Indo-UK: News & Discussion

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Jun 2009 18:11

Nicely articulated. Lets see where things go.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Jun 2009 18:49

Rony wrote:In my opinon, Eurabia is in Indian interests. The more islamic europe becomes, the more in line the Europeans will be to Indian interests. Other wise they will be back to sqare one hypocratically lecturing others about 'human rights', doing equal equal between India and pakis etc while at the same time making sure that their economic and military dominance is not challenged. Think about it, India was ocillating between first and second largest economy of the world even during the not always Hindu friendly Mughal Empire.But that dominance was lost once the europeans entered.If India has to rise again, the west has to go down.Neither China nor a imagined 'ummah' has and will have the ability to replace the west in entirety.This will automatically lead to multi polar world with India again as one of the top two powers.

What if they come together and destroy India.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Jun 2009 18:55

Lalmohan wrote: In a sense the Islamists are rejecting the homogenized American style mall and pop prosperity culture, which everyone else - even sitting in Thailand or India or even China has subscribed to.

Personally I don't think there is anymore ground left to concede to the islamists, anywhere. its already close to the revolutionary tipping point

It is the demographic bulge which is going to spill over for the next 20 years among the Muslim populations in Eurabia, Arfrica and NA.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Jun 2009 19:43

Acharya san,

Let it be. We demographic cassandras will get no traction in some circles who've apparently gamed it all already.

While I'd like to be proved wrong (wouldn't want EU's high tech to fall under islamist hands), I fear for what might happen if the demographic doomsdayers are right after all.

And yes, the total nitemare scenario you paint wherein the folks of the book gang up against whatever remains of us SDREs. Who can say what tomorrow holds?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 13 Jun 2009 20:43

These days newspapers are flooded with ads from National Health Services UK seeking Indian doctors at middle and junior grades and even consultants for a limited period. This is surprising because when in 2006 they changed the law to favour Gora doctors over Indians for jobs in NHS, latter fought a long legal battle , eventually won it but ground reality didn't change since NHS trusts gave first preference to Goras. This is OK considering British have first right on their country but things went grossly wrong at the level of General Medical Council UK. GMC milked Indian doctors to no end and by conducting PLAB (entrance exam to UK) several times in a year they made huge money, but this resulted in massive no of Indian docs in UK unemployed surviving on bare minimum looking for jobs. Also the sudden decision of not employing Indians didn't go down well by a system which nearly survived on overseas doctors for a long time. When this rule came in 2006 many of them returned back to India. This resulted in a void in the system which has worsened over time.
In 2006 it looked now UK has enough doctors of its own but in less than 3 years again NHS is on verge of collapse they still don't have enough doctors to run the show and this has resulted in NHS once again looking towards India. They are so desparate these days that several trusts have got their men camping in major cities of India to get doctors...!
I hope those who are putting applications are aware of all the developments in the past and read the contract very well. May be Govt of India can act here.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Jun 2009 20:51

IndraD, any links for what you assert please, about NHS linked agencies headhunting desi medical talent?
Interesting if true. I do recall the short end of the stick the Indian docs were given from news reports a few yrs ago, though.

Again, moi does hope that GoI does some basic vetting and regulating of this labor export industry (the way it vets and certifies agencies that export labor to the gulf). Just hope Desh and Desis don't endup selling our labor too cheap, again.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 13 Jun 2009 20:59

Dear vsudhir. Please read them:

http://www.zeenews.com/news353292.html

Indian doctors in UK lose legal battle, prepare to return home

http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com ... 743044.cms

Docs-win-battle-as-UK-sheds-visa-bias

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_in ... ve_1082009
Indian doctors in UK get temporary reprieve

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/feb/13docs.htm
Indian docs move court against UK immigration law

In last 6 months alsmot every one who has served NHS UK and has full registration with GMC UK is being contacted by several recruitment agencies. Take a look at this:

http://in.timesjobs.com//
select doctors category in this and pls do a search, this is interesting that NHS UK is not even considering full registration with GMC as basic requirement for job.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Jun 2009 21:28

Thx for the links, IndraD.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 13 Jun 2009 22:19

When Europe becomes Islamic there will be white Muslims and Muslims of other non-white background. The same centuries old European racism will still be around regardless of Islam or no Islam. However, due to being Muslims, these new white Muslims would be embolded and aggressive. Unlike the passive pacifism displayed by the Europeans these days, Muslim whites would give no quarter to demands by African Muslims, Arab Muslims nor Afghan/Paki Muslims.

In our present world, Muslim lands where one group overwhelmingly dominates the rest, there is an enforced stability and peace by authoritarian rule. Otherwise, life cannot function. Where there are multiple groups in more or less equal or semi-equal strengths, constant rivalry for domination does not end. These lands are always in danger of conflagration. Lebanon, Somalia, Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan are some of the examples.

Islamized Europe most probably will have a powerful and quite large white minority Muslims and non-white Muslim majority. This is recipe for major internal disaster. As it is, when there are no Kaffirs to prosecute or kill, Muslims turn on each other with equal fanatism. Again, Pakistan is a great example.

I don't forsee peace coming to these shores for a very long time after Islamization. If they do unite, another round of European colonialism and expansion will occur. This time it is to spread the good word of Allah to all corners of the world. But before they expand on this route, they first would attempt to forcefully and violently clean-up unIslamic practises in all Muslim lands most speacifically in and around the two so called holy places-mecca and Yatrib. Just like the Turks before them, white Muslim Europeans will first try to colonize Arab lands.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 14 Jun 2009 17:19

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=2151817

Asian doctors in the NHS: service and betrayal

Thia is worth reading, very interesting and good.

There was already an official acknowledgement of the roles that these overseas doctors were playing. In a debate in the House of Lords in 1961, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead commented on the fact that:
‘The Health Service would have collapsed if it had not been for the enormous influx from junior doctors from such countries as India and Pakistan.’11
Lord Taylor of Harlow in the same debate said:
‘They are here to provide pairs of hands in the rottenest, worst hospitals in the country because there is nobody else to do it.’

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Jun 2009 22:46

Dead Taliban fighter in Afghanistan had Aston Villa tattoo

We’ve known for a long time that foreign fighters, many with thick Birmingham accents, have been recruited to fight against us for the Taliban.

“Some of the linguistics specialists have picked up West Midland and Manchester accents too.

“But it was a shock to hear that the guys we were fighting against supported the same football clubs as us, and maybe even grew up on the same streets as us.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 15 Jun 2009 13:41

'Britain is full' - Interview : Nick Griffin - BNP - 2009-06-14

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Jun 2009 14:02

Excerpt of portion dealing with the UK from CNN-IBN’s (Devil’s Advocate / Karan Thapar) interview of our Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna:

Published on Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 22:48 ………………..

Karan Thapar: The release of Hafiz Saeed is one setback that has happened, the other is that the United Kingdom has held back consent for declaring Masood Azhar and Azam Cheema terrorists under UN resolution 1267. Do you feel let down by Gordon Brown and David Miliband?

SM Krishna: Well, we have the best of relationship with the United Kingdom and they say they are one with us in fighting terror because terror is a universal phenomenon today.

Karan Thapar: But suddenly on this critical issue they held back consent.

SM Krishna: I think the United Kingdom ought to have been more circumspect in dealing with this particular aspect.

Karan Thapar: So you are disappointed with the United Kingdom?

SM Krishna: Well, I expected something much better from the UK.

Karan Thapar: Have you communicated this to the UK?

SM Krishna: We have our own ways of communicating whatever we feel like through our diplomatic channels.

The complete interview transcript is here:

CNN-IBN

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 15 Jun 2009 17:36

Karan Thapar: The release of Hafiz Saeed is one setback that has happened, the other is that the United Kingdom has held back consent for declaring Masood Azhar and Azam Cheema terrorists under UN resolution 1267. Do you feel let down by Gordon Brown and David Miliband?

Shocking...shocking I tell ya.... who coulda thunk it, eh? And some sopissticated circles circling here some moons ago were all about how much public sympathy ordinary britons had for yindia after Mumbai and all that.... and some of us sceptical SDREs were looking foolish disagreeing with such authoritative sophistication onlee pointing out that the essential character and motivations of the Ukstani establishment haven't changed an iota before or after mumbai....fat good that publick sympathy did us, eh?

SM Krishna: Well, we have the best of relationship with the United Kingdom and they say they are one with us in fighting terror because terror is a universal phenomenon today.

Now that response, unless chankian, from Sri SMK is shocking onlee. Hope our MEA babooze know better than to believe any 'excellent relations with UKstan' BS.

Further, in another 'who-coulda-thunk-it' event, seems the $hits lapped up a new literary tome further exposing the sad circumstances of yindia's slumdawgs. More book award and movie action is promised.... Jai ho and all that.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Jun 2009 03:07

shocking indeed, but perhaps an indication that these two are now confirmed sarkari jehadis, and TSP has traded their safety for baitullah and others who had perhaps reached their drone by date anyway... as ever uk does nothing without the nod or command of unkil, so you can guess who's been trading what with whom

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Jun 2009 03:14

SM Krishna: Well, we have the best of relationship with the United Kingdom and they say they are one with us in fighting terror because terror is a universal phenomenon today.

[/quote]

"They say" they are one with us but do we believe this assertion by them? The white truth is Universal Terrorist Phenomenon dont include terrorism against us Yindoos otherwise they wont be one with Pakis.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 16 Jun 2009 04:16

SM Krishna: Well, we have the best of relationship with the United Kingdom and they say they are one with us in fighting terror because terror is a universal phenomenon today.

Karan Thapar: So you are disappointed with the United Kingdom?
SM Krishna: Well, I expected something much better from the UK.
Karan Thapar: Have you communicated this to the UK?
SM Krishna: We have our own ways of communicating whatever we feel like through our diplomatic channels.

Enough indication by SMK that India does not trust UKstan and aware of its duplicity IMHO. Let us see how policy unfolds.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 23 Jun 2009 00:39

x-post from the ekhanomix D&G thread

Mark Steyn again.... how true is this, btw? Can anyone confirm or disprove the stuff he states about the UKstani NHS?

If you’re a business, when government gives you 2% of your income, it has a veto on 100% of what you do. If you’re an individual, the impact is even starker. Once you have government health care, it can be used to justify almost any restraint on freedom: After all, if the state has to cure you, it surely has an interest in preventing you needing treatment in the first place. That’s the argument behind, for example, mandatory motorcycle helmets, or the creepy teams of government nutritionists currently going door to door in Britain and conducting a “health audit” of the contents of your refrigerator. They’re not yet confiscating your Twinkies; they just want to take a census of how many you have. So you do all this for the “free” health care—and in the end you may not get the “free” health care anyway. Under Britain’s National Health Service, for example, smokers in Manchester have been denied treatment for heart disease, and the obese in Suffolk are refused hip and knee replacements. Patricia Hewitt, the British Health Secretary, says that it’s appropriate to decline treatment on the basis of “lifestyle choices.” Smokers and the obese may look at their gay neighbor having unprotected sex with multiple partners, and wonder why his “lifestyle choices” get a pass while theirs don’t. But that’s the point: Tyranny is always whimsical.

link

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jun 2009 06:07

UKites going Traditional in Current Tough Economic time

Pakistani family’s house in UK set on fire, 5 injured

LONDON: Unidentified men torched the house of a Pakistani family in London on Monday, injuring 5 people, a private TV channel reported. According to the channel, the men threw explosives inside the house through the letterbox, setting off a fire in which five members of the family, including three women, were seriously injured. They have now been hospitalised. The channel quoted police sources as saying that the attack could have been a case of ethnically-motivated arson. daily times monitor
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2009_pg1_2

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 23 Jun 2009 06:37

UKites going Traditional in Current Tough Economic time

Pakistani family’s house in UK set on fire, 5 injured

Apt. The brrrits did after all set fire to the subcontinental colony 60 yrs ago.

And tomorrow, just to maintain ==, the perps may do the same to an Yindian phamily's home. Met police can outdo their ozzie counterfarts after that downplaying racism as a motive and asking the victims to be more careful and less 'colored' in their outlook for their own safety, I guess. Jai ho and all that.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Jun 2009 03:08

not able to find this arson story in the news, but its entirely possible, but then so is a 'green on green' incident related to all manner of other things. the only other news i find from monday is...

Taxi driver rapes male passenger

and in it...

The rapist was described as being in his late 20s or early 30s, and dark skinned.

He was about 5ft 9in tall and slightly overweight with short brown or black hair and unshaven with a beard and brown eyes. He was wearing a brown leather jacket and a dark green jumper.

knowing manchester cabbies... the ethnic possibilities are fairly limited to a subset of our favourite cousins

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jun 2009 05:50

David Milli-Bond's family background.It could explain his irrational behaviour as For.Sec.,tilting at windmills around the world.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 564505.ece

David Miliband visits family grave in Poland
(Lefteris Pitarakis/AP)
80 members of Mr Miliband's family died in the Holocaust
Kamil Tchorek in Warsaw
David Miliband has thanked Poles for saving his Jewish mother’s life during the Holocaust, an act to which he owes his life.

"My mother was born here, her life was saved by those who risked theirs sheltering her from Nazi oppression," the Foreign Secretary said on an official visit to Poland yesterday.

Mr Miliband , who lost many family members to the Nazis, broke off from his official visit to pay respects at his family tomb in the Jewish Cemetery in Warsaw after meeting museum officials at Brandt Square, the leafy park soon to be the location of Warsaw’s Museum of the History of Polish Jews.

"He’s gone to visit the family grave," Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett, leader of the museum’s Development Team, said. "This is quite a homecoming."

Related Links
Miliband a 'waste of space' over hostage talks
Honoured after 70 years: man who saved thousands
Inside the brotherhood: David and Ed Miliband

Mr Miliband’s Jewish mother, Marion Kozak, is from Czestochowa in southern Poland, from where she emigrated in the 1950s. His paternal grandparents were also Polish Jews and emigrated after fighting for the Soviets in the Polish-Soviet War of 1919-21.

When Hitler and Stalin occupied Poland in 1939, 80 members of Mr Miliband’s family were killed in the ensuing Holocaust, many of them at the German extermination camp of Auschwitz.

"I am fortunate in that it is my parents' generation that encountered fascism, not me," Mr Miliband said this month. "But when I say [the BNP] are the descendants of the people we fought in the 1940s, I am thinking of my Dad and my Mum and my relatives."

In a speech later in the day, Mr Miliband spoke of the "deep and real bonds" between Poland and the UK, and said he considers himself one of the million of Britons with Polish blood.

"Jews and Poles are becoming more aware of the bonds they have with one another," Ms Kirshenblatt-Gimblett said. "There is a stereotype among some Jews that Poles are and always have been anti-Semitic, which is nonsense."

The American historian Richard C. Lukas has estimated that up to 3 million Polish Gentiles were in some way involved in rescuing Jews during the Holocaust, which may have led to about 450,000 Jewish lives being saved. Israel has awarded more than 6,000 Righteous Among the Nations medals to Poles, the highest number given to any nation.

About 70 per cent of American Jews and 60 per cent of Israelis have roots in Poland, according to Tad Taube, of the Taube Foundation for Jewish Life and Culture.

Poland is currently experiencing a "Jewish Revival", embodied in such events as the annual Jewish Culture Festival in Krakow, which starts this weekend.

Representatives of the Foreign Secretary declined to add detail to his mother's war story.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Jun 2009 11:51

Philip wrote:David Milli-Bond's family background.It could explain his irrational behaviour as For.Sec.,tilting at windmills around the world.

Philip,
a man who is the son of a Holocaust surviving Jew is Islam-appeasisist, Pakistan-appeasisist, Russia-basher to the extreme. Many Muslims adore Hitler for what he did to the Jews, It was Russian forces that marched into Poland, and put an end to Nazi-concentration camps.

To be honest, Dawood Mulli-in-Bund seems more and more like someone who was recruited by the Atlantists-Islamists in the enemy camp.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 25 Jun 2009 14:34

Britain is Euro cocaine capital

Link
The url leads to The Sun, so may not be safe for work. Proceed at your own risk

More than ONE MILLION Brits use the drug regularly - making us the biggest market for the drug in Europe.

The UN report - produced by its Office on Drugs and Crime - also reveals that Britain is one of Europe's biggest markets for a host of other drugs.

There are 434,000 heroin users in the UK - the highest number in Europe.

Britain has more than TWICE as many smack addicts as France - and nearly three times as many as in Germany.

And over the last decade, Britain tops the table for seizures of amphetamines.

A total of 17.8 tonnes of the pills have been uncovered by the authorities in the UK.

The Netherlands came second with 10.6 tonnes, followed by Belgium with just 4.9 tonnes.

Britain also has 400,000 hard-core "problem" drug users - the biggest number in Europe.

Around 74,000 - around one in five - live in London.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 27 Jun 2009 04:31

x-post

ramana wrote:Thanks Gerard!

X-posted...

When Pigs Fly–and Scold: Brits Lecturing Sri Lanka!
By Gary Brecher

...

OK, done. Now you can all pass around that amnesia gun.

http://exiledonline.com/when-pigs-fly-a ... sri-lanka/
It applies 100 percent to India too.

Wow. Thx for posting.

Next time you see the Ekhanomist mouth tut-tuts against PRC deriding its

extreme nationalism fueleed by a sense of victimization and historical grievance

know the Great $hits are on the backfoot and $hitting brix for a change.

China and India as well as a host of ex-colonies have good reasons to nurse a total lack of goodwill w.r.t UKstan. UKstan knows this and bows before displayed power - like when they last yr quietly signed away any claims on Tibet to PRC in exchange for a few billion USD in gilt purchases onlee.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 27 Jun 2009 10:06

My hunch is that the former colonies decided to keep good relations with UK, simply because for many Independence was like falling into cold water. Suddenly they were 'masters' of their own destiny but in a scary global environment, with the second world war just having ended, the tug-of-war between USA and Soviet Union just beginning, and a new world order being set, partly under the aegis of United Nations. Also there was the question of trade, with most of it previously being conducted through the colonial power. One still needed foreign exchange. There were many devils you did not know.
UK was the devil one knew, and one probably hoped that a shared history would make the devil you knew, support you in international fora and trade. That was the reason, one wished to normalize one's relations with UK post-colonialism and not to pick a fight on that score.

Since then much water has flowed down the Ganga and the Thames. UK is on its way to becoming a financial mess, being popped up by loans from abroad. Its manufacturing is gone. In another 5 years, it may overtake Italy on its way down. In another 15 it could be a third-world country.

The former colonies do not need Britain anymore. Britain cannot give anybody any further respite. Its special status for the USA is on the decline as well, and in an expanded EU, it would not form the core.

There is nothing wrong in now pouncing upon Britain and make it account for all its colonial sins, to compensate the country for all its atrocities.

Full compensation for colonial follies should now become the prime issue of discussion and negotiation between India and UK.

That should serve as the basis for keeping all Western countries on their toes. Britain, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Italy should all be targeted by the various ex-colonies. All the mischief and atrocities the colonial powers committed should now be brought into the public domain and discussed. No reason to hide anything.

This will keep the Europeans on their toes, it would bring down this hot-air balloon of morality, human-rights, non-proliferation, etc. of the Europeans. It would send a signal to the current super-power that it should tread carefully lest the weaker powers of today extract their revenge tomorrow.

There is no more reason to keep quite.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 28 Jun 2009 15:29

got this on email

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 28 Jun 2009 15:44

^^^^

Absolute gold ... should be at the start of this thread.
Added later: Saw ArmenT's link below
also found this on google.

http://www.sacw.net/spip.php?page=impri ... rticle=869
The most insidious part of the BJP Manifesto’s preamble is a fake quote attributed to Thomas Babington Macaulay. According to Mr. Joshi: “India’s prosperity, its talents and the state of its high moral society can be best understood by what Thomas Babington Macaulay stated in his speech of February 02, 1835, in the British Parliament. ‘I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief, such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such high caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage…”

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 28 Jun 2009 16:03

^^^^
Fake.
http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/06/26/ ... ays-quote/

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 28 Jun 2009 19:45

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
Fake.
http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/06/26/ ... ays-quote/

Thanks. Interestingly I got this while google searching
http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_060206.htm

The “drain of wealth” from India to Britain during the two centuries of colonial rule was very real, very substantial and there are strong reasons to believe that India may have looked significantly different (and far better) economically and socially had it not been for the two centuries of British rule.

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 28 Jun 2009 19:55

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
Fake.
http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/06/26/ ... ays-quote/

***** Excerpts from Michel Danino’s email *****�

“Respected friends,
�
Permit me to point out that this quotation of Lord Macaulay is a spurious one, faked in recent years and massively circulated on the Internet (even Dr Abdul Kalam put it on his presidential website at some point).
�
The quotation is a fake one because:

1. No one has been able to give a proper reference for it, pointing to an original source of Macaulay’s speeches or writings.
2. Macaulay was not in England on the purported date of this “speech in Parliament” but in India.
3. In fact the date (2 February 1835) is the date of his famous Minute, which was aimed at convincing the colonial authorities that English education was the ideal for India, and not an education in Indian languages as a group of Orientalists (including Prinsep) wanted. I attach the Minute’s full text.
4. The very text of the alleged quote could never have been written by Macaulay. “India’s spiritual and cultural heritage” is a phrase he would never have used: he denied the very existence — or at least value — of such a heritage, as his Minute makes clear again and again. Nor would he have acknowledged Indians’ “caliber” or spoken of India’s “old and ancient education system” (were it only for the bad English of the last phrase).
5. Finally, the question of “ever conquering this country” had no meaning in 1835, when Britain was in nearly full control of the subcontinent.

The alleged quotation is a poor fabrication. Please do not circulate it without due warning. On the other hand, it would be worthwhile to study Macaulay’s Minute and to generate a debate on what India has done in the 60 years of her independence to reform her educational system.”

***** End *****

Michel added that:

“Macaulay had no intention whatsoever to “break the very backbone of India”, but was convinced that Indians (both Hindus & Muslims) were steeped in hopeless superstition, and that English education was the only way to bring them out of this dark stagnation. That was the usual colonial conceit, but he sincerely wanted to help Indians (which goes to show that sincerity is good only if enlightened !)”

Thanks a lot Michel, for setting the record straight.

From :

Imagined communities {**Read Online** : Google Book}
By Benedict Anderson

---

Pages : 90 - 91

Download :

Imagined Communities - Benedict Anderson
Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism (Paperback)

# Publisher: Verso; Revised edition (July 1991)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 0860915468
# ISBN-13: 978-0860915461

-----

India As A Secular State (1963) {**Read Online (Chapter 12 : EDUCATION AND RELIGION )**}
Author: Smith, Donald Eugene
Subject: RELIGION. THEOLOGY; Prehistoric and primitive religions
Publisher: Princeton University Press
Year : 1963
Language: English
Call number: 33124
Book contributor: Osmania University

Txt Version (1.3 Mb)
PDF (35 Mb)

PS : I've searched Macaulay's writings (*not indepth*) but his attitude and motivations cannot be potrayed as being born out of 'benevolence', contrary to the spin.. Although the dates and the place attributed to the above quote are wrong, the message and intent remains. IMO.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Jun 2009 20:50

pgbhat wrote:^^^^
Absolute gold ... should be at the start of this thread.
Added later: Saw ArmenT's link below
also found this on google.
http://www.sacw.net/spip.php?page=impri ... rticle=869
The most insidious part of the BJP Manifesto’s preamble is a fake quote attributed to Thomas Babington Macaulay. According to Mr. Joshi: “India’s prosperity, its talents and the state of its high moral society can be best understood by what Thomas Babington Macaulay stated in his speech of February 02, 1835, in the British Parliament. ‘I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief, such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such high caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage…”

Lot of false and fake things are floating around. If you look at the history books and other British colonial information before the independence and after; the Congress party quotes lot of the same Thomas Babington Macaulay. Most of the history books have been written during the Congress rule and revised many times..

Only in 2001 we had such books as Mike Davis- Late Victorian Holocausts: El Niño Famines and the Making of the Third World (2001) - which gives the true picture of the British rule in India. None of the Indian history books give detailed
description of the status of the people in the 1700s and early 1800s

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 Jun 2009 20:59

Defence black hole 'may finish Trident'

They argue that Britain should no longer struggle to maintain a full range of defence capability like the US and instead consider scrapping up to £24bn of future "big ticket" projects - including two new aircraft carriers, the F35 joint strike fighters designed to fly from them, six new Type 45 destroyers, four new Astute hunter-killer submarines and the replacement of the Vanguard submarines carrying Trident.

Row after Islam cleric converts schoolboy on Birmingham street

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Jun 2009 21:01

Tilak wrote:

PS : I've searched Macaulay's writings (*not indepth*) but his attitude and motivations cannot be potrayed as being born out of 'benevolence', contrary to the spin.. Although the dates and the place attributed to the above quote are wrong, the message and intent remains. IMO.

It is not about what he said mostly but the EIC company policies and their influence that brought change inside the society.
Read about all the policies of the company till 1857. After that the Crown took over and continued most of what was being done before that. It took about a century to change the economic system of the country.
The three presidencies and the western education inside the country changed the Indian elite forever.

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 28 Jun 2009 21:10

Critical and Historical Essays Volume 1
by Thomas Babington Macaulay

Some Excerpts :

His competitor was a Hindoo Brahmin whose name has by a terrible
and melancholy event, been inseparably associated with that of
Warren Hastings, the Maharajah Nuncomar. This man had played an
important part in all the revolutions which, since the time of
Surajah Dowlah, had taken place in Bengal. To the consideration
which in that country belongs to high and pure caste, he added
the weight which is derived from wealth, talents, and experience.
Of his moral character it is difficult to give a notion to those
who are acquainted with human nature only as it appears in our
island. What the Italian is to the Englishman, what the Hindoo is
to the Italian, what the Bengalee is to other Hindoos, that was
Nuncomar to other Bengalees. The physical organisation of the
Bengalee is feeble even to effeminacy. He lives in a constant
vapour bath. His pursuits are sedentary, his limbs delicate, his
movements languid. During many ages he has been trampled upon by
men of bolder and more hardy breeds. Courage, independence,
veracity, are qualities to which his constitution and his
situation are equally unfavourable. His mind bears a singular
analogy to his body. It is weak even to helplessness for purposes
of manly resistance; but its suppleness and its tact move the
children of sterner climates to admiration not unmingled with
contempt. All those arts which are the natural defence of the
weak are more familiar to this subtle race than to the Ionian of
the time of Juvenal, or to the Jew of the dark ages. What the
horns are to the buffalo, what the paw is to the tiger, what the
sting is to the bee, what beauty, according to the old Greek
song, is to woman, deceit is to the Bengalee. Large promises,
smooth excuses, elaborate tissues of circumstantial falsehood,
chicanery, perjury, forgery, are the weapons, offensive and
defensive, of the people of the Lower Ganges. All those millions
do not furnish one sepoy to the armies of the Company. But as
userers, as money-changers, as sharp legal practitioners, no
class of human beings can bear a comparison with them. With all
his softness, the Bengalee is by no means placable in his
enmities or prone to pity. The pertinacity with which he adheres
to his purposes yields only to the immediate pressure of fear.
Nor does he lack a certain kind of courage which is often wanting
to his masters. To inevitable evils he is sometimes found to
oppose a passive fortitude, such as the Stoics attributed to
their ideal sage. An European warrior who rushes on a battery of
cannon with a loud hurrah, will sometimes shriek under the
surgeon's knife, and fall in an agony of despair at the sentence
of death. But the Bengalee, who would see his country overrun,
his house laid in ashes, his children murdered or dishonoured,
without having the spirit to strike one blow, has yet been known
to endure torture with the firmness of Mucius, and to mount the
scaffold with the steady step and even pulse of Algernon Sydney.

-----------

Such or nearly such was the change which passed on the Mogul
empire during the forty years which followed the death of
Aurungzebe. A succession of nominal sovereigns, sunk in indolence
and debauchery, sauntered away life in secluded palaces, chewing
bang, fondling concubines, and listening to buffoons. A
succession of ferocious invaders descended through the western
passes, to prey on the defenceless wealth of Hindostan. A Persian
conqueror crossed the Indus, marched through the gates of Delhi,
and bore away in triumph those treasures of which the
magnificence had astounded Roe and Bernier, the Peacock Throne,
on which the richest jewels of Golconda had been disposed by the
most skilful hands of Europe, and the inestimable Mountain of
Light, which, after many strange vicissitudes, lately shone in
the bracelet of Runjeet Sing, and is now destined to adorn the
hideous idol of Orissa. The Afghan soon followed to complete the
work of the devastation which the Persian had begun. The warlike
tribes of Rajpootana, threw off the Mussulman yoke. A band of
mercenary soldiers occupied Rohilcund. The Seiks ruled or the
Indus. The Jauts spread dismay along the Jumna. The highlands
which border on the western sea-coast of India
poured forth a yet more formidable race, a race which was long
the terror of every native power, and which, after many desperate
and doubtful struggles, yielded only to the fortune and genius of
England. It was under the reign of Aurungzebe that this wild clan
of plunderers first descended from their mountains; and soon
after his death, every corner of his wide empire learned to
tremble at the mighty name of the Mahrattas. Many fertile
viceroyalties were entirely subdued by them. Their dominions
stretched across the peninsula from sea to sea. Mahratta captains
reigned at Poonah, at Gualior, in Guzerat, in Berar, and in
Tanjore. Nor did they, though they had become great sovereigns,
therefore cease to be freebooters. They still retained the
predatory habits of their forefathers. Every region which was not
subject to their rule was wasted by their incursions. Wherever
their kettle-drums were heard, the peasant threw his bag of rice
on his shoulder, hid his small savings in his girdle, and fled
with his wife and children to the mountains or the jungles, to
the milder neighbourhood of the hyaena and the tiger. Many
provinces redeemed their harvests by the payment of an annual
ransom. Even the wretched phantom who still bore the imperial
title stooped to pay this ignominious black-mail. The camp-fires
of one rapacious leader were seen from the walls of the palace of
Delhi. Another, at the head of his innumerable cavalry, descended
year after year on the rice-fields of Bengal. Even the European
factors trembled for their magazines. Less than a hundred years
ago, it was thought necessary to fortify Calcutta against the
horsemen of Berar, and the name of the Mahratta ditch still
preserves the memory of the danger.

/OT

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 28 Jun 2009 21:18

RajeshA,

The former colonies do not need Britain anymore. Britain cannot give anybody any further respite. Its special status for the USA is on the decline as well, and in an expanded EU, it would not form the core.

There is nothing wrong in now pouncing upon Britain and make it account for all its colonial sins, to compensate the country for all its atrocities.

Full compensation for colonial follies should now become the prime issue of discussion and negotiation between India and UK.

That should serve as the basis for keeping all Western countries on their toes. Britain, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Italy should all be targeted by the various ex-colonies. All the mischief and atrocities the colonial powers committed should now be brought into the public domain and discussed. No reason to hide anything.

This will keep the Europeans on their toes, it would bring down this hot-air balloon of morality, human-rights, non-proliferation, etc. of the Europeans. It would send a signal to the current super-power that it should tread carefully lest the weaker powers of today extract their revenge tomorrow.

There is no more reason to keep quite.

No illusions here but reparations etc is a bridge too far. All I want to see is an expression of regret (however insincere) if not a formal apology for the historical wrongs done by the UKstanis in India. Then can start the process of healing and repair of the distorted history and stolen heritage of Bharatvarsha.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 29 Jun 2009 06:09

Benefit payouts will exceed income tax revenue
.

The state will pay out more in social security benefits than it raises from workers in income tax this year, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

The stark evidence of the growing imbalance between what the Government raises and what it spends is likely to intensify the political row over the public finances and may strengthen calls for cuts in spending.

uh-oh. Long live the Mervyn King, I guess.

bart · Post by **bart** » 29 Jun 2009 10:27

vsudhir wrote:RajeshA,

The former colonies do not need Britain anymore. Britain cannot give anybody any further respite. Its special status for the USA is on the decline as well, and in an expanded EU, it would not form the core.

There is nothing wrong in now pouncing upon Britain and make it account for all its colonial sins, to compensate the country for all its atrocities.

Full compensation for colonial follies should now become the prime issue of discussion and negotiation between India and UK.

That should serve as the basis for keeping all Western countries on their toes. Britain, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Italy should all be targeted by the various ex-colonies. All the mischief and atrocities the colonial powers committed should now be brought into the public domain and discussed. No reason to hide anything.

This will keep the Europeans on their toes, it would bring down this hot-air balloon of morality, human-rights, non-proliferation, etc. of the Europeans. It would send a signal to the current super-power that it should tread carefully lest the weaker powers of today extract their revenge tomorrow.

There is no more reason to keep quite.
No illusions here but reparations etc is a bridge too far. All I want to see is an expression of regret (however insincere) if not a formal apology for the historical wrongs done by the UKstanis in India. Then can start the process of healing and repair of the distorted history and stolen heritage of Bharatvarsha.

At the very least, I would like them to stop being holocaust deniers and glorifying colonialism and how they did a favor to India by civilizing us. Majority of the population seem to hold that POV and mainstream media esp Times/Telegraph actively peddle it.

bart · Post by **bart** » 29 Jun 2009 10:48

IndraD wrote:

got this on email

Even if it was a real quote, we don't need that turd to make ourselves believe that our civilization was awesome, we have got to come out of that attitude of dhimmitude where we need a pat of approval from a gora to feel good about ourselves. This is really nauseating and permeates every aspect of our lives, for example the easiest way for a mediocre gora cricketer to get popular in India and perhaps get an IPL contract is to say that Sachin Tendulkar is the best player in the world.

Tilak wrote:Critical and Historical Essays Volume 1
by Thomas Babington Macaulay

Some Excerpts :

What the Italian is to the Englishman, what the Hindoo is
to the Italian, what the Bengalee is to other Hindoos, that was
Nuncomar to other Bengalees. The physical organisation of the
Bengalee is feeble even to effeminacy. He lives in a constant
vapour bath. His pursuits are sedentary, his limbs delicate, his
movements languid. During many ages he has been trampled upon by
men of bolder and more hardy breeds. Courage, independence,
veracity, are qualities to which his constitution and his
situation are equally unfavourable. His mind bears a singular
analogy to his body. It is weak even to helplessness for purposes
of manly resistance; but its suppleness and its tact move the
children of sterner climates to admiration not unmingled with
contempt. All those arts which are the natural defence of the
weak are more familiar to this subtle race than to the Ionian of
the time of Juvenal, or to the Jew of the dark ages. What the
horns are to the buffalo, what the paw is to the tiger, what the
sting is to the bee, what beauty, according to the old Greek
song, is to woman, deceit is to the Bengalee. Large promises,
smooth excuses, elaborate tissues of circumstantial falsehood,
chicanery, perjury, forgery, are the weapons, offensive and
defensive, of the people of the Lower Ganges. All those millions
do not furnish one sepoy to the armies of the Company. But as
userers, as money-changers, as sharp legal practitioners, no
class of human beings can bear a comparison with them. With all
his softness, the Bengalee is by no means placable in his
enmities or prone to pity. The pertinacity with which he adheres
to his purposes yields only to the immediate pressure of fear.
Nor does he lack a certain kind of courage which is often wanting
to his masters. To inevitable evils he is sometimes found to
oppose a passive fortitude, such as the Stoics attributed to
their ideal sage. An European warrior who rushes on a battery of
cannon with a loud hurrah, will sometimes shriek under the
surgeon's knife, and fall in an agony of despair at the sentence
of death. But the Bengalee, who would see his country overrun,
his house laid in ashes, his children murdered or dishonoured,
without having the spirit to strike one blow, has yet been known
to endure torture with the firmness of Mucius, and to mount the
scaffold with the steady step and even pulse of Algernon Sydney.

/OT

Kind of explains why Saurav Ganguly gets their goat so much.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Jun 2009 11:49

vsudhir wrote:RajeshA,

The former colonies do not need Britain anymore. Britain cannot give anybody any further respite. Its special status for the USA is on the decline as well, and in an expanded EU, it would not form the core.

There is nothing wrong in now pouncing upon Britain and make it account for all its colonial sins, to compensate the country for all its atrocities.

Full compensation for colonial follies should now become the prime issue of discussion and negotiation between India and UK.

That should serve as the basis for keeping all Western countries on their toes. Britain, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Italy should all be targeted by the various ex-colonies. All the mischief and atrocities the colonial powers committed should now be brought into the public domain and discussed. No reason to hide anything.

This will keep the Europeans on their toes, it would bring down this hot-air balloon of morality, human-rights, non-proliferation, etc. of the Europeans. It would send a signal to the current super-power that it should tread carefully lest the weaker powers of today extract their revenge tomorrow.

There is no more reason to keep quite.
No illusions here but reparations etc is a bridge too far. All I want to see is an expression of regret (however insincere) if not a formal apology for the historical wrongs done by the UKstanis in India. Then can start the process of healing and repair of the distorted history and stolen heritage of Bharatvarsha.

Vsudhir ji,
Expressions of regret are by a few and momentary and fleeting. Such expressions have been taking place every once in a while from this corner or that, but that did not stop Dawood Mulli-in-Bund to come to India, treat our leadership like little schoolboys, and lecture us on Kashmir.

If we want to change this behavior of Britain, we have to keep it for ever on the defensive. That means one keeps on pounding the country with historical charges of murder, subjugation, theft, etc. and keep on forcing the head of the country down into the ground.

64 years after the WW II ended, the Germans are still taken to task for their historical wrongs, and they are taken to task by all the sundry, by the Jews, by the Poles, by the Russians, by the Americans, by the Brits, by the French, by the Dutch, etc. etc. The Germans still have to pay the most into the EU budget, all out of a sense of historical sins. They still have to treat the Jews with kid gloves and keep on paying compensations.

One just has to look at how PRC has treated Japan. Can the Japanese ever think of going to China and lecturing them on Taiwan, or on Tibet, or on human rights, or anything else?! Never! PRC has been able to cower down Japan for an eternity. Japan has been sending aid to PRC in the billions to win back Chinese favor and forgiveness. But the Chinese have decided that to not be too forgiving, because that keeps the pressure on Japan. Have we no self-esteem? Weren't the hardships of our grandparents and their parents and their parents not real? {Simply rhetorical, not directed against you vsudhir ji}

One could contest that Germany and Japan were defeated powers, and as such were far more accommodating of other's charges. After Iraq, Afghanistan and the Financial Crisis, Britain too is becoming a defeated power, and that is why now is the time to "Ek dhakka aur!".

Expressions of Regret a la Britain, is a momentary thing and would not change their behavior. They have to be kept under incessant accusations and on the defensive for ever. Reparations and compensation is only a tool, a means to an end.

In the end, one does not negotiate with them about reparations simply to get reparations, but to keep them on the defensive. Do you think, Dawood Mulli-in-Bund would be lecturing us on Kashmir, if at every meet, we were demanding reparations and compensations and charging them in public? The more the charges, the more vocal the charges, the more the British will be willing to see the world India's way, especially questions of Kashmir! Wouldn't you like to see the British owning up to their follies on the Indian Subcontinent? Follies like giving away Chittagong to Bangladesh, or like allowing NWFP to become part of Pakistan, or letting Pakistan invade Baluchistan?

The next step is for Britain to start questioning the integrity of Pakistan and Bangladesh! For this the British need to be treated like scoundrels and criminals!

No need to forget. No need to forgive. But let's deal with them nevertheless in a mature way, and force them to make strategic concessions from being Pakistan appeasers to following India's agenda.