Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 11 Jun 2009 23:12

History tells us that Pakistan only attempts an overt military misadventure against India when it is convinced it will be able to 'win'.
Currently the disparity in all fields military, nuclear and conventional is so huge, the Indian armed forces will likely wipe out their armed forces in an all out, no holds barred war.

The Brits training the Pakis is bad for India, the brits are only trying to assuage paki H&D and hoping that Pakistan out of goodwill will stop sending its angels of death to Britainistan.

Collectively, it seems that the world powers are in a conspiracy of silence to dump and direct pakistan's jihadi army on to India to sort out, and depart the region.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jun 2009 03:29

why to get chaddis in a twist? visiting a primary training base is not exactly hush hush funda transfer. one should be more worried if the PAF is visiting 29 Palms or China Lake

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 Jun 2009 05:56

Rear Admiral Azhar Shamim promoted

‘I have a Stinger on every peak...we shall walk into Siachen to mop up hundreds of dead Indians in cold’

In the first account by a Pakistani military officer that nails Islamabad’s lie on Kargil, a former pilot who was Director of Operations of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) during the 1999 conflict has given a blow-by-blow account of the preparations undertaken by his country’s Army that led to operations inside the Indian side of the Line of Control.

Published in India in the latest issue of the Vayu Aerospace and Defence Review magazine, PAF Air Commodore (retd) Kaiser Tufail, the man who “interrogated” IAF Flight Lieutenant K Nachiketa after his MiG-27 crashed in PoK during a bombing run in the initial days of the war, has laid bare the detailed Kargil plan by the Pakistan Army. He says that the “Army trio” of General Pervez Musharraf, 10 Corps Commander Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmad and Force Command Northern Areas commander Maj Gen Javed Hasan “took no one into confidence, neither its operational commanders, nor the heads of the other services”.

------------------------- long article, rest snipped -------------------------

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jun 2009 06:04

Can someone please explain to me the point of this?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/first-pakistan/2842109779/

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 Jun 2009 06:10

Rakesh wrote:Can someone please explain to me the point of this?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/first-pakistan/2842109779/

Too much Biryani causes ejection seat failure for Inzamam.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 17 Jun 2009 11:12

US aid to pakistan

Not unexpected... but what is interesting is certain statements in the report....

"While governments may change, I don't believe the country itself is about to fall apart."

A change in government? Does that include a military dictator or a India hating radical government?

The summary said, "Over the years, US assistance to Pakistan has fluctuated with political events, sending mixed messages and leading most Pakistanis to question both our intentions and our staying power. Today, most Pakistanis believe the United States will cut and run when it serves our purpose, a belief which undermines our long-term efforts to defeat extremists, foster democratic change, and support transparent and accountable institutions that promote security and stability in Pakistan."

"The status quo is not working," it said, and argued that "the United States believes it is paying too much and getting too little -- and most Pakistanis believe exactly the opposite."

Thus, if there is no change of this baseline, according to the legislation, "there is little likelihood of drying up popular tolerance for anti-US terrorist groups or persuading Pakistani leaders to devote the political and capital necessary to deny such groups sanctuary and covert material support."

It is only anti-US, means we have to fend ourselves ,forgot unkil he is trying hard covering his own a$$.

Most important is US is not going to cut and run....hmmmm what does that mean to MRCA,P8I or that whole lot of American hardware that we might indulge ourselves in, in case of a Confrontation with Pak will they ensure that these are not used.

It's good that we hedged on nuclear front atleast by inking deal with Russ, France....

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Jun 2009 16:31

X Posted.

Reuters reports that French investigators suspect that DCN engineers were killed in Karachi because bribes promised for the purchase of Agosta submarines were not paid by the French.

Not an implausible scenario given the rogue nature of Pakistan’s armed forces:

French probe alleged Pakistani role in bombing

Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:49pm IST

By Thierry Leveque

PARIS, June 19 (Reuters) - French magistrates investigating an attack in Pakistan blamed on Islamist militants that killed 11 French nationals in 2002 are looking into allegations it was linked to corrupt deals, lawyers for the victims' families said……….................

French investigating magistrates Marc Trevidic and Yves Jannier informed the families of the victims on Thursday that they no longer believed the scenario of an Islamist attack was credible, lawyers for the families told reporters.

The lawyers said Trevidic and Jannier had told them they were looking into allegations that the attack was a retaliation against France from unnamed Pakistani officials over bribes linked to a defence contract that were promised but never paid......................

The investigating magistrates obtained a top secret internal memo in October 2008 from a state-owned military shipbuilder which contains the allegations, Morice said.

The memo, copies of which were shown on French media on Friday, says French and Pakistani officials connived to take bribes as part of the sale of French Agosta submarines to Pakistan in the mid-1990s. ………………........

The secret memo says France stopped paying the bribes after the 1995 election, won by Chirac, and that Pakistani officials kept asking for them for several years.

The allegation is that they eventually lost patience and organised in retaliation the attack on the bus full of French engineers, who were working on the Agosta submarine project. (Additional reporting by Estelle Shirbon; editing by Philippa Fletcher)

Reuters

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 19 Jun 2009 18:21

arun wrote:X Posted.

The allegation is that they eventually lost patience and organised in retaliation the attack on the bus full of French engineers, who were working on the Agosta submarine project. (Additional reporting by Estelle Shirbon; editing by Philippa Fletcher)

Reuters

[/quote]

This is shocking even by the Pakistani standards.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 20 Jun 2009 00:49

Was the intruding aircraft American, Russian, or did we have 2 intrusions within 24 hours?!

US aircraft violates Indian airspace

Russian military plane violates Indian airspace

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 20 Jun 2009 00:53

PratikDas wrote:Was the intruding aircraft American, Russian, or did we have 2 intrusions within 24 hours?!

US aircraft violates Indian airspace

Russian military plane violates Indian airspace

No..it's one and the same..it's an An-124 hired by US Military, enroute to Kandhahar.

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 22 Jun 2009 18:27

BIGGEST JOKE
Pakistan: A superpower by 2050

http://pakobserver.net/200906/22/Articles01.asp

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 22 Jun 2009 19:57

soutikghosh wrote:BIGGEST JOKE
Pakistan: A superpower by 2050

http://pakobserver.net/200906/22/Articles01.asp

We must then redefine “superpower” to emphasize morality, international cooperation, world peace, clean and healthy environment, eradication of poverty, and promotion of equality among nations.

This article seems an essay from a high school kid writing his board exams.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 22 Jun 2009 20:05

Pak army chief in Russia to seek weapons to fight Taliban

Pakistan army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani is expected to seek weapons from Russia to enable his country to counter the growing threat from the Taliban.

This is getting a bit too much of drama from the Pakis.

ckapadia · Post by **ckapadia** » 22 Jun 2009 20:08

AmitR wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:BIGGEST JOKE
Pakistan: A superpower by 2050

http://pakobserver.net/200906/22/Articles01.asp
We must then redefine “superpower” to emphasize morality, international cooperation, world peace, clean and healthy environment, eradication of poverty, and promotion of equality among nations.

This article seems an essay from a high school kid writing his board exams.

Fellow BRFites - please put a warning on links like that in future. I nearly died laughing.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jun 2009 04:36

India should apply full diplomatic pressure upon Germany to stop the deal.We can offer them another deal instead,upgrading our 4 U-209s to U-212/214 std.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... B2.2K_zJVs
Germany Is Poised to Sell Submarines to Pakistan (Update1)

By Patrick Donahue and Brian Parkin

June 18 (Bloomberg) -- Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition will probably go ahead with the sale of three submarines to Pakistan, ignoring opposition concerns about the delivery of military hardware to the nuclear-armed state, two German government officials said.

The Federal Security Council, a body made up of ministers that vets all military hardware sales, is prepared to back the sale of the Class 214 submarines made by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems AG, the officials said on condition of anonymity because the decision is not yet final.

A Pakistani delegation including army chief Ashfaq Parvez Kayani is in Berlin today for meetings with German officials. Opposition lawmakers are wary of sales to Pakistan as it struggles with Islamist radicals along the border with neighboring Afghanistan.

“We have to ask ourselves whether such an unstable country really needs such submarine technology,” said Alexander Bonde, a Green Party lawmaker leading opposition to the sale in the lower house of parliament in Berlin. Bonde said a final decision will probably be made after German national elections Sept. 27.

Taliban Offensive

Pakistan has struggled in a seven-week campaign to push back radicals after Taliban fighters advanced to within 100 kilometers (60 miles) of the capital, Islamabad. The army is preparing to mount an offensive in South Waziristan to drive out militants from its northwest tribal areas.

A Pakistani delegation visited Berlin several weeks ago to express interest in the submarines, said Muhammad Azam, a spokesman for the Pakistani embassy in Berlin. No official orders have yet been tendered, he said.

A preliminary inquiry from Pakistan has been “positively assessed” by the German government, though no official request yet been processed, Economy Ministry spokesman Steffen Moritz said in a phone interview.

Andrea Wessel, a spokeswoman for ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, a unit of Dusseldorf-based ThyssenKrupp AG, said the company wouldn’t comment on “ongoing projects.”

“Pakistan’s interest in these submarines shows it still sees India as the traditional enemy, even though bilateral tensions have eased somewhat since 2004,” Christian Wagner, an analyst at the Berlin-based German Institute for International and Security Affairs, said in an interview. “The money would be better spent on equipping and training its land forces to combat terrorist insurgents.”

The 65-meter (213-foot) submarines, non-nuclear vessels equipped with eight torpedo tubes, rely on a fuel-cell system to remain silent beneath the water for longer periods than previous models. ThyssenKrupp describes the vessels as having “extraordinarily developed stealth characteristics and an impressive weapon and sensor payload.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Patrick Donahue in Berlin at at pdonahue1@bloomberg.net; Brian Parkin in Berlin at bparkin@bloomberg.net.

Last Updated: June 18, 2009 13:26 EDT

govardhanks · Post by **govardhanks** » 24 Jun 2009 12:39

Submarines are difficult to detect and destroy. may be this is the reason why pakis are behind it..

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 24 Jun 2009 13:41

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_pPFRLD ... re=related

See vid around 1.16m ... SSG operators using AK series gun with Picatinny rails. See in it a couple of other vids as well. The recoil looks extremely low.. Most likely Chinese made.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2009 21:43

govardhanks wrote:Submarines are difficult to detect and destroy. may be this is the reason why pakis are behind it..

What PN follows is the 'Strategy of Sea Denial' and the submarine is the best weapon to do that. The overall quantity of forces required are less. What we follow is 'Strategy of Sea Control' and for that we need a large navy with healthy balance of Surfacr and sub-surface combatants, not the mention the MiG 29s and the bears.PN strategy (and used by smaller forces everywhere) has uncanny similarity with hit and run tactics of terrorists in J&K and ours with CI Forces.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 25 Jun 2009 04:08

Way to go PAF !

57 PAF officials arrested over links with terrorists

ISLAMABAD: Over 50 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officials have been court marshaled following arrest on charges of having links with terrorists while an important PAF official who is also wanted is at large.

According to information gathered from Geo News source, action against some of the PAF officials over links with terrorists began in former president Pervez Musharraf’s regime.

More arrests were undertaken after a PAF official Mushtaq was apprehended. As many as 57 officials were arrested from Kamra, Lahore, Sargodha, Mianwali and Karachi. Of these, 26 had to face court marshal who were awarded three and half to 17 year imprisonment while six were awarded capital punishment on involvement in serious crimes.

Those awarded death sentence are: senior technicians, Karamdin, Khalid Mehmood; carpool technician Nawazish; junior technicians, Niaz, Nasrullah and Adnan.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 Jun 2009 16:03

E-mail from shaheed Nayakuddin who embraced shahaadat in a glorious manner...

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 26 Jun 2009 14:32

I have a few questions from the scans above.
What (year) , did Pakistan receive its last F-16(s) ?
and is that the Desert Eagle (F-16) in Paki colours a photo shop ?

Thanks

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 27 Jun 2009 00:03

Zardari asks US to give Pakistan drone technology
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... technology

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 27 Jun 2009 00:23

Zardari in power struggle with army over India detente: Report
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Worl ... 707927.cms

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 28 Jun 2009 16:17

How the U.S. Has Secretly Backed Pakistan's Nuclear Program From Day One
The Obama Adminstration is Helping to Upgrade Pakistan's Nuclear Weapons

http://www.counterpunch.org/andrew06242009.html

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 28 Jun 2009 17:14

http://www.defencetalk.com/pakistan-mad ... fly-20141/
First Pakistan made JF-17 to fly by the end of this year.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jun 2009 17:33

ArmenT wrote:http://www.defencetalk.com/pakistan-mad ... fly-20141/
First Pakistan made JF-17 to fly by the end of this year.

Doctrine revealed:

“PAF has extensively flown against the militants in Swat as well as in FATA. Application of airpower has brought about tangible results. This is a new type of warfare in which PAF has been participating for the first time during the last one year or so in support of Pakistan Army. We will continue our contribution towards our national security effort as long as it is required.”

And, not single Taliban commander has been taken care of (I mean killed) - they certainly take care of them in other ways.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 28 Jun 2009 18:18

And, not single Taliban commander has been taken care of (I mean killed) - they certainly take care of them in other ways.

That is a good one. Even if they did kill someone, what does that have to do with Bandhar?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 28 Jun 2009 19:05

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Pakistan_Air_Force?t=11.
just s croll down the page

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 28 Jun 2009 23:08

Dilbu wrote:Bakistan to start production of JF-17 'Bandar' by month-end

Pictures are courtesy of Xinhui@China Defence Forum

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 29 Jun 2009 19:49

Military Inc.
a banned book in pakistan

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Jun 2009 13:32

Turkish defence company to modernize Pakistan's F-16s

Turkish defence company Tusas said on Monday it would modernise 42 of Pakistan's F-16 jet fleet in a deal it said would be worth around $75 million. The project will begin in October 2010 in Tusas facilities and will take 46 months, the company said in a written statement sent to Reuters.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 30 Jun 2009 18:05

The turks mostly have blk-30/40's. Are the paki F-16A's being upgraded to 30/40's? Thats a big let down from what the blk-50 begging porkis wanted.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 30 Jun 2009 20:13

Pak begins production of combat jet developed with China
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pak- ... 721165.cms

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Jul 2009 09:31

Arent they just assembling the SKDs coming over from China?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 01 Jul 2009 10:04

vavinash wrote:The turks mostly have blk-30/40's. Are the paki F-16A's being upgraded to 30/40's? Thats a big let down from what the blk-50 begging porkis wanted.

After the HAF (Hellenic AF - Greece) moved to order and operationalise Blk-52s the Turks IIRC have moved rapidly to order Blk50/52s and also upgrade their existing fleed to the same standard. TAI

was I believe involved in the contracts.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Jul 2009 10:38

http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/jul ... bribes.htm

Rediff has published this article on the bombing of the French engineers.

Slightly confusing article, I didnt understand "An Internet information site Mediapart spoke to Thevenet. The DGSE would have organised a special operation with French commandos (Service Action), specialised in clandestine operations outside French territory. One Pakistani officer would have been killed and three admirals would have ended with broken knees. 'On ne fait pas chanter la France! (One does not blackmail France!)'. Karachi had tried to blackmail the French government refusing to pay the promised commissions."

Was such an operation undertaken by the French guys?

Any which ways, huge learning for all of us - the armchair generals on what actually goes on in ALL arms deals worldover.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 01 Jul 2009 16:13

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Pak begins production of combat jet developed with China
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pak- ... 721165.cms

what is the purpose of sending the kits in pak to complete,why dont they send the finished a..c. ? ultimately it will be cheaper if it is produced completely in china than in sending to pakistan to complete/.

does it means that the bandar has less range?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Jul 2009 16:21

I dont think range is an issue. More like "we can also paint aeroplanes"

"ham aeroplanes be paint karthe hain"

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 02 Jul 2009 02:30

Does anyone has information about the pakistani military's doctrine of offensive-defence or the counter to the cold-start doctrine, ?
are these doctrines same or different?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 Jul 2009 11:29

Samay wrote:
Jamal K. Malik wrote:Pak begins production of combat jet developed with China
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pak- ... 721165.cms
what is the purpose of sending the kits in pak to complete,why dont they send the finished a..c. ? ultimately it will be cheaper if it is produced completely in china than in sending to pakistan to complete/.

does it means that the bandar has less range?

Perhaps to give Pakis some experience in assembling and maintaining the aircraft. They've actually managed to sell this aircraft to one of the former Soviet -stan's (not sure which one though, Kazakhstan? Krygyzthan?), so they'll be expected to handle the maintenance issues.