So you guys did change the specs. That answers one of my questions. I saw the specs a while ago.

Unless you saw it like - five years ago..

lol.. maybe. I clearly remember seeing the 29,400lbf since it was higher than the MKK's engine.

And I see there is no mention of tail radar in the updated page. George just said the Bars can engage only 4, wiki says that too with the Tikhomirov website as reference. The BR's page says it can engage 8. Any inside info? Or am I missing something?

Vayusena tripod and Paul's pages (overscan) too say can engage 4 simultaneously ; The ACIG page states "and can track 20 targets, while engaging 8".

These Jingos na..

Don't know who owns vayu tripod, but ACIG generally uses other references. They often take their info from BR.

Krish NIIP Tikhomirov says '4' here

BARS

Thanks for the exact Tikhomirov page negi. I saw the "4" targets in wiki with a reference to the main Tikhomirov page.

BTW, whats with the BR MKI page showing range on normal load of 5270kg ~ 3000km for the K -



OEM says 3000km max range with phull internal phuel of 9600kg. Perhaps the MKI does a bit more (iirc an ACIG discussion putting it @ about 3400km with 10 tons fuel). In either case, the above zimbly naat passable wonlee. Btw, another interesting thing to note is that the MKI is supposed to be capable of EFTs as per the source I posted earlier.

To Krish:


Splitting hair a bit aren't we? A 100 lbs is less than 50kgs.



Think about that source - it shows the MKI and the MKK weigh the same, that's despite carrying the TVC + Canards for the MKI. Who says composites don't make difference? 6% by weight on an 18 ton frame is quite a bit (1000kg approx). Even if they get gains by 40%, it'd still slice the weight by 400kg. The extra strengthening for Brahmos comes later - perhaps the composite structure will also increase.

CM.

lol.. no. You said KN > Kgf marginally, IIRC. But it was the other way around.


Each Al-31f weighs 1.6 tonnes! So 2 engines weight around 3.2 tonnes. Avionics, radar, Hydraulics, cockpit, TVC weighs around.. say.. another 2 tonnes.
So 18400-5200= 13200
13200 X.06 = 792
792 X .4 = 317 kgs weight saving.

I think the MKI's TVC alone will weigh that much. MKI most probably is heavier than MKK.
I heard MKK's tail section is different. So it may put on some weight there.

BTW, this page of Milavia does not quote Su-30mkk's weight: http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-27/s ... ations.htm
Even the 18400 is an educated guess I think, since generally Russians don't release empty weights.
Also the BR's page does not say anything about composites. The vayusena tripod page(a fan site?) says it's a rumor.

What I meant was that 130kN will provide more thrust than 13000kgf. Thought the remaining part of the post should have clarified that, still should've been more clear i s'pose.


Look at in terms of where the MKI is different from the MKK (at least cursorily) - canards, TVC, HUMS, OBOGS?. THese would add weight. At the same time advanced avionics components such as LCDs, processors and analog replacements should save weight, plus the addition of composites.

There is little to doubt that composites have been used in the MKI - ithink production images show this, esp along the fins and on the fuselage. Moreover there are other sources apart from the Vayu site:
.
http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu27_2.html

More clearly, from ACIG and masterspy Harry:


http://www.acig.org/exclusives/aero/acig_aero05_su30.htm
Also, look up the article on BRD 11 - it was replacing OEM parts with composite panels and skins on the IAF BAAZ; with so much experience in working with the LCA composite structures, it would be strange if the MKI did not see good use of composite structures. IIRC.

CM

There will be some weight savings there, but mostly only around 50-100 kgs. The computers/processors required to run the lcds, and the lcds themselves add weight too. Apart from that, I vaguely remember seeing some dials in the MKI cockpit... maybe its backup if the LCD/computer breaks down or dials not covered by the LCDs.


Nice! It does makes sense of using composites in future since the Org has experience dealing with composites in the LCA program, but it would be nice if the person who wrote that (harry?) could say where he got that 6% from. Did he get it from the vayu-tripod's site? There are no mention of composites(let alone a fig of 6%) in any official site ( http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/milita ... mk/history or http://www.irkut.com/en/services/production/SU30MK ) , even BR doesn't mention a word about composites. So how come it's 6%? Maybe they were referring to metal alloys since they can also technically be called composites, but there won't be much weight reduction. And the vector site says that for Su-35, not the MKI.

Russia Now: Interview with Mikhail Simonov - the inventor of the Sukhoi jet fighters

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/ru ... rs.html#at


Must read ....

Was it written by Harry? Yes - sez so on the website. WHere did he get his information from? Dunno - but I hear masterspy's have their ways Irrespective of what is written on SU.org or Irkut; and you must have noticed that they are very generic in their explanations - they hardly make reference to the structural strengthening or the increased fuel on the MKI (doesn't mean its not the case). That composites are used is beyond doubt - look at factory images if you can find them, the grey areas on the airframe are all composite.

BTW, the vectorsite link mentions the SU-35 as something the MKI derived a LOT from; there is little to doubt that. Iirc the 35 at the time was a v.similar triplane layout only with 14 ton engines and without TVC. The MKI combined the 35 design with 37's TVC (only bettered it).

Another way of looking at this is that the SU-30 variant (Su-27pu?) was about 1100kg heavier than the air superiority Su-27. THat made it @ around 17700kg. The MKI added canards, TVC, etc to get to 18400kg. Same as the Su-35. The MKK could be lighter @ 17700-18000kg.

CM.

sounds like the more we exercise, we would one day see the JSFs/ raptors fighting with our Rambas and future Trishas.

Nah.. grey stuff doesn't necessarily mean composites, it could mean grey paint. For some reason grey is sometimes used as a first coat of paint in manufacturing. In any case, I do hope the rumor is true since Chinese are spreading their own rumors... I find rumors of composites on MKK in wiki.

It's better in avionics, but obviously it's not better than 35/37 in twr due to low powered engines.


I do hope the composites bridges the gap in weight since MKI being geared towards Air superiority wont look good with less twr.


Nice!

Hmmm....so I post the EXACT reference for co-cured co-bonded fins and co-bonded center fuselage and people still use riff raff links??? Nice....

Rumors? Damn - I've already provided 2 excellent links apart from what George J has posted! And this is apart from the Vayusena one that you call fansite. Btw, it was not in harry to write crap, some of the best stuff came from him incldng. the excellent radiance of the tejas.

And thats despite the LCA, and what BRD #11 did for the fulcrum! Amazing. Btw, why would they paint only a few panels grey when the rest of the a/c is in yellow primer - camo?

Anyway, I guess its your choice to be skeptical in the face of the obvious.

George, you did not provide the link (is it Fomin?) and thats why I didn't mention it earlier. Or is it MSM?

CM.

lol.. yeah. I'm a bit skeptical after finding out about the engines. I'm just being cautious.
What george posted, it did say all metal structures, so like I said before it could very well be metal alloys since they can be technically called composites. I did recall reading about aluminum and titanium alloys, and some alloys especially titanium cannot be wielded. And also those methods are sturdier when compared to wielding.
Forgot about the grey part... the grey areas could be new panels just added and hence didn't get painted yellow?

Fomin(1998) really does not say much about the MKI because it was still in gestation at the time Fomin (1998) was written/translated, but Fomin is VERY VERY good on Su-27 development till that time. If you notice Vectorsite...they do not refer Fomin they use Jon Lake. The beauty of Fomin is that its written like a Soviet Era publication which means the he will tell you who is running a bureau every time he talks about it. It's sort of funny but you gotta do what you gotta do to get extensive access. This makes Fomin the ultimate source Su-27 development, that guy is frigging thorough. Even today...that books is a treasure trove...e.g RVV-AE development completion date/AL-31F development cycle.

The reference I posted comes from OEM. Now with the MKI the OEM is IAPO or...... HAL. Just because there is nothing on IAPO or Sukhoi does not mean that HAL cannot talk about it.

The credit goes to Shiv? or Jai S? or some other nice jingo who took pains to scan "The Plane" HAL in-house mag from AI07.



S.M Kapoor was ED Nasik at the time of publication.

I hear there is a new version of "the sukhoi story" by Yefim Gordon circa 2007 - any good? Wonder if I can get them from a local library. Will check to see what good stuff can be got.




Thanks; don't get any better than that.

CM.

Again the credit for it goes to Shiv or Jai S or whoever was kind enough to scan the article and post it on rapid share. And since we keep regressing back to MKK vs MKI here is another DIRECT quote from the same reference



How can you doubt ED Nasik?

This needs to be put in as a sticky, not that it will stop jingos from saying....just slap a canard and TVC and you got an MKI.

Flanker vs Eagle ( for the record via Ken )

http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/flanker_combat.htm

Sukhoi jets in NE skies from next week

TEZPUR: Sukhoi fighter jets will start flying in the skies of the northeastern region from next
week.

According to defence officials, around six aircraft of the warplane's MKI variant have reached Tezpur air base in Assam a few days ago and a full complement of the warplanes is expected to arrive by the year end.

Flight training and operational sorties of the aircraft are likely to begin early next week and preparations were on in this regard, they said, adding that besides Tezpur, a full squadron of Sukhoi fighter jets would also be deployed at Chabua base in eastern Assam subsequently.

The IAF was also contemplating to deploy another squadron at Bagdogra air base in West Bengal, the officials said.

The Su-30s had operated from Tezpur air base when they were formally inducted in the base on June 15. Since then, the air base which has been upgraded to house the jets was also opened for civil aviation.

Four Su30s had landed at the base on June 12 for a symbolic induction and a fighter aircraft operated from the airbase after a gap of more than a year since MIG fighters were moved out of it, the officials said.

Having aerial refueling capability, the Su30 MKI multi-role combat jets have a combat radius of 1,500 km.

The MKI variant of the warplane which was inducted into the IAF in 2002 are said to have an impeccable safety record. The IAF already has three squadrons of Su-30 MKIs at Lohegaon and Bareilly.

only three sqd.?

The IAF already has three squadrons of Su-30 MKIs at Lohegaon and Bareilly.

Samtel Cockpit Displays for Sukhoi-30MKI
Business Standard

Lifting-Off > http://www.airfighters.com/photo/42346/ ... ker/SB050/
^^ This shot is the earlier frame & here's the next split second shot.