Indian Interests

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Nov 2009 20:49

This is interesting. However, in Khilji times - Khilji presence and claims to Punjab right up to the "frontier" was not disputed. India does not have that luxury.

Khiljis did not have an ideologically motivated opponent, based in northern Punjab and lying between Mongols and themselves - who could facilitate the Mongols.

Moreover, the most vicious of the Kihiljis - Alauddin - could not prevent Mongol access to the heartlands around Delhi. The Mongols were present for a long time around and do not seem to have been specifically pushed out because of military successes against them by Alauddin.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2009 22:45

Pachauri advises MMS to attend Copenhagen.

Do attend Copenhagen

Guy gets a medal for his society (not himself) with Gore and thinks he can pressure GOI!
Talk of RNI.

MMS will do what he needs to do on climate change.

Pachauri to Manmohan: Do attend Copenhagen

Pioneer News Service | New Delhi

On a day US President Barack Obama called up Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to discuss the situation in Afghanistan and the forthcoming Copenhagen climate change summit, IPCC chairman RK Pachauri became the latest to join the international bandwagon of those calling for Singh’s participation in the global negotiations, starting December 7.

More so, since India is at the crossroads’, what with the US and China having already set the tone by announcing their respective reduction targets and both Obama and Wen Jiabao confirming their participation in the UN summit. French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who too would attend, has also invited Singh to the summit. In fact, around 90 Presidents and Prime Ministers are expected to participate on the concluding day, on December 18.

The PMO said Obama called up Singh this morning and in a brief conversation the two discussed the situation in Afghanistan and the further steps that could be taken to bring peace and stability in the country. “The two leaders also discussed the forthcoming summit on Climate Change in Copenhagen.”

Singh told Obama that India would play a constructive role in the negotiations and looked forward to a successful outcome. In the run up to the summit, as the chances of a consensus for binding emission reduction targets look bleak, the importance of the participation of the heads of states is being stressed upon both to ensure a positive outcome and also since a political declaration too is being talked about.

According to Pachauri, Singh’s participation will be important, as it will signify that India is a deal maker and not a deal breaker.

Pachauri predicted that US’ announcement about cutting greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions by 17 per cent by 2020, compared to 2005, and China’s announcement that it would reduce the GHG-intensity of its economy by 40-45 per cent by 2020, compared to 2005, would put more pressure on India to come up with similar quantitative commitments.

“Of course, India being a growing country cannot take any binding emission cuts. But if the talks happen in that way (developed nations agreeing for emission reductions), there would be no getting away from the fact that India will be under pressure. I personally think that in that scenario India should be willing to lay its National Action Plan on Climate change at the table at Copenhagen,” Pachauri, the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) chief, said at a function here.

Advocating a shift towards renewable energy sources from fossil fuels, Pachauri said, “India must bargain at Copenhagen for large-scale resources to finance its solar mission”. His mantra for success at Copenhagen: A collective emission reduction target by industrialised countries by 2020, which he said would be “good if it was 20 per cent”; financial assistance to developing countries to cope with climate change effects; and transfer of cheap green technologies, perhaps through a technology fund.

MMS has assured that India wont be a spoiler. Why then the pressure from this guy?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2009 22:57

ShauryaT wrote:
Paul wrote:Frontier Policy of Delhi Sultans

As submitted before, we are too fixated on the frontier policies of the British Indian empire and ignoring the policies followed by the Mughals and earlier sultanat.

The successful strategy followed by the Khiljis to keep the Mongols off balance should be a case study in Indian power circles. The British strategy is not applicable to India as we do not have to deal with Imperial Russia. The challenges faced by the Turkic Khiljis are not very different from the challenges faced by post 1947 India.
Interesting book Paul. I have ordered a copy.

ST, Where did you order the book from? Seems very interesting. Long time ago I was fascinated with Balban's policy and didn't follow up that initial curiosuity as I drifted to Engg for rozgar. the Mameluk period isnt well covered in history books as a continuum of Af-Pak and North India and further linkages.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 03 Dec 2009 23:07

ramana wrote: ST, Where did you order the book from? Seems very interesting. Long time ago I was fascinated with Balban's policy and didn't follow up that initial curiosuity as I drifted to Engg for rozgar. the Mameluk period isnt well covered in history books as a continuum of Af-Pak and North India and further linkages.

flipkart.com - Book is here

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Dec 2009 06:11

a_kumar wrote:Old link.. maybe posted earlier.. but not sure.

Missionary Agenda of YSR

1. The GO portal is active only from February 2008, hence the data given is only of 1 year (ie., Feb 2008 to Jan 2009). Note that although vast, it is by no means comprehensive (ie., I have shown Govt 263.07 lakhs to Christian institutions. This amount is the minimum spent on them, not the maximum).

2. But even for a single year, an amount of 263.07 lakhs was given as aid to various Christian institutions.

3. More than 258 churches benefited from these grants for construction/renovation of churches.

4. An amount of 1316.54 lakhs was given as aid to various Muslim institutions through Wakf boards.

5. Not a single GO granting any aid to a Hindu temple can be found. This in spite of the fact that in AP, the Hindu temples are managed by the Endowments Ministry (put it simply they take all the money which the temples generate).

6. Govt takes away all the money which Hindu temples generate, but do not grant a single penny to any of its temples. It does not touch the money from Christian and Muslim institutions, but grants them huge amounts of money.
Reference :List of Christian Charities that got funds from Andhra CM

The amazing thing is nobody neither media nor the so called hindu right wing be it VHP or RSS takes up these issues. Just 20 years ago it seemed nothing to stop the rise of Bharat in its original form, on TV you had serial Chanakya running, Ramjanmbhoomi issue on political front, MM Joshi, Ashok Singhal, B Devras, Giriraj Kishore were roaring like lions. And now suddenly no voice not even a whimper, what happened? Are they under pressure from formidable combination of Vatican + NATO + US to keep quiet? Can't understand

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 05 Dec 2009 06:31

20 years ago the media was not openned up to all influences and you did not have Sonia running the country

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 06 Dec 2009 02:06

^^Jarita very true about Press and Sonia, but how come VHP, RSS and people like Modi and MM Joshi are keeping mum?

1. Is it that they are under pressure from US etc.?

or

2. They are letting the SG and coutrie get overconfident and waiting for right moment?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Dec 2009 06:03

Errr, don't take NaMo's name in the same == breath as that of the likes of Sri MM Joshi.

The ABV-LKA-Jassoo-Joshi group had a chance - a real shot at changing things on the ground - when they held the de facto levers of power for 6 full yrs. Granted, there are pulls and pressures but its not as if these veterans in politics didn;t know that. What did they achieve I ask? Why not declassify the '62 documents? build a memorial to the BD victims of '71? Move court to scrap Art 370, the Asom accord and repeal the IMDT? Dump the NCERT board and the Thaparas of the world out of gubmint influence? Prevent the cash flowing into EJ and naxal hands? etc etc.

NaMo never held power in Dilli. But within Gujrat, the changes in all areas - political, security, economic, infrastructure, vision, education, health, other social indicators etc etc - are too awesome to bear dismissal.

Just saying, is all.

/Sorry for the OT.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Dec 2009 06:38

No point in "bashing" SG.

Her two sides have to be separated. On one side, she has been an epitome of a Bharatyia wife, mother and DIL. She has stood by her family, managed a most "difficult" MIL, been a faithful wife, and a devoted mother. We must and should appreciate that side. By appreciating that side, we pay our respects to our own culture and heritage.

Her other side is that of the figurehead for a political machine which she has been forced to take over because of circumstantial and family commitments and until her children take over. We cannot blame her for everything that the huge political machine is doing, or has done, or is going to do in the future. By thinking of her as the sole mover of everything that goes around in that machine, will be a serious error of judgement. And the real trends and motives will remain unclear.

The very fact of how she coped in her personal life speaks volumes about the determination and steadfastness of the character of the lady. She may not be brilliant but a formidable person to reckon with simply because of her other personal side which compensates for native political talent. But she has severe limitations imposed by the peculiarity of her situation.

We should not be seriously concerned about future leadership. The nation will find its own when it needs.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Dec 2009 08:06

b-ji,

Humble, simple query for you only. What do you make of Sri Rahul Gandhi, based on what we know so far? What will his impact be on Indian-ic interests as and when he eventually rises to take the mantle of INC leadership?

Just asking, I don't expect specifics. Some general direction would work wonders. TIA.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Dec 2009 08:51

Manish_Sharma wrote:
The amazing thing is nobody neither media nor the so called hindu right wing be it VHP or RSS takes up these issues. Just 20 years ago it seemed nothing to stop the rise of Bharat in its original form, on TV you had serial Chanakya running, Ramjanmbhoomi issue on political front, MM Joshi, Ashok Singhal, B Devras, Giriraj Kishore were roaring like lions. And now suddenly no voice not even a whimper, what happened?

Probably because they realized that issues like Ram janmabhoomi and the like don't garner Hindu votes. Hindus do not vote collectively based on religious issues unlike Muslims. Whether to view this as good or bad is up to you.

Are they under pressure from formidable combination of Vatican + NATO + US to keep quiet? Can't understand

"Vatican + NATO + US"? Seriously? This has got to be the Indian equivalent of a RAW-Mossad-CIA conspiracy in Pakistan.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Dec 2009 10:42

Hari Seldon,
I know you ask Bpti but based on what one is seeing - Rahul comes across as a very ordinary person. He is not charismatic, intelligent or articulate as his predecessors. His antics in Delhi society are that of a spoilt person with a sense of entitlement
I was watching Rajiv Gandhi interviews and Rajiv Gandhis personality was 1000 times more impressive than Rahul Gandhi. He was also much more sincere and I believe that India would have benefitted from his increased experience had he lived.

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 06 Dec 2009 11:21

Just 20 years ago it seemed nothing to stop the rise of Bharat in its original form, on TV you had serial Chanakya running, Ramjanmbhoomi issue on political front, MM Joshi, Ashok Singhal, B Devras, Giriraj Kishore were roaring like lions. And now suddenly no voice not even a whimper, what happened?

From Hindu interest view point ABV was a Trojan horse (http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hibh/ch9.htm : term "windbag" is for ABV, read and draw your own conclusions) and he did his job really well. From Kalyan Singh in UP to Uma Bharati in MP he made sure that no Hindutva leader with mass support survives in BJP. He insulted and humiliated Ramchandra Paramhansa of Ramjanma Bumi movement and he died of that shock. Fate of a smart and honest person like Govindacharya is well known. ABV brought in Dalals like Lalji Tondon who will try to humiliate leaders like Kalyan Singh. Rise of Pramod Mahajn is well known. Advani is a hizda and a dishonest person. As koenraad elst wrote recently:

"After the 1991 elections, when the BJP rose to the rank of largest opposition party, the Ayodhya demand was ditched, first mentally, then gradually also in practice{Because advani & Co was not prepared to go jail and charged under various sections of IPC and risk their political career and ambitions }. The activists felt that the leaders didn't mean business, that they didn't dare to push for the logical next step viz. physically replacing the mosque structure (already in use for Hindu worship) with temple architecture. It was clear that the leaders had no clue on how to go about it. As it later turned out, in 1998-2004, even with the mosque gone and the BJP in power, Advani c.s. didn't move a finger towards the construction of the temple. So the ordinary activists had rightly sensed the unwillingness of the leaders to take the movement forward. The leaders could have avoided this outcome by charting a political roadmap towards a negotiated temple construction and then staying the course. Instead they tried to give the issue a quiet burial all while still making some increasingly faint pro-temple noises in order to retain their vote-bank. (http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... ition.html)

In short BJP's top leadership got $hit scared in their pants and buried the whole movement. ABV (along with Brajesh Mishra) did the job of serving the family where his real loyalty was.

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Dec 2009 11:32

brihaspati wrote:No point in "bashing" SG.

Her two sides have to be separated. On one side, she has been an epitome of a Bharatyia wife, mother and DIL. She has stood by her family, managed a most "difficult" MIL, been a faithful wife, and a devoted mother. We must and should appreciate that side. By appreciating that side, we pay our respects to our own culture and heritage.

Brihaspatiji I commend and respect you for this post of yours. A lady who has not ditched her adopted country even after the decimation of her family and love of her life should not be hurled abuses at, I have tried to drill this fact in the heads of the born again BJP/RSS supporters. The real workers of the BJP understand realities and refrain from attacking SG needlessly but some people time and again score self goals by abusing our own bahu. The dharma says once she has accepted us we have accepted her too and there is no need to insult our own heritage by doubting the bahu of the house.

The very fact of how she coped in her personal life speaks volumes about the determination and steadfastness of the character of the lady. She may not be brilliant but a formidable person to reckon with simply because of her other personal side which compensates for native political talent. But she has severe limitations imposed by the peculiarity of her situation.

People do not realize that she resurrected the INC from dead and has indeed managed to effect a turnaround in the fortunes of the organization against all odds and that too in a foreign setting! Even as we speak she is grooming the future leaders of India by sponsoring their scholarships, promoting them in various organizations, in politics and media. While the Parivar is busy in infighting and dissing its own upcoming leaders. The crab mentality of Indian right will always hinder the growth of BJP/Sena/Sangh et al.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Dec 2009 11:38

Jarita wrote:Hari Seldon,
I know you ask Bpti but based on what one is seeing - Rahul comes across as a very ordinary person. He is not charismatic, intelligent or articulate as his predecessors. His antics in Delhi society are that of a spoilt person with a sense of entitlement
I was watching Rajiv Gandhi interviews and Rajiv Gandhis personality was 1000 times more impressive than Rahul Gandhi. He was also much more sincere and I believe that India would have benefitted from his increased experience had he lived.

Jarita,
In our leadership, all we can ask and hope for is character. Charishma etc baad mein (PVNR wasn't charishmatic, as the Lordie well knows). Intelligence while important is not all-important. What is required is extraordinary character. Having the head and jeart in the right place. Keeping Indian interests above all else- politics, personal glory and the like. Ordinary levels of intelligence and charishma can be lived with. IMHO, of course.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Dec 2009 11:46

Character nahein hai esp. where opposite sex hai

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 06 Dec 2009 11:46

Partition not a settled fact, has to be undone, says Bhagwat

With the BJP-in-transition debating its dynamics with the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat opened another front on Friday when he said that “partition of the country was not a settled fact” and that the “division of the sub-continent would have to be undone for everyone’s good”.
“We are often told to forget about this (Partition), but those who forget are condemned to repeat it. Partition is not a settled fact, and it shall have to be undone. When we refer to Bharat, it’s always Akhand Bharat. Those who think otherwise have been brought up on a western value system in the name of progress,” he said at the release of a booklet called Bharat Vibhajan — Ek Trasadi, Ek Kalank (India’s Partition — A Tragedy, A Blot).

Bhagwat’s speech runs contrary to the dominant stream of thought on “India and its Neighbourhood” in the BJP. During the NDA rule in 1999, the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee had visited Minar-e-Pakistan while in 2005, BJP leader L K Advani visited Mohammed Ali Jinnah’s mausoleum in Karachi — two steps that the BJP regards important in according Pakistan legitimacy as an independent country.

While Bharatiya Jana Sangh ideologue late Deen Dayal Upadhyay had mooted “a confederation of South Asian states”, Bhagwat didn’t specify his own blueprint for “Akhand Bharat”, but added that “no truth could be established without adequate force” and that a “common Hindu past alone could be the basis of emotional integration for the subcontinent” and that it would be the basis for everyone’s happiness. He also claimed that “recent research findings on DNA mapping have established that the inhabitants of this sub-continent in the last 40,000 years have had similar DNA”, and “thus no one could be called minorities in the country”.

Bhagwat indicated that Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tibet, Nepal, Myanmar and Sri Lanka once formed “Akhand Bharat”.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/parti ... at/550229/

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 06 Dec 2009 11:56

something i wrote on brf quite some time ago -

The biggest stake holders in India is the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty. The modern Republic of India, however it is, is mostly built by Indian National Congress (INC). So, they have plenty of invested interests and efforts and money and memories in this country.

This dynasty will do anything to maintain its interests, which is whole nation. The dynasty won't do anything which will compromise their position of power in independent India. According to Newton's first law of motion, An object continues to be in state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by some unbalanced force. Here, the object is India under dynasty. The dynasty will move in the direction of the force which overcomes the equilibrium of competing forces. This applies to internal forces like Hindutva and Naxalism as well as external forces like interests of USA, Russia, China, Evangelical forces and Jihadi Islamism. The dynasty will compromise anything to maintain a strong presence in India's power circle. Dynasty is typically a status-quo loving entity, especially in post Indira Gandhi era. In case when they are in power, they try to consolidate their power without trying to be intrepid and doing things out of the way. They show typical behaviour of North Indian power Satrap described in this article.

PVNR-Manmohan Singh jodi (liberalization-1991) and Vajpayee (nuclear tests-1998) provided the radical internal unbalancing forces which dramatically changed the trajectory of India. Now that the trajectory is fixed, the dynasty, whenever in power, will do anything to ensure that the new trajectory remains unchanged. I am glad that communists never got such a chance to introduce a defining change in trajectory of India.

Now, it is alleged that Gandhi dynasty have been increasingly acting as puppets of foreign powers since the death of Indira Gandhi. Recently, a lawsuite for $ 100 million was filed by Indian National Overseas Congress on few Hindu leaders in New-york supreme court against defamation of Sonia Gandhi.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14654132

$100m lawsuit against US Hindu leaders New York: New York-based Indian National Overseas Congress Inc (INOC) has filed a lawsuit in the Supreme Court of the State of New York for $100 million against three prominent Hindu activists Narain Kataria, Arish Sahani and Bharat Barai for allegedly defaming UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi by releasing a full page advertisement in The New York Times during her October visit to the US. The plaintiff Dr Surinder Malhotra, Chief Executive Officer of INOC states in the complaint in New York Supreme court that false statements had been made in the advertisement about his boss Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul Gandhi in The New York Times dated October 6. INOC has hired a law firm which had represented Ariel Sharon of Israel against Time magazine.
Apparently this lawsuite was defeated in the court. This proves that courts did not find the lawsuite holding any weightage. Which inturns leads us to speculation that the allegations made by them against Sonia might be true.

In case, we assume that external agencies have invested a lot INC and Gandhi dynasty and that they are at the best influenced by foreign agents or at the worst have become puppets of external forces, this leads us nowhere. What matters is, if there is some iota of truth in this hypothesis, what next?Because, Gandhi dynasty has returned to power in general elections 2009 with conclusive defeat of both BJP and more importantly, Communists. Now that they are back to the position of supreme power yet again, how will their behavior be, with respect to their alleged foreign string-holders.

For this, we have to look into the history of Gandhi dynasty and then speculate the reasons why this has been.

It was most probably after assassination of Indira Gandhi, when Rajiv Gandhi was forced into politics out of his peaceful life. It has been a fight for survival for Rajmata and her kids since then. The complex geopolitical factors caused death of her husband as well. After assassination of Rajiv Gandhi, she went into complete oblivion and took herself and her children away from Indian political scenario.

For some reasons, she entered national political scene. The probable reasons are
1. Increasing clout of BJP and Vajpayee.
2. Need of INC to invoke the name of Gandhi dynasty to maintain their political presence and power.

Hence she was urged to enter active politics. Why did Sonia Gandhi accept this offer is the biggest enigma. She knew what mess she was getting into. But, perhaps meanwhile she had renewed the old contacts and built some new ones (both internal and external) which became the powerful friends of her dynasty. Without this support and insurance, she would never have entered the power-mess of Indian politics which was experiencing a major shift away from INC and towards BJP and Hindutva.

Once she entered the political scenario of India, the magic of her dynasty slowly started working. The old Indira - designed system was renewed and old investments, political apointees were called upon to do the bidding of the dynasty. This coupled with India-Shining Fiasco of Vajpayee govt, led to INC and hence gandhi dynasty coming back to power in 2004, although, with the help of communists.

Last 5 years have been interesting to observe. The drastic changes in geopolitics of globe and region have started to force upon the dynasty to execute certain steps which will bring India strategically away from communism and socialism. The Indian Chanakyas in Ministry of External Affairs and other ministries must have seen this as an opportunity to increase the clout of India as well earn some money. It is the "Ganga Beh rahi hain, haath dho lo"attitude which was displayed by MMS during the entire Indo-US nuke deal process. MMS govt showed the shrewdness of an attractive girl flirting with 2-3 boyfriends simultaneously and extracting things which she perceives as goodies. The results in 2009 General elections have shown that Sonia Gandhi and Gandhi Dynasty is at the zenith of her power and she is as safe as she can ever be along with all her political investments.

The point now is, how will she and hence the kids, move ahead. As I have elucidated earlier, the KGB stuff was need of Rajmata during her Vanvaas. Now that she is safely and soundly back in her palace at Indraprastha without dogged pursuit of commies, will the dynasty show the guts to slowly eliminate the foreign influences or not? This is based on initial assumption that all men of power desire more power-absolute power.

One more interesting speculation. MMS also seems to be a Mahatma Vidur. Does he have anything up his sleeve that will be a pleasant surprise?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Dec 2009 12:53

Manmohan needs to do a Viru

Written obviously before Viru faltered at the doorstep of history but a good persp nonetheless.

But the UPA and Manmohan Singh are batting like it’s a treacherous pitch on the fifth day of a match which they need to save. The pre-match conference has all the right words but nobody is batting. Almost every minister crowed about an agenda after 100 days but hardly any movement is visible. We are still talking about adding two digit kilometres in roads, 10,000 MW in generation capacity when China is adding 75000 MW and boasting about the aim to create 6 AIIMS like hospitals when we need 60. Week after week political parties and politicians wail about rising prices but none will step forward and bell the cat – the absolute and pathetic state of the supply chain from farm to fork. The price of tur dal or tomato goes up by 300 per cent in the distance between the farmer and the consumer. It is nearly 200 days since Manmohan Singh took charge and we are still discussing instead of acting. If India is growing at nearly six per cent it is because like Sehwag the economy is not waiting for any plan or agenda. But this is not enough. India has a potential to grow at 8-9 per cent and needs to grow at 10. What we are not doing at home – from reforming the dole subsidy raj to bringing accountability in governance – is the single biggest reason why we seem to be missing from the G-2 frame.That is what will put it on the world map not intellectual gab fests at Pittsburg, Washington or Copenhagen.

With 300 million people living below poverty line, over 700 million living on less than Rs 20 a day and two thirds of the rural populace living on a fifth of the national income India can hardly afford to bat out of the text book. It needs to and must create shots that are out of the book to deliver growth for only growth will deliver the billion-plus populace. For now it is Viru who will bring a smile on the faces of suffering souls. And bless him for having the courage to stand there and do it, to entertain us with his fours and sixes even at the risk of losing the big record. He plays not for himself but for the people who worship the game.

Read it all.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Dec 2009 19:32

No dynasty remains in power forever. Even if in formal splendour like the British monarchy. Qualities do not necessarily carry over genetically. And each generation is also getting diluted by new entrants in the gene pool.

If we want a change of leadership to do the required or desired hard aspects of national progress and power projection, there are several ways of getting it done. We cannot do it by simply lambasting this or that individual apparently in key positions now.

If we rely on individuals for changes, then such individuals will always be subject to manipulation. To keep the leadership on the stright track, there needs to be an active mass movement that keeps the leash on the leaders. We have to understand that a lot of the social values which become politically important (leaders have to compromise with social expectations) have been altered or removed from social psyche. These have to be reimplanted socially. If the temple building is a desired objective, it has to become a part of the greater acceptance of a "revival" as a necessary social "value" in a wide section of the population. This means pride in the "identity" which sees such revival as a necessary value.

Instead of hoping for the leaders to change society, it should be looked at the other way around - where a group or collection of individuals decide to enact or carry out certain values on their own. Not affected by whether others are doing the same or not. If those values have merit, sooner or later others who are less self-confident to start on such individual initiatives will gain confidence. Each member of such a collection will act as a seed crystal drawing growing crystals around themselves.

The key to change is a new mass movement based on a pride in a sense of identity that sees what is currently going on as wrong or unacceptable.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Dec 2009 19:50

Hari Seldon ji,
I am not sure that the network of interests that has relied on the creation of an apparatus of personal power to satisfy their own needs - will find RG to be the best possible candidate. PVG could turn out to be the better choice.

But the family has shown themselves to be solidly "psec" in their various media exposures. If they do not change opportunistically like IG did on questions of identity, they stand the risk of becoming irrelevant.

I know many here are perhaps taken in by the media impressions that "Hindu" society is not interested in "identity" issues. Some perhaps even claim based on their limited social networks that unlike the "NRI"'s who are roundly abused and lambasted for being out of touch with "ground realities" - they definitely "know" that "revival" is far from "Hindu" minds. In India, even those residing on spot are unlikely to have a very society-wide intimate penetration at all levels of "society". Most of these impressions are a mixture of limited contacts with people of the same mentality or similar social subgroups who are all in turn subject to large doses of media propaganda.

Identity politics and political consciousness is tricky business. Frustration and mismatch of social expectations can very well turn to search for a new pride in "identity". I am not quite sure that RG is up to it. PVG is the person to watch out.

But thinsg can change drastically in 20 years.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Dec 2009 23:28

Chiron wrote:
For some reasons, she entered national political scene.
Hence she was urged to enter active politics. Why did Sonia Gandhi accept this offer is the biggest enigma. Without this support and insurance, she would never have entered the power-mess of Indian politics which was experiencing a major shift away from INC and towards BJP and Hindutva.

Once she entered the political scenario of India, the magic of her dynasty slowly started working.

Good writeup.
Good questions which needs answer.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Dec 2009 23:43

More questions
What is the probability of the Scion of Indian dynasty marrying an Italian au pair girl of 17/18 who could not even speak English in England? He met her when she was waitressing ????

I am not denying that anything can happen. Hell, he could get married to martian. However, what is the probability of something like this happening? When I look at the history of international intermixed marriages, atleast language is a mode of communication. Such people do not even move in the same circles and I refuse to believe it was a grand love at first sight affair.

Some international intermixing

- Jeb Bush (married to Mexican); Jeb converted to catholicism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columba_Bush
- King of Jordan - Noor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Noor_of_Jordan
- Sarkozy -- I don't think that counts
-
-

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Dec 2009 23:50

Acharya wrote:
Chiron wrote:
For some reasons, she entered national political scene.
Hence she was urged to enter active politics. Why did Sonia Gandhi accept this offer is the biggest enigma. Without this support and insurance, she would never have entered the power-mess of Indian politics which was experiencing a major shift away from INC and towards BJP and Hindutva.

Once she entered the political scenario of India, the magic of her dynasty slowly started working.
Good writeup.
Good questions which needs answer.

A couple of thoughts

- She was requested to enter by certain external powers
- She realized that her family would be forever shut off if move time was allowed to elapse
- Risk of disclosure not just of immediate family but extended family, friends (Quat) and factions - Bofors, Swiss Bank

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Dec 2009 23:58

Have you considered the possibility that it was (and still is) our unhealthy obsession with the Nehru-Gandhi family which brought this upon us? This "external power" business couldn't be more ridiculous.

Chiron wrote:
For some reasons, she entered national political scene.
Hence she was urged to enter active politics. Why did Sonia Gandhi accept this offer is the biggest enigma. Without this support and insurance, she would never have entered the power-mess of Indian politics which was experiencing a major shift away from INC and towards BJP and Hindutva.

Once she entered the political scenario of India, the magic of her dynasty slowly started working.

She chose to accept that offer because everyone likes to be in power, and she had partially tasted it when her husband was the PM. She knew that the stupid Indian populace always goes ga-ga whenever the gandhi name is mentioned and she and her party exploited that.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 07 Dec 2009 00:07

It is important to explore all angles... Just because it sounds like a CT, one should dismiss something.
Unlike Pakees we have to assess these theories in a detached and sound manners with all facts assembled. Not accept something because it aligns with our biases. That is the key difference. But let us not close our minds
Also, in the 40's, 50's am sure pple thought that Nehrus affair with Edwina was a conspiracy theory too

Also, need to know key influencers in their polity and what their goals and objectives are.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 07 Dec 2009 01:04

Jarita,
FYI the current King of Jordan is half English. He spent a good part of life growing up with his mom's family after his parents split up. Probably his long exposure to English upbringing was the reason for a long time the late King Hussein had his brother as heir to the throne. Only late in his life did he change the succession line to have his son as his heir. Palace rumor is that his brother's Pakistani wife was/is too ambitious to his taste.

The former Queen Noor is Arabic. Formerly known as Lisa Halaby, she is of Lebanese descent and spent a good part of her life exposed to Arabic culture including working stint in the Middle East. This could also be construed as "does not matter" as in the Sarkozy/Mrs Sarkozy pairing.
Avram

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 07 Dec 2009 01:49

asprinzl wrote:Jarita,
FYI the current King of Jordan is half English. He spent a good part of life growing up with his mom's family after his parents split up. Probably his long exposure to English upbringing was the reason for a long time the late King Hussein had his brother as heir to the throne. Only late in his life did he change the succession line to have his son as his heir. Palace rumor is that his brother's Pakistani wife was/is too ambitious to his taste.

The former Queen Noor is Arabic. Formerly known as Lisa Halaby, she is of Lebanese descent and spent a good part of her life exposed to Arabic culture including working stint in the Middle East. This could also be construed as "does not matter" as in the Sarkozy/Mrs Sarkozy pairing.
Avram

Lisa halaby is 1/4th or 1/8th lebanese. She had to convert to Islam to marry Hussein. Lisa Halaby had substantial influence over Hussein.
Noor was born Lisa Najeeb Halaby. She is the daughter of Najeeb Halaby and Doris Carlquist. Her father was an aviator, airline executive and government official. He served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense in the Truman administration, before being appointed by Lyndon Johnson to head the Federal Aviation Administration. Najeeb Halaby also had a successful private-sector career, serving as CEO of Pan American World Airways from 1969 to 1972. The Halabys had two children in addition to Lisa: a son, Christian, and another daughter, Alexa. They divorced in 1977.

The real reason for Hassan being dethroned was that Hussein wanted Hamzah (son of Noor) to become king. However since Hamzah is 4th in line, it would not be possible. Hence he extracted a promise from Abdullah that Hamzah would be Abdullahs successor. And Hamzah was crown prince for a while. However, recently Abdullah has taken away title from Hamzah and declared his own son successor. So Noor is out of the scene. It reads like a total soap Opera.
A little more abt Noor
Queen Noor is actively involved in a number of international organizations advancing global peace-building and conflict recovery. She is a founding leader of Global Zero, an international effort to eliminate nuclear weapons worldwide, an Advisor to the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, Seeds of Peace, Council of Women World Leaders, Women Waging Peace, and the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, and International Patron and Honorary Chair of Survivor Corps.

OT, There were rumblings that people did not want a queen from the Indian subcontinent - Princess Sarvath (the lady you refer to). In the totem pole a westerner was pref. to the 2nd tier Muslims

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Dec 2009 03:32

What is done, is done. We cannot reverse the reality of RG senior marrying SG. Even the paranoid genius of an IG did not think it necessary/feasible to reject her. Out of all possible people, I would consider IG most likely to be aware of any possible international "machinations" behind the "placement" of SG.

Even if there is substance to the "stories", making her a target is tactically futile. We may very well need to pool up people from both the Congress and the BJP in the future. The process of negotiating a transition of leadership from the "pure" dynastic to a managed transformation can be smoother if a route for honourable retreat is left open for royalty.

The path of Chankyan minimum resistance. If possible.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Dec 2009 03:43

gandharva wrote

With the BJP-in-transition debating its dynamics with the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat opened another front on Friday when he said that “partition of the country was not a settled fact” and that the “division of the sub-continent would have to be undone for everyone’s good”.

A statement in the right direction. But that will not translate properly into the "frontal organization". But at least the attempt at boldly taking up the issue is much appreciated. This is leadership material. But what about the image? Mobilization will depend on the image. Why not a "third" face and front that coincides ideologically but strictly independent organizationally?

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 07 Dec 2009 05:22

i think it is time for a new party in india with nationalistic agenda

IRP -- Indian Republican Party -- if i win a lottery, i will definitely start one

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Dec 2009 05:24

There is already a 'Republican party of India' and trust me, you wouldn't associate the term 'nationalist' with any of its leading lights.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 07 Dec 2009 05:35

well we need a new name then. i feel that BJP has lost too much of politcal capital among the middle-class. they have lost too many chances to do the right thing.

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 07 Dec 2009 12:18

Interesting interview of Shashi Tharoor in Pragati.

The capacity to engage Pragati, December 2009

Some points in that interview -

But there is no question that given, just not the size of the country or its resources, but also quite frankly its footprint, we are understaffed. We have a very large number of embassies. We have over 120 embassies and consulates around the world. And many of them are far too thinly staffed. In Africa, I am constantly coming across ambassadors who tell me we have got one IFS–B promotee as a deputy and one attaché. And we are supposed to cope with the rest with local staff. And how on earth can we cope?

The Chinese have got 7-8 times as many as we do. They don’t make the distinction we do between the the IFS, the IFS–B and the support staff. They have just one category of officials whereas we have the top echelon which is just over 600. They have over 5000 overall. Even if we added every driver and messenger, I don’t think, we would get to 5000. Similarly, Brazil, which of course has a population much smaller than us but regionally is often seen as a comparator, has a larger diplomatic service than we do.

The issue of size is also different today than it was three decades ago because we were still a poorer, developing country in those days. Today, we are a country that can afford to have a larger foreign service. Our GDP is four or five times larger than what it was at that time.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 08 Dec 2009 22:59

http://www.telegraphnepal.com/news_det.php?news_id=6768

How will China react to the fresh agreement made in between the Government of Nepal and India that allows the Southern neighbor, China’s arch rival, to construct an Air Base for the Indian Air Force in Surkhet?
The Jana Disha Daily, the Maoists’ Party mouth piece dated December 7, 2009, claims that in the consultative meeting held between the representatives of the Government of India and Nepal, December 4-7, 2009, Kathmandu, the Nepali side has provided a clear go-ahead signal to India to construct the Air-Strip for the Indian Air Force.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Dec 2009 10:13

THE DEFENSIVE MINDSET - What hinders India’s recognition as the sixth nuclear power? - K.P. NAYAR

The biggest obstacle to India’s rise in the 21st century is an Indian mindset. In January 2004, the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government began a diplomatic process with an Indo-US Next Steps in Strategic Partnership to expand bilateral cooperation in the areas of civilian nuclear activities, civilian space programmes and high-technology trade. A follow-up to this was the nuclear deal between the prime minister, Manmohan Singh, and the United State of America’s Republican president, George W. Bush. Logically, the culmination of this process ought to be India’s eventual recognition as a nuclear weapons state.

...
...
“Sir, the Americans have never given enrichment and reprocessing rights to any country which is a non-nuclear weapons state under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. So, we should not expect to get these rights in the 123 Agreement [then being negotiated for implementation of the nuclear deal].” But the foreign secretary told this negotiator, addressing him by his first name, “You are not in these negotiations to tell me what the Americans will not do for us. You are there to convey to the Americans what we want and to tell me how they will do it for us. Your job is to get us what we are seeking.”

Shortly after the foreign secretary’s firm rebuke, another negotiator was publicly asked at a forum in Washington when India and the US would resolve their differences and conclude the 123 Agreement. Without batting an eyelid, in an instant, this negotiator told the questioner that the 123 negotiations would be completed when the Americans agree to what India was seeking. The reply then produced shockwaves within the US state department and sent a clear message that India was unwilling to be pushed around.

...
...
A few decades earlier, India was actually offered membership of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations when the Asean was still in its formative period, but New Delhi decided against accepting the offer. Some of Indira Gandhi’s aides at that time, anticipating what the then prime minister with a radical view of the world would have thought of the offer, persuaded her that it was not worth India’s while to join the Asean, the members of which soon became the “Tiger” economies of Asia while India was left behind.

...
There are other catches, however. All sitting members of the board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency at the time of an amendment conference to the NPT will have to unanimously favour an amendment for it to be passed, according to the provisions of the treaty. And, of course, all the five recognized nuclear weapons states have to agree to let anyone else into their exclusive club. It is pointless, at this stage, to speculate which of the big five countries will agree to an amendment favouring India or otherwise. What the country’s leadership and those entrusted with this historic initiative to draw the final curtain on India’s long nuclear winter need most of all is confidence in themselves and their cause.

In the past, India has lost out on the global stage when those in charge of its foreign and security policies have underestimated their country’s strengths and acted in a defensive or reactive manner. For a change, the country’s top political leadership appears to know what it wants in this instance and it is for those whose job is to implement policies to find a way to move forward, just as the one-time foreign secretary told his reluctant and defensive nuclear negotiator.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 12 Dec 2009 12:10

x-posting from the China thread.

yogi wrote:Ancestors of Chinese came from India: Study

From the article posted by Yogi

The study contradicts earlier findings that humans directly went to East Asia from Africa. The study found remarkable similarities between the Dravidian population of south India and specific populations in Malaysia and Singapore. More interestingly, north Indians and Dravidians, too, were found to be genetically connected — meaning there are similarities in their gene structures.

What rubbish! It burns me up every time I read or listen to an Indian speak about Dravidians and Aryans!

We will never get rid of the Colonial hangover.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 12 Dec 2009 12:33

I am no expert on genetics, but then I always wondered if we Indians were genetically same, then why the disparity in features, skin colour, eyes etc amongst the various regions?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Dec 2009 12:51

RayC wrote:I am no expert on genetics, but then I always wondered if we Indians were genetically same, then why the disparity in features, skin colour, eyes etc amongst the various regions?

sir all caucasians are supposed to be genetically same but isn't there wide differences in complexion, eye colour and most of all hair depending mostly upon geography?
in fact the variation is much more than what is seen in India.

why should Indians be any different than the worldwide norm ?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 12 Dec 2009 13:12

The widely accepted study of Indian genomes has conculded that there is no Aryan-Dravidian divide in India. The R1 haplogroup similarity is present across all 4 corners of the country. We are all of the same stock. The wiki page on research in Indian genes (grrr..they used the term South Asian

) suggests that from Lower Kashmir to Gujarat to Assam to Tamilnadu the genes are all the same. They have not mentioned anything about further north East. I would be interested to see that. I think the slight variation in Kashmir was caused in recent history by intermarriage with the Central Asian populations (inter-Ummah marriages)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rosenberg2007.png

Climactic differences, cultural practices (yes!) and many such other factors have contributed to the variations. For more references and interesting information, I would recommend going through some of the contents in India forum on the topic.

Indians have been classified as Caucasians. I believe Indians are a race by themselves.