is not such a big surprise, considering how much money the Pakistanis get from Japan. However Japan was/is for a long time, America's favorite bank, which used to underwrite only those projects approved by US and often insisted on by US. That money they give is only for washing their old sins in the international arena, and do not seem to be following any independent strategic objective on and around Pakistan. I could err on this.

I would have thought that the British were the halfling, even though they act in unison with America or as a follower, they still sometimes show some of their old Great Game habits, and for cultivating all those rabid Islamists in Britain have earned themselves the right to be considered a true Pakistani 'Friend', half not because of lack of trying or coordination with the other Big Friend USA, but rather because of their declining strategic reach.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Jun 2009 21:46

arun wrote:
vakibs
Let's give them some moral (and yes financial) support.
Do you know any way to send money (in Indian currency) for helping the Swati refugees?[/b]

Let's send a few thousand Indian Rupees (in notes of carefully marked 100's) for the hungry in SWAT and see if they crop up in the pockets of killed or arrested terrorists in J&K and elsewhere. That should shut up these WKKs once and for all.