J & K news and discussion

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Sep 2009 12:11

The informer on whose info the RR went into the encounter will have a "royal" time in some dungeon (if it was the informers mischief).

However, good that the sacrifice didn't go in vain and two top pigLeTs were sent to houristan...

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Sep 2009 15:54

Perhaps the cancellation of his room booking by the Tata Group owned Taj Pierre hotel :

NY Taj cancels Gaddafi booking

………. was a cause of Col. Gaddafi’s outburst about Jammu and Kashmir at the UN

:

At UN, Gaddafi drops K-bomb

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 24 Sep 2009 17:29

^From the TOI link,
>>At one point, he even blamed India and Japan for robbing Somalia of its fishing wealth, forcing Somalis to take up piracy.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Sep 2009 17:34

http://www.ndtv.com/news/world/gaddafi_ ... ouncil.php

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 24 Sep 2009 19:18

I heard Obama and Gadhafi.

Both were eloquent in their own ways.

Gadhafi was an interesting diversion to the serious business of the UN.

Without his type, how would it not be the circus that it is?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Sep 2009 19:33

his men even tried to set up a tent of some sort !

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Sep 2009 20:56

Gaddafi is the biggest comedian I know. I love listening to his speeches, he loves to go on a rant about everyone! In the arab summit earlier he was calling himself the King of Kings, King of Africans bla bla. He started criticising all the arab kings in the room openly and quite offensively. Caused a few verbal arguments openly.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 24 Sep 2009 21:37

Avinash R wrote:^From the TOI link,
>>At one point, he even blamed India and Japan for robbing Somalia of its fishing wealth, forcing Somalis to take up piracy.

I'm waiting for the day when there is a Somalia Navnirman Sena protesting India's presence in Somalian fisheries

satya · Post by **satya** » 24 Sep 2009 21:54

Has someone noticed more & more COIN ops been conducted away from major populated areas , it definitely points to success of COIN strategy of our Armed Forces.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 24 Sep 2009 22:39

arun wrote:At UN, Gaddafi drops K-bomb

Most of Gaddafi’s rant was aimed at US and the western world, although he did not spare others, including the UN Security Council. At one point, he even blamed India and Japan for robbing Somalia of its fishing wealth, forcing Somalis to take up piracy.

Within hours of this loose cannon gaddafi's rants against India there is report of al qaeda planning attacks on indian sailors along somalia coast. Libya was one of the customers of pakistani a.q.khan's nuclear blackmarket. There is even one cricket stadium named after gaddafi in pakistan. It's obvious who is encouraging attacks against indian sailors.

Nato warns India of Somali pirate attacks
24 Sep 2009, 1337 hrs IST
http://www.timesnow.tv/Nato-warns-India ... 328084.cms

There are huge concerns in Indian maritime circles following a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) warning to the Indian government on Thursday (September 24), of a major plot by Somali pirates to target Indian vessels and sailors.

The NATO leadership has infact said that there is specific intelligence available with them to suggest that pro-Al Qaeda elements among Somali Pirates are plotting to target Indian ships and sailors in the next few weeks.

Deputy Chief of Staff H C Helseth said, "There are Indian warships, NATO warships and warships of other nations and organisations in the gulf of Aden. These co-operate closely, share information and data. So already there is good tactical co-ordination. It is a strategic wish of NATO to get contacts with regional powers and India is an important nation to us."

India has already stepped up a vigil along the trading sea lanes that are visited by Somali Pirates. But following the intelligence reports NATO naval units have agreed to assist the Indian Navy in patrolling the perilious waters near the gulf.

Earlier, a NATO warship rescued fourteen Indian sailors off Somalia, a day after they were freed by pirates who, they say, had beaten them during 10 days of captivity. A NATO warship somewhere off the shore of Somalia. Emergency crews drive out to a boat carrying 14 Indian sailors.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 24 Sep 2009 22:46

shyamd wrote: In the arab summit earlier he was calling himself the King of Kings, King of Africans bla bla. He started criticising all the arab kings in the room openly and quite offensively. Caused a few verbal arguments openly.

He was actually given this title
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7588033.stm

A meeting of more than 200 African kings and traditional rulers has bestowed the title "king of kings" on Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi

The Arab League outburst was classic
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... oduct.html

The Libyan leader was at an Arab gathering in Qatar yesterday when he seized the microphone to furiously denounce the Saudi king as a 'liar'. When his Qatari hosts tried to quieten him down, Gaddafi - the current chairman of the African Union - insisted he would not be silenced. I am an international leader, the dean of the Arab rulers, the king of kings of Africa and the imam (leader) of Muslims, and my international status does not allow me to descend to a lower level,' he said.
He then got up and walked out of the hall.

A year earlier, he sat smoking cigars on the conference floor of a Tunisian summit to show his contempt for the other leaders.

According to John Simpson of the BBC, this contempt also extends to journalists. He said Gaddafi has the rather unnerving habit of breaking wind loudly during interviews.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Sep 2009 22:49

Gerard, interesting.

Its the ISI, they already found Somali pirates using POF bullets. Intelligence reports had come in that Pak armywallah's were training some pirates. Somalia has been a D company base for years. Prior to 2001 India had clear intelligence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2009 00:06

Nightwatch comments on the action.24/9/09

India-Pakistan-Jammu and Kashmir State: Four Indian soldiers and four Muslim militants died in Kashmir gun battles 23 September. The Army Chief of Staff, General Deepak Kapoor, blamed Pakistan for violating a six year-old ceasefire by attempting to help Kashmir militants infiltrate the Line of Control before the winter sets in and prevents infiltration, Reuters reported. Four soldiers were wounded. "Fierce encounters are still going on. We are sure these militants have recently infiltrated from PoK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir)," an Indian Army spokesman said.

Clashes resulting from thwarted infiltration attempts from Pakistan are normal at this season. What is noteworthy is that the election of civilian government in Islamabad has made no difference in the seasonal surge along the Line of Control.

Under President General Musharraf, militant and terrorist infiltration into Indian Kashmir never stopped. The Zardari-Gilani government promised to be different, but is showing that it has no control of Pakistan’s security agencies, its intelligence agencies and its Army. Civilian government in Islamabad is a sham as long as the Army and intelligence service can defy the direct orders of the elected government, assuming such orders were actually issued and not just promised.

The continuing seasonal infiltration along the Line of Control into Indian Kashmir proves that Pakistan does not operate under rule of law, except where and when the Army approves. It is not a modern government. Plus, whoever really rules Pakistan continues to use terror as an instrument of state power against India and against the US in Afghanistan.

The NW working hypothesis is that those who actually make executive decisions about national security in Pakistan have had enough of US pressure tactics. They have no intention of mounting an anti-terror campaign using ground forces in Waziristan or doing anything more than has already been done to comply with or support US requirements for fighting terrorists. In this, they are acting in the interests of Pakistan, China’s proxy in the struggle with India for dominance in Asia.

Manmeet · Post by **Manmeet** » 26 Sep 2009 07:58

What is going on here?
J&K to get some azaadi? Are they going crazy?
Is UPA govt going mad?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/J-amp-K-m ... 58127.aspx

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 26 Sep 2009 08:26

Manmeet wrote:What is going on here?
J&K to get some azaadi? Are they going crazy?
Is UPA govt going mad?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/J-amp-K-m ... 58127.aspx

Well ... if this is true, MMS looks in line for a Nobel Prize ... Imagine that ... an Indian getting the Nobel Peace prize ... how exciting !!!!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Sep 2009 08:31

Its all talk as Kangress wont committ suicide . Nothing of this sort can happen if it require Constituional amendment. Hoorirats will die their natural death with time.

Manmeet · Post by **Manmeet** » 26 Sep 2009 10:27

Kangress was at the core of porkistan creation in 1947 !
Why it can't happen again?

If porkistan was not created in 1947, can you imagine gandhi family or kangress ever going to rule India?
Who could then rule: it could be muslim league as in Undivided India ML could give nehru a hard time. How could he see this?
We must understand that Kangress ruling policies are created with sole aim in mind: 'stick to power, no matter where you have to compromise' keeping gandhi family in center.
Kangress will secure in 2 ways:

1. It will utmost keep muslims and lower cast vote bank in its bag. They know it very well if they keep them in their bag, they will always be in power scene in Delhi.
2. Once muslims become in majority in some areas and where they are capable of managing political affairs on their own, kangress want to disown them.

This policy ensures kangress goons always stick to power.

If this autonomy bill goes through in the parliament, you will know this will be the first step, J&K slipping away from India..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 26 Sep 2009 10:40

I don't know but everytime Kangress is written, I think of Kangaroos.

Maybe because too many ride the Mother Kangaroos pocket and jump out to make statements that are music to the Mother Kangaroo's ears!

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 26 Sep 2009 11:04

Manmeet wrote:What is going on here?
J&K to get some azaadi? Are they going crazy?
Is UPA govt going mad?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/J-amp-K-m ... 58127.aspx

Fine then, let each of ask for "azadi" for our respective state too. Wait we must kill some minorities, force millions of them out of our state and then ask for "azadi". Can anybody supply us a few AK's?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Sep 2009 20:56

Avinash R wrote:Fine then, let each of ask for "azadi" for our respective state too. Wait we must kill some minorities, force millions of them out of our state and then ask for "azadi". Can anybody supply us a few AK's?

A bharatiya cannot do any such thing because it eventually hurts the Bharatiya-cause. That is seen as the weakness by certain elements within and without the nation.

Since one cannot advise kicking JK terrorists out of our nation, the only solution left is to offer them employment across India so they can see (and sometimes hurt) what India really stands for and hopefully dissolve in its history.

Dhimmi times demand dhimmi ideas

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Sep 2009 21:13

People refuse to see things coming. We have speculated before, that the Irish Good Friday Agreement about Noirthern Ireland type model is being thought about J&K. It will be an attempt by the Anglo-Saxon, to foist a model with typical shortsightedness on a place and situation that is not comparable. It is a question of religious expansionism that covers also a lot of vested feudal interests.

There will be no agreement though. The TSPA and its backers are just too greedy. In their greed they will jeopardize the most favourable rashtryia attitude from India that they can ever have towards their expansion plans.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Sep 2009 10:08

If more autonomy is to be given by the GOI, it will most likely be cosmetic. Or this could be a straw in the wind to test the drift.

India continues to be seized with the Partition; and as it attempts to fade, it is resurrected by authors, film makers and their ilk – almost with the same fervour as the Jews remember the Holocaust.

Pakistan’s activities in Kashmir and its hand in fomenting terror in India assist in bolstering the Indian distaste for Pakistan, no matter how many do gooders light candles at Wagah or have their social junkets in each other’s country in the guise of seminars to foster friendship. Therefore, to believe that any Govt of India can encourage loosening its grip without serious repercussions politically and even law and order, would be naive a thought.

To amplify, Kashmir is the bone of contention. Pakistan believes it is theirs because of religion commonality, while India is firm on the accession bolstered by her secular credentials. Even on the issue of religion. India is on a strong wicket since it has the second largest Nation Moslem population in the world, though some state that it has slipped to the third spot.

To lose Kashmir, through ill conceived high flaunting idealism (the misplaced idealism anyway from the time Ceasefire was allowed when the IA was on the winning streak is what has led to this disastrous situation) would be lead to political oblivion of any party. And anyway, UPA is a Coaltiion and hence the PM and the UPA handlers will not be able to have a straight run!

It would be a body blow to the concept of secularism and the raison d’être for India’s polity. Interestingly, it is the Congress that claims to be architect for India’s independence and its post independence structure based on secularism etc. Therefore, to play ball with Pakistan and separatists and others by loosening the federal structure of India to a greater extent than present in Kashmir would create a huge backlash.

Yet, could there be a ‘foreign hand’ nudging the UPA? And can it be just merely a placebo for the foreign hand since it would be suicidal for the Congress to acquiesce to give more autonomy, when they themselves have slowly curbed the unbridled freewheeling that was there earlier?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Sep 2009 11:04

RayC:

Great points. But I am more pessimistic than you, especially since we have a pliant MMS as CEO. US is now firmly in the game, and they want India to give something to TSP on Kashmir to preserve its H&D. For me, 2 conditions have to be sacrosanct: 1) LoC has to the international border, and 2) TSP should have no say, none whatsover in the affairs of our side of the LoC. If these 2 conditions are met, then any token gestures to assuage TSP/APHC H&D is fine with me. I don't think India has any chance, none whatsoever, to take back POK. But my gut feeling is that MMS wants to go beyond LoC = IB, namely, Mush's proposal on joint soverignty. This is as good as giving up entire Kashmir to TSP.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 27 Sep 2009 12:34

Agreeing for anything 'joint' with TSP in J&K affairs is a sell out. Period.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Sep 2009 18:31

Why is the assumption that it would be suicidal for any party to give up J&K to TSP in one way or another?

At the current moment, the popular media - including the most impact -TV, has prepared the grounds well by foisting the idea and increasing the tolerance level towards the idea of compromises. A 26/11 at Mumbai did not have any effect apparently on what turned out to be electoral expression of the popular will.

Secularism of the French variety - what I term non-compromising and "uniformly intolerant" secularism, would have made it suicidal. In India, the secularism that has been carefully nurtured, is a compromising and "selectively intolerant" secularism at best, and basically an ideological vacuum that is designed to help personality cults and dynastic pretenses to become sole "national unifiers" at the worst.

The whole rashtryia propaganda machinery, including the media, is steeped in this self-delusion. But this elite's repeated bartering mentality, by which the elite has time and again bartered away populations and regions to maintain their hold on political power has been seen for centuries. Including, the shenanigans of the Partition.

The elite of India has always managed to promote and use social fractures in identity to come to understanding with anti-Indian forces. In this on the one hand they have carefully emasculated the common Indian both militarily and ideologically. The commons have not been allowed to retain any military power to resist the coercive forces at the hands of the rashtryia machine in continuation with British colonial policy. The ideological structures that had allowed the commons to fight back against "invaders" have been deliberately deconstructed and falsified so that no political base independent of personality cults and dynasties can challenge the regime.

On the other hand they have had to rely in external forces for their own power because of this very self-goal of weakening the indigenous forces. They think nothing of bartering away regions or populations. The blood and tears and suffering of commons means nothing for this elite. Have you never felt the urge to soundly slap the rosy cheeks of those who gave wonderful "historical" speeches at attaining "independence" where the shame, trauma, agony of millions caught in the Partition violence is reduced to a few sentences that compare it to necessary labour-pains of a feminized "nation"?

If even after that, the owner of those pair of rosy cheeks maintained himself in a flaunting of very nearly royal power for almost 17 years - and there was no "suicide", why should it be a suicide now?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Sep 2009 23:11

The simple equation India is dealing with is that TSP is demanding more than LoC == IB in return for continuation of the current lull in terror (the pitful state India is in for not extracting a price from TSP). Add on the white boys support to TSP and KMs, the odds are stacked against India. And if this is not enough, there is significant section of India's elite lead by MMS who have no issue going beyond LoC == IB. And the final nail on India's coffin is that unlike average Abduls in TSP who bristle with anger at the mere mention of Kashmir, average Ram in India care two hoots, nor even understand what Kashmir means to India as a nation. So wherefrom do the optimists get their confidence from that no Indian govt can survive by going beyond LoC == IB? To make it palatable to India, the sell out (joint soverignty) will be couched in some complicated legal mumbo jumbo langauge like the nuke deal. Add on to that more membersships to toothless orgs like G20, 'colaition of democracies', perhaps joint nobel prize for zardari/MMS, the sell out can be morphed and sold as victory to the gullible billion eunuchs (remember slum dog millionarie Oscars?).

Manmeet · Post by **Manmeet** » 28 Sep 2009 07:31

CRamS wrote:The simple equation India is dealing with is that TSP is demanding more than LoC == IB in return for continuation of the current lull in terror (the pitful state India is in for not extracting a price from TSP). Add on the white boys support to TSP and KMs, the odds are stacked against India. And if this is not enough, there is significant section of India's elite lead by MMS who have no issue going beyond LoC == IB. And the final nail on India's coffin is that unlike average Abduls in TSP who bristle with anger at the mere mention of Kashmir, average Ram in India care two hoots, nor even understand what Kashmir means to India as a nation. So wherefrom do the optimists get their confidence from that no Indian govt can survive by going beyond LoC == IB? To make it palatable to India, the sell out (joint soverignty) will be couched in some complicated legal mumbo jumbo langauge like the nuke deal. Add on to that more membersships to toothless orgs like G20, 'colaition of democracies', perhaps joint nobel prize for zardari/MMS, the sell out can be morphed and sold as victory to the gullible billion eunuchs (remember slum dog millionarie Oscars?).

Totally agree with you. I don't see any reason why MMS can't go beyond LOC=IB? Let alone getting back POK?
Electoral gains by congress in the aftermath of mumbai carnage was a turning point in its policy making.
I do need to get some answers on these points though:

1. Can article 356 be diluted before the consensus or debate in parliament?
2. Will opposition (BJP) let that happen (at the time when it is also having biggest numbers since independence in J&K assembly)?
3. It is a proposal only. Will it attract separatist pests on the table at all? (Though we shouldn't give the damn about it....)
4. More autonomous councils be created ( will it be inline with Ladakh autonomous council?)
5. Will Ladakh agree to it? I am pretty sure Ladakhis will revolt before people in Jammu do.
6. Will govt's this proposal just a revert back to the pre-1987 situation when qazi nissar wanted to make J&K an islamic state and sown the seeds of current trouble?

If this could be it then why the hell India gone through all this trouble at the first place?
To me congress has no f***n idea as to what to do in J&K? they are absolutely clue less....
There is no so called 'int pressure' this is all bull

There sole policy is how to secure muslim vote bank IMHO.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 28 Sep 2009 07:43

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Sep 2009 08:33

If any political party gives up on J&K, it would tantamount to another Partition and another example of how the country that professes and swears by secularism bows to the minority view once again!! The very thought would cause a groundswell. Axiomatically, it would be of serious concern and consternation to the majority of the Indian population; more so, for the Indian Muslims since they will be more insecure and worried that they would have to bear the brunt of the backlash of the popular indignation. Indians of all political persuasions would find such an action of giving up J&K as a sheer sell out. And thus, such a sell out will be suicidal for any political party

Even if a straw poll was taken on this forum, one wonders if anyone would willingly be ready to hand over J&K to Pakistan.

Indeed, if that had been the intention (to hand over J&K) to Pakistan, there were enough instances when it could have been done and many a life would not have to be sacrificed. Thus, the bottomline is that J&K just cannot be handed over to please Pakistan or the US – not even a part of it!

If there was tolerance to compromise, promoted by the ‘opinion makers’, be they the media or ‘intellectuals’, then there should have been no furore over the Sharm el Sheik document which tied MMS in knots when he tried to explain how the issue of terrorism could not be linked with carrying out dialogue of peace with Pakistan and which none bought. They did not even dare to tread the minefield of the Baluchistan faux pas! Not a single peep is heard of this infamous document! I don’t think the Indians are so gullible to fall hook, line and sinker to whatever they hear or see on the TV or what politicians say and nor should we dismiss them as mere yokels.

The analysis of the Mumabi electoral results will indicate that during the election the dates for Mumbai spanned a spate of holidays successively and, as is wont, the Mumbai people leave town for the ‘hills’ of Lonavla, Matheran etc. It is also a truism that the urbanite is least concerned about elections over their personal requirements. Thus the indignation did not spill over in the hustings. The All India results went in favour of the Congress, since no other party had a vibrant or policy based agenda and even if they did, they did not reach the people convincingly. The only contender for the Crown i.e. Advani, he hardly made a mark!

Social fractures are not unique to India. It is universal. None has to nurture it. It is evident in the human psychology and only requires a nudge. Even such a plebeian activity as gossip is but the resultant of social fractures; finding, at times, malicious outpouring.

Secularism, if viewed with a jaundiced eye, would indeed appear as an instrument to foist certain ideologies at the expense of other ideologies or even as a ploy to ensure certain dynasties are kept in power. However, as a concept it cannot be faulted given the violent and sectarian circumstances when India was partitioned. The Constituent Assembly had no other option, but to adopt secularism to keep some semblance of communal harmony.

One wonders what military power a commoner requires wherein he can resist the coercive forces at the hands of the Federal govt. It is only the Naxals who are of this view. This was exactly what the Naxalite supporters Varavar Rao (hopefully I got the name right) and one DeMello stated in “We the People” yesterday. If we are to have a freewheeling country, where the common man is to decide the affairs of the govt, why deprive them of not running India’s foreign policy or even the fiscal and economic policies? Can any State pander to all the views of every single citizen? So long as there is the human race on Earth, each single person will have a different perception on every issue under the sun. That is human psychology. Therefore, if one does not have his say, he will cry ‘coercion’! Therefore, these ideas of oppressive Federal machinery is but political grandiloquence of those deprived from assuming political power through the hustings and are aware of their inherent weakness and instead wish to usurp the State machinery through violent and undemocratic means and thereafter ensure their dictatorship and genuine coercion and not allowing the dissent that they enjoy now under a democratic setup!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Sep 2009 08:41

The average Indian has no idea of Arunachal Pradesh either.

They did not have any idea of Aksai Chin either.

But when China took that over and then invaded, India was furious. Women gave their gold for the defence effort and Indian women take their gold as a matter of honour and they don't part with it that easily!

And then the powerful PM, JLN, was humiliated and ridiculed and it started the rot in the Congress pristine position! It took time for it to fall since it was resurrected by IG and 1971, but fall it did!

Therefore, even if the average Indian is indifferent about J&K, they will hardly be ready to lose it to Pakistan.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Sep 2009 08:50

RayC:

I will grant MMS this much. He is not about to sign a surrender document giving up Kashmir tomorrow. Please read what I said. He is going to agree to joint soverignty (in line with his 'South Asia' vision) and this will be couched in some complicated lingo, along with toothless praises for India by USA. So what I am refering to is a slow motion sell out. If you go by past actions of MMS, this is very much plausible.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Sep 2009 08:57

RayC wrote:The average Indian has no idea of Arunachal Pradesh either.

They did not have any idea of Aksai Chin either.

But when China took that over and then invaded, India was furious.

Strategic and geopolitic knowledge is weak even among the elite inside India. Once they understand the stratgic location of India and its periphery they open their eyes and will support Indian action in Aksai Chin and Arunachal. This disconnect with the local knowledge and geopolitics in the world is the serious weakness of the educated Indians.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Sep 2009 09:37

CRamS wrote:RayC:

I will grant MMS this much. He is not about to sign a surrender document giving up Kashmir tomorrow. Please read what I said. He is going to agree to joint soverignty (in line with his 'South Asia' vision) and this will be couched in some complicated lingo, along with toothless praises for India by USA. So what I am refering to is a slow motion sell out. If you go by past actions of MMS, this is very much plausible.

You think that is feasible?

Here is an interesting take on the history. Take it for what it is worth.
Background

Also Jagmohan's My Frozen Trubulence speaks of the plan for Confederation.
My Frozen Turbulence

But none bought it!

Therefore, slow or fast, none will accept the slow strangulation.

I don't think Indians are that unaware as to not understand the consequences.

The military will be first one to protest as they did when MMS mooted the issue of Siachen talks and demilitarisation!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 28 Sep 2009 18:46

RayC saar, please comment about this article Re deaths of Maj Suri and Naik Khushal Singh:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hawk Eye
Who killed Major Suri?
http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=63655

September 25, 2009

If the Chief of the Army Staff, the Army Commander Northern Command, the Srinagar Corps Commander and the General Officer Commanding Kilo Force can sleep comfortably after the Baniyari encounter in north Kashmir - the nation has reason to be worried.

The encounter is a perfect example of how not to conduct an operation. And if this is the standard operating procedure now, the army needs to re-look its training and tactics. A refresher course is essential if we want our young officers and jawans safe and the morale of the army high. There needs to be accountability in the army - at all levels.

Who is responsible for the deaths of Major Suresh Suri and Naik Khushal Singh? The two terrorists holed up in the house in Baniyari village or poor planning and higher management of operations. The army owes Major Suri's young widow and Singh's family an explanation.

Let's take a look at the facts of the case. The army had "hard intelligence'' about two hardcore terrorists hiding in a house in the Baniyari village. An operation was mounted. The 13th Battalion of Rashtriya Rifles sent out a team. Major Suresh Suri of 6 Kumaon, a veteran of Counter Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School, Vairangte, his buddy Naik Khushal Singh and the team surrounded the house.

There is a track leading to the house in the village near the picturesque Wular lake. Another team of soldiers went by boat. The house was surrounded. To the best of their ability the army tried to ensure the terrorists do not escape. It was established there were no "innocent civilians" in the house.

The standard operating procedure, according to veteran soldiers is, once the house is surrounded - the army draws fire to know a) the number of terrorists and b) the general area where the fire is coming from. An assessment is made about the next move. To avoid loss of trained manpower (crores are spent training officers and soldiers) - the army "brings down" the house. Sources say - the officer sought permission to do the same. It was denied.

He was ordered to enter the house and eliminate the terrorists. The army needs to find out (and in right earnest) who insisted that the Major and his team enter the house. Major Suri and his buddy Naik Singh cleared the ground floor and climbed to the first floor of the house. They saw a depression on the wooden floor. As soon as Major Suri lobbed a grenade inside, the two terrorists opened fire. Both Major Suri and buddy were grievously injured.

Suri and his buddy, no doubt, were brave soldiers. They walked into the house - not knowing its topography. They cleared the entire ground floor. And then they moved up to the first floor. The terrorists were trapped and suddenly opened fire from their hide out inside the house. According to sources, the terrorists then came out of their hideout and opened fire at the army party waiting downstairs - two Majors and four more jawans were injured. The injured soldiers made a tactical retreat.

The terrorists clearly had the edge. They not only had pushed the army out but also gained access to extra weapons and held on to the bodies of the martyred soldiers. They managed to hold on for 25 hours.

The army had to call in the special forces. Sources say, the para commandoes once again requested permission to "bring down the house". Again the army needs to inquire who turned down that request and why. The para commandoes went in and drew in heavy fire. Ultimately the two terrorists were killed. But at what cost.

Two good for nothing pieces of scum - Moosa and Pasha of Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashkar-e-Taiba - were eliminated. They were dreaded terrorists - operating in the area for eight years. But the world's fourth largest army - best trained in counter insurgency operations paid an extremely heavy price in neutralizing the threat. It took them 25 hours to do so. Could this have been done in two hours and with 'no own casualty'?

There is no doubt there are good days and bad days in counter-terrorist operations. But risking lives of soldiers is an unacceptably high price to pay. The commanders must never forget that. Soldiers are a national asset. The army must learn to respect them - before expecting the country to do the same.

Infantry soldiers and officers are not specialists in clearing houses. National Security Guard (NSG) commandoes receive specialized training for it. Lobbing stun grenades, using tear gas shells, mirrors to look and using specialized moves to enter as a team. This is a task best left to them - or raise special units to do it in J&K. Statistics show house, hut and dhok (kachcha structures in mountains) clearance is one of the biggest reasons of casualty of troops in J&K.

The infantry jawan can surround the house, draw fire and use that opportunity to isolate the terrorist, prevent him from escaping and bringing down the house. The army and the state have enough funds to rebuild the house and better ones at that. Anyways rebuilding a house is much cheaper than losing a trained resource - a soldier.

So can Major Suri's Commanding Officer and the Sector Commander look at his young widow in the eye and explain there was no way out of that situation. That there was no alternative to Major Suri and Naik Singh laying down their lives and 2 more officers and 4 more jawans getting injured (one in the lower back) to kill only two terrorists.

Where was the Commanding Officer? Where was the sector commander? Were they there to guide the youngsters? Or were the commanders safe in the sector headquarters protected by more than a company of soldiers - only willing to venture out when the General Officer Commanding of the Kilo Force and the media reached in large numbers?

I have spoken to several serving and retired officers who have been in the thick of things - they are equally shocked by the manner in which this operation was conducted. Nobody is saying that Major Suri was not brave. He was a daredevil! He is a hero to be cherished - his bravery is immense.

But he did not have to die to prove he was brave. He was a veteran of the CIJW, Vairangte. He was an instructor. He should have lived to guide future generations of soldiers.

His superior officers should have realized the terrorists could have been eliminated by other means. Bravery is not laying down your life for the nation. Bravery is making the enemy lay down his life for his nation. NEVER FORGET THAT!

Let every commanding officer, brigade commander, division commander and Corps commander take a pledge he will not let a soldier die for personal glory and promotion. It is not worth it. Never ever forget the oath taken at the `antim pag' at Chetwode building.

The safety honour and welfare of your country
come first always and every time.
The honour welfare and comfort of the men
you command come next.
Your own ease comfort and safety
come last always and every time

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Sep 2009 19:21

Pranav,

I wanted to comment on this news earlier when it was posted I think on the IA Discussion thread, but gave it the go by since I am not aware of the facts.

I don’t give much credence to Gaurav Sawant’s reporting. He tends to sensationalise. And is highly melodramatic! When he starts talking, I have to rush to the Volume Control! Watch him on Headlines Today! Last word in everything and as if he was a witness to the fact and everyone else is a damned fool!

Analyse this start of his report:
If the Chief of the Army Staff, the Army Commander Northern Command, the Srinagar Corps Commander and the General Officer Commanding Kilo Force can sleep comfortably after the Baniyari encounter in north Kashmir - the nation has reason to be worried.

I could go further in melodramatics and wonder if Sonia Gandhi, MMS, Advani are also sleeping comfortably to spice up the issue. Or even if Obama is sleeping comfortably since the US is well aware who the Merchants of Death are.

One does not ask for permission from the COAS, GOC in C Northern Command or even the CO when conducting a Cordon and Search as to what to do next. If it were so, then they would only be bogged down in conducting operations that are the purview of the Commander of the C&S. There is no ‘higher management’ of a C&S. Am I to understand that Gaurav Sawant is of the opinion that the junior and middle level officers are so badly trained that they require being spoonfed by the COAS and flag rank officers for every move?

If indeed he has the proof that it was a botched up ops because of higher management, let him spell out in exact terms and name the officers so responsible.

He wishes all to feel that he is in the know since he is a Brigadier’s son. But then the Brigadier was but in the Education Corps and best equipped to cover the Republic Day commentary!

It is so stupid of him to state that ''Infantry soldiers and officers are not specialists in clearing houses''! Who has been doing so this far? SF and Gaurav Sawant? Has this cove visited CIJW School? Was it for the SF? I am not SF, but how come I was trained there? How come even the US Army used these facilities and continue to do so?

His article is good for India Today and that is how he get the bread and butter on his table. Good for him!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Sep 2009 19:24

The military will protest? But are we assuming that they can protest and overrule politically mandated and legislatively supported decisions from the GOI? Now thats a minefield!

"Secularism" per-se is not the issue. We compared the French version and said that it would have been suicidal in that version of "secularism". Let us not try to generalize what passes for secularism in India as the only characterization of "secularism".

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Sep 2009 19:36

brihaspati wrote:The military will protest? But are we assuming that they can protest and overrule politically mandated and legislatively supported decisions from the GOI? Now thats a minefield!

"Secularism" per-se is not the issue. We compared the French version and said that it would have been suicidal in that version of "secularism". Let us not try to generalize what passes for secularism in India as the only characterization of "secularism".

I hope you are aware of the Siachen issue and demilitarisation suggested after the Cuba NAM.

Has it happened? If not, why not? There was MMS and his political will.

Politically mandated? BJP will accept? Let us not overreach!

Let us be frank. The world has changed. The Army is a part of that world. They would be rather aggrieved to believe that they were used as pawns to die in vain! Strong feelings I would say in a very PC way!

An example where the Army puts it foot down. Chidambaram wanted the Army to take on the Maoists. The Army put its foot down. Would not have happened in what you all revile, the BritIndian ethos! We have graduated!

French secularism is no example to superimpose on should I say, Vedic and Indic secularism. We are more tolerant, but also sharp! We did not compare the French secularism, you did!

It does pain that you find it incorrect for the Army brass to protest to the PM of incorrect military decisions for political brownies. Is the lives of the military that cheap and expendable for short time political gains?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Sep 2009 23:03

Once the terrorists location has been determined, they are asked to come out. If they don't, then explosives are laid to demolish the building.

Dear Ray,

Why must explosives be 'laid' to destroy a house? Cant a 84 mm rocket be used?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Sep 2009 01:10

On Dashami, Jammu housewife kills jihadi with axe

JAMMU: As the country bid farewell to goddess Durga, the demon-slayer, on Dashami and witnessed the evil king Ravana being vanquished on Dussehra, a humble Muslim woman in a remote Jammu village slew a dreaded Lashkar terrorist single-handedly.

Exhibiting astonishing, raw courage, Rashida Begum took on the two terrorists who had barged into her home late Sunday night in Thana Mandi village in Rajouri district. The woman, in her early forties, grabbed an axe and swung it wildly, killing one of the armed terrorists and injuring the other. Seeing his partner meet a bloody end, the other terrorist fled in sheer dread.

A Rajouri-based police officer said the two terrorists of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based group that carried out the 26/11 Mumbai attacks, had entered Noor Ahmad's home around 9pm with the intention of holding the family hostage.
...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Sep 2009 01:18

Cross Posted
Seek peaceful solution to Kashmir issue: China tells India, Pak

BEIJING: China on Monday asked India and Pakistan to seek a solution to the Kashmir issue through peaceful and friendly consultations and offered to play a "constructive role" in resolving the "bilateral issue".

As a friendly country, China would also be happy to see progress in the peace process between India and Pakistan, said Hu Zhengyue, Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs, in charge of the Asian region.

"Kashmir is an issue that has been longstanding left from history. This issue touches the bilateral relations between the relevant countries," he told a group of visiting foreign journalists here.

As China is a friendly neighbour of both countries, it hopes to see that the two sides "will seek a solution through peaceful and friendly consultations", Hu said when asked by a Pakistani journalist if China was prepared to play some role in the resolution of the issue.

While he stressed that Kashmir was a bilateral issue, he stopped short of ruling out the possibility of mediation.

"As a friend China will be happy to see such progress (in the peace process) and we will be happy if we can play a constructive role in the resolving of the issue (Kashmir), but after all it is a bilateral issue," he said.

He said that China hoped the peace process between India and Pakistan "will continue to go smoothly".