India-China News and Discussion

[ManuJ]

Apologies if it's a repost.
http://www.apcss.org/core/BIOS/malik/In ... ations.pdf

Good summary of India-China relations by J. Mohan Malik. Forcefully argues that confrontation will trump cooperation for the next few decades atleast.

[Karna_A]

Who's bragging, about what? And power is same as military parity?
Meanwhile
Plus I find it interesting while preaching "values" on the other thread on this thread you hold that we learn from China, who pretty much hold a single value -- "Hu with the biggest stick bully"
The use of raw power and wielding it thereof is the only value that China has displayed.
Anyway what happened to your list of values you wanted to learn from China? I am still waiting for it.

There is no doubt that Chinese Military power and overall strategy is way ahead of India.
If India had captured Tibet and nuclear armed Taiwan while selling arms to and getting bases in Mongolia, then it could have been said that India is in stronger position.
Since 1962 India has come a long way, but China has come even further and Admiral Mehta is right in his judgements. In an all out conventional war, Chinese armies will be in Kanpur and Banares in 3-4 weeks mostly through Nepal as that border is unguarded.
The reason of course is lack of political will and stiffling bureaucracy apart from apathy.
If you think India is stronger, then there is nothing for you to do.
I would much rather start a fund to sponsor ex-soldiers to settle in AP border areas so when the time comes, there is a second line of defence.

[Gog]

Hi Liu,
I have lot of chinese friends whom I can consider as close friends.

This is what people feel about lack of freedom.
http://www.travelblog.org/Asia/China/blog-15000.html

I know most systems are not perfect. Definitely Indian system is imperfect. But I understand Freedom is very precious, which can come only with a democracy.

Here is a poem to inspire you to get your own freedom.

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;
Where knowledge is free;
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow
domestic walls;
Where words come out from the depth of truth;
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection;
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the
dreary desert sand of dead habit;
Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought
and action--
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

[hulaku]

New protests in western China

There have been fresh protests in western China's Xinjiang region, where almost 200 people were killed in ethnic violence in July.

A witness told the BBC that as many as 2,000 ethnic Han Chinese have been demonstrating in the capital Urumqi.

The protesters are said to be angry at the deteriorating security situation in the wake of the July riots.

A trigger for the protests appears to have been a spate of unexplained stabbings using hypodermic needles.

State-run news agency Xinhua said that 15 people had been arrested over the stabbings, and that four of them had been prosecuted and would receive their judgements soon.

Safety fears

A businessman in Urumqi told the BBC that members of the Han community were demonstrating to complain about the worsening security situation.

"Han Chinese people have been protesting in the streets since yesterday," he said.

"Nearly everyone in Urumqi is on strike or protesting. Right now in front of me there are at least 2,000 people," he said from the centre of Urumqi.

Another resident said Han Chinese were concerned for their safety in the wake of the syringe attacks.

"The local government is not doing enough to protect Han people there... I am really [worried about] my family and relatives there. I urge [the] Chinese government should do more to prevent this," the resident told the BBC.

Xinhua news agency said the stabbing victims came from nine ethnic groups, including Uighurs and Han.

Protesters have accused the provincial government of being "useless", and some even asked for the dismissal of regional Communist Party boss Wang Lequan, who is thought to be an ally of President Hu Jintao.

Large numbers of police were turned out to block the protesters from reaching People's Square in the city centre.

The atmosphere in Urumqi has been tense for several days, residents said. One report said residents had been ordered to stay indoors.

Ethnic tension

The tension between Xinjiang's Uighur and Han communities has been simmering for many years but July's violence was the worst ethnic unrest in China for decades.

An initially peaceful protest by Uighur youths, apparently prompted by an earlier riot in a factory in southern China, turned violent with shops and vehicles burnt and passers-by attacked.

At least 197 people died and about 1,600 were injured, according to official figures.

The government says most of the dead were Han, but the exile activist group the World Uighur Congress claims many Uighurs were also killed.

Members of the city's Han community last held mass protests shortly after July's violence by ethnic Uighurs.

About 80 people have been charged over the violence but no date has been set for their trial.

Some Uighurs complain that Han migration into the province has diluted their culture and marginalised them economically.

Han currently account for roughly 40% of Xinjiang's population, while about 45% are Uighurs.

President Hu Jintao visited the region in late August and called for ethnic unity to be strengthened.

The latest protests come at a sensitive time for China's leadership, ahead of the 60th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China on 1 October.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8235305.stm

[Rishi]

Sukhdeo

1. Who is this "person" you are referring to? I am unaware of the context or history of your posts here.

2. Please explain the "Johnny Whiskey" and sidekick comments. You may email [email protected] if you want

I am sure you have made many insightful posts with a lot of research effort. Kudos. However, taken out of context, the above allusions (?) seem to be flamebait.

Masuru,

Please elaborate your comment:

Last time I checked Ghazni, Babur, and Aurangzeb's sons and daughters have seceded with 30% of the country and the rest are still making merry in the remaining 70% uncontested.

[sukhdeo]

Sukhdeo

1. Who is this "person" you are referring to? I am unaware of the context or history of your posts here.

2. Please explain the "Johnny Whiskey" and sidekick comments. You may email [email protected] if you want

I am sure you have made many insightful posts with a lot of research effort. Kudos. However, taken out of context, the above allusions (?) seem to be flamebait.

Thanks for the honest and thoughtful response. Please do, go over my posts on this and the "Strategic.." threads, if you find the time and I will be happy to take suggestions from you on how to improve the tone and quality of my posts so they are more useful for a discourse, if any improvement is required.

It is not big deal about the "sidekick", but this Sanku person, has been stalking me from thread to thread, and putting up offensive responses to my posts and to other thoughtful posts from some very bright people here. If I thought that it is only him, I would just ignore him. But I suspect he does this as a hatchetman for one or two forum adminstrators who dont like my philosophy of self help. I dont want to suppress this guy either, even his offensive comments, if it is genuinely him talking and not being someone's proxy. Even otherwise, I dont want to suppress him, but I did highlight several of his offending posts and requested the forum admins to restrain him. Instead of restraining him, I was issued warnings, veiled threats of being banned, and other tactics were being used to suppress my writings. It was in this context that I reacted to your post. I am sorry, I lumped you with others.

When no attempt was made to restrain Sanku, a couple of us in an attempt to make light of the situation, said that Sanku is the "proverbial sidekick" from 60s bollywood along the lines of Keshto, Rajinder Nath and Johnny Whiskey (or Walker ??), who always does the tacky dance on behest of the hero.

Frankly, I am only one voice, but I have noticed several others here have the same sentiments, that we would like to see this forum move away from the blames, rants and whines, the kind that is represented by threads such as "Terrorist Republic of Pakistan" into more of a discussion of what WE can do collectively to move our society, people and country forward. While a lot of our complaints against others are valid, it serves no purpose keeping on harping on them, as it creates a sense that we have done our duty by whining and that we need not do anything else, while in actuality we have achieved nothing by "whining". Please do go over my posts, you will get the sense.

[Rahul M]

There is no doubt that Chinese Military power and overall strategy is way ahead of India.
If India had captured Tibet and nuclear armed Taiwan while selling arms to and getting bases in Mongolia, then it could have been said that India is in stronger position.
Since 1962 India has come a long way, but China has come even further and Admiral Mehta is right in his judgements. In an all out conventional war, Chinese armies will be in Kanpur and Banares in 3-4 weeks mostly through Nepal as that border is unguarded.

and wear one of these too, for the sky may fall on your head !

it's one thing to be objective about a threat, quite another to throw in ridiculous assumptions for fear-mongering.

both over and under-estimation of a threat impairs your ability to judge correctly.
__________________________

more importantly, what is this thread supposed to discuss ? for I see no central theme with people posting whatever they like with an occasional sprinkling of words like India, china etc.
So, what is it ? if it's a general discussion thread I'll lock this one and request people to continue in nukkad.
regards.

[sukhdeo]

Exactly Rahul M.

I do believe that in order to arrive at the correct threat perception, you oughta give people leeway in bringing up history, peripheral issues touching on the subject, cultural issues etc, as they are all related. If you make the discussion too myopic, you then run the danger of going to the other extreme where the outcome becomes incorrect via too narrow a focus. At the same time, clearly, you are right that there have to be outer limits to how far you can venture, lest the discussion becomes meaningless.

I would humbly advise against locking this thread out of concern for the discussion getting a little spirited or heated up, though. Or perhaps, out of concern that more and more people are coming around to a conclusion you may not reach yourself. That would be censorship and you are one moderator who with my limited experience on this thread, I think we can trust in terms of judgement and fairness, to not censor.

What is this thread supposed to discuss. As a moderator of this thread, perhaps you could lay out 1) the scope of discussion, 2) the outer limits of what can be discussed here and 3) the purpose of this thread. It would help people stay within the parameters intended by the starter of the thread or the moderator. And then request each poster to comply with adn stay within the parameters (each poster, not just some of them)

Perhaps, this could be made a practice for the start of every thread. The first post of every new thread could lay out the limits, scope etc of the discussion and the objective. When the objective etc of a thread change, as they conceivably can do, perhaps, a new statement from the moderator can be put as guidelines for that thread.

[shravan]

Over 470 people stabbed with syringes in China's Xinjiang
03 September 2009

BEIJING - Over 470 people have been stabbed with syringes in China's restive Xinjiang region, state-run television said Thursday, reportedly leading to fresh protests in Urumqi city.

============

New protests in western China
3 September 2009

There have been fresh protests in the Chinese province of Xinjiang, where almost 200 people were killed in ethnic violence in July.

A witness told the BBC that as many as 2,000 ethnic Han Chinese had been demonstrating in the capital Urumqi.
======

Protesters demand China's Xinjiang leader resign
3 September 2009

URUMQI, China (Reuters) - Protesters massed in the capital of China's far western region of Xinjiang on Thursday demanding the ousting of its top official, amid a scare over syringe stabbings that has reignited ethnic tensions.

The demonstration was a rare public challenge by Han Chinese to the ruling Communist Party in Xinjiang, a tense region where deadly ethnic strife with Muslim Uighurs broke out in early July.

[Gog]

Hi Liu,
It is not at all surpising to hear about this syringe stabbings. CPC's gross human rights violation and Brutal repression has brought forth irrational reaction from the chinese. I wish CPC is forced to relinquish power by the oppressed chinese and that China embraces democracy.

The civilised world can no longer see the chinese suffering.

[Karna_A]

There is no doubt that Chinese Military power and overall strategy is way ahead of India.
If India had captured Tibet and nuclear armed Taiwan while selling arms to and getting bases in Mongolia, then it could have been said that India is in stronger position.
Since 1962 India has come a long way, but China has come even further and Admiral Mehta is right in his judgements. In an all out conventional war, Chinese armies will be in Kanpur and Banares in 3-4 weeks mostly through Nepal as that border is unguarded.

and wear one of these too, for the sky may fall on your head !

it's one thing to be objective about a threat, quite another to throw in ridiculous assumptions for fear-mongering.

both over and under-estimation of a threat impairs your ability to judge correctly.
__________________________

more importantly, what is this thread supposed to discuss ? for I see no central theme with people posting whatever they like with an occasional sprinkling of words like India, china etc.
So, what is it ? if it's a general discussion thread I'll lock this one and request people to continue in nukkad.
regards.

It's all right for for you to be cavalier and humorous about these things, since my aim here is not to convince you. There are plenty of like minded people who understand the threat and do not confuse patriotism with realism.
If a year back I would have said that 10 Marine commondo styled terrorists can create havoc in Mumbai for 3 days and virtually bring the whole city to standstill, you would have laughed away that too as over-estimation and something hypothetical. In fact I had raised the issue of lack of BPJ at the highest levels after the Delhi Jamia encounter much before Mumbai. If Karkare's BPJ had worked, it would have saved quite a few lives. Anyway, that is too late now.
Just for your own info make this scenario of what happens if Chinese Army comes through Nepal and Bhutan, borders which are not secured by military bunkers and fortifications but are rather policed by lathi/303 weilding policemen not unlike those at CST station.
or is the thought like just as Germans cannot cross Ardennes, so Chinese cannot cross another "neutral" country.

[Karna_A]

Democracy and human rights should be a vehicle for efficient governance not an excuse for inefficiency and corruption which is clearly the widespread case in India communist or otherwise.

Masaru,
A well thought out and succinct comment that goes to the very heart of malaise in Indian society today.
There are two important things that we Indians must guard against and has historically worked againsit us.
(a) Chalta He attitude where status quo is King
(b) Foolish Bravery: The famous adage that "Indians ko Marna aata he, ladna nahin" is still partly true.
You never win a war by bravely dying for your own country. You win a war by making the other ******** die for his country.

[shynee]

China may again oppose ADB plan for Arunachal

[pankajs]

Police impose calm on China city

Armed police are on the streets of Urumqi, in China's far western province of Xinjiang, in an attempt to prevent a third day of protests in the city.

[Liu]

Hi Liu,
It is not at all surpising to hear about this syringe stabbings. CPC's gross human rights violation and Brutal repression has brought forth irrational reaction from the chinese. I wish CPC is forced to relinquish power by the oppressed chinese and that China embraces democracy.

The civilised world can no longer see the chinese suffering.

can you tell how can you connect Uyghur thugs' syringe-stabbling attack to innocent Hans with CPC's gross human rights violation and Brutal repression ?

case is that CPC try to protect Uyghur and suppress angry Hans. how can CPC's protection of Uyghur =CPC's gross human rights violation and Brutal repression

According to you logicl,if CPC support Hans to suppress ugyhurs, then it is "CPC's unshamely suppress miniroty ethnic".
accordiing to you logical ,whatave CCP do with the situation, CCP is aways wrong.

can you tell you logic?


Frankly speaking, most Hans ,including me, are very angry that CPC can not provide innocent people with enough security.

more Han gathered and protested that Chinese government could not stop attacks with hypodermic needles this afternoon.
local police started to use tear gas to dive protesters

well, When Uyghurs thugs were massacring Hans, local police stood by;
when Hans protested for the lack of securty,local police used tear gas right now....

Hans are not the 3rd class citizens.

[JwalaMukhi]

Hans are not the 3rd class citizens.

This doesn't seem as to what CPC thinks. Because CPC thinks some Hans are not 3rd class citizens, but most Hans are 3rd class citizens. If not, why was CPC following two currencies within china. Where the valuation and possession of the currency was restricted as to whether one was a poor Han or one was card carrying member of the party or one was a foreigner.
Similarly, why some of the best first class seats in chinese railways were restricted only to "card carrying members" of the CPC or foreigners, while most of Hans were forced to use 3rd class hard bench seats, with no recourse to first class seats even if they had money.

[Liu]

Hans are not the 3rd class citizens.

This doesn't seem as to what CPC thinks. Because CPC thinks some Hans are not 3rd class citizens, but most Hans are 3rd class citizens. If not, why was CPC following two currencies within china. Where the valuation and possession of the currency was restricted as to whether one was a poor Han or one was card carrying member of the party or one was a foreigner.
Similarly, why some of the best first class seats in chinese railways were restricted only to "card carrying members" of the CPC or foreigners, while most of Hans were forced to use 3rd class hard bench seats, with no recourse to first class seats even if they had money.

well, I think you should misunderstand the case.

the case is that in china, the best first class seats in chinese railways were restricted only to those who can afford the ticket of the best first class seats .

so is India and other counties, I think.

if you can not afford tickets of first class carriges but seat yourself on the first class seats in India, I am sure your ass will be kicked out by the train attendants soon,.

[Jay]

the case is that in china, the best first class seats in chinese railways were restricted only to those who can afford the ticket of the best first class seats .

so is India and other counties, I think.

That sounds ridiculous. How do you restrict a seat to only who can buy, it sounds contradictory and NO its not the case in India and other countries where anybody can buy a ticket to travel first class.

[Liu]

the case is that in china, the best first class seats in chinese railways were restricted only to those who can afford the ticket of the best first class seats .

so is India and other counties, I think.

That sounds ridiculous. How do you restrict a seat to only who can buy, it sounds contradictory and NO its not the case in India and other countries where anybody can buy a ticket to travel first class.

if you can not afford the ticket, with what can you buy the ticket?

[Pranav]

While Chinese minorities may have legitimate grievances, it could be that these stabbings are being instigated by foreign agencies.

Hi Liu,
It is not at all surpising to hear about this syringe stabbings. CPC's gross human rights violation and Brutal repression has brought forth irrational reaction from the chinese. I wish CPC is forced to relinquish power by the oppressed chinese and that China embraces democracy.

The civilised world can no longer see the chinese suffering.

[sukhdeo]

The chickens are coming home to roost. In Sinkiang.

All the Chinese attempt to cultivate Pakistan as a counter to India and to appease Islamic countries in the hopes of winning them over in their larger global power struggle vis-a-vis US and the Russians, have resulted in this. The Sinkiang episodes bring out clearly how short term and stupid the "clever" strategy is, for anybody to follow. The Chinese thought they were too cute by half and very clever in using the Islamists for their ends. It was the Islamists who are using them, as Sinkiang situation clearly points out. One day the Chinese will also realize what a grave mistake they made by biting the hand of friendship that Nehru offered them and embraced the Pakistanis. All the tall claims of "taller than mountain friendships", "friendship for all seasons", "friendship through thick and thin", etc between the Pakistanis and Chinese, will come back to bite the Chinese in the ass. The Islamists are loyal to no one outside of Islam and will think nothing of biting the hand that feeds them, in this case the Chinese.

In Asia or elsewhere, the only challenge I see to the Chinese will come from the Islamic hordes and Islamic pressures, within and outside. No one else, including India has the will to confront the Chinese. The Chinese are vulnerable to the Islamists as the Islamists look at the Chinese as the next place to Islamize after their job of totally Islamizing India is complete. The Islamists are the only force that can outmatch China in will, deviousness and brutality, despite Chinese economic and arms superiority, but nuclear weapons with the Islamists combined with their insurgency tactics also negate the Chinese conventional advantage. The Chinese may not realize this fully, but they do have an inkling, and they are aware of their relative vulnerabilities against the Islamists, which accounts for their coddling and appeasement of Islamic countries, even beyond just using Pakistan to neutralize India. Think about it. Have you ever seen the Chinese appeasing anyone else, other than the Islamic countries ? They act as spoilt children when it comes to the US, Russia and the West, big bullies when it comes to countries in their neighborhood with the exception of Islamic countries.

If the Indians are smart, they will keep reminding the Chinese of their relative weakness with the Islamists in all their diplomatic and other encounters and setup joint committees to study this problem from the perspective of both countries. Hopefully if the Chinese ever come around to forming a common front against the Islamists with India, there could be some give in India's favor on issues such as the border dispute, Arunachal, Tibet etc.

There is even a bigger problem in my hypothesis of above. IS INDIA WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE TO THE CHINESE AND TO ITSELF INTERNALLY, THAT IT HAS AN ISLAMIC PROBLEM AND THAT IT REQUIRES A MULTI-PRONGED STRATEGY WHICH INCLUDES SEVERAL INTERNATIONAL COMMON FRONTS AGANST ISLAM ? Right now, I dont see within India, either the brains or the balls to acknowldge it.

[Liu]

The chickens are coming home to roost. In Sinkiang.

All the Chinese attempt to cultivate Pakistan as a counter to India and to appease Islamic countries in the hopes of winning them over in their larger global power struggle vis-a-vis US and the Russians, have resulted in this. The Sinkiang episodes bring out clearly how short term and stupid the "clever" strategy is, for anybody to follow. The Chinese thought they were too cute by half and very clever in using the Islamists for their ends. It was the Islamists who are using them, as Sinkiang situation clearly points out. One day the Chinese will also realize what a grave mistake they made by biting the hand of friendship that Nehru offered them and embraced the Pakistanis. All the tall claims of "taller than mountain friendships", "friendship for all seasons", "friendship through thick and thin", etc between the Pakistanis and Chinese, will come back to bite the Chinese in the ass. The Islamists are loyal to no one outside of Islam and will think nothing of biting the hand that feeds them, in this case the Chinese.

In Asia or elsewhere, the only challenge I see to the Chinese will come from the Islamic hordes and Islamic pressures, within and outside. No one else, including India has the will to confront the Chinese. The Chinese are vulnerable to the Islamists as the Islamists look at the Chinese as the next place to Islamize after their job of totally Islamizing India is complete. The Islamists are the only force that can outmatch China in will, deviousness and brutality, despite Chinese economic and arms superiority, but nuclear weapons with the Islamists combined with their insurgency tactics also negate the Chinese conventional advantage. The Chinese may not realize this fully, but they do have an inkling, and they are aware of their relative vulnerabilities against the Islamists, which accounts for their coddling and appeasement of Islamic countries, even beyond just using Pakistan to neutralize India. Think about it. Have you ever seen the Chinese appeasing anyone else, other than the Islamic countries ? They act as spoilt children when it comes to the US, Russia and the West, big bullies when it comes to countries in their neighborhood with the exception of Islamic countries.

If the Indians are smart, they will keep reminding the Chinese of their relative weakness with the Islamists in all their diplomatic and other encounters and setup joint committees to study this problem from the perspective of both countries. Hopefully if the Chinese ever come around to forming a common front against the Islamists with India, there could be some give in India's favor on issues such as the border dispute, Arunachal, Tibet etc.

There is even a bigger problem in my hypothesis of above. IS INDIA WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE TO THE CHINESE AND TO ITSELF INTERNALLY, THAT IT HAS AN ISLAMIC PROBLEM AND THAT IT REQUIRES A MULTI-PRONGED STRATEGY WHICH INCLUDES SEVERAL INTERNATIONAL COMMON FRONTS AGANST ISLAM ? Right now, I dont see within India, either the brains or the balls to acknowldge it.

well, you underestimate chinese too much.

once anger of Hans were saturated, We would send all Uyhghurs into labour camps and isolate them from other ethnics .

PLS remember how stalin solved the problem of chechnya ,after Chechen cooperated Nazi Germany during WW II.

Stalin's way may be too rude and simple, but it is indeed a effective way,isn't it? We chinese will study it closely and serioulsy.

Damn the higycrisy "hugman right" and "polictical rightrness". We don't care it.

the only that we care is the security and prosperity of our citizens.

[sukhdeo]

The chickens are coming home to roost. In Sinkiang.

well, you underestimate chinese too much.

once anger of Hans were saturated, We would send all Uyhghurs into labour camps and isolate them from other ethnics .

PLS remember how stalin solved the problem of chechnya ,after Chechen cooperate Nazi Germany during WW II.

Stalin's way may be too rude and simple, but it is indeed a effective way,isn't it? We chinese will study it closely and serioulsy.

Damn the higycrisy "hugman right" and "polictical rightrness". We don't care it.

the only that we care is the security and prosperity of our citizens.

{Stick to arguing points, not making personal jabs at postors. Thx}

You can send the Uighurs to the camps. Stalin may have temporarily defeated the Chechens, but the Chechens came back with a vengeance, didnt they ? If you think you can exterminate the Uighurs, Hitler style, in a literal sense, you are a bigger idiot than the biggest jingos on BRF. Even if you are able to do so, how will you take care of the 1.25 billion, militant, fanatical, brutal, ideologically driven, hell bent to convert, devious hordes of Islamists, a large numbers of them around your border ?

I say all this, having a lot of respect for the Chinese practical ability to negotiate the world around them, which I think is far greater than that of India.

[Yogi_G]

once anger of Hans were saturated, We would send all Uyhghurs into labour camps and isolate them from other ethnics .

Damn the higycrisy "hugman right" and "polictical rightrness". We don't care it.

the only that we care is the security and prosperity of our citizens.

What the Heck? Shame!!

[Yogi_G]

Hans are not the 3rd class citizens.

Well it is nauseating to read your labour camp comment. But just wanted to reply to your comment here,

Party elite and their relatives -- 1st class citizens of China
Mid level party workers and their relatives -- 2nd class citizens of China
Rest of Chinese -- 3rd class citizens of China

Since the Han make up the "Rest of Chinese", heck yeah, they are 3rd class citizens of China

Makes me wonder, is China the poor man's SU?

[Liu]

{Please avoid nonsense posts. Thx}

[Gog]

Hi Liu,
Uigurs and Han Chinese are the same chinese from different regions. Both are great people to be friends with.You should be able to live together in peace and harmony. There is place for everybody. CCP is playing these dirty games to stop you from thinking of democracy and freedom. I would like to see more freedom for all Chinese. Currently Democracy is tha only way. Communism is older than my Great Grandmother who is dead. Throw off the shackles of your bondage. Get back the chinese Digity back from the CCP and PLA thugs. Raise you voice for freedom.

Also CCP will not realise the value of peace until they themselves face violence. Show the CCP what is violence. I encourage you to get your own freedom.

[Sanku]

Makes me wonder, is China the poor man's SU?

Its on that track, a few more years to go now.

[shravan]

Xinjiang protests: Five dead in Urumqi after syringe security clashes
.
.
"On Thursday, fourteen people were injured and sent to hospital and five people were killed in the incidents including two innocent people," Zhang Hong, vice-mayor of Urumqi, told reporters.

He declined to say what he meant by "innocent" and gave no further breakdown of who the dead were.

[Gog]

While Chinese minorities may have legitimate grievances, it could be that these stabbings are being instigated by foreign agencies.

Hi Liu,
It is not at all surpising to hear about this syringe stabbings. CPC's gross human rights violation and Brutal repression has brought forth irrational reaction from the chinese. I wish CPC is forced to relinquish power by the oppressed chinese and that China embraces democracy.

The civilised world can no longer see the chinese suffering.

I have interacted with former soviet union and chinese folks. The CPC and the PLA are nothing but goons. Communists by any other name are communists. They eat the wealth earned by hardworking chinese and behave as though they have earned it. It is slavery in another form for most of the chinese. Outside instigation is not needed for these incidents. CPC repression of chinese is total. Their propoganda is total. They kill innocents at will. They hide statistics of deaths at will. They hide statistics of arrests at will. They reveal things which they want to. We need to help the chinese get freedom. Civilised world cannot accept this anymmore.

Chinese are capable of kicking CPC and PLA out. CCP goose is cooked.

[Liu]

I have interacted with former soviet union and chinese folks. The CPC and the PLA are nothing but goons. Communists by any other name are communists. They eat the wealth earned by hardworking chinese and behave as though they have earned it. It is slavery in another form for most of the chinese. Outside instigation is not needed for these incidents. CPC repression of chinese is total. Their propoganda is total. They kill innocents at will. They hide statistics of deaths at will. They hide statistics of arrests at will. They reveal things which they want to. We need to help the chinese get freedom. Civilised world cannot accept this anymmore.

Chinese are capable of kicking CPC and PLA out. CCP goose is cooked.

CCP may be bad. many of CCP offical are corrupted .however, anyhow, they do leave world-class infrastructure and industrybase for China, after CCP officals pocket the public wealth.

However, Indian babus are worse. your babus are more corrupted. Furthermore, they leave nothing for Indian,after they pockets public wealth.


Sol, I think that Indian people should first kick out your babus and corrupted officals ,then have you impassioned rant.

[Liu]

well, unlike you, I don't take it granted that Democracy is superier to other system.

on the contary, I do think that Plato/Confucious-advocated wisemen-rule is the best.

CHina today is just a chance to carry out such a system.

[Gog]

CCP may be bad. many of CCP offical are corrupted .however, anyhow, they do leave world-class infrastructure and industrybase for China, after CCP officals pocket the public wealth.

However, Indian babus are worse. your babus are more corrupted. Furthermore, they leave nothing for Indian,after they pockets public wealth.


Sol, I think that Indian people should first kick out your babus and corrupted officals ,then have you impassioned rant.

CCP is not just bad. CCP are crroks and thugs. Thugs and bullies by any other name are the same. Thug by the name of God is still a thug.

Babus work at the pleasure of elected representatives. elected representatves can be kicked out by the people anytime we choose. Elected representatives can transfer suspend or kick ot the babus anytime. In this case as per you the official is not being kicked out. that is because CCP tyranny works that way. So in a way you ar opposing CCP anyway. The public pressure would have kicked out the babu long time ago.
World class infrastructure means nothing when you do not have freedom as to who you are governed by. Freedom is everything in most countries. one does not give up freedom for trivial things. Chinese deserve freedom from tyranny.

[Gog]

well, unlike you, I don't take it granted that Democracy is superier to other system.

on the contary, I do think that Plato/Confucious-advocated wisemen-rule is the best.

CHina today is just a chance to carry out such a system.

Hi Liu,
Confucious has nothing to do with communism or CCP. I am suspecting now that you are politburo propaganda member who is interested in enslaving fellow chinese.

At the end of your life you have live with your concious of supporting brutal actions against fellow chinese. I will support and encourage freedom movement in China.

Long live Chinese freedom struggle.!

[Liu]

CCP may be bad. many of CCP offical are corrupted .however, anyhow, they do leave world-class infrastructure and industrybase for China, after CCP officals pocket the public wealth.

However, Indian babus are worse. your babus are more corrupted. Furthermore, they leave nothing for Indian,after they pockets public wealth.


Sol, I think that Indian people should first kick out your babus and corrupted officals ,then have you impassioned rant.

CCP is not just bad. CCP are crroks and thugs. Thugs and bullies by any other name are the same. Thug by the name of God is still a thug.

Babus work at the pleasure of elected representatives. elected representatves can be kicked out by the people anytime we choose. Elected representatives can transfer suspend or kick ot the babus anytime. In this case as per you the official is not being kicked out. that is because CCP tyranny works that way. So in a way you ar opposing CCP anyway. The public pressure would have kicked out the babu long time ago.
World class infrastructure means nothing when you do not have freedom as to who you are governed by. Freedom is everything in most countries. one does not give up freedom for trivial things. Chinese deserve freedom from tyranny.

here is the difference between you and me...maybe between most Indians and chinese:

you indians think it a pleasure to elect one babus ,then kick them out and elect some new babus after several years.

we chinese think it a pleasure to built some infastructures, then demonish it and built some brand-new ones after several years.

So, when sevearl decades passed , You indian find that India has nothing changed but the face of Indian babus while CHinese has everything changed but CCP.

[Liu]

Hi Liu,
Confucious has nothing to do with communism or CCP. I am suspecting now that you are politburo propaganda member who is interested in enslaving fellow chinese.

At the end of your life you have live with your concious of supporting brutal actions against fellow chinese. I will support and encourage freedom movement in China.

Long live Chinese freedom struggle.!

Confucious did insist on the wisemen-rule,just as Plato did.

[Gog]

You did not get the point. When Babu's work at the pleasure. it means the will of the people is paramount. Even the poorest of the poor has a voice. Infrastructure has nothing to do with freedom or democracy. If all you need is one road. It does not mean much to sacrifice your freedom for 16 lane highway which you will not use any way.


It is like giving you a toy which you will not use and then put you in a cage.

The discussion is not about infrastruture but freedom. You as a politburo propoganda member are enslaving fellow chinese.

Human beings as well as animals are born free and should be allowed to die free. Freedom is my birth right . Freedom is a granted privilige in a democracy. There will be imperfections. But principles of liberty equality and franternity are paramount.

You maybe priviliged to be a politburo member but other chinese are struggling to make a living. The repression of CCP on the chinese is total. The Brutal repression of CCP has brought forth the syringe stabbings.

Help other chinese get western style democracy.

at what point will you ask for your freedom??. Dont be part of a repressive regime.

[Gog]

Confucious did insist on the wisemen-rule,just as Plato did.

Wisemen should rule. no doubt about that. That does not mean communism. Hitler thought he was the wisest. But he was'nt. Give back freedom to chinese. Kick the CCP and PLA goons out.

[Liu]

let me tell one truth:

economy is the base while all others ,including politcal system,are all the upper buildings on the base.

"west democarcy" on the backward economy base always just get deformd,just as India's babaus-ruled democracy ,African tribe-decided democracy and Latin-amrican tycoon-ruled deomocracy.

[sukhdeo]

I agree. But my serious post about China and the Islamists, which by the way was not in response to Liu, was "seriously" drowned out in all the jingoistic clutter.

Besides, its not important whether Liu exists or not, the ideas posted under his name, some of them, warrant serious attention. Some of his jingoism is idiotic, just like our jingoism is idiotic. His ideas that have merit is this economy first idea and the idea that the Chinese can take care of the Islamists, if it came to a head. What he fails to realize is that the Islamists are not going to ever conventionally attack China. They will act like termite, subverting the Chinese system, blackmailing them into more and more concessions, converting them from within and eating away at them from the periphery.