Indian Naval Discussion

maz · Post by **maz** » 05 Sep 2009 21:08

Admiral G.M. Hiranandani, 78, former VCNS and the Official Historian of the Indian Navy passed away earlier this week. For students of the Indian Navy, Adml Hira, as he was known, was best known for his IN history books with an unsurpassed wealth of information. His first volume, “Transition to Triumph” covering the period 1965 to 1975 was published by Lancer Publishers in 1999 followed by “Transition to Eminence” covering the period 1976 to 1990 which was also published by Lancer in 2004.

He recently completed the third book in the trilogy, “Introspection & Consolidation” just before his death and the book will be released by President Pratibha Patil on Navy Day on December 4. Adml Hira will be sadly missed but his legacy will live on for ever. Condolences to the late Admiral's family from one and all at Bharat Rakshak.

More details at http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/ke ... e14650.ece

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2009 10:06

sankum wrote:MOD 2008-09 Annual Report download
http://mod.nic.in/reports/AR-eng-2009.pdf

good to see some people still believe in old fashioned information hunting from reliable sources rather than hot air.
thanks.

guys, go through the MOD report, especially the DRDO section. a lot of interesting nuggets.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 06 Sep 2009 14:12

Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) System:
Under the AIP programme for using
this mode for submarine propulsion,
demonstration of relevant enabling
technologies of sub systems pertaining to
AIP technology are being demonstrated.
Under this a 300W Air – Hydrogen
ambient temperature fuel cell stack using
nafion membrane has been developed and
demonstrated.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Sep 2009 15:28

To be practically useful in submarine , they need to develop AIP which can generate 300kW

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Sep 2009 15:35

A N-reactor is the only true AIP...

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Sep 2009 18:16

maz wrote:........... For students of the Indian Navy, Adml Hira, as he was known, was best known for his IN history books with an unsurpassed wealth of information. His first volume, “Transition to Triumph” covering the period 1965 to 1975 was published by Lancer Publishers in 1999 followed by “Transition to Eminence” covering the period 1976 to 1990 which was also published by Lancer in 2004. ...............

For those that missed out in the past on the mentioned books by the late Admiral Hiranandani, both volumes are available at the Indian Navy website:

History Of The Indian Navy

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 07 Sep 2009 00:39

A few pics of the interior of the Scorpne Class.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6351 ... ninsid.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/746/ ... insidx.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4471 ... insidh.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9103 ... insidm.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6351 ... ninsid.jpg

These all are pics of Malaysian Scorpne class sub.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Sep 2009 19:15

Great pity about Adm.Hiranandani passing away.His books are a fitting tribute to his memory.I look forward to the release.

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 07 Sep 2009 19:54

Hi-tec looking cockpit of KA-31 chopper, India is planning to go for more of the same.

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58 ... ockpit.jpg

Image courtesy www.pilot.strizhi.info

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2009 20:39

soutikghosh wrote:A few pics of the interior of the Scorpne Class.

Thanks for the links - very interesting. What is in the last pic?

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 07 Sep 2009 23:40

shiv wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:A few pics of the interior of the Scorpne Class.
Thanks for the links - very interesting. What is in the last pic?

Diesel generator/ Engine room.

atma · Post by **atma** » 07 Sep 2009 23:45

maz wrote:
........... For students of the Indian Navy, Adml Hira, as he was known, was best known for his IN history books with an unsurpassed wealth of information. His first volume, “Transition to Triumph” covering the period 1965 to 1975 was published by Lancer Publishers in 1999 followed by “Transition to Eminence” covering the period 1976 to 1990 which was also published by Lancer in 2004. ...............

I have read Admiral Hiranandani's books and I will miss him. A wonderful soul, with an insightful way of describing history in detail. I have ordered his third book.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 08 Sep 2009 00:10

soutikghosh wrote:A few pics of the interior of the Scorpne Class.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/746/ ... insidx.jpg

Is it me or was the toilet not flushed after use?

-M

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2009 07:18

soutikghosh wrote:A few pics of the interior of the Scorpne Class.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6351 ... ninsid.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/746/ ... insidx.jpg

If you enlarge these pics - you will find that the finish looks very tacky (metal strips with screws around bunks) and very rough (cement on floor on left side of toilet pic)

I have 2 points to make

1) It does not matter
2) How come nobody has as keen an eye for this as we have for Indian origin pics?

</ chaabi giving mode >

maz · Post by **maz** » 08 Sep 2009 08:00

SDBs T-59, T-60 decomissioned on 07 Sep 2009

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_t- ... rs_1288358

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 08 Sep 2009 08:06

Hi Mr Mazumdar

I was wondering if you got my email??

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Sep 2009 01:22

Navy snaps up Kaveri engine built for Air Force.

The indigenous Kaveri aircraft engine, soon to make its debut flight, lacks the muscle needed by India's Tejas light combat aircraft, which the engine was designed to power. In its present form, the Kaveri will never power a modern fighter.

But the engine's technology -- developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, over two decades, at a cost of Rs 3000 crore -- will not be wasted. The Indian Navy is snapping up the Kaveri for powering its growing fleet of warships.

The Navy has officially informed the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (the DRDO laboratory that developed the Kaveri) that naval warships will need 40 Kaveri Marine Gas Turbines over the next 15 years.

In an important signal of its support, the Navy has agreed to fund 25 per cent of the cost of the KMGT project.

GTRE has developed the marine Kaveri by modifying the aero engine with a shaft, through which power can be delivered to a propeller. The Navy has extensively tested these engines at Vishakhapatnam and found that the marine Kaveri can deliver 12 Megawatts (16,000 Horsepower) of propulsion power.

Typically warships run on regular diesel engines; gas turbines (such as the Kaveri) are added on to provide 'boost power', needed for manoeuvring in battle. Contemporary gas turbines, such as the General Electric LM2500, provide India's latest 5000-tonne Shivalik class frigates with 22 MW of boost. The Kaveri's more modest 12 MW is sufficient only for smaller warships.

While the marine Kaveri's basic performance has been established (even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [ Images ] has seen a demonstration in Visakhapatnam [ Images ]), the GTRE Director, Dr Mohana Rao, is not yet satisfied with the basic design.

"So far, the KMGT is just a spin-off from the aero version," said Rao. "I want to give the Navy an engine with far greater endurance. An aero engine's life is just 3000 hours; a marine engine's life should be 30,000 hours. I must physically test the KMGT for at least 15,000 hours."

GTRE is going ahead with developing 3-4 test engines and beginning trials within three years. The trials will be conducted in a marine environment, which will include high humidity, and prolonged exposure to salt.

"We plan to begin delivery in about 6 years", says the GTRE director, "We hope to keep the cost below Rs 25-30 crores, which is considerably cheaper than buying imported gas turbines."

Earlier this year, the United States State Department had stopped General Electric from fitting its LM-2500 turbines on the INS Shivalik, apparently because GE had not obtained proper permissions from the US government.

Other than the 40 KMGTs, the Indian Navy has also issued a letter laying out a requirement for 42 Gas Turbine Generators, or GTGs. These are de-rated versions of the marine Kaveri, which will be used for generating electrical power on warships. Each GTG generates 1.2 Megawatts of power.

The Indian Navy, an enthusiastic proponent of indigenisation, proposes to replace the diesel generators fitted on older warships with the Kaveri GTG. If it performs well over a period of time, the new-generation warships will also get electrical power from the Kaveri GTG. Currently, only the Rajput and Delhi [ Images ] class of destroyers use gas turbines for power generation

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Sep 2009 01:38

From Deccan Chronicle about the new operating area for the IN.

Deccan Chronicle, Sept., 8, 2009

Will Gulf of Aden be a new LoC for Navy?
September 8th, 2009
By Shankar Roychowdhury

A few months back the Russian warship Admiral Panteleyev, reportedly responding to a distress signal from the tanker Bulwai Bank, under attack from Somali pirates 120 km east of the Somali coast, tracked down a captured Iranian trawler being used as a command-and-control ship for pirate vessels, and apprehended 12 Pakistani nationals on board, including its captain, Mr Mohammad Zamal. Russian investigators found that those apprehended were well trained and familiar with weapons handling (seven AK-47 assault rifles as well as pistols were recovered), as well as with military and naval procedures. There are other persistent media reports of “well-trained” Pakistanis directing Somali piracy operations near the coast of East Africa — off the Somali coast and in the Gulf of Aden. If this is correct, it would appear to indicate that Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, that country’s official clearing house for covert and subversive operations, may have extended its charter to Somalia and the Horn of Africa. This is a matter of concern for India, since in addition to general piracy, smuggling and gun-running, there is every likelihood of the ISI directing its marine jihadis to specifically seek out and target Indian merchant shipping, or ships bound for or out of Indian ports, and interdict or interfere with Indian maritime activity to whatever degree feasible. Indian economic interests and energy security are likely to be particularly affected because the Afghanistan experience indicates that these are always primary targets of Pakistani quasi-state covert entities, whether labelled Al Qaeda, Taliban, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba or any other.
Ninety per cent of India’s total overseas trade, in particular the vital energy resources on which the country is critically dependent for 80 per cent of its demand, is carried by sea routes focusing in and out of Mumbai, the principal port in the country. The country’s maritime jugular traverses westwards through the Arabian Sea and connects with destinations in Europe and the energy centres of the Persian Gulf and elsewhere in the West Asian region through strategic choke points along the East African and Arabian littorals around the Horn of Africa. Notable among these are the Gulf of Aden and the Straits of Hormuz at the entrance to the Red Sea en route to the Suez Canal and beyond, and the Straits of Bab el Mandep at the entrance to the Persian Gulf. These waters are India’s new frontiers for national security.
Somalia lies on the East African coast of the Arabian Sea, across the street from Mumbai as it were, in a position strategic to India’s maritime interests, dominating the Gulf of Aden through which passes India’s main maritime expressway. A predominantly Muslim country, the largest in the Horn of Africa, Somalia’s traditional faith has now acquired increasingly radical overtones under the influence of indigenous jihadi organisations like the Islamic Courts Union (ICU) and Al Shabab (“The Youth”), which have taken root in the region, reinforced by foreign fighters from ongoing conflicts in Yemen, Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, with its lack of any central authority, and very strong clan-based affinities and culture, Somalia has much in common with the Pashtun regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan, notwithstanding the obvious differences in ethnicity, and provides similar environments for rapid spread of jihadi influence. The country has been ripped apart by bitter and intermittent inter-clan wars ever since the collapse of President Mohammad Siad Barre’s national government in 1991. A United Nations Peacekeeping Force was sent to maintain peace and restore order in the country, in which the Indian Army’s 66 Mountain Brigade formed part of the mission. As always, the Indian contingent performed outstandingly, but the United Nations were unsuccessful overall and had to withdraw after suffering casualties. (The Hollywood movie Black Hawk Down is based on a true incident during that period.) Since then, constant internecine conflicts between warring clans and warlords, military intervention by neighbouring Ethiopia and the increasing intensity of radical jihad have almost totally destabilised the country and reduced Somalia to a status worse than Afghanistan. The prevalent state of total anarchy has impacted not only neighbouring Ethiopia and Kenya, but also spread to the seas around the Horn of Africa, particularly the Gulf of Aden, which have become zones for free enterprise for increasingly well-equipped and directed Somali pirates preying on international merchant shipping from fishing trawlers to supertankers which traverse these waters at their peril.

Notwithstanding any potential fallout targeted specifically at Indian shipping, piracy in the Gulf of Aden is also a cause of major international concern. After a slow start, Western governments dispatched naval ships to safeguard shipping in the region, irrespective of nationality. Combined Task Force 150 (CTF-150) was established as an American-led multinational naval anti-piracy mission, based on logistical facilities in the adjacent French African enclave of Djibouti on the Red Sea. The task force consists of ships from seven nations, with a rotating command structure between the members. The Indian Navy has not contributed to CTF-50, but operates independently with a naval detachment in the region, initially based on INS Tabar, later replaced by INS Mysore, on a bilateral understanding with the Somali government, which though severely incapacitated and barely functional, nevertheless remains the legitimate national authority. The Indian Navy has performed very successfully ints anti-piracy mission, in many ways a marine replica of the counter-insurgency operations being conducted by its sister service in the Kashmir Valley. However, Somalia and the Gulf of Aden are as yet small clouds on a distant horizon. But if, as in Afghanistan, a “plausibly deniable” Pakistani intervention through the tested pattern of jihadi surrogates is developing on the East African littoral to turn the Gulf of Aden into a maritime Khyber Pass for Indian shipping and trade, the Indian government will have no choice but to put appropriate counter-measures in place at the earliest, to forestall a Limburg-type suicide bombing or an Achille Lauro-type hijacking and passenger hostage situation involving Indian shipping or personnel. All in all, the Gulf of Aden (and possibly even the Persian Gulf) might turn into a long-duration “Line of Control” proxy war commitment for the Indian Navy.

* Gen. Shankar
Roychowdhury (Retd) is a former Chief of
Army Staff and a former Member of Parliament

Very insightful article.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Sep 2009 02:25

I have been a proponent of India controlling the Horn of Africa for a very long time (in addition to taking over Chittagong Tracts). So, this is a "welcome" article.

Now with potential introduction of the ISI in the mix it is even more important to break up Pakistan from an Indian PoV. And, I am sure this would not be lost on the Americans. Jai Ho ISI, shoot yourself in the foot a few more times.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 09 Sep 2009 03:07

Several folks including moi have been screaming about trust issues. Guess some aspects of the deal have kicked off concerns with P-8I.. just a tad bit late.

GeorgeWelch wrote: Either they will come to acceptable terms with the US in which case all your concerns will have been alleviated, or they won't and the whole discussion is moot.

This is going to be such an intensely scrutinized deal, that if it passes you can be confident that there won't be any "gotha's".
Leaving technical side of things aside, any deal that "NEEDS to be put in excrutiatingly great detail" is already set to be a messy affair. Getting caught up in choosing every word and phrase, will invariably create more chinks in armor. It sounds counter-intuitive, but infact, the greater the detail, the greater the loopholes (more appropriately "chinks"), depending on how badly one sides reads the other side.

At some point, it comes down to faith in the opposite party. It is highly lacking, justifybly so.

Livefist : Devil in the Details, P-8I..

According to Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments, the US will be liable for no penalties in the event that any "malicious code" is detected in the software that governs the P-8I's sensors and systems. Malicious code, among other things, could include deliberately embedded bits of software designed to do one or many of a variety of things, which could include encrypted recording of platform usage information -- data that only American inspectors will be able to decrypt during end-user inspections, without making it apparently so. Sound far-fetched. It apparently isn't. Anyway, the point is, if Indian engineers are lucky enough to detect the malicious software (in some fortuitous spasm of counter-intelligence), then as per the contract on paper, there will be no penalties. All the US will have to do is to modify the hardware or software and remove the malicious code, with no other liabilities.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Sep 2009 19:41

Indian Navy to induct MiG-29 Ks by Oct

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 09 Sep 2009 20:53

Nuclear submarine India’s best second strike bet: Roy

http://www.zeenews.com/zee-exclusive/20 ... 9news.html#

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 10 Sep 2009 00:08

Chinese cargo ship sinking off Paradeep port

Paradeep, Sept 9 (PTI) A Chinese cargo vessel carrying iron ore and 27 crew members is sinking three km off Paradeep port in Orissa but all but one of the men have been rescued.

Twenty six of the crew members had been rescued by the Coast Guard and CISF personnel and only the Captain of the ship "Black Rose" is still in it, CG and Paradeep Port authorities said.

'The ship started sinking about an hour ago and 75 per cent of it has already sunk ... The remaining crew member will be evacuated any time now,' Coast Guard Commandant, Paradeep, S Verghese said told PTI.

The ship is suspected to have developed a leak, he said.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Sep 2009 00:25

India pays USD 102 million to speed up refit of Gorshkov

Moscow, Sept 8:
India has paid another staggering USD 102 million to Russia, to speed up refit work on the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, pending a final agreement on a huge price hike of almost USD 2 billion demanded by Moscow.
"The advance payment of USD 102 million has given a fillip to repairs and refit works. The workforce would be increased to 2500 for work in two shifts," spokesperson of the Sevmash shipyard Anastasia Nikitinskaya said as Russian officials committed that they would meet the 2012 delivery deadline.
The increasing delay in the delivery of the warship has been described by President Dmitry Medvedev as the 'sole irritant' in Indo-Russian relations.
The issue came up in the delegation level talks between President Pratibha Devisingh Patil and her Soviet counterpart on September 3, during her first state visit to the country.

Director General of Severodvinsk-based Sevmash shipyard Nikolai Kalistratov along with his Chief Engineer was also present at the talks held at Kremlin.

Under the initial USD 1.5 billion contract signed in New Delhi in January 2004, Russia was to deliver retrofitted aircraft carrier in August 2008.

However, the Sevmash shipyard later demanded that USD 974 million allocated for the upgradation of the 44.5 thousand ton vessel, given to the Indian Navy 'free of cost', was not sufficient and demanded an additional sum of USD 2.2 billion. According to Chairman of Russian Technologies State Corporation, Sergei Chemezev, the talks are currently underway for negotiating a new agreement, which may be signed in mid-October. An Indian delegation is expected in Moscow later this month to finalise the accord, even as media reports have suggested that New Delhi's final offer was to pay an additional amount of USD 1.2 billion. Sources here say that although the cost escalation was a 'natural' process due to changed requirements of the Indian Navy, a lot of money paid by India had 'dried up' in the banks for almost four years, with practically no work done on the warship.

Upgradation of Gorshkov, to be inducted as INS Vikramaditya, is expected to be completed in 2011, after which it would undergo sea-trials for delivery in 2012.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Sep 2009 00:56

Four MiG-29 fighter jets to join Indian navy in October - source

The two MiG-29Ks and two MiG-29KUBs were officially transferred to India earlier this year. They were inspected by Indian technical experts and used in a five-month flight training course for the Indian pilots.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 10 Sep 2009 01:52

a_kumar wrote:Several folks including moi have been screaming about trust issues. Guess some aspects of the deal have kicked off concerns with P-8I.. just a tad bit late.

Livefist : Devil in the Details, P-8I..

According to Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments, the US will be liable for no penalties in the event that any "malicious code" is detected in the software that governs the P-8I's sensors and systems. Malicious code, among other things, could include deliberately embedded bits of software designed to do one or many of a variety of things, which could include encrypted recording of platform usage information -- data that only American inspectors will be able to decrypt during end-user inspections, without making it apparently so. Sound far-fetched. It apparently isn't. Anyway, the point is, if Indian engineers are lucky enough to detect the malicious software (in some fortuitous spasm of counter-intelligence), then as per the contract on paper, there will be no penalties. All the US will have to do is to modify the hardware or software and remove the malicious code, with no other liabilities.

BTW does the deal include sharing of Code?? If not someone has to go through the assembly code.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Sep 2009 02:30

BTW does the deal include sharing of Code?? If not someone has to go through the assembly code.

Malicious code means that you find it when you tell the AC to go West and it goes East!

Or an ISI agent on a mother boat near Yemen waves with a smile.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 10 Sep 2009 02:38

rajsunder wrote: BTW does the deal include sharing of Code?? If not someone has to go through the assembly code.

Generally, forget assembly code, everybody wants to get away with giving just the binary files (or exe etc). More so with critical pieces they want to guard.

I think Boeing would be in same boat.. would be glad to be corrected.

If that is the case, there is no way in hell anyone can detect a trojan. If it makes us feel any better, from that perspective, even having the clause is of no use.

Added Later : I like NRao's explanation better

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 10 Sep 2009 06:34

I guess wiki may not be the best or most accurate source on this therefore i wanted to ask, as i'd be surprised if we do - does Indian Navy have one of these ?

(or ever operate one of these ?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Navy#Aircraft

The Aircraft used for carrying out roles of a strategic bomber and as a maritime strike are carried out by 4(3 more on order) Tupolev Tu-22M, which is also capable of performing reconnaissance missions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22M#Export

Tupolev has sought export customers for the Tu-22M since 1992, with possible customers including Iran, India and the People's Republic of China, but no sales have apparently materialized. Four were leased to India in 2001 for maritime reconnaissance and strike purposes.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 10 Sep 2009 06:37

Shankar wrote:
Left me dumbfounded as to how the maha-stupid politicians in India let the HDW line at Mazagaon go cold when it is so capable and after so much had been spent on getting the required knowhow. And as some other Admiral mentioned earlier in a report on the INS Arihant, it was the Germans who were very liberal in sharing knowledge related to submarine development. I wonder how much pressure the IN must've put on the GoI, or did the then Admiral simply kowtow to political diktats ? We know what George Fernandes did to Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat..
carriers are getting vulnerable no doubt -some times wonder whether it is worth having and that too small ones like virat - before gorky gets in we need to boost our sub force significantly or we have problem in hand . Even an akula may not be enough in a tricky situation

The Gorshkov will never be anything but a showpiece vessel; it will never see combat. I've been saying that since 2002, and nothing I've read since then has convinced me otherwise. In any war scenario, our naval planners would be unwilling to risk the Gorshkov with so many potent anti-ship missiles that could be easily brought to bear. Pakistan's bristling with these, not just from the submarines but also naval aircraft and small missile boats, all of which are too numerous and too hard for us to detect. We're just not up to the challenge - for that you need truly effective AWACS coverage, you need lots of screening vessels and submarines to cover a huge area around the carrier, you need integrated missile defense systems like AEGIS, and a hell of a lot of training. Even the USN didn't really get good at this until well into the "Tanker War" back in the 80's.

We're just not there yet, and I think the IN knows this. In the event of war, they'd be loath to risk losing an expensive national treasure like the Gorshkov. Can you imagine the embarrassment of the IN losing it's only carrier, especially considering how much pride, money, and prestige we pumped into this thing? No, what would happen is the Mig-29's and helos would get relocated to some airbase in Gujarat while the Gorshkov would be tucked away someplace safe deep within Mumbai's harbors.

But if it's any consolation, the Gorshkov can at least serve as a good training platform and testbed for many years to come. In any case, whether or not the Gorshkov could actually be used in combat is really an academic question, as the likelihood of India fighting any war is so incredibly remote.

John · Post by **John** » 10 Sep 2009 07:36

Vishal Jolapara wrote:I guess wiki may not be the best or most accurate source on this therefore i wanted to ask, as i'd be surprised if we do - does Indian Navy have one of these ? (or ever operate one of these ?)

IN doesn't operate any Tu-22M3s.

Y. Kanan wrote:The Gorshkov will never be anything but a showpiece vessel; it will never see combat. I've been saying that since 2002, and nothing I've read since then has convinced me otherwise. In any war scenario, our naval planners would be unwilling to risk the Gorshkov with so many potent anti-ship missiles that could be easily brought to bear. Pakistan's bristling with these, not just from the submarines but also naval aircraft and small missile boats, all of which are too numerous and too hard for us to detect. We're just not up to the challenge - for that you need truly effective AWACS coverage, you need lots of screening vessels and submarines to cover a huge area around the carrier, you need integrated missile defense systems like AEGIS, and a hell of a lot of training. Even the USN didn't really get good at this until well into the "Tanker War" back in the 80's.

Pakistan has 25 Sub launched Exocets, 20 C-802, 40 C-803 (Ship launched), 68 Air launched Harpoons as per Sipri; no where as much as what Iraqis had during the tanker wars. PN does not have enough to mass large stand off attack to overwhelm the point defense systems and Mig-29K are definite step up from Harriers with their BVR and the intercept speed. China in other hand is far different story and would require better fleet defense capability even if the fleet is operating close to sub continent.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 10 Sep 2009 07:54

John saar, I agree with the above assessment that Tongchi will be a different story, I would like to add that on our side the Barak NG/8 and Barak 1 combo combined with Shtil ityadi will also complicate the situation for them as well To this we may also add the Phalcon's all seeing eyes and also the DRDO's Yindoo AEW in addition to Naval Awacs, P-8s ityadi all in all it is going to complicate the situation for Tongchi more so IMVHO than it will for us as the protective umbrella on our vessels is going to increase dramatically in size and quality...JMT

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Sep 2009 08:06

We're just not there yet, and I think the IN knows this.

I am glad that the IN knows that it will get there some time. Perhaps in the near future.

BTW, will it be a one-on-one? INS Vicky vs. Paki missiles?

Or will it more like IN vs. PN? With support from IAF?

The real question I have is IF the PN ships will leave port. Surely the subs will.

........................ or will they? I would assume that the Paki subs will also be as valued an asset as the INS Vicky. And, so they would need to be tucked away too?

This is all getting too confusing. Malicious software somewhere.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 10 Sep 2009 09:30

Rather than using Groshov in an attacking posture, the IN may probably use it as a bait just like in the 71 to attract the Pak Subs, sometimes its easier to let the enemy close in on you to destroy it. It is a definite bait as the PN knows it would hurt IN the most if it loses the AC.

And the AC will provide air cover to other IN ships which may be on the offensive. But I do not expect IN using Mig 29K from Groshov to attack the Karachi/Gwadar port, that would be left for the IAF, to raid from the skies.

JMT

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 10 Sep 2009 10:04

JimmyJ wrote:Rather than using Groshov in an attacking posture, the IN may probably use it as a bait just like in the 71 to attract the Pak Subs, sometimes its easier to let the enemy close in on you to destroy it. It is a definite bait as the PN knows it would hurt IN the most if it loses the AC.

A $3 billion bait?i dont think so. all the pain that IN is taking with regards to Gorky is,to use it in war,when we are at war it doesnt matter if we lose the AC,it may be a bit demoralising, but Gorky will do its job before it is sunk,if so.

probably 10-20 PN ships sunk and Karachi in rubble

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 10 Sep 2009 10:44

10-20 ships? PN doesn't have that many ships. The gorky is ideal for positioning far away from Indian coast and striking pakistani ports and navy at will from any direction of our choosing. Mig-29k and -LCA are potent enough for PN or PAF.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 10 Sep 2009 11:36

Can someone get hold of this paper?

China's 'String of Pearls' in the Indian Ocean and Its Security Implications

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... order=page

Author: Gurpreet S. Khurana a
Affiliation: a IDSA,

Abstract
China's efforts to build 'nodes' of influence in the Indian Ocean Region have been increasingly discernible in recent years. This endeavour, many argue, is driven by Beijing's military-strategic ends. However, such an argument remains a speculation, backed by frail and somewhat disjointed evidence. At least in the public domain, it may be too early to marshal tangible evidence to prove or dismiss the hypothesis. An assessment is nonetheless crucial because notwithstanding China's legitimate interests in the Indian Ocean, its naval presence in these waters would bear strongly upon the security calculi of India in particular and those of other major powers. From the study of available information, this paper attempts to derive China's objectives in the Indian Ocean, its approach and the attendant security ramifications for India.

Inteview of Gurpreet Khurana by Iskander Rehman.

http://indiangeopolitics.blogspot.com/2 ... urana.html

Would you say that the Chinese PLN (People's Liberation Navy) is now viewed by the Indian Navy as the number one threat in the region?

Definitely, and far more so than the Pakistani Navy, which is viewed more as a potential nuisance than a genuine threat. India is, of course, most concerned about China's 'string of pearls', as it considers it to be the outlining of a maritime containment policy.

In one of my articles, however, I point out that these Indian fears are somewhat overstated.

(http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... order=page)

The fact is that it is still somewhat unclear whether China's strengthening of its ties with IOR littorals are merely economic endeavours, as they themselves claim, or whether they are driven by strategic and military considerations. There is no tangible evidence that the ports and infrastructure that the PRC is building throughout the region are overtly military in nature.

Of course it's obvious that China, sooner or later, is going to consider the possibility of making these structures 'dual use' facilities, which can be used for both commercial and military purposes.

Gwadar, the deep-sea port in the Arabian Sea off the coast of Pakistan has the most dangerous potenial in this regard. The Chinese have invested an enormous amount of money in its construction, and they will naturally want some form of return, probably by stationing submarines. Similarly, Chinese admirals have been spotted being given guided tours of the Coco Islands by high-ranking members of the Myanamarese junta. This, in my view, definitely adds some credibility to the rumours of a Chinese SIGINT facility at that location.

There are rumours that China is acquiring a combat operational aircraft carrier. Does this mean that the Indian Navy will lose its comparative advantage in terms of strategic projection in the Indian Ocean region?

There are indeed rumours that the Varyag, a Soviet carrier that the PRC purchased from Ukraine, and that is currently being refurbished in China, will become an operational carrier in two to three years. In my view though, the Varyag will not take part in military operations and will be used as a training carrier.

China does have an Indigenous Carrier Project though, and Chinese military officials have stated in the past that they would like to deploy an aircraft carrier by 2015.

Carriers can only operate effectively in groups however, and need to be provided with escorts. Very few Chinese ships have adequate air defence systems (they tend to be equipped with Russian systems that are less reliable than the American or Israeli systems that their Indian counterparts are now increasingly equipped with), and a Chinese carrier deployed in the Indian Ocean would be a sitting duck for the Indian Air Force and Indian Naval Aviation.

The only vessels that China can deploy in the Indian Ocean are its underwater assets, but in order to sustain these forces in the area for a long period of time, China would have to maintain a permanent presence in the region in the form of ports of call and refuelling stations. (hence, some say, the 'String of Pearls')

For the time being though, China would not be able to launch an effective naval expedition in the IOR?
Not in the short to medium term, that's for sure. Which means, if one uses a naval strategic planning time framework, not for the next two to three decades.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Sep 2009 11:47

JimmyJ wrote:Rather than using Groshov in an attacking posture, the IN may probably use it as a bait just like in the 71 to attract the Pak Subs, sometimes its easier to let the enemy close in on you to destroy it. It is a definite bait as the PN knows it would hurt IN the most if it loses the AC.

And the AC will provide air cover to other IN ships which may be on the offensive. But I do not expect IN using Mig 29K from Groshov to attack the Karachi/Gwadar port, that would be left for the IAF, to raid from the skies.

JMT

I,

The Supreme Honourable Admiral CEO of the Yindoo Mighty Fleet of the Oceans,

will put INS Vikramaditya about 500 kms beyond the Pak coast, definitely beyond the range of the land based aircraft. Somewhere in mid Arabian Sea. I would use A/C to provide aircover and ASW cover to my shipping from ME / Gulf to Mumbai and southern India.

Similarly I would use my second A/C between A&N Island and continental India, to prevent the Chinese from mis behaving. I do not need an A/C to protect my A&N assets. A&N Islands are an A/C. I would build a (large) number of air strips with some minimal infrastructure and disperse some SU 30MKI, with Kh 31 and maybe Brahmos. A flight of 3 P 8I would be my eyes and ears

And I sit back licking my lips waiting for PLAN surface fleet.

K

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 10 Sep 2009 12:30

csharma wrote:Can someone get hold of this paper?

Please post your email address, i will send you the pdf.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 10 Sep 2009 12:58

Lord Admiral Sir, do tell us how you plan to counter the Agostas creeping in at 3knots (or lesser) at 150 mts depth toward your high chair just 500 kms from Puke ports