Indian Army Discussion

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HariC
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by HariC »

"People's attitudes towards me have changed. Earlier, they had the utmost confidence in my abilities -- I was given plum tasks to take care of. Now even though I can do everything, including driving, firing and physical tasks, all the meaty jobs go to others, and I am given things to do that are not in keeping with my rank. That makes me feel bad."
That might be his interpretation , but to me , the above sounds like they are treating him with kid gloves. It sounds like he is off operational tasks . and with good reason. (he himself admits he had an accident while driving - surely he cannot include driving in the above?). Unless we have more details, There is no reason to assume the worst (that he is being given clerk or chaprasi duties.)

It takes time for an officer with disabilities to bounce back. We did have some generals who had artificial legs - then there was a pilot with a artificial leg as well. it just proves there is no glass ceiling for the ones with disabilities.

Unfortunately losing eye needs more work than an artificial leg. lose eye - no perception of depth - so no driving, no shooting (how do you judge distances and set your gun sights ?), even physical tasks might be a challenge. (How far is that rope that i have to jump and catch? 5feet ? 7feet?) . He has got a challenge ahead of him. And I dont blame the NSG if he is not being given hard tasks.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by nelson »

But why can not the army or the govt have a system of honourable exit for such officers and men wounded or disabled in action?

Class I Highest OP Vijay Kargil
Class II OP Vijay Others
Class III Other OPs after OP Vijay
Class IV OPs before Vijay
Class V(beats the varna!) Persons injured outside ops -- God Save them

The support extended to such persons out of Kargil OP Vijay for leaving service in a financially sound position is a matter of chance and individual determination. So, many cling on to the rope but face the rough treatment over the remaining service.

Something better can be thought out for managing such persons on a case to case basis than touting a blanket policy that is being followed now.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

In this case, atleast officially the NSG seems to be doing right by AK Singh by keeping him in the organization and not posting him out before his stint ends. However, I have a feeling his frustration might be due to how his personal relations with his fellow officers might have changed due to his injury and their apathy (perceived or real). Every SF unit has a long list of such disabled vets and the attempt is to keep them in but assign them other duties (incld. in the US Army) which are not as physically demanding - given the current Eyerak and AfPak wars you can find plenty of them in US units such as SEALs and Army SF.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Surya »

I would suggest people read Col Kaul's book to understand how it happens.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Sanku »

nelson wrote:Something better can be thought out for managing such persons on a case to case basis than touting a blanket policy that is being followed now.
There is always an option for disabled war veteran to quote compassionate grounds and leave the armed forces. In fact all those who can show that their injuries have been in the line of duty (including the engineers who have a fuse blow up in their face) are entitled to suitable extra compensation.

The captain is having difficulty coming to terms with his ill luck -- he is a lion heart who wants to be the super achiever -- he says he prefers dying in the line of duty to this, think about it for a while.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

Sanku wrote: The captain is having difficulty coming to terms with his ill luck -- he is a lion heart who wants to be the super achiever -- he says he prefers dying in the line of duty to this, think about it for a while.
This is actually quite correct. Capt. Singh didn't get into NSG because he was happy to sit back and let things take their course. He got in (and others like him) because he wanted to excel in pushing the limits of his capabilities and not just stand by idly, doing something mundane. SF people share this trait regardless of unit or nationality. For him to be reduced from being a super-capable go-getter individual of peak mental and physical fitness to someone who is viewed as a now lesser-capable individual, is something very harsh and he will take time coming to terms with it. He might even overcome it as many of his nature have done and be once again successful in what he used to do before because he may be physically wounded but from his words it is evident that his mental strength is intact. More power to him! (when did adminullahs in their infinite wisdom remove the thumbs up icon?!)
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by sunilUpa »

^^^It's all about team play in Armed forces. Each member of the team has to perform optimally for the team to be successfull and they need to trust each other completely. If one member is not able to operate optimally, he may put the whole team and mission in jeopardy. Captain. Singh has lost one eye in the line of duty, which will affect his depth perception, amongst other things. IMVHO that may be the reason he is put on desk duties, for the time being.

We are forver greatful for the sacrifices made by Captain Singh and his like..
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by negi »

IA life is tough and many people get involved in accidents and end up having fatal injuries Capt. Singh was involved in the 26/11 operation so his case is being highlighted by the media . It is unfair to expect armed forces to think on senti and emotional lines as they strictly operate by laid down guidelines and in all such cases the concerned individual is relegated to administrative jobs no questions asked what so ever .

Btw there are periodic medical tests in services and if anyone is found unfit wrt laid down standards he is put under a particular category (high BP, asthama, myopia etc) and these are critical to one's future deputation/assignment.
Last edited by negi on 23 Jun 2009 23:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by BijuShet »

Raja Bose wrote: ....(when did adminullahs in their infinite wisdom remove the thumbs up icon?!)
Bosesaar if you need a thumbsup icon then I have a gif that will work for you. Please see my response in the nukkad dhaga.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Surya »

Once again I would suggest one read's Col Kaul's book.

The system can be quite callous -
It is not a question of senti etc. If you can continue to meet the requirements then it should be made as normal as possible.

Col Kaul kept clearing his requirements and still ran aground. My friend was at MHOW with Col Kaul and agrees with everything he says.

I can post an excerpt from his book but if one cares about the other side of serving then you should get the book and read it.

If the Capt can continue to meet requirements for shooting etc. - he should be able to do a lot more than a desk job.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

BijuShet wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: ....(when did adminullahs in their infinite wisdom remove the thumbs up icon?!)
Bosesaar if you need a thumbsup icon then I have a gif that will work for you. Please see my response in the nukkad dhaga.
Thanks! I wish I could use that but adminullahs might swoop down and do a Nayakuddin on me for posting large icons :mrgreen: I was looking for the small thumbs up icon B-R used to have before.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

Surya wrote:Once again I would suggest one read's Col Kaul's book.

The system can be quite callous -
Might it be that the other members in the team may not retain the same confidence in his abilities? It is after all a tightly integrated team with every man indispensable. Actually since the Capt is as physically fit as he is able to be, he can probably be inducted into the training wing as an instructor....does not necessarily mean he has to be brought back into a hit. This practice is followed in other SF units since this ensures that the person (who is a highly trained and skilled individual anyways) is not riding a desk filling forms and at the same time is able to use his experience and knowledge to train new recruits without letting it go to waste. Hopefully atleast this is made possible for Capt. Singh.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

we had a thumbs up icon ? :-?

________________________

was this posted before ?
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/se ... ndias.html
A seminar on modernisation of India's infantry was held on May 25 by the Centre for Land Warfare Studies in Delhi. Here's a brief list of some of the immediate recommendations that were drawn up after the seminar:

*
An infantry battalion or individual should preferably be rotated between two different or three near congruous terrain profiles only.
*
A project to reduce weight of the present medium machine gun, automatic grenade launcher, and anti-material rifle by at least 6-8 kgs should be undertaken.
*
Replacement of the existing Hand Grenade No 36 should be expedited with the introduction of a variety of grenades to meet all requirements.
*
81 mm Mortars should be made lighter and possibly based on tracked carriers and their range should be not less than 7,000 metres.
*
A man-portable unmanned aerial vehicle troop (four-six aerial vehicles) should be authorised to the intelligence and surveillance platoon of infantry battalion. This would enhance the infantry battalion’s area of influence.
*
The ‘bayonet strength’ of a rifle section should be preserved. In a single section, there should at least be 6-7 persons available for launching an assault on the enemy.
*
Custom-built obstacle crossing expedients should be made available to infantry for negotiating water obstacles as well as mine fields.
*
Infantry company ‘F’ echelon should be based on two 1.5 ton capacity low silhouette vehicles.
*
Ghatak platoons should be trained for helicopter-borne operations and provided with light strike vehicles.
any comments from the knowledgeable ones ? RayC ?
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by negi »

^ Surya ji what I am trying to emphasize is the fact that IA is not there to make/frame rules they merely uphold or enforce them .

Again as you said If you can continue to meet the requirements then it should be made as normal as possible. Above includes 'physical condition as per IA standards' .

I don't see what the issue is about these gentlemen are not being asked to turn up the papers they are merely being assigned tasks which are physically less demanding ; how will you explain the SSB's rejection of folks who were able to run 100 meters under 13 seconds but had knocked knees or the one's who crossed he burma bridge but were found to have a slightly weak grip by the medical officer. Now that contact lenses have been so successful why not consider folks with marginal myopia for PABT ?
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Surya »

negi

Exactly - Col Kaul for example retrained himself to shoot with diff arm\eye.

The captains injury is less severe and he maybe able to do a lot more. I have a feeling that he is facing hurdles inspite of being able to do many of the tasks. Hence his frustration.

The desk job is in effect the slow way to a career end and stagnation - thats what he is fighting - same way as Col Kaul fought to get from Major to COl before he gave up the fight
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

Surya, in that case an optimal way would be to have the Captain as an instructor in the training wing since he also has the advantage of taking part in real ops and can share his experience and participate in upgrading tactics based on past shortcomings.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by JaiS »

Rahul M wrote:we had a thumbs up icon ? :-?
Yes, during the good old days when we used Ultimate BB as the forum software !

Military band to take part in French national day parade

"This will be the first time that Indian troops, around 400 of them, will march in a foreign country's national celebrations. All the three Services will be part of the Indian contingent," said an official.

Interestingly, France will send two A-310 military aircraft to airlift the Indian contingent for the parade. "The contingent will leave on July 6 and return after July 15," the official said.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by RayC »

Gen TN Raina lost an eye in a grenade accident when he was a 2nd Lt.

He rose to be the COAS.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Khalsa »

Lieutenant General PS Joshi rose to become the CIDS after losing both his legs to a mine.
He was from the Engineers but commanded mechanised Brigade and regiments in the Rajasthan.

A stellar officer and man.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by RayC »

Rahul M wrote:

________________________

was this posted before ?
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/se ... ndias.html
A seminar on modernisation of India's infantry was held on May 25 by the Centre for Land Warfare Studies in Delhi. Here's a brief list of some of the immediate recommendations that were drawn up after the seminar:

*
An infantry battalion or individual should preferably be rotated between two different or three near congruous terrain profiles only.
*
A project to reduce weight of the present medium machine gun, automatic grenade launcher, and anti-material rifle by at least 6-8 kgs should be undertaken.
*
Replacement of the existing Hand Grenade No 36 should be expedited with the introduction of a variety of grenades to meet all requirements.
*
81 mm Mortars should be made lighter and possibly based on tracked carriers and their range should be not less than 7,000 metres.
*
A man-portable unmanned aerial vehicle troop (four-six aerial vehicles) should be authorised to the intelligence and surveillance platoon of infantry battalion. This would enhance the infantry battalion’s area of influence.
*
The ‘bayonet strength’ of a rifle section should be preserved. In a single section, there should at least be 6-7 persons available for launching an assault on the enemy.
*
Custom-built obstacle crossing expedients should be made available to infantry for negotiating water obstacles as well as mine fields.
*
Infantry company ‘F’ echelon should be based on two 1.5 ton capacity low silhouette vehicles.
*
Ghatak platoons should be trained for helicopter-borne operations and provided with light strike vehicles.
any comments from the knowledgeable ones ? RayC ?
The suggestion to specialise units and individuals in two different or three near congruous terrain in not a practical sugggestion.

The terrain profile varies from High Altitude Area (HAA) to mountains, to jungles, to deserts, to plains, to flats as in Kutch et al.

The operational profile varies from offensive, defensive, CI which is different in Kashmir and different in NE, DCB, Amphibious Warfare. Jungle Warfare, Mountain Warfare, HAA Warfare, Riverine Warfare etc.

Therefore, dedicating units and individuals in such a varied terrain and operational mix and given the permutations and combinations, it will be a nightmare to rotate units and individuals and ensure that none are over extended in their areas beyond the mandatory tenure.

Further, it will not be fair to the units and individuals to typecast and bound to only a set of operational and terrain conditions as it will only induce boredom through stereotype scenarios.

Promotion management and personal management will also be problematic since the vacancies may not be commensurate to their slot and thus, though cleared for the next rank, if there is no vacancy in one's specialisation in operational and terrain environment, he will have to languish, while his juniors get promoted since vacancies exist in their areas of specialisation. If a person moves out to command in areas not his specialisation, it will not be fair to him or the troops he will then command.

Take the role of the Scouts battalions. They were for a specific purpose. Right now, they are being used like Infantry!

Square peg in a round hole.

Reducing the weight of weapons for the infantry is always welcomed. However, reduction of weight causes a weapon to shake vigorously when fired in the auto mode. Therefore, at best, I think it is a wishlist, but then the DRDO may come up with something novel. No harm in wishing!

This vareity of grenade for specific purpose is not understood. On the one hand, we want to reduce weight and on the other, we recommend an increase in the inventory. If a variety of grenades are to be carried, the weight carried by the man will increase and if such a type of grenade does not find its use during the operation, it will be unproductive weight being carried.

Modernisation of the Infantry is always welcomed, but it should not be at the expense of the bayonet strength. The fact that they are talking of 6 to 7 in a section indicates that already the bayonet strength has been milked away for man other ''fancier'' equipment that are also essential!! A situation of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The suggestions of the new equipment that should be inducted is excellent, but then one has to ensure that the Govt and the Army takes a hard look and increase the manpower of the Infantry battalion and not to the usual adhoc business of 'managing' the induction by cutting corners and inducing an inefficent fighting potential.

It must be understood that it is the Infantry Company that will deliver in the attack and in defence and no amount of fancy weaponry, weapon platforms and gadgetery will change the situation. The bayonet strength cannot be denuded as it is being done.

One aspect one forget is the psychological impact of manpower. Imagine the situation where a police force is attacked by 10 men in a riot situation to being attacked by 100. 10 men can be handled with ease. 100 will create worries and even panic. Now, given that as a background, check how many in a section today actually are the 'bayonet sterngth'. Who cares if out of the 6 or 7 men in the section as suggested, only 3 are the chaps who attack me?

I have not read the blog and these are my first impressions on what was written on the post.

I also visited my unit recently and asked them the same question and well, I got some real "interesting" answers!

It is a good idea that the Ghataks are HB operable. In fact, they are even now. But what is a light strike vehicle and with which helicopter are they to be heli-lifted?
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Samay »

d
Last edited by RayC on 24 Jun 2009 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: what is 'd'?
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by NRao »

ashish raval
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by ashish raval »

^^ if I were a rioter, I will just wear my goggles/safety glass helmet to save myself from chilli bomb..hehe..although it will work initially after a while people will invent new ways to counter it.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by kancha »

But if you were a 'freedom fighter' holed up in a house in Sopore, I wonder what would you do then? :twisted:

This might help in reducing the instances wherein entire houses had to be brought down to flush out the militants, thus denying a valuable tool for psyops to the napakis.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

deleted for reasons of dexterous use and misuse of the English language and in deference to protests from the BRF fraternity !
Last edited by RayC on 26 Jun 2009 22:32, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Ray
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by AmitR »

kancha wrote:But if you were a 'freedom fighter' holed up in a house in Sopore, I wonder what would you do then? :twisted:

This might help in reducing the instances wherein entire houses had to be brought down to flush out the militants, thus denying a valuable tool for psyops to the napakis.
I believe we already have the stun grenades for that effect. It gives a loud bang, lot of flash and disorients the person and temporarily blinds him.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by kancha »

I agree. But the key word is 'temporary'. The 'Chilli Grenade' :lol: , if it is deployed will have a longer effect. Mind u, a temporarily blinded person can still fire his AK, but a person who is not able to breathe, whose lungs and eyes are on fire due to the chilli powder can be dispatched to his 72 that much more easily and safely by our own forces.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Samay »

bbc .... The chilli, known as Bhut Jolokia, is said to be 1,000 times hotter than commonly used kitchen chilli.
BTW how many of you got a chance to taste it ?
Once I luckily(or unluckily) got a chance to taste it.
that day I was not able to experience any other taste...........
also in addition it acted as a stomach mujahid.........
I guess it would be better to use it in riots as rioters will remember this aansu (tear) grenade for some days at least.(,specially in west bengal where this is a habit.)

and from NHRC pov it should not be used against terrorists as this will give them painful death , which is haram as per sura 23.4 of NHRC .

BTW who knows that it turns out to be too irritating and chocking that terrorists don't die even when shot with many bullets ,until they are permitted to go pakistan for some relief .
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Prem »

Samay wrote:
bbc
and from NHRC pov it should not be used against terrorists as this will give them painful death , which is haram as per sura 23.4 of NHRC .

BTW who knows that it turns out to be too irritating and chocking that terrorists don't die even when shot with many bullets ,until they are permitted to go pakistan for some relief .
Which Pakistan sir , the one which Jinnah founded or the one which Jinna fondled ?
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

Lalmohan wrote:deleted for reasons of dexterous use and misuse of the English language and in deference to protests from the BRF fraternity !
with respect RayC, chlorine and mustard gas were i believe countered by troops in WW1 using their own urine in handkerchiefs and placing over their mouths and noses. not foolproof, but provided some measure of temporary protection. my utterings were not entirely random.
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by atreya »

Just a tit-bit of info, regarding Bhot Jalokia. I had read looong back, that if you eat this chillie (the hottest in the world), you'll get a heart-attack!! :shock: :eek:
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

^^^ Nah you dont get a heart attack. You pray for one to relieve you of the misery...atleast I did. :(( :(( :((
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

Prem wrote:
Which Pakistan sir , the one which Jinnah founded or the one which Jinna fondled ?
:rotfl: If we can find a way to home into the latter one, AoA!
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by derkonig »

Raja Bose wrote:^^^ Nah you dont get a heart attack. You pray for one to relieve you of the misery...atleast I did. :(( :(( :((
But as the name suggests, do you get any visions post the consumption of the chilli?
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by atreya »

Raja Bose wrote:^^^ Nah you dont get a heart attack. You pray for one to relieve you of the misery...atleast I did. :(( :(( :((
:rotfl:
good one!! I sincerely hope, terrorists feel the same way when one of these new grenades is dropped in their hideout!! :lol:
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by ashish raval »

So probably we can all look forward to pain in Ar** bomb for terrorists then. I was wondering if this chilli looses its effect if it is stored for a long time because most chilli's do that. Wierd but good idea to flush rats out of the holes. :D
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

derkonig wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:^^^ Nah you dont get a heart attack. You pray for one to relieve you of the misery...atleast I did. :(( :(( :((
But as the name suggests, do you get any visions post the consumption of the chilli?
Yes visions of relief gushing down pakistan
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by p_saggu »

This is wrt the operations by the french secret service DGSE's operations:

Link
Exploited the network "Nicobar", which facilitated the sale by France to India of forty-three Mirage 2000 fighter jets and the acquisition of information about the type of the armour used on Soviet T-72 tanks
Comments?
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by Victor »

Bhut (bhooth, as in ghost) Jolokia (chilli in Assamese), aka Naga Jolokia, is from Tezpur area of Assam where it is used sparingly even by locals. DRDO had taken charge of it a decade ago when the Scoville unit score measuring its hotness became known IIRC. Nice to know a practical use is finally on the table and will pay huge dividends by capturing rats alive if & when needed. The long R&D timeline may indicate a struggle to bring the effects down to acceptable levels, ie. mustard gas minus the horrible (and illegal) physical disfigurement. Another truly Indiagenius weapon :).
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