Indian Autos Thread

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 31 Aug 2009 11:03

No Watemans 18Kt Gold nib with Indian ink

here is what vina garus uses
http://www.waterman.com/en/style/pens/edson

Parker, Hero, Monte Blanc are all chillar ( in Hyderabadi its small change)

The real thing is watermans

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 31 Aug 2009 11:15

We are getting carried away here. (pointing at negi dude....hehe)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Aug 2009 11:27

This stick vs. auto argument is like the usual India nukkad debate where old fogies yarn about "those good old days" and "these youngsters today, no purity tsk tsk tsk (accompanied by head shaking)"

*ducks for cover*

vina · Post by **vina** » 31 Aug 2009 11:29

Mitsubishi Eclipse

There.. There.. Careful. The very first car I drove in the US as a FOB was the 210 Hp Mitsu Eclipse (the 2nd Gen), top end 4 wheel drive , in the streets of Manhattan (to get to know how to drive in driving on the right country!)..

An absolute gem of a car and a hoot to drive. Fully loaded, 4 wheel drive, and manual of course. It handled beautifully, and if you spool up the engine and launch, the kick in the back feels like you were on a fighter jet on a carrier deck launched by a catapult!. Surely the no nonsense, honest to God sports car.

Now I know the later generations were the bloated "compromise" with V6 engines and all the rest of it. How do you compare that car with an ageing babu vahan.. Yeah the only Audi that is comprable is the Audi TT (note the TTs that were sold when I was in Massa were the 4 cyl turbo charged ones which put out 140hp or so, way less than what the Mitsu Eclipse put out).

If you are talking about the Toyota MR2 old, I agree the that it really was mer-deux or rather merde (google around in Phrench for what it means) .

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Aug 2009 11:30

In other news....saw a Bugatti Veyron last Friday. Darn light turned green before I could take a pic...wonder which SV badshah it belonged to?

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 31 Aug 2009 11:33

Naw its not really a serious issue. Its an endless discussion ....... auto vs manual .......

ppl who risked a bit and tried out an automatic will have a different experience. Those who stayed back with manual and went for high performance engines will have a thoroughly different experience.

Ultimately it depends on what u r looking 4. That is a subjective issue. And its only fair that each is well defended.

The only thing I dont believe in is when someone says I don't care .... either automatic or manual or 3rd-option tiptronic is fine with me.

This is a big no-no.

To give u a hint on how subjective this issue is:
One of the things I like about the Honda City CVT is its ultra-small turn radius. Its very cool. I know for a fact that this is a very cool feature in the Honda City CVT. I am only touching the tip of the iceberg here.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 31 Aug 2009 21:06

Changing gear in start stop condition is tiring beyond a point. In India, any driving is generally for a longer duration than massaland for similar distance.
Also, in India, most of the cars do not have a smooth BMW type stick, rather a rusted /@%^&#@/ danda and you have to fight it with your left hand when most likely you are not a lefty.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Aug 2009 21:20

Aw c'mon y'll... stop

will ya.... be real men and do stick shift like other real men only.....
/Hmmmph

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 31 Aug 2009 21:28

vina wrote:Now I know the later generations were the bloated "compromise" with V6 engines and all the rest of it. How do you compare that car with an ageing babu vahan.. Yeah the only Audi that is comprable is the Audi TT (note the TTs that were sold when I was in Massa were the 4 cyl turbo charged ones which put out 140hp or so, way less than what the Mitsu Eclipse put out).

The earliest Audi TT cars came in two models, the 140 HP model and for $10,000 more, you could get the 180 HP model. One of my friends found out (from an Audi mechanic!) that you could buy the 140 HP model and take it to a particular tuner's shop down in the Irvine area and for around $500, you could boost it to about 175 HP or so

.

So I was relaying this story to another friend of mine (who was an ABCD) and laughingly said, with this option around, people would have to be idiots to buy the 180 HP model. Said ABCD's face slightly changed and he said that he was one of those idiots. Luckily for him, he had a lot of trouble with his car and managed to get his money back under the CA lemon law.

I had a former boss who always swore by his Audi A4 to my stick shift BMW 3.

Oh by the way, when I got my BMW, my brother wanted me to get one with a tiptronic paddle shift option, but I told him I was never going to drive a car that drove like a goddamn nintendo video game.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 31 Aug 2009 21:30

Real men do not do stick shift .. they jump on donkies and race against predators through hellphyre shower ...
all others are pretenders

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Sep 2009 00:02

This is the first time I've heard that Audi's are 'German public servant' cars. They make some excellent cars and engines, particularly diesels in Oirope. I like the fact that they have good performance while having a more plush interior than the comparable BMW. They are also the 24hrs of Le Mans winners in 8 of the last 10 years, first with the R8, and then the R10. However, the Audi TT was not really their best car - it was an overweight, underpowered mechanical liability.

When it comes to picking between the three German marques, qualitative comparisions between them are probably the wrong way to look at it. Instead, pick what suits your personality and driving needs. All three have models with powerful motors, but differ in their philosophy towards driver feedback and refinement. The Merc for example, may be overly plush, but they have some torque monsters in their upper end AMG range. If you're interested in contributing to the upkeep of roads and law enforcement, consider getting a BMW M3 in electric blue or yellow - the highway police will see $$ in their eyes the moment they set eyes on you

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 01 Sep 2009 00:49

Talking about stick shifting "manliness".

The drivers of those open cockpit 900 HP F1 cars drive paddle-shifting sequential automatics with electro-hydraulic auto clutch's. They must have missed the lessons about how they are really "girly men" driving those "unmanly" automatics.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 Sep 2009 02:28

Shalav wrote: The drivers of those open cockpit 900 HP F1 cars drive paddle-shifting sequential automatics with electro-hydraulic auto clutch's. They must have missed the lessons about how they are really "girly men" driving those "unmanly" automatics.

saar, I did try to politely point out the charms of a semi-auto and paddle-shifters. But it is apparently one of those tablet inscribed edicts

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 01 Sep 2009 03:33

Shalav wrote:Talking about stick shifting "manliness".

The drivers of those open cockpit 900 HP F1 cars drive paddle-shifting sequential automatics with electro-hydraulic auto clutch's. They must have missed the lessons about how they are really "girly men" driving those "unmanly" automatics.

But saar, we drive 270HP honda's onlee. We need the shtick to feel manly

900 HP monsters don't count in this

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 01 Sep 2009 05:29

I wanted to buy Audi last october, but the dealer close to my home was kind of very arrogant and thought this SDRE doesnt have the dough/dollar in his chaddi.

So I went to Acura dealer, who had bunch of SDRE in his shop, and who spotted my pocket and gave me a very good deal on Acura TL out of the door fully loaded, with GPS,moon roof, premium audio package out of the door $29,800

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 01 Sep 2009 09:48

John Snow wrote:So I went to Acura dealer, who had bunch of SDRE in his shop, and who spotted my pocket and gave me a very good deal on Acura TL out of the door fully loaded, with GPS,moon roof, premium audio package out of the door $29,800

mags also say acuras are great value-4-money compared to lexus. i bet u saved urself 5 to 10 grand for the same set of features from lexus.

smart choice.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Sep 2009 10:25

I spotted a VW jetta brand new near my house last week but engine noise was very rough. do the desi 'tata std' diesel make these euro TDI types run rough compared to the evian diesel sold in eu ? would hate for anyone to buy a merc kompressor only to have it make embarassing rumbles and tractor sounds like
a guy with a flatulence issue.

atleast petrol cars smoke no more here - upto bharat-IV norms in metros.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Sep 2009 10:31

Picklu wrote:Real men do not do stick shift .. they jump on donkies and race against predators through hellphyre shower ...
all others are pretenders

This thread turning out better than the joke thread.

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Sep 2009 10:39

John Snow wrote:No Watemans 18Kt Gold nib with Indian ink

here is what vina garus uses
http://www.waterman.com/en/style/pens/edson

Parker, Hero, Monte Blanc are all chillar ( in Hyderabadi its small change)

The real thing is watermans

JS garu...Mont Blanc Gmbh aint no chiller it makes one of the most expensive fountain pens out there definetly more chi chi than the waterman.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 01 Sep 2009 10:41

Does anyone drive a car with twin exhausts

Is it just cosmetic or does it really improve torque and/or hp

VikB wrote:This thread turning out better than the joke thread.

VikB this thread is different. Its like window shopping ..... u get to buy all the cars and features u want in ur mind without shedding any moolah. Very nice.

Whereas in the Humour thread u dont get the feeling ur buying anything, no-loss no-gain. So u see this thread is far more useful.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 11:12

Cars traditionally had proprietary OSs and then later on ofcourse, the ubiquitous VXWorks. A lot of the high-end ones are now on QNX. The in-vehicle entertainment segment is expanding (should show some radical changes down the line) - traditional big shots like Carmeq, Continental, Panasonic, Magneti Marelli ityadi are now letting in cos from other non-related industries

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 01 Sep 2009 11:32

^^^^
BMW 7 series runs Windows CE

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 11:37

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
BMW 7 series runs Windows CE

Yeah I missed that. However they are also planning on moving to QNX as per chaiwallahs. I have seen a few protos which seem to support that. Dont know if CE runs the critical functions on current Beemers or not - maybe not.

Actually now that I think about it, MS Auto is limited to iDrive onlee afaik.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 01 Sep 2009 12:19

Ford Sync runs Microsoft Windows CE, now christened as Microsoft Auto.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 12:26

^^^ Yeah it all started with the Magneti Marelli collaboration with MSFT, the Blue&Me stuff developed for Fiat then MSFT later took it forward into Ford Sync. I know the guy from the Magneti Marelli side. WinCE is limited to head units onlee afaik...I have not seen it in use for any ECU related functionality (don't want to either given its inherent Thandaar like instability!

)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 12:28

pandyan wrote:Is CE designed for critical functions (managing engine/abs/transmission etc)? I thought they were for media/entertainment/UI aspects...now that I think about it...some of the uber expensive vehicles do allow shifting to sport mode/4X4 etc by touch of screen right...so, they need to talk back to more critical systems....question: do cars have single OS that manages both engine and UI aspects or do they have separate OSes for specific purpose?

Separate (OS in question might be the same unless it is WinCE which is not used for ECU related stuff) - there is very strong separation between the two esp. since the head unit part is moving to more interesting times. Car manufacturers are some of the most paranoid folks on planet when it comes to technology - I guess they have to be!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Sep 2009 14:47

boeing could cut costs and deploy winCE as the OS below the FCS and engine managers on Dreamliner.

winCE is the future.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 21:23

^^^ Then we need N^3 to certify the systems before I set foot on the darn bird

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Sep 2009 22:19

daymn! isnt Ballmers word enough ? no trust around here...

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 02 Sep 2009 00:18

once upon a time Motorola 6800 series were used in ford engine control modules...
I dont know what they do these days

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 02 Sep 2009 10:18

Drevin wrote:....
VikB this thread is different. Its like window shopping ..... u get to buy all the cars and features u want in ur mind without shedding any moolah. Very nice.

Whereas in the Humour thread u dont get the feeling ur buying anything, no-loss no-gain. So u see this thread is far more useful.

Me still learning the ropes saar. That is why a 'trainee'

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Sep 2009 10:58

Singha wrote:daymn! isnt Ballmers word enough ? no trust around here...

Ask the Beemer and Daimler engineers how much they trust Ballmer's and Jobs's words

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Sep 2009 12:10

^^^ Notice that most of such info that you see on your head unit is thru reads (not writes) - Using standardized and custom OBDII codes you can get almost everything from any of the ECUs in your car. Essentially it is mostly sensing (reads) with very limited actuation (writes). The interface for writes is very very narrow and is tested like hell to make sure that nothing can go wrong. Even then there are no direct writes to anything remotely close to an actual ECU - it passes through layers of verification logic. Technically anything is possible - you can go and replace tamper with the ECU which controls yours brakes and ABS for that matter. What the car manufacturers ensure is that nothing goes wrong in such a way that it leaves them liable - liability is enough for them to kill any fancy engineering fanboism.

On a broader note, vehicles today actually have one of the most practical implementations of principles of safety in pervasive/ubiquitous computing systems - in fact they have had it way before Berkeley and MIT research fanboys ever dreamt of such a need (I guess they were too busy posturing with their endless nutty prototypes of motes-based systems).

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Sep 2009 18:29

Raja Bose wrote:^^^ Notice that most of such info that you see on your head unit is thru reads (not writes) - Using standardized and custom OBDII codes you can get almost everything from any of the ECUs in your car. Essentially it is mostly sensing (reads) with very limited actuation (writes). The interface for writes is very very narrow and is tested like hell to make sure that nothing can go wrong. Even then there are no direct writes to anything remotely close to an actual ECU - it passes through layers of verification logic. Technically anything is possible - you can go and replace tamper with the ECU which controls yours brakes and ABS for that matter. What the car manufacturers ensure is that nothing goes wrong in such a way that it leaves them liable - liability is enough for them to kill any fancy engineering fanboism.

On a broader note, vehicles today actually have one of the most practical implementations of principles of safety in pervasive/ubiquitous computing systems - in fact they have had it way before Berkeley and MIT research fanboys ever dreamt of such a need (I guess they were too busy posturing with their endless nutty prototypes of motes-based systems).

Aha! An embedded systems , Auto Electronics /controls geek. No wonder you took it to the chin when I disssed the slush box as sewage.

.Point is, despite all the electronics and everything, a real man driving a shift will extract better performance and fuel effiency than all the fancy shamzy electronics. Grade logic indeed.. Nothing better than plain eye balls MK1 and the motino sensers int he inner ear sensing that you are going uphill, so you shift. or that the road ahead is uneen/broken and you need to slow down/shift etc..

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Sep 2009 21:00

vina wrote: Aha! An embedded systems , Auto Electronics /controls geek.

What to do....I get paid for it even though moi is boor math talib onlee

- outside work I prefer rather "non-technical" pursuits

vina wrote: Point is, despite all the electronics and everything, a real man driving a shift will extract better performance and fuel effiency than all the fancy shamzy electronics. Grade logic indeed.. Nothing better than plain eye balls MK1 and the motino sensers int he inner ear sensing that you are going uphill, so you shift. or that the road ahead is uneen/broken and you need to slow down/shift etc..

There is a big gap between perception of real men and reality - most real men (unless they are F1 drivers - who anyways use the girly paddles) will be hard put to beat a well-tuned auto tranny today. If you have a 3 speed auto option onlee, go for stick otherwise stick is for weekend racing and weekday pain-da-musharraf onlee

. In the end it is all about crusty see-near maulanas with hennaed beards claiming "this is how it was done in our good ol' days" vs. the clean-shaven young mujahid's "new fangled ways" onlee. Like I said it depends on one's definition of manliness - whether it is defined as massaging the stick shift's b@ll or having one hand free to massage one's own b@lls

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 03 Sep 2009 09:48

Raja Bose wrote:^^^ Notice that most of such info that you see on your head unit is thru reads (not writes) - Using standardized and custom OBDII codes you can get almost everything from any of the ECUs in your car. Essentially it is mostly sensing (reads) with very limited actuation (writes). The interface for writes is very very narrow and is tested like hell to make sure that nothing can go wrong. Even then there are no direct writes to anything remotely close to an actual ECU - it passes through layers of verification logic. Technically anything is possible - you can go and replace tamper with the ECU which controls yours brakes and ABS for that matter. What the car manufacturers ensure is that nothing goes wrong in such a way that it leaves them liable - liability is enough for them to kill any fancy engineering fanboism.

On a broader note, vehicles today actually have one of the most practical implementations of principles of safety in pervasive/ubiquitous computing systems - in fact they have had it way before Berkeley and MIT research fanboys ever dreamt of such a need (I guess they were too busy posturing with their endless nutty prototypes of motes-based systems).

Basss, this went like a Rambha doing a flypast over my head

. No wonder I flunked my Electronics course

vina · Post by **vina** » 03 Sep 2009 10:17

Raja Bose wrote:There is a big gap between perception of real men and reality - most real men (unless they are F1 drivers - who anyways use the girly paddles)

That F1, paddle shifter , piece of fiction writing has to be called. Now, just because there are F1 STYLE paddle shifters on many cars today , that does NOT mean that the slush box in your typical car is similar to a F1 gear box. What the F1 cars have is actually a "robotized" version of the traditional clutch and gearbox. It is not the same as the slush box you have in conventional autos.

And note the F1 shifters work faster than a human can press a clutch with the leg and move the stick to shift, because of that. However, that does not directly translate into saying that slush box with F1 style steering mounted shifter (instead of moving the shift lever +/- in certain cars) has similar performance. That is a huge leap of faith.

Raja Bose wrote: If you have a 3 speed auto option onlee, go for stick otherwise stick is for weekend racing and weekday pain-da-musharraf onlee . In the end it is all about crusty see-near maulanas with hennaed beards claiming "this is how it was done in our good ol' days" vs. the clean-shaven young mujahid's "new fangled ways" onlee. Like I said it depends on one's definition of manliness - whether it is defined as massaging the stick shift's b@ll or having one hand free to massage one's own b@lls

It is not a case of b@ll maalish onree. For eg, no way in hell will any F1 driver allow some programmed ding dong AI to do the shifting. I am willing to bet that there are no major programs that decide shifting logic . Only F1 driver MK1 pressing button instead of pressing a clutch and shifting. Contrast that with the "manumatics" today. The shifting is entirely optional.. The shifters are primarily meant to be used sparingly, if at all. I really dont see much point in these shifters .

Autos with all their automated shift logic will work fine in nice smooth tarmac with well known conditions. Throw a rutted road on it, it starts getting wobbly, put it in a winding hill road with frequent and random ups and down (with a normal engine and not a humongous V8 backing up the slush box, it goes haywire)..Think of it, box decides to shift up in a slow curving corner either uphill/down hill (box doesn't know there is a corner, but driver does, you see), there are all sorts of hair raising possibilities.

The auto shifting logic is like the Wall St models.. They are linearized/ work in a set of controlled conditions, and scenarios that aren't modeled in will make the thing go belly up.. In such situations , it is back to Human Driver Mk1.. Put the slush (sewage box) in fixed gear ratio (say 2 or so) preventing it from shifting and then do motion , altitude and attitude sensor in ear and optics in the eye and other sensory feedback like engine sound and speed relative to conditions of road, carriage way etc to rescue the ship SS. Auto Slush Box from sinking to the bottom like PNS Ghazi!

vina · Post by **vina** » 03 Sep 2009 13:18

Vina - regarding "automatics" behavior on a hilly road, I found my accords 5 spd automatic to be supremely responsive when driving on u-turns/hair pin bends. It rapidly shifts to 3rd and holds there. Old chevy/ford cars had the problem of shunting back and forth between 3rd and 4th...without accurately sensing that it is still climbing up hill.

Ah..But what does it do when going downhill ?. Does it shift or does it hold 2nd/ 3rd ? Don't you have to slot it into 2nd and lock it there ? And what happens when you have a downhill section if you are not riding the brakes (hint.. does your Accord have a button called Hill Descent Control?) , followed by a short level section and then a steep climb?. So if Hyooman has to press Hill Descent Control button, than it really aint the all knowing super intelligent auto with multi sensor fusion like the F-22, innit?

How will the Accord auto handle something like the Ghat road section on the way from Mudumalai to Ooty , unless you lock the gear , I doubt it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2009 14:19

are real men not allowed to lock gear ?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 03 Sep 2009 14:29

More to the point, out of your total driving, how much of it is in ghats?

For city driving, where most people would spend their time, automatics are perfectly usable. Have been so for the last 20 years.