Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jun 2009 01:13

sorry boss scanner is broken. couldn't locate any net version of the newspaper.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Jun 2009 05:42

Here is the COBRA!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Jun 2009 05:49

Thanks Ray

good to see them not overloaded.

light and motivated

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2009 06:39

seems be a carrying 8 mags for the ak. I would like the concept of a ultra-secret vympel type unit going after the maoist leaders and financiers on a selective basis. a mix of shooting work and intel gathering.

cut the head of the snake.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Jun 2009 07:09

seems he has an INSAS -

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 29 Jun 2009 07:20

some more COBRA info. I hope it was not posted before. Guerrillas wary of CRPF Cobra strike in jungle lair

Cobra is perhaps the best-equipped paramilitary unit in the country, set up with a grant of Rs 1300 crore from the central government. They have an enviable arsenal, almost matching a regular infantry unit light mortars, machine guns, rocket launchers, INSAS rifles, FN35 and Glock pistols, rapid-fire Heckler and Koch MP5 submachine guns, and even Carl Gustav 84 mm recoilless rifles, which can bring down walls and houses. But what really set the Cobras apart are two things hi-tech electronic surveillance equipment and a well trained sniper team, armed with Dragunov, Mauser SP66 and Heckler & Koch MSG-90 sniper rifles.

"Remember, commandos fight dirty," said an army paratrooper

Ankit

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 29 Jun 2009 10:26

its INSAS not AK

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 29 Jun 2009 10:42

"Sniper rifles like the M-16"??

And the picture shows an INSAS, not an AK

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 29 Jun 2009 10:44

some more news about SF----> Army units in Goa to get special training

“Army units based in places like Goa, Ahmedabad, Jaipur, Jodhpur, Agra, Chandigarh, Surat, Vadodara, Jamnagar, etc, are being trained to deal with hostage rescue operations,” Army sources said. The Army has assigned its Special Forces (SF) units to train personnel from regular infantry units posted in these places.

Ankit

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 29 Jun 2009 19:49

Cobra is perhaps the best-equipped paramilitary unit in the country, set up with a grant of Rs 1300 crore from the central government. They have an enviable arsenal, almost matching a regular infantry unit light mortars, machine guns, rocket launchers, INSAS rifles, FN35 and Glock pistols, rapid-fire Heckler and Koch MP5 submachine guns, and even Carl Gustav 84 mm recoilless rifles, which can bring down walls and houses. But what really set the Cobras apart are two things hi-tech electronic surveillance equipment and a well trained sniper team, armed with Dragunov, Mauser SP66 and Heckler & Koch MSG-90 sniper rifles.

sounds great but who wants to bet you will find them armed only with AK's or INSAS (like our SF folks who are supposed to have all sorts of AR's at the disposal).

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 29 Jun 2009 20:09

Are you saying that report is wrong and they do not actually have those weapons? Could you please provide a source. Our SF does not only use AK and INSAS.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jun 2009 21:02

(like our SF folks who are supposed to have all sorts of AR's at the disposal).

and they do have all sorts of weapons at disposal. if that is the standard you are expecting I'll be more than happy.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Jun 2009 21:27

What is wrong with the SF/ Cobra etc being equipped with INSAS?

Lousy weapon?

If Arjun is fabulous and everyone is cussed and in the Russian lobby, then why are you all against INSAS? INSAS is the best India and DRDO has produced.

Look at the end result and not at the shiny glossies!

Israeli weapons are better, right? Then are you in the IAI lobby?

Leave it to the people whose life is at stake!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Jun 2009 21:30

err who's the "you all".

Hope its not me.

All I did was correct Singha.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Jun 2009 21:32

Surya wrote:err who's the "you all".

Hope its not me.

All I did was correct Singha.

I am not meaning anyone as such, but the general observation of everyone in govt and the Army being influenced by the 'foreign hand' and not allowing indeginous expertise to develop!

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 30 Jun 2009 01:52

shameekg wrote:Are you saying that report is wrong and they do not actually have those weapons? Could you please provide a source. Our SF does not only use AK and INSAS.

Shameek and Rahul, understand one thing my rant is not at the personnel but at the equipment provided. It is also not about the quality of the AK or INSAS but simply at the assumption that they have access to all types of SMG's and Assault rifles. Apart from AK-47, INSAS, Vz's and recently TAVORS i have not seen them with any other weapons (not talking about grenade launchers or carl gustav's)
Even Capt Harshan's father from 2 para once openly complained about it after his son's death. Its feels great on paper that they have access to all weapons but reality is quite different.
(Do exclude SPG from this discussion, they were re-armed with the FN F2000 recently onleeee

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 30 Jun 2009 02:21

Ray Sahib, the truth is that there is a feeling that some elements have unfairly ruled against domestic products vs foreign ones. The Arjun, the Metamorphosis 155/130 upgrade and the OFBs 120mm Long-Range Mortar are three examples.

Similarly, the INSAS was put through intense trials that the US M-16 family and possibly even the Tavor could not pass !

That being said, SF units in India have always been able to select more or less what they've wanted - foreign or domestic.

The issue has always been that of organization and that of training for an appropriate role so that they could fulfill their enormous potential. That and political support of course.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jun 2009 07:43

ssmitra wrote: Shameek and Rahul, understand one thing my rant is not at the personnel but at the equipment provided. It is also not about the quality of the AK or INSAS but simply at the assumption that they have access to all types of SMG's and Assault rifles. Apart from AK-47, INSAS, Vz's and recently TAVORS i have not seen them with any other weapons (not talking about grenade launchers or carl gustav's)
Even Capt Harshan's father from 2 para once openly complained about it after his son's death. Its feels great on paper that they have access to all weapons but reality is quite different.
(Do exclude SPG from this discussion, they were re-armed with the FN F2000 recently onleeee

I'm not talking of what is on paper but rather what SF has been observed with. it might be that you are talking about the paras and this might be true for them.
to add to your list, MP-5's, SIG SG-551 SWAT carbines and these are only the AR/SMG/CQW. that is quite a list ! I think there's a limit on how many different types of weapons an unit can use and still maintain a level of competence and co-ordination.

it's not a question of how many types of weapons a force operates but if they can get any type they need to fulfill their roles.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 30 Jun 2009 11:05

Frankly it is heartening to see Indian Police (some), Para military forces like CRPF and the army now weilding a very Indian designed and Indian made weapon - INSAS. That is the best thing about something indigenous - we can make it in any numbers and use it wherever we want.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 30 Jun 2009 11:23

Very old news..sorry if posted already

Presentation of the Digital Night Vision Goggle (DNVG) in India, April 2008

If anti-naxal forces of India have bought these.....maoists to gaye bhaad mein....

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 30 Jun 2009 21:42

First regional NSG hub to be operational in Mumbai today
http://www.ddinews.gov.in/National/Nati ... s/dsqw.htm

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 30 Jun 2009 22:38

GoI is starting multiple Special Forces groups and expanding existing ones for internal security/policing work. I think it is a step in wrong direction. Law and order is not a federal issue but a state issue as per constitution so the whole system is setup that way. Stationing 3000 NSG in Kolkata hub to cover entire estern india against slippery terrorists is a waste. By the time these folks get to the crime scene it would have been all over.

Better approach IMO would be to provide that money and help to state govts to raise special police forces, ant-terrorist forces and SWAT teams in every major city. GoI can develop a standardized template for state govts to follow. Armed force's (and GoI's) role should be restricted to helping state govt in raising/training these forces. A centralized model is bound to have problems while a localized force would have better chances of success. Excess manpower can be provided by CRPF on case by case basis or in major emergency. I do not think central forces can be first responders for terror attacks.

Since GoI is footing the bill (and state govt doesn't want to spend money) it wants to have control over these forces. Classic nata/babu/brass empire expansion syndrome…....

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 30 Jun 2009 22:50

Katare wrote:GoI is starting multiple Special Forces groups and expanding existing ones for internal security/policing work. I think it is a step in wrong direction.
.....
Since GoI is footing the bill (and state govt doesn't want to spend money) it wants to have control over these forces. Classic nata/babu/brass empire expansion syndrome…....

State govt neither have the kind of money to spend on security forces nor the will to modernize them.
Had they had the will Indian police force would not be using 303 rifles to this day. Also, the states ruled by communists and separatists have little desire to make any difference. Police for most political parties are nothing more than personal body guards. Making army do the counter insurgency operations will only lead to fatigue and more attrition.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 03 Jul 2009 19:33

Railways announce raising commando battalions
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... battalions

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Jul 2009 19:49

From indifference towards our SF, our neats now seemd to have turned the other way around with every tom, dick and harry neta proposing "commando" battalions for everything under the sun.

Even this over indulgence towards the SF is a bit dangerous.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Jul 2009 20:52

sum wrote:From indifference towards our SF, our neats now seemd to have turned the other way around with every tom, dick and harry neta proposing "commando" battalions for everything under the sun.

Even this over indulgence towards the SF is a bit dangerous.

Sum ji, if on being tagged as 'Commando', certain elements of security forces are funded for better equipment and training (without affecting the remaining force), then I am all the more glad.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 03 Jul 2009 21:01

GoI is starting multiple Special Forces groups and expanding existing ones for internal security/policing work. I think it is a step in wrong direction. Law and order is not a federal issue but a state issue as per constitution so the whole system is setup that way. Stationing 3000 NSG in Kolkata hub to cover entire estern india against slippery terrorists is a waste. By the time these folks get to the crime scene it would have been all over.

The NSG will not go behind terrorists who hit and run, thats not their mission rather they are for operations like in Mumbai or Akshardam, were a perimeter is established by other forces but cannot be sanitised because the terrorists barricading themselves. They are not search and destroy, and this is a specialisation that costs money and is not prudent for every state to have its own training. The state commandos can be trained to make contact and establish perimeter so that the terriers are pinned. One is anvil and other is hammer.

I agree with sum too many forces will not only cause administrative headaches , but also will result in poor coordination in combined operation coz of obscurity in role and responsibility in a joint operation. But the worst is that it might dilute the speciality of the SF too many personnel + not much infra = less training/person/year.

satya · Post by **satya** » 04 Jul 2009 01:31

Sorry to defend netas but this time its our Babus who brought this idea of NSG hubs with a simple reason : its economical & easy for C&C str8 from MHA .

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Jul 2009 09:22

Sanjay wrote:Ray Sahib, the truth is that there is a feeling that some elements have unfairly ruled against domestic products vs foreign ones. The Arjun, the Metamorphosis 155/130 upgrade and the OFBs 120mm Long-Range Mortar are three examples.

Similarly, the INSAS was put through intense trials that the US M-16 family and possibly even the Tavor could not pass !

That being said, SF units in India have always been able to select more or less what they've wanted - foreign or domestic.

The issue has always been that of organization and that of training for an appropriate role so that they could fulfill their enormous potential. That and political support of course.

I am afraid, I am aware of the INSAS trials. I daresay they were put to any other tests than what was written in the GSQR. I can assure you that if the Trial Questionnaire adds anything beyond the GSQR, the DRDO will howl to high heavens. Such additions just cannot be done and they have good media managers.

To be frank, it is not the Army alone who decides which equipment is to be bought. There is the DGI, DRDO, the Ministry, the PNC, Cabinet Committee. Each one has a say and the most important are the PNC and Cabinet Committee. There are also political reasons that decides which equipment is to be bought.

shyamm · Post by **shyamm** » 05 Jul 2009 00:01

Special Forces during Aero India 2009

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 05 Jul 2009 01:46

Gracies Senor Shyam..awesome pics. The cool dude with LMG & radio looks promisingly punishing...One question though...why surface these pics now? or did I miss these pics in your earlier posts? I am curious what else your treasure-trove has?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Jul 2009 02:07

Ray Sahib, I accept what you say but will point out that some of the imports which allegedly satisfied the GSQR and passed trials have not fared so well - the T-90 and the Soltam M-46 upgrade being two. Sometimes there is a case for investing in a local product and improving it with time. That's how everyone else built their defence industries. China made garbage for years but improved step by step and Israel did the same.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Jul 2009 11:16

Sanjay wrote:Ray Sahib, I accept what you say but will point out that some of the imports which allegedly satisfied the GSQR and passed trials have not fared so well - the T-90 and the Soltam M-46 upgrade being two. Sometimes there is a case for investing in a local product and improving it with time. That's how everyone else built their defence industries. China made garbage for years but improved step by step and Israel did the same.

I cannot comment on the systems that you have mentioned.

It would be worth noting that the INSAS inspite of 'better' weapons is well received by the
Army.

Please note which all agencies and political bodies are involved and so while the Army might clear something, there are still very powerful bodies which can scuttle the issue! The Bofors is the ideal case in point - it has not only fared well to be accepted but also proved its worth in combat! Now, why should we not induct more of it?

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Jul 2009 12:10

What is the "Bow tie" like patch on the Garud's arm below the "Special Forces" badge and the "Garud eagle" patch?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Jul 2009 12:11

^^^ The "Bow" Like Patch is to represent a Propeller of a plane. I think its an Airman Designation. I could be wrong though.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 06 Jul 2009 15:00

SPG budgetary allocation up by 28 per cent

The budgetary proposals for the SPG, which has been bringing in modern equipment and plans to get a plane, for this fiscal has been pegged at Rs 226.17 crore as against Rs 176.59 crore during 2008-09.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jul 2009 15:37

rkhanna wrote:^^^ The "Bow" Like Patch is to represent a Propeller of a plane. I think its an Airman Designation. I could be wrong though.

That rank insignia is for a "Leading Aircraftsman" (roughly equivalent to L.Nk in IA).

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Jul 2009 15:48

That rank insignia is for a "Leading Aircraftsman" (roughly equivalent to L.Nk in IA).

Danke. I knew i was remmembering it wrong.

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Jul 2009 11:14

It seems most of regular IA units have adopted the new camo. Why aren't the special forces not doing the same.
Or is the new camo only for the army...
Also SF equipped with Tar-21's fielded the old camo during R-day parade.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Jul 2009 11:38

Sanjay,

There is no two opinion that we must indigenise and keep improving.

However, in the interim, we have to be ready in full strength so that in case a war is thrust on us, we are ready to not only defend but take the battle into the enemy lands.

The problem of the defence industry is that by the time it has improved the equipment, it is already obsolescent!

We are, however, proficient in cosmetic changes like the camouflage clothing, which means squat to operational efficiency in a major way.

It is like JJ Singh's order that on Friday, the whole IA will wear the combat dress so that we do not forget our combat capabilities! What a gas!