India-US News and Discussion

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 05 Dec 2009 20:11

Since S. Ayyadurai's story was posted here, here is the retort from Nature... Need to log in to Nature to read, so posting full.

Shiva Ayyadurai in CSIR ---- Vinod Scaria

I think it is now time to break the silence, and come out with the real facts on Shiva Ayyadurai and my personal experiences with him. I am not particularly amused by the one-sided story he has managed to publish in Nature India. Given the personality of this person, I cannot expect anything else.

I have met Shiva on multiple occasions in IGIB and in CSIR as the person heading CSIR Tech Programme, with some of my colleagues.

From day one, Shiva seemed to have no special interest in doing anything through CSIR Tech, but had always been trying to say it would be a really roundabout way to do it through CSIR Tech. Initially I found this quite funny (as he was the very person who was supposed to bring things straight !!), till we met him in CSIR office.

We had a prior appointment fixed with him, and were in office in time, but Shiva was never to be found. After waiting for almost half an hour, we rang him up. His response was rude, and instead of apologizing on the issue feigned ignorance on the entire appointment. He turned up later in the day, almost after a couple of hours and took us to his office. Even during this entire meeting, he had been constantly irritating us by talking on the phone, and he abruptly called off the meeting saying he had a call from his wife (speaks in volumes of professionalism and business etiquette).

In office he unveiled his entire gameplan, where he said he wanted almost 15% or more of stakes of any startup company as the person who brought in the business, and also offered us to start it outside CSIR -Tech through his Chennai based Millenium Productions, who would manage the entire operations underground. We just freaked out, as in our entire tenure in CSIR, both myself nor my colleague have come across an individual, occupying a senior position who had the guts or intention to do this in a government office (speaks lot of the ethics he carries). He was so bombastic about his skills in running companies and he was competent to run the company. We felt this was a complete dereliction of duty as the head CSIR-Tech and also informed appropriate officials on this.

A few weeks later, he called up and asked about our opinion on his proposal which we blankly refused to honour. He started blaberring about knowhow in running companies and how somebody could not argue with him on how to run companies (read his “openness” to dissenting voices). In the conversation, he even advised me to stop working for OSDD as he felt it was a scam (probably not knowing what is OSDD and what it stands for. For the un-initiated, you could see what MIT, Shiva’s home institute have to say about it here http://www.osdd.net/news-updates/untitledpost and http://www.osdd.net/news-updates/blogha ... illionaire). Even after several polite requests to stop straying into things that were not part of his business, he had no intention to let go, including blaberring baseless allegations that he raised in the Nature India article. I lost cool and had to tell him to just shut up and mind his business.

In my experience Shiva Ayyadurai is one of the worst kind of Individuals I have ever met. He was completely paranoid with his ideas and had no intention or patience to listen to others’ views (which is primarily the allegation he raises against the current DG). He is a fraud by choice and an insincere person who cares for just money and nothing else (I am not amused to find a Nature Biotechnology in his CV with the word “submitted” in small type and his claim to have written a commentary in Nature , while it is nothing but a Blog in nature India. see it for yourself here http://vashiva.com/vashiva/resume.html. The homepage even features a PDF with a complete nature.com logo). A casual search also reveals his so called “International Center for Integrative Systems” is nothing other than a website hosted at Chennai which also incidentally hosts Millenium Productions.

I am writing this with my complete name, and I am not afraid of telling the truth, and I know of many who have similar stories to say about this guy. I wish to see more people come up with their versions of their interaction with Shiva.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Dec 2009 20:21

I think Ashok Mitra is needlessly paranoid. However, such pessimistic articles will prevent a docile govt to do another S-e-S.

Co-sign.

A lot of Indians are in the same boat.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 06 Dec 2009 02:29

tejas wrote:Not a bad article. The attack on parliament and the bombing of the Indian embassy in Afganistan morphed into a "massive car bomb attack" on parliament but his heart is still in the right place.

If americans had heart, then they would hang their heads in shame every year on Hiroshima day. Instead, they don't regret about it. Some paid goofs demonstrate outside white-house for Iraq genocide. That's all. Thats where sanity ends.

Such articles are only printed to keep Indians deceived. American hearts beat for USA and not for non-white democracies. We Indians are very feeble. We are stupid enough to think that Americans think and care like common Indian do about humanity. We fall easily for "democracy" crap. USA doesn't work that way.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 06 Dec 2009 03:49

Sanjay M wrote:And yet the realities of India's dilapidated infrastructure and rampant poverty speak volumes about how well India "works". People in India seem to have different standards compared to the rest of the world on what it means to have a system that "works". There is a difference in values.

A country that talks grandly of itself as a "shooparpowerr" with such a large proportion of its population living like sub-Saharan Africa, makes me roll my eyes.

When USA began its journey, 250 years back when it was a beggar state. It took them many civil wars and bloody revolutions to reach where it is today.

India began its journey, 60 years back when it was a beggar and culturally destroyed state(by British). It is in civil war(Khalistan movement, Telangana movement) and bloody revolution(Naxalism) phase.

Today, it is in a phase when America used to be a wild place.

I am very impressed that still in such small period, India has caught up with world much faster. And, that's the uniqueness of Indian culture. They know how to adapt fast with time. Same uniqueness is present in Chinese people. They know how to "learn" and progress. Only such civilizations survive through centuries through time. Others fade.

Though the India of today hasn't realized its true character yet. It is still feeble and too much humble. It is lacking in confidence and assertiveness. Lets hope it regains its confidence with time.

Those who whine at GoI by sitting in foreign land and running life on dollar payrole, are depressed creatures. Typical ABCD syndrome.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Dec 2009 04:18

Americans developed their country without any foreign aid packages or charities. They developed themselves without any Kaangress-style welfare state. They have every right to feel proud of what they have built for themselves through their own labour and sweat.

India is going in for development centuries after America's climb. Our bickering masses couldn't even resist colonization, and have fallen to invader after invader. There's no reason to believe the future will be any different.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 06 Dec 2009 04:38

India was the largest economy of the world for much of the last millenium.At the time same when India declined, America rose . The predictions are India will over take america again in GDP in another 50 years. In India's civilizational lifespan, 200 years are nothing.But the Americans that is what all they have. So the situations for both countries are different.Its like comparing apples and oranges.People also need to remember that the US economic primacy comes not from any internal strengths but from its military and diplomatic strength through which it made its currency the de facto international currency.Take away the dollar status as international currency, the US economy will go down the drain in few years.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Dec 2009 04:59

Only pretentious people overuse the word "civilization", like some kind of name-dropping exercise.

For the lowly villager starving out in the countryside, what "civilization" do they feel a part of, that's worth bragging about? What has that "civilization" delivered to them?

Not much, as shown by the number of times that the masses have greeted invaders, or failed to show up to defend the reigning monarch.

The great "Hindu civilization" seems to have been steadily losing ground to any passing invader since its beginnings. Sounds like a "bubble boy civilization" that can't resist the slightest attack.

If raw birthrate is considered a bona fide defense, then even mosquitos have the right to call themselves a thriving "civilization".

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Dec 2009 05:26

Sanjay,

You have a valid point, however the US has benefited by having friendly neighbors to the north and south, and essentially the north American continent has two big oceans to the east & west which has kept out invaders for centuries.
This gave it stability.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Dec 2009 05:36

There are articles quoted here that US will insist on a India-Pakistan settlement. Well, India can equally well insist on a US-Iran rapprochment. After all, having a stable Iran that is not in Western or Israeli crosshairs is very much in India's interests.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 06 Dec 2009 05:54

Sanjay M wrote:Only pretentious people overuse the word "civilization", like some kind of name-dropping exercise.

For the lowly villager starving out in the countryside, what "civilization" do they feel a part of, that's worth bragging about? What has that "civilization" delivered to them?

Not much, as shown by the number of times that the masses have greeted invaders, or failed to show up to defend the reigning monarch.

The great "Hindu civilization" seems to have been steadily losing ground to any passing invader since its beginnings. Sounds like a "bubble boy civilization" that can't resist the slightest attack.

If raw birthrate is considered a bona fide defense, then even mosquitos have the right to call themselves a thriving "civilization".

These kind of rhetorical dead end arguments means zilch when it comes to evaluating the US and Indian advantages and disadvantages which is what this debate is about.To use the same dead end arguments, America has the highest number of poor people in developed countries.For those people, just like for the poor people in India, words like 'super power' has no meaning to them.Does that mean US is not super power just because the poor people there dont understan it ? And every major country was invaded by others in its course of history. The British were invaded by the romans, angels, vikings etc.The chinese were invaded by mongols , manchus, japanese etc. The americans were colonised by British followed by a civil war. The same is the case with the germans and other europeans, the japanese and koreans, the persians and turks, afghans and arabs etc. That is not the point. The point is in spite of all the invasions, India still protected civilizational ethos even while maintaining its economic superiority right upto 18th century.And it lost political independence on because it neglected its military component and never modernised its military tactics.

America is different. The european settlers made sure that the native americans died of diseases and occupied their lands from coast to coast making sure there is no regional rival to them. As i said, america's economic primacy comes from their military component and its succesfull strategy in making dollar as de facto currrency.It has always has been like that. But people mistake these military and diplomatic feats to america's 'internal strengths' who others need to emulate. If someone needs to emulate anything from the americans, it is their development of military technology (using emigrants, stealing etc) and using it to further their economic interests.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Dec 2009 05:56

Sanjay,

You have a valid point

Mort ji, i am afraid he does'nt and it's completely rooted in fallacy. Civilization does'nt exist in India's villages? C'mon, that was a meanie, and for one who has lived and loves living and has lots of relatives in villages, i have absolute objections to the statement. And i wish more ppl come out against this blanket type statement. Villagers don't starve like what Sanjay says, they form the bread bowl of India.

If India did'nt fight the Greeks, Muslims than how is it still the oldest surviving civilization on the planet when all and sundry have fallen? Red Indians, Mayans, Native South Americans, Persians, and Chinese to alien extreme marxism/ maoism 70 years ago. India is fighting Maoism but will win the battle for sure. No popular support really for them.

The great "Hindu civilization" seems to have been steadily losing ground to any passing invader since its beginnings.

Yes and one reason is 'sold out' self cynisists. Every civilization has lost ground and bit the dust. Roman, Greek, British. All have been invaded and conquered at some point of history. Redeeming one's ethos has been India's hallmark. Despite the hits it still stands and is well working it's way up the crevice it was dumped into. However facts speak otherwise. India's doctrines helped instigate European rennaisance, little is spoken about it however openly Voltaire, Schopenhauer and others said it to be so. The influence of Indian thought and civilization on European civilization can not be underestimated. India is not becoming any mre Americanized than US is moving to 'Dharmic' thinking and behaviour. US is becoming more and more like India than the other way round..

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Dec 2009 05:56

Sri SanjayM writes:

India is going in for development centuries after America's climb.

Sure, the yankistanis acquired a continent after wiping out the indigenous 'Indians' in an unsung genocide by whatever name and the noble art of genocide we Yindians are yet to learn (Lets start target practice with Muridke, I say!).

Our bickering masses couldn't even resist colonization, and have fallen to invader after invader. There's no reason to believe the future will be any different.

Really? *no* reason to believe the future will be *any* different?

Wow.

And you are on BRF that is dedicated to Indian interests (which presumably do not involve re-colonization of India at any level)? Why, I wonder. Especially if you really, deeply, sincerely believe what you wrote.

If one doesn't care about India, if one really believes it is a lost cause, then is that not inconsistent with hanging around on BRF with a yindoo sounding handle to boot, oozing platitudes on how Science and tech can help the 'Indian situation'? Hey, not questioning your birthright to laze around here, just wondering only.

/Take it easy. I realize your outburst is likely more rhetoric than substance.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 06 Dec 2009 06:12

Sanjay M arguments are more like V.S. nailpaul's arguments during 1960s days.Excessive focus on India's negatives using gutter inspector kind of arguments while at the same time ignoring its other positives . If the idea is to self introspect, it is a horrible way of doing it.

S.Gautam · Post by **S.Gautam** » 06 Dec 2009 06:13

When one is suffering from constant paranoia over what those "Atlanticists" are going to do next, there is no time for silly thoughts such as progress or civilization.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Dec 2009 07:24

Harbans,

Only pretentious people overuse the word "civilization", like some kind of name-dropping exercise.

This is true. Indian politicians have over used this word especially when they have not delivered in terms of human development. I think Sanjay's arguments were too blunt, and knowing what he's posted in the past, I think his last post is being taken out of context.

Villages in fact are India's identity.

Comparing India's development to the US is not fair. The US, as said before benefited from its physical geography, and thus kept invaders out. Secondly, they were of European origin who were the dominant powers in the 18th & 19th centuries.
Finally, the US got lucky to have a George Washington & Abraham Lincoln as its leaders at critical points in history. The closest we had in India was a Subash Chandra Bose (and maybe Sardar Patel), who died untimely, and doesn't get recognition since he wasn't a Kangressi. In fact, India prospers because of the values of individuals, and not so much on its leaders.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 06 Dec 2009 08:41

Mort Walker wrote:Sanjay,

You have a valid point, however the US has benefited by having friendly neighbors to the north and south, and essentially the north American continent has two big oceans to the east & west which has kept out invaders for centuries.
This gave it stability.

Mort, if the leaders of the young USA did not follow up with actions on their "manifest destiny" I am sure more than one country would have popped up on the west and south of the original 13 colonies that first formed the United States. The point is that the leaders even in those days had the visions to see that they absolutely cannot afford to have another country forming beside the USA. To prevent that they ventured into these lands and captured them (Native American lands), bought them (as in Louisianna) or simply blackmailed, blackballed and battled the occupying powers and took over (Cali, TX, NM etc).

Each time such topics appear, all I can think of is the chances wasted in not seizing back parts of J&K that could have afforded a land link to Central Asia and also would have prevented a land link for China to connect Gwadar etc. Two strategically important developments that could have been effected but not to be by one short sightedness. Compare that to the vision and national effort, sacrifices, costs and risks that was spent to make sure the manifest destiny came true in the case of the USA and that too more than a hundred years ago. An Oxford education didn't help.
Avram

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Dec 2009 08:55

Avram,

The Europeans could not project sufficient power in North America due to their own power struggles in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Napoleonic wars and then later the rise of the Austro-Hungarian empire.
During the American civil war, the south entertained the idea of getting England involved on its behalf, but Lincoln quietly put out the word that English interests in Canada would be up to grab by a larger force from the US.
In 1947, India didn't have the industrial base and military power to protect its own borders, let alone expansion. The two major powers of the time also had nuclear weapons.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Dec 2009 09:53

I am puzzled. The US is hardly the epitome of morally developed nation.
If India finishes off a large proportion of its population (like Native Americans), employs slave labor to produce dirt cheap items (no strikes etc, huh) and then grabs land from neighbouring countries (like Mexico and Hawaii) we will develop mucho faster.
Also, all those arbit arguments abt no external help or charity (pls read US history). A large part of development was funded by adventures of EIC and folks like EIC across the globe.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Dec 2009 10:13

US prods India on Kabul..
They want to go back to the WWI and WWII models

http://www.telegraphindia.com//1091205/ ... 824257.jsp

The chief of the US Pacific Command, Admiral Robert Willard, today said India had to decide if it wanted to expand its role — and take on a military responsibility — in Afghanistan with Washington having announced its surge-and-exit policy for the next 18 months.

S.Gautam · Post by **S.Gautam** » 06 Dec 2009 16:09

So apparently Obama held a "jobs summit" (read: another Obama PR stunt for nice pretty pictures). And oh look, India got a mention in his brilliant plan to cut the Great Satan's unemployment rate. Huzzah.

New jobs plan may be more of old one

Another – bringing back low-paying call-center jobs often shipped off to India – might boost the job numbers, but are hardly the kind of family-supporting jobs economists say the country needs.

Seriously? They want back their call center jobs to cut unemployment?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 06 Dec 2009 16:19

but he doesn't talk about bringing back the 'low-paying' yet more stable manufacturing jobs shipped off to China

S.Gautam · Post by **S.Gautam** » 06 Dec 2009 16:29

Raju wrote:but he doesn't talk about bringing back the 'low-paying' yet more stable manufacturing jobs shipped off to China

They know we're a soft state that won't do a thing. So decreasing U.S. unemployment while increasing Indian unemployment is perfectly OK. It's really no different from their Afghan "strategy": fund Pakis to get them to cooperate and the Pakis murder Indians with that money. Indian lives traded for American lives. Just like Indian jobs traded for American jobs. I wonder what Obama will apply this formula to next?

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 06 Dec 2009 18:23

Rony wrote:People also need to remember that the US economic primacy comes not from any internal strengths but from its military and diplomatic strength through which it made its currency the de facto international currency.Take away the dollar status as international currency, the US economy will go down the drain in few years.

Thats true.

In fact, USA was a bankrupt country two years ago but american central bank printed 1 trillion dollars from press and pumped into the banks, companies, stock markets and bloom! everything is back to normal! There was no takeover of American banks by foreign banks because American government jumped in and saved their a$$ses. Also, not to mention the scam run by American rating agencies like Moody and S&P.

Imagine India doing same with Indian banks then, Americans will cry of "free market economy".

Simply speaking, Americans are biggest thieves of world who has no free economy, no honesty and no credibility.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 06 Dec 2009 18:48

The great "Hindu civilization" seems to have been steadily losing ground to any passing invader since its beginnings.

So why are we all still Hindus? Presumably India will immediately acquire "civilisation" when its per capita income reaches USD 10,000. You have no clue what you are talking about. Beating your chest based on ignorance is not a sign of wisdom, despite all the pomposity attached.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Dec 2009 18:53

And with yet another of vishwakarmaa's monotonous whines we bid him adieu for a while (accumulation of 4 warnings)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2009 19:17

ET

India, Russia to sign umbrella nuclear deal 'better than 123'

NEW DELHI: India and Russia will sign on Monday an umbrella agreement for expanding civil nuclear cooperation that will give New Delhi the right
to reprocess spent fuel, taking the pact "far beyond the 123 agreement" inked with the US, a top official said here Sunday.

The official's comments came as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh arrived in Moscow on a three-day visit that is expected to take the time-tested strategic partnership between the two countries to another level in "an evolving international situation."

The inter-governmental umbrella agreement on peaceful uses of nuclear energy will provide a comprehensive framework for expanding the existing civil nuclear cooperation between the two countries. Last year, the two sides signed a pact for Russia building four additional reactors at Kudankulam in the southern state of Tamil Nadu.

The agreement will be an advance on the 123 civil nuclear cooperation agreement signed between India and the US last year by granting India the right to reprocess spent fuel and facilitating the transfer of the sensitive enrichment and reprocessing technologies, official sources said.

Recently, India announced the allocation of one more site at Haripur in West Bengal for nuclear reactors supplied by Russia.

Russia, one of the earliest supporters for India re-joining the global nuclear trade, had supported consensus for New Delhi in the Nuclear Suppliers Group.

India and the US are in the final stages of concluding a reprocessing pact. The pact was expected to be signed during Manmohan Singh's visit to Washington last month, but could not materialise due to "minor problems" relating to the language of the draft agreement.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Dec 2009 22:45

Afghanistan; and attitudes in the US Army
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... anton.html

An excerpt:

"The debate about what to do in Afghanistan has often seemed a simple, binary discussion: all in, or all out. Do we flood the zone with thousands of troops and risk appearing to be imperialist occupiers? Or do we take a light-footprint approach, as in 2001, avoiding the "occupier" label but risking a longer march with the Afghans toward a peaceful society? As Obama pointed out in his speech, there is no simple right and wrong. But some answers are better than others.

One better answer is to revisit the lessons from the Special Forces campaign immediately after Sept. 11, 2001. This may not be easy. Within the military, there is resistance to this kind of warfare. The conventional Army, one Special Forces officer told me, was uncomfortable with the decentralized nature of the war effort in 2001 and with how cheap it was.

He recounted how he was once stopped by a senior officer from the conventional Army who told him, "You must be proud of what you did in Afghanistan." The Special Forces officer said he was.

"Good," replied the other, "because you'll never get the chance to do it again." " Doug Stanton

and

The long standing animosity of the "big army" conventional generals for US Army Special Forces is still there. The "SOF" community is full of it. Special Forces soldiers reading this know that I do not exagerate. COIN is a fad, the "flavor of the year." It is accepted wisdom at this point. Unfortunately for that fad, it is not really possible to use conventional troops to do real COIN work. The infantry fights. That is their role in life. They have no real taste for integrating their lives with those of tribesmen and villagers. A senior person in Rumsfeld's Defense Department once told me that their goal was to make the infantry more like Special Forces. He waved off my observation that Special Forces soldiers and infantrymen are two quite different breeds.

Training, helping and leading the locals as a way of life has never appealed to the big army. Stanton offers an interesting explanation for that. The Green Beret approach to war is inherently decentralized, inherently cheaper in money and an inherent threat to the need for giant budgets and massive equipment programs.

Green Berets are a self aware elite. Other soldiers, including generals, see that self awareness in the eyes of the "Greenies, the Snake Eaters." They understand that men who are not afraid to do this kind of isolated, self motivated duty judge everyone by their own standards. Perhaps that is part of the problem.

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Dec 2009 14:30

Excerpt from the transcript of the interview of our Minister of State for External Affairs, Shashi Tharoor by Karan Thapar.

Title notwithstanding, this interview has lots concerning India’s relations with the US.

Karan Thapar is pretty relentless in going after Minister Tharoor on the point that US in its Af-Pak policy has completely ignored terrorism targeting India that is emanating from within that area.

Karan Thapar is pretty correct in being sceptical of all the clichéd talk out of the US of our being natural allies walking hand in hand to make the world safe from terrorism which it unfortunately appears that our Congress party led Government has uncritically swallowed:

Karan Thapar: Minister, let's start with President Obama's Af-Pak strategy just announced last week. He has promised to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan but he hasn't said a single word about terrorist organisations that target India like LeT and Jaish. Are you disappointed?

Shashi Tharoor: Not at all because basically the problems that affect India directly are our business not anybody else's. President Obama has a direct stake in what's going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

He has troops on the ground in Afghanistan as indeed military action and logistical support through Pakistan. Af-Pak is Afghanistan and Pakistan and it doesn't involve India. So while we are close observers, it doesn't involve whatsoever to be concerned about our omission from the process.

Karan Thapar: Let me pursue the point like this. President Obama went on to say, and I am quoting him, "We cannot tolerate a safe haven for terrorists whose location is known and whose intentions are clear." That applies word-for-word for the presence of LeT and Jaish in Pakistan and yet they are not part of his reckoning.

Shashi Tharoor: Well look. This was a speech about a very specific subject. Here is a President addressing his own people about a commitment made by his government to send his country's nationals as troops to a foreign land. That's what that's all about. Why do we look at it so completely from an Indian perspective?

Karan Thapar: Because it's a commitment to eradicate terrorism and it appears that the only terrorism he is interested in is the one inflicted upon his soldiers and his country and not the terrorism that India suffers.

After all, he has spoken in his speech about the bombing of London, Amman and Bali but he consciously and deliberately left out 26/11. Doesn't it suggest that he views 26/11 in a different light?

Shashi Tharoor: No, look, on that particular point I think the distinction that the Americans have made between what they would call the al-Qaeda inspired attacks and what they would call the more India specific attack of 26/11.

Now, we don't accept that distinction. For us there is no significant difference between somebody who wants to kill people in Bali and somebody who wants to kill people in Mumbai.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely.

Shashi Tharoor: But the point is that we are not the US and we don't have to agree with everything they say and the way they do it, but this particular speech had nothing to do with us. The only thing is that when pressure is eased on the al-Qaeda and Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, it adds to the pressure on us and therefore it is a good thing for us that that aspect of the problem is dealt with and those people are left on the backfoot.

Karan Thapar: I let you answer that fully without interrupting, but I am going to bring you back to the point I made, and that is that he has undertaken a promise that they will not tolerate a safe haven for terrorists - that is exactly what Pakistan is when it comes to the LeT and Jaish.

He says: "Terrorists whose intentions are clear will be removed." That again applies to LeT and Jaish and yet LeT and Jaish don't feature. They are paramount.

Shashi Tharoor: This is not a speech about LeT and Jaish. This is a speech about Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Karan Thapar: Precisely. LeT and Jaish are centered in Pakistan, they are probably supported by Pakistan.

Shashi Tharoor: The Afghan-Pak border is what they are talking about. The people who are bothering us are not on the Afghan-Pak border necessarily. Some of them are, some of them aren't.

My point is quite simply this: we do have strong cooperation with the US which is of a very different nature because the US doesn't have any troops or security forces engaged in any operation against our immediate enemies, but we do have cooperation, we have exchange of information. When the Prime Minister was in Washington, his (President Obama's) staff initialed a counter-terrorism initiative.

Karan Thapar: Let me come back to the fight against terror. President Obama in that speech repeatedly called Pakistan a partner, he talked about a partnership with Pakistan and yet in Indian eyes Pakistan is either a state that sponsors terror or at least a sympathiser of terror.

Can you have a meaningful partnership fighting terror with a country that uses terror as an instrument of state policy?

Shashi Tharoor: Now, you and I may have a different view of this from the US, but you know that in my old UN Peacekeeping days, I was taught by an old American - a very grizzled American general - the adage that amateurs discuss strategy, rank amateurs discuss tactics and true professionals focus on logistics.
And there is no effective action against terrorists on the Afghan-Pakistan border without being conscious of the logistics of Pakistan, of using Pakistani territory to supply American forces, of NATO going through Pakistani soil. Logistics are an extremely important consideration there.

Karan Thapar: You are blinding me with glib speech. Logistics only come in the way once you have got the target and the principles correct. What I am pointing out to you is that the American President's view of Pakistan is blinkered.

He is only looking at the terror that is sourced from Pakistan that affects him. The terror from Pakistan that affects us is consciously, deliberately ignored.

Shashi Tharoor: That's not accurate. The US is looking at the terror that affects us. They are looking at it off camera. They are not looking at it in a speech that the US President makes to his people about his troops. There are no American people involved in our fight. This is our problem. Let's deal with it ourselves. ………….

Read it all:

Devil's Advocate: Tharoor speaks on Pak's N-arms

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 07 Dec 2009 18:28

S. Gautam, there is no point in ranting based on what some editorialist wrote, when there is no evidence that it is actually based on anything that Obama actually said.

Here is an actual report from the event. The only country Obama is reported as having mentioned is China.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04731.html

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Dec 2009 22:29

SwamyG wrote:Amber: There comes a time, when it becomes frustrating to keep banging our heads against stupidity. I forced myself to not visit this thread, that was my way of handling certain comments. Every now and then fingers do get the khujli to strike the keyboard furiously I have met people in real life who appear to come straight out of a meeting involving Glen Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, Medved ithiyadi. The jaw just drops. It is impossible to have conversations.

May be you are right but it is really sad from the point of view of some one who has been here in BRF for 10+ years to see even the innocent and non-controversial statements (Like a link to some one celebrating Diwali, or a Zakaria piece brings a deluge of hateful responses.

It is sad when people like B. Raman describes BRF as "Hindtva site" or Respected Ex BRF contributers in other blogs describe contents here as diatribe from "Birthers and Right Wingers). Recent post from an ex-BRFMonitor contributer puts it this way:

[BRF is] woefully under prepared ... So busy are forumites ... finding out the last christian missionary preaching in Andhra Pradesh that they forgot to grasp the implicit promise in the structure of the deal itself.

l

I have not visited this thread for a few days, I will respond to a few items directly addressed to me below FWIW..

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Dec 2009 22:33

prad wrote:
Agree with that [NRao’s assessment of Obama’s strategy]
not to rain on the messiah's parade, but it's a little too early to judge Obama's foreign policy strategy. as i've said before, Obama faces the same challenge that Kennedy faced almost 50 years ago. Kennedy proved he had balls. it still remains to be seen if Obama can do the same. my take is, it's too early to pass judgement on Obama yet. until now, he's made himself look like a pushover, but as somebody said, the real fun is in the second round....that is when Obama's true mettle will be tested. until then...i'll just watch.

First, let me just say Obama is not “Messiah” (at least not mine) (and I must say it is rather silly to call him that name and channel Rush) but agree with you that it is too early and “until then .. just watch” is sound.

And also I will like to watch and wait till one declares verdict such as “Obama is the most anti-Indian administration ever” (which, BTW, I am not making that up it is a frequent war cry for some crowd here)…

(What bothered me was pre MMS/BO rona/dhona where there was no “watch and wait” from some members here and Post Meet discussion being (See posts from N^3 (“RoDho thread “Now people are whining that there was NO bowing”), or Amit’s/Pgbhat and others (Viewing the MMS/Obama meat as a success”) addressed as:

Hang in there buddy, the "events" will take a while to materialize, but keep watching that space and they'll show up.
The Manmohan-Maino cabal ...

[/quote]….
(For some, Hey, why pay attention to facts – just follow the narrative)

Any way I see no evidence yet that this US administration will going to be worst. Let me share why I (and believe many others) are little optimist:

Few months ago I was at a dinner part given by a US Naval personal (Indian origin) in honor of about a half dozen Indian Navy and Coast guard officers ( and their family) who were here (in US – Naval War College or such name) for additional training.( One of the coast guard officer was one who was heroically involved in 26/11 affair)). They were here (with their family) for extended period of time and were enjoying their stay and training here in US. One thing I asked and they all agreed that the cooperation between US/India wrt to this type of training was good (which I believe started in last few years only with Bush Admin) and all I heard was real positive things.

Also things like Daood Gilani / David Headley case indicate that the intelligence cooperation between US/India is better.

Similarly getting Visa for Indian students/scientists has become much easier than few years ago..(My guru-daxina to my old alma-mater goes in helping promising students to exchange visits between US/India)
Sure, these thngs alone does not prove everything is perfect or as good as it should be , but it also does not indicate that there is nothing but evil in US. And one has to look for evil even some positive comments.

Regards.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Dec 2009 22:53

S.Gautam wrote:
Judging your very transparent personal adoration for Obama, you might be the type who sticks to partisan sites within your comfort circle and may be unaware of more mainstream perceptions
Sorry to burst your bubble and state the obvious, yes I am not on the side of the "partisan" Talibs and their "mainstream" perceptions...Yes, those kind who think they are genius to spell Obama with an extra 'b' ..( BTW there are many other "mainstream worthies" in deaf-and dumb form who insist on spelling India with an extra b too ... as they too think they are expert on US/India policy) ...Or like the Einsteins of Paki editors those who think that any one who voted for Obama ( ) have blood on their hand for Mumbai Massacre. Sorry boss judge all you want, I have the same respect for you (generic you), that is those who brings out the same old stale comments post after posts. (Like members writings supporting Birthers etc..) ...
And in one move, you paint those not enamored with Obama as Pakis, Taliban, and "Birthers". Astonishing brilliance. I'll recede and cry the night away. Wake up and smell the coffee. It's extremely obvious from your posts that you love Obama to a fault. It's like you have a vested personal interest in upholding his plunging reputation....

Gautamji – About “loving Obama to a fault” (which you keep repeating) let me just say, I voted for the man, I like some of his policies and do not like some. Sure, I am not scared by his middle name, think senseless misspelling of his name is pathetic and do not consider, for example, his wishing Diwali to us is evil.
If you have read the posts, (instead of what you (or Rush for that matter) think is in the posts IOW if there is group think, you start believing (IMO) what ever the group-think wants you to believe) If you take care to read (actually read!) my first message, there is a link, and quote from that link about various people’s (including Talib) reaction to Obama’s speech… You are quoted but NO assumptions were made that about YOU .. Just a report. You should read that part again.

It was only your diatribe about “my adoration to obama” and “stick to patrician sites” which provoked my laugher.

Gautamji wrote:And in one move, you paint those not enamored with Obama as Pakis, Taliban, and "Birthers". Astonishing brilliance. I'll recede and cry the night away.

No, Not even by a long shot. Nice straw man but the set does not consist of “not enamored with Obama”. In any case let me be clear, what I (and I believe many other decent members here) am taking exceptions to kind of statements : (specially when made without a shred of credible evidence)

For Birthers – The type of post from Philiphji “Obama is a fraud” because he was born in Kenya etc… .. I believe I was very clear pointing that out so please stop raising straw man.

For Zaid hamid and other Paki edits:

• Indian government (or PM or President or "MMS cabal" ) is complicit in Mumbai Massacre
• US Voters or are responsible for those murders (because they may have voted of a certain candidates)
• All who studied in one particular institute are traitors.

Do you get the point?
(Yes, simple search would show that these are the kind of statements which have (some times repeatedly) been made in this forum) ...

If you want to see the silly venomous group-think - just check out posts after posts demoralizing - just one example - Zakaria - by bringing even his father's name to "discuss his piece in Newsweek")

In any case, let us agree to disagree, As SwamiG said I too find this rather frustrating and unpleasant to spend too much time here.
.
Regards.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Dec 2009 00:09

Amber-ji,

Time will tell and we'll see how everything progresses in terms of Indo-US relations. I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong and I'll openly apologize, but we'll see where we are by Nov. 2012.
Its time to move on. Don't take it personally if others are more skeptical based. If you don't like it here or the thread/forum doesn't represent your views, then don't post or visit. Its quite simple really.

You made the comment about getting US visas for students & visiting scientists easier. From what I understand, this had become easier since 2007. What I've seen, and its only anecdotal evidence so far; for those who have advanced graduate & doctoral degrees from US universities, and are from India, the last year has become more difficult for these people to convert their work visas to a green card or permanent resident.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Dec 2009 00:50

Amber G.
Not a whole lot can be done if you see Obama's middle name being constantly used as if to remind us posters his middle name or his father's religion. Any insinuations that he is Muslim might work with SOME Christian fundamentalists in certain sections of Unkiland and might scare them; to us desis having grown up with Christians and Muslims it is like "SO what?" onlee. We have lived together or fought the muslim invaders well enough.

It is similar to folks who constantly spell "MS" as "M$" - they are too caught up with their hurt, anger or whatever that might be. I sympathize with BJP, and sometimes have thought MMS has not been the greatest PM. Few times I even have considered that he is a puppet in others hands. But that is politics as we know it in this World. In my opinion Raja Ram (BRFite) is the only person to have put a concrete and coherent thoughts on what could be MMS vision and views.

It is said that in an online discussion if one brings 'Hitler' into the picture, then constructive future discussions become impossible.

You will never be able to stop 'character assassination' and however annoying it is if we join the battle; it will became similar to the urge to scratch an itch. Soon it will engulf us and force us to scratch it more.

Just my 2cents.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Dec 2009 00:57

asprinzl wrote:Each time such topics appear, all I can think of is the chances wasted in not seizing back parts of J&K that could have afforded a land link to Central Asia and also would have prevented a land link for China to connect Gwadar etc. Two strategically important developments that could have been effected but not to be by one short sightedness. Compare that to the vision and national effort, sacrifices, costs and risks that was spent to make sure the manifest destiny came true in the case of the USA and that too more than a hundred years ago. An Oxford education didn't help.
Avram

Very well said. If we consider the history handed down to us, it is clear that unless a nation dreams and has a vision for greater glory it will not achieve much. Only because Indian Emperors dreamed and conquered were they able to create a vast empire. Once Statecraft is a b*tch to put it mildly. And it is leaders/politicians dharma to behave as a b*tch to keep moving the State forward towards prosperity. If one does not think far long, then one will not have the motivation to acquire new assets nor preserve the current ones. Hopefully our leaders are working and it is just that we don't know about it

It is quite possible, we can never ever underestimate anybody. As the cliche goes, 'time will tell onlee'

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Dec 2009 01:02

Moderator's note

I understand several posters here have strong feelings about either political orientation in the US. Some of you are US citizens, or otherwise have a very strong material/emotional attachment to the US. None of this is a problem in itself.

However, this is a forum focusing on Indian concerns, not US ones. Regardless of who made incendiary statements, henceforth both participants will receive warnings for persisting in a debate that is both tangential to Indian interests, and inclined to create bad blood between posters. Please leave your local US concerns at the door when addressing a fellow BRFite. Viewing/treating a fellow member as a 'republican' or 'democrat' will lead to a posting slant that will very likely earn you a warning.

On the question of the 'Ombaba' usage, a discussion among moderators resulted in the opinion that this is harmless, no different from 'Dubya'. While Indian leaders must be referred to with due respect, we don't extend that to everyone else. Just as the leaders of Pakistan, UK and PRC have humourous nicknames, the same applies to the US.

Thanks.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 08 Dec 2009 23:54

Sanjay M wrote:Americans developed their country without any foreign aid packages or charities. They developed themselves without any Kaangress-style welfare state. They have every right to feel proud of what they have built for themselves through their own labour and sweat.

India is going in for development centuries after America's climb. Our bickering masses couldn't even resist colonization, and have fallen to invader after invader. There's no reason to believe the future will be any different.

One thing you fail to recognize about America is that they are the colonizers. America that is built is the successful colonization of another continent by colonizers.

BTW, remember that once western civilization loses its dominance over the world, it will be the most hated civilization in the history of the world for thousands of years to come. It has a huge number of skeletons in its closets. Once they come out, population around the world, be it Africans, Native Americans, Native Australians, East Asians, South Asians or West Asians, will be talking only about the bad things western civilization did to them.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 09 Dec 2009 04:10

Paramu and vishwakarmaa,

In y'alls opinion, if the US is such a satan and evil country, What are the large but good countries out there (other than India of course). And why?

I am curious.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 09 Dec 2009 05:15

America is not a colonizer country or else Japan would have been like what Poland was to SU, and Philipines would have been what Singapore was to British.

America is a country created by migrants initially from Europe and then from rest of world, mostly to create wealth. It has no inherent superiority complex unlike British and most Americans just care about sports, local issues and are busy in kitchen and garage re-modelling.
Since its an artificial country with very few native people, it has no residual conflicts.

America can in fact be thought of as a huge SEEPZ(Andheri!!) and due to no legacy conflicts/rules and a pursuit of wealth and happiness culture, it has become the economic power it is.

Western civilization is just European civilization. America still has no civilization but has had an American century(20th) due to reasons above.

One thing you fail to recognize about America is that they are the colonizers. America that is built is the successful colonization of another continent by colonizers.

BTW, remember that once western civilization loses its dominance over the world, it will be the most hated civilization in the history of the world for thousands of years to come. It has a huge number of skeletons in its closets. Once they come out, population around the world, be it Africans, Native Americans, Native Australians, East Asians, South Asians or West Asians, will be talking only about the bad things western civilization did to them.

S.Gautam · Post by **S.Gautam** » 09 Dec 2009 05:30

Karna_A, I believe they're talking about the colonization of the American mainland itself - the westward push that basically consisted of taking land from Native Americans, forcing them into "reservations", and occasionally going to war with them or committing massacres.

About the superiority complex, it all depends on your interpretation, but American Exceptionalism or Manifest Destiny could be deemed a superiority complex.