Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 28 Jun 2009 15:07

What I mean is the Goenka's, who own the "Indian Express", don't seem to be the owners of "The New Indian Express". Therefore "Indian Express" and "The New Indian Express" are different entities with no relation to each other.

Regards

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 01 Jul 2009 01:00

'Missile woman' to handle ambitious Agni-V project

Quoting some parts of the article...

Agni-V, with a strike range of 5,000-km, which is slated to be tested for the first time next year.

...

The work on the solid-fuelled Agni-V basically revolves around incorporating a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, along with some advanced technologies like ring laser gyroscope and accelerator for navigation and guidance.

The endeavour is to ensure that Agni-V, for which the government has sanctioned around Rs 2,500 crore, is also a canister-launch missile system to ensure it has the requisite operational flexibility to be fired from any part of the country. It will be slightly short of true ICBMs, which have ranges in excess of 5,500 km, but enough to take care of existing `threat perceptions'.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 01 Jul 2009 01:13

ajay_hk wrote:'Missile woman' to handle ambitious Agni-V project

Does that mean that we have good news on the Agni-IIAT front (she used to head that effort)?

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 01 Jul 2009 01:25

I think Agni 2 AT has already been tested, and now all new A2s being produced are ATs.
Can't expect DDM to ever report on the differences between a A2 and an A2AT - since these dorks are still stuck on the level of 'Nuclear capable 1 meter diameter trishul missile' or that this test or that test failed but evil socialist government covered it up.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 01 Jul 2009 03:33

and accelerator

finally, instead of a brake and clutch they chose the correct pedal. No wonder we're doing so well!

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 01 Jul 2009 10:46

It is interesting to note that all Govt reports mention LR-SAM & MR-SAM having a range of 60-70km and ceiling of 18km which would mean that it is single stage missile of 275kg and Barak with booster may just be a proposal. Or their might be a yindoo - baniya conspiracy to show a 150km range missile as 70km missile.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jul 2009 12:39

So the twin test of Agni-2 which happened was the new AT type and since it was successful she is now being appointed as Proj director of Agni 5 ?

I need the picture of Agni-2AT being launched

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 01 Jul 2009 12:48

I agree, no pic of agni-2 AT in the hands of armed forces or in testing phase has been released.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 13:00

This picture is circa 2006.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 01 Jul 2009 20:46

Anujan wrote:
ajay_hk wrote:'Missile woman' to handle ambitious Agni-V project

WTF ? How can the media publish names and pictures of scientists working on strategic programmes ? How can the media be so irresponsible ? The same toilet paper reported few days back that scientists working on defence projects are facing threats from piglets and one of its own commentary states that defence scientists should not get more exposure for their own safety and now this !

BTW, from the report it looks like mms and co have already given assurance to the americans that India will cap its missile range to 5000 km which if true will be very very dangerous fron Indian security POV !

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Jul 2009 21:01

Raj Malhotra wrote:It is interesting to note that all Govt reports mention LR-SAM & MR-SAM having a range of 60-70km and ceiling of 18km which would mean that it is single stage missile of 275kg and Barak with booster may just be a proposal. Or their might be a yindoo - baniya conspiracy to show a 150km range missile as 70km missile.

We havent come across any official plan to develop an LR-SAM. Only the MR-SAM with the 70 KM range and its naval variant are confirmed. LR-SAM speculation about specs, range etc are only that - speculation.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Jul 2009 21:08

Rony wrote: WTF ? How can the media publish names and pictures of scientists working on strategic programmes ? How can the media be so irresponsible ? The same toilet paper reported few days back that scientists working on defence projects are facing threats from piglets and one of its own commentary states that defence scientists should not get more exposure for their own safety and now this !

BTW, from the report it looks like mms and co have already given assurance to the americans that India will cap its missile range to 5000 km which if true will be very very dangerous fron Indian security POV !

Concur 100%. Why paint a target symbol on the poor lady

. We can give her the credit & publicize it after the job is done.

As regards 5000KM range - its not just the MMS govt, none of our govts incl. BJP had the b@lls to authorize the development of a full-fledged ICBM. It saddens us every time when we hear that the capability exists but the political will doesnt.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 01 Jul 2009 21:10

Good going Tessy Thomas !!!
India is proud of you and the likes of you who make India stronger every day.

IMHO Agni-II AT has progressed well but not yet tested. The last 2 tests were standard Agni-II test. No wet dreams of A2-AT being tested under cover of A2 vanilla.

OTOH the ostensible Agni-V development cycle delay and launch in 2010, is surprising because Agni-V has been ready for test flight for more than 1 year. But more due deligence verification before testing is a good thing. IMHO they moved the goalpost by adding more feature (payload confign) and testing the near final configuration in the first test launch. The 3rd stage will be composite case.

The facade of 5000 Km is a good one. Those in trade know well the A3 and A5 range.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 01 Jul 2009 21:16

Prem Kumar wrote:
Rony wrote: WTF ? How can the media publish names and pictures of scientists working on strategic programmes ? How can the media be so irresponsible ? The same toilet paper reported few days back that scientists working on defence projects are facing threats from piglets and one of its own commentary states that defence scientists should not get more exposure for their own safety and now this !

BTW, from the report it looks like mms and co have already given assurance to the americans that India will cap its missile range to 5000 km which if true will be very very dangerous fron Indian security POV !
Concur 100%. Why paint a target symbol on the poor lady . We can give her the credit & publicize it after the job is done. .

On this line I ask Indian Government to issue 4 sets of burka as standard work uniform for all govt servants? Including super government servants like MMS and MPs.

Arun uvacha:

Strong nations behave as themselves.
Dhimmi nations also behave as themselves.

You choose.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 21:51

For the media this is a novelty, I am sure that the government has certainly not discouraged this at all. Women scientists involved in something as cutting edge as developing fighter planes, and satellite launchers and satellites and ICBMs is great news.

The same hype surrounded Dr APJAK. He was provided due security. All this is part of the trade these people are involved in.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 01 Jul 2009 22:08

It would be better if we accelerate the ICBM development/testing phase.
Complete the development, Make some of them for any type of deterrence
,and sit down quietly .
Let the amrikis shout(if they do so officially) , because once we have the capability ,tested and shown in media, then others know it as well that we can do anything if provoked, the message will be delivered and task achieved.

India should not aim at deploying thousands of nukes via icbms,a possible reason we think politicians are over defensive as assuming it to be a logical conclusion to have thousands of nukes pointing everywhere..
,just test the icbms make few dozens and divert the money to develop better ones.

Prem Kumar wrote: Concur 100%. Why paint a target symbol on the poor lady . We can give her the credit & publicize it after the job is done.

As regards 5000KM range - its not just the MMS govt, none of our govts incl. BJP had the b@lls to authorize the development of a full-fledged ICBM. It saddens us every time when we hear that the capability exists but the political will doesnt.

It's not about political will altogether
Other reason why we aren't testing is because of the sluggish nature of the political-babu system and may not be that much of international pressure.
Because when we had(will soon have) nuke submarine, it should be noted that this is the same kind of weapon platform that is even more dangerous on scale if not lesser than an icbm, which we possessed in 1980s, .!
The main reason is because of sluggish nature that we dont have that, international pressure had limited role, it was not enough to stop NK on nuke test, how it could stop India ,when it was not able to stop when we tested 3500 km agni?
imagine a multitude of scientists directed to develop the icbm ,where is the ball factor ?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 01 Jul 2009 22:10

Arun_S wrote:
Arun uvacha:

Strong nations behave as themselves.
Dhimmi nations also behave as themselves.

You choose.

Satya vachan

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2009 22:20

indeed. amirkhan parts a CVBG openly and dares anyone to come out and play.

chipanda takes refuge under 'dongfeng-x modified to hit moving ships', swarms of killer sea gulls trained by shogun monks to attack american ships and a 1000 plane armada of microlight a/c guided by gamers in guangzhou to their target

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 22:26

India seems to be planning for all pieces to fall in place by the 2012-14 period.

The economy
The Missile programme
The Naval / Airforce / Army development.

There seems to be something that the long term planners have in mind.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 01 Jul 2009 22:52

So Arunji,

When you say last 2 tests of A II you are saying that there was a test in June as well....surprising that NO DDM caught it.....

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Jul 2009 23:02

Arun_S wrote: The facade of 5000 Km is a good one. Those in trade know well the A3 and A5 range.

Respectfully disagree Arun. This has been discussed in the past a few times - so I dont want to flog a dead horse too much.

I am not questioning the theory that A3 or A5 can deliver an appropriate payload at a 12000 KM range if need be. But this capability exists only on paper. As we all saw during the recent A2 test, there is many a slip between the cup and the lip. If we really want to claim that we have ICBM capability, I dont see how that's possible without actually testing A3 or A5 at that range.

Its interesting that you mention Dhimmi nations in your next post. If "having a facade of 5K range" for fear of ruffling Unkil's feathers is not Dhimmitude, then what is?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2009 23:14

I think we want to avoid overt bad relations with china for a few more years until the pieces
fall in place to deal with serious escalations by them. we are preparing for the day when chinese
take off the glove and up the game from just passively sending a few missiles to pakistan.

unkil would be least bothered whether we test to 2500km or 7500km, they know India is not a
threat.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Jul 2009 23:26

That's the "discretion is the better part of valor" approach, which can sometimes be disparagingly called dhimmitude

. I agree that the next 5 years are quite critical from an Indian POV. We hope & pray that a lot of pieces will fall in place by then.

I always thought the 5K limit was for Unkil's consumption. With A2 and A3, we have already warned China. A5 will just make it more comprehensive.

I do think that Unkil will be seriously concerned if we test a 10K ICBM. If we deploy those on an ATV, Unkil will start talking to us differently than what he is doing now. Thermo-nukes is the other missing ingredient.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 02 Jul 2009 00:52

We should consider capping the range only when we have the capability to hit either TSP or China from ANY launch point in India , mainland or Island.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Jul 2009 01:47

Gagan wrote:India seems to be planning for all pieces to fall in place by the 2012-14 period.

The economy
The Missile programme
The Naval / Airforce / Army development.

There seems to be something that the long term planners have in mind.

Shhhh ..... dont say that. Isn't 2012 a conspiracy theory?

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 02 Jul 2009 11:08

Arun_S wrote:Shhhh ..... dont say that. Isn't 2012 a conspiracy theory?

Oh this is something new, what am I missing over here?
I do hear some jyotishis making drastic predictions about a fellow nation though...

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 02 Jul 2009 11:26

babbupandey wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Shhhh ..... dont say that. Isn't 2012 a conspiracy theory?
Oh this is something new, what am I missing over here?
I do hear some jyotishis making drastic predictions about a fellow nation though...

Nothing Much,Doom-Sayers say that world will end on Dec 21 2012,referring mayan calendar,pole shift,solar flares,Nibiru planet etc etc... but thats a VERY HUGE OT here so lets stop here

.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Jul 2009 12:45

Nop. Its not about Mayan calender.

It is about method to discredit some posters on the threads in "Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum" by painting them as alarmists propagating vile "conspiracy theory".

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 02 Jul 2009 20:58

I don't see anything 'planned' to fit precisely in the time period hushed about. If anything old plans are coming to fruition, and if past indicators are to go by there will be time slippages.

All Gen.Paddy did was to write a piece of fiction, perhaps to kill time!

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 02 Jul 2009 21:49

Gen Paddy's book is: India Checkmates America-2017 not 2012.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 02 Jul 2009 23:12

[/quote]

WTF ? How can the media publish names and pictures of scientists working on strategic programmes ? How can the media be so irresponsible ? The same toilet paper reported few days back that scientists working on defence projects are facing threats from piglets and one of its own commentary states that defence scientists should not get more exposure for their own safety and now this !
[/quote]

1)Exactly the first thing which came to mind is the safety of our scientists ! If we claim, AGNI V is a secret project and we publish the names of the key scientist, what is the logic ? atleast I don't understand !! We are just exposing our targets to terrorists !

2) If we suspect AGNI 5 with a Max. range of 5000 KM , then how about our dreams about SURYA , over 12,000 KM range?

3) So many doubts about capping/limiting our capabilities being raised , in various times. ( from Nukclear caps to Missile range cap etc ) Only Time will tell the truth.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 02 Jul 2009 23:16

Prabu wrote: 2) If we suspect AGNI 5 with a range of 5000 KM , max, then how about our dreams about SURYA ? So many doubts about capping opur capabilities being raised including in this forum, in various times. ( from Nukclear caps to Missile range cap etc ) Only Time will tell the truth.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Agni.html

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 02 Jul 2009 23:40

Arun-ji, We need a new graph like this one incorporating the Agni-V payload vs ranges.

(Instead of being just a plain Payload vs Range, it would be good to have the ranges for a Single warhead vs a, for eg. MIRVx3 or a MIRVx5 warhead as per the various configurations, displayed for the dhimmi janta.)

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 03 Jul 2009 01:45

Is a 300 kt warhead enough to destroy Beijing,Shanghai or HongKong ?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Jul 2009 02:17

durgesh wrote:Is a 300 kt warhead enough to destroy Beijing,Shanghai or HongKong ?

The largest warhead carried on the British Trident D5 missiles is just 100kt. Each submarine now also carries a few missiles with tactical yield warheads (0.3 kt or 5 kt - the unboosted primary or boosted primary) or downloaded to a single (100 kt - full yield of primary and secondary) warhead but basically the entire British strategic nuclear deterrent relies on 100 kt weapons with each Trident missile carrying three warheads. The Vanguard submarine carries 16 Trident missiles and only one submarine is at sea at a time so at most there could be 48 warheads on deterrent patrol. The UK has 58 D5 missiles which is not enough to fully arm all four Vanguard boats. Yet the UK arsenal is considered quite credible and formidable.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 03 Jul 2009 03:46

p_saggu wrote:Arun-ji, We need a new graph like this one incorporating the Agni-V payload vs ranges.

(Instead of being just a plain Payload vs Range, it would be good to have the ranges for a Single warhead vs a, for eg. MIRVx3 or a MIRVx5 warhead as per the various configurations, displayed for the dhimmi janta.)

>>Single warhead vs a, for eg. MIRVx3 or a MIRVx5 warhead as per the various configurations, displayed for the dhimmi janta....
Your wish is my command. But before we talk of Agni-V lets make sure we understanding the loving peaceful glory of Agni-3, because Agni-V requires viewer discretion particularly if the skin colour is not dark.

The graph already exists in the last article I wrote for Indian Defense Review- January-09 issue. When the missile site is revamped it will be available as html file. Till then pls fee free to see it on page 7 of the pdf file below that is hosted on IRF website:

Figure 3: Without TN warhead Indian payload’s effectiveness rapidly drop off at longer range

IRF: Way To A Credible Nuclear Deterrent

IRF: Articles

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 03 Jul 2009 04:47

OK here are the diagram:

Clicky...
Figure-1: Figure 1: Field proven Indian nuclear warheads
Figure 2: High design confidence weapons, some require ICF or field test verification

Clicky...
Figure 3: Without TN warhead Indian payload’s effectiveness rapidly drop off at longer range

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 03 Jul 2009 06:30

How do missiles specifically ICBMs fly? What sort of course do they take? Amongst the two below which?

The shourya, I understand takes a cruise missile like course at a 50 Km altitude. But an ICBM that travels halfway across the earth - does it take the parabolic path or does it go into orbit, then deorbits at the required distance?

Even more specifically, will the third stage on the A5 give its payload the required speed to attain orbit?

negi · Post by **negi** » 03 Jul 2009 07:11

Sagguddin lets take thij to BENIS; I am serious.

PS: just place a flag at the intended target as TSP mijjiles home on flags onlee.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 03 Jul 2009 10:20

durgesh wrote:Is a 300 kt warhead enough to destroy Beijing,Shanghai or HongKong ?

India is a peaceful country onlee.. We dont speak/think of destroying anybody..
Our missiles can deliver flowers too..