Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

[archan]

Sir,

the issue here is not gabbar singh, its my view of indo-israeli relationship that is causing problem here. I am sure there would not have been any problems had I posted only those views that were found to be accepted by moderators. Feel free to ban without hesitation as you said and delete/edit this message, I am not sure I want to be in a forum or an environment where a persons views on a subject would be restricted to only those that are accepted by few in control.

Best Regards to you.

Don't let the door hit you on your musharraf on your way out.

[negi]

There is no point in comparing Israel and India the former has been nurtured and been hand holded by the Allied powers the way it goes about its business in ME is not something which it could have pulled out without Unkil's backing .

GOI's stance on Palestine's cause was correct however by resorting to lowly acts like targeting civilians and taking help of organizations like HAMAS have only weakened their case 'morally' (I used morally for tomorrow if Unkil thinks it is Palestine which has the right to the promised land the right and wrong sides would be swapped ).

[KLNMurthy]

Sir,

the issue here is not gabbar singh, its my view of indo-israeli relationship that is causing problem here. I am sure there would not have been any problems had I posted only those views that were found to be accepted by moderators. Feel free to ban without hesitation as you said and delete/edit this message, I am not sure I want to be in a forum or an environment where a persons views on a subject would be restricted to only those that are accepted by few in control.

Best Regards to you.

The point you may be missing is that this is not the forum for sitting in judgment over Israel or any other country. Nor is it a very Indian thing to do. If we got on a moral high horse about a country's unique environment and system and culture, then we couldn't have been friends with the former Soviet Union for example, or even bend over backwards to be friendly to China or Pakistan (!) even today. Let's not even talk about America which was built by expropriation and exploitation.

Israel and Pakistan may be superficially similar in the sense of being "homelands" for a particular religion, but there is an almost endless list of differences in terms of culture, ecosystem in which they find themselves (was Pakistan ever threatened with extinction--meaning that the already tiny number of Jews in the world would cease to exist--by its neighbors after millions of their people were systematically murdered by a state?) and so on. And Indians and Israelis / Jews usually develop a strong rapport based on shared values, and the trait of low tolerance for cant. There is much to admire in Israel's steadfast national resolve--which cuts across all segments of the political spectrum in that country--that "never again" will they submit to brutality and subjugation.

If we indulge in hit-and-run criticisms of Israel without taking into account all the nuances and complexities, then we would necessarily be aiding and abetting the insane ideology of Pakistan. On the other hand, if we do go to all that trouble to construct a balanced critique, then I would have to ask again, is this the forum for it?

[Surya]

which part of "do not feed a troll" people do not understand??

by quoting a troll you give more coverage.

[Prem]

Between Israel and the Stable to our West , the difference is like that of Horse and Donkey . They both might have four feet but aint same .

[Dhiman]

The point you may be missing is that this is not the forum for sitting in judgment over Israel or any other country. Nor is it a very Indian thing to do. If we got on a moral high horse about a country's unique environment and system and culture, then we couldn't have been friends with the former Soviet Union for example, or even bend over backwards to be friendly to China or Pakistan (!) even today. Let's not even talk about America which was built by expropriation and exploitation.

International relationships based on self-interests of countries are one thing. However, showing solidarity with a country is another thing. If we as Indians start showing solidarity with say countries like Maldives, Mauritius, Brazil, Bhutan, etc, I have absolutely no problem with that. However, if we as Indians start showing solidarity with say Israel, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, etc, then there is something wrong in us, as the policy actions of these states and the things that these states aspire for do not reflect a direction that Indians in general and Indian government in specific would like the world to move in.

Israel and Pakistan may be superficially similar in the sense of being "homelands" for a particular religion, but there is an almost endless list of differences in terms of culture, ecosystem in which they find themselves (was Pakistan ever threatened with extinction--meaning that the already tiny number of Jews in the world would cease to exist--by its neighbors after millions of their people were systematically murdered by a state?) and so on.

Israel is a nuclear armed state with mandatory military service for all its non-arab citizens. On top of this, it is backed up by US which is another nuclear state and the world's only superpower. So if Israel feels that it is under threat of extinction, I shudder to think what the Palestinians feel. This so called existential threat to Israel is an excuse and pure propaganda which aids the Israeli state in its religious desire to create the "promised land" by subjugating and kicking out Palestinians (non jews) who want to assert their legitimate rights to the same piece of land. The more you believe in this propaganda, the worse the situation for common day Palestinian becomes at the ground level.

And Indians and Israelis / Jews usually develop a strong rapport based on shared values, and the trait of low tolerance for cant. There is much to admire in Israel's steadfast national resolve--which cuts across all segments of the political spectrum in that country--that "never again" will they submit to brutality and subjugation.

India has had a long history of invasions and occupation and out of all these invasions and occupations, the Islamic invasions and British occupations more or less continues to be part of the living memory of people. So any personal rapport with Israelis, Iranians, or Palestinians aside, the so-called "shared values" that you talk of are purely a reaction of to negative experiences with Islamic invasions and rule, but not based on the merits.

There is really no "special" shared-values between Indians and Israelis in general that would be demonstrated by the actions that their respective representative governments take and the things that their respective representative governments aspire for.

[putnanja]

So if Israel feels that it is under threat of extinction, I shudder to think what the Palestinians feel. This so called existential threat to Israel is an excuse and pure propaganda which aids the Israeli state in its religious desire to create the "promised land" by subjugating and kicking out Palestinians (non jews) who want to assert their legitimate rights to the same piece of land. The more you believe in this propaganda, the worse the situation for common day Palestinian becomes at the ground level.

Do you have any knowledge of the arab-israeli wars? Why did all the arab countries surrounding Israel gang up and attack Israel? So that is not proof of their existential threat? Or the fact that none of the arab countries recognize Israel?

Have you been to Israel? Have you interacted with Palestinians? Arab Israelis have full freedmon to practise their religion in Isreal and are also elected to the Knesset. I don't know which jihadi propaganda site you get your information from.

[Dhiman]

There is no point in comparing Israel and India the former has been nurtured and been hand holded by the Allied powers the way it goes about its business in ME is not something which it could have pulled out without Unkil's backing .

GOI's stance on Palestine's cause was correct however by resorting to lowly acts like targeting civilians and taking help of organizations like HAMAS have only weakened their case 'morally' (I used morally for tomorrow if Unkil thinks it is Palestine which has the right to the promised land the right and wrong sides would be swapped ).

I couldn't have said it better and to that I want to humbly add that this Abrahamic (Jewish, Islamic, Christian) holy land mess has no bearing, relationship, or any special "shared values" (beyond the universal human values that most people on this planet have some intrinsic sense of) on any cultural, religious, or social issues or conflict that may exist in India. Its best to keep this Abrahamic (as opposed to say Dharmic) holy land mess at a distance and specially no need to show any special "solidarity" or "shared values".

[Surya]

I thought the troll was leaving us. Darn

No such luck

[Rahul M]

International relationships based on self-interests of countries are one thing. However, showing solidarity with a country is another thing. If we as Indians start showing solidarity with say countries like Maldives, Mauritius, Brazil, Bhutan, etc, I have absolutely no problem with that. However, if we as Indians start showing solidarity with say Israel, Iran, North Korea, .............

thank you ! now I don't know what it is you have problem with nor do I much care but what I do have a problem with is people barging in a thread with their pet peeves and derailing it over some 'divine mandate' to educate people. on top of that you display an amazing ignorance/deliberate obfuscation of the issue and attitude that decidedly is not acceptable on BR.
I don't think you are an asset to this forum. mend your ways or move out.
Rahul.

[Karan Dixit]

Happy Hanukkah Folks !

[Dhiman]

thank you ! now I don't know what it is you have problem with nor do I much care but what I do have a problem with is people barging in a thread with their pet peeves and derailing it over some 'divine mandate' to educate people. on top of that you display an amazing ignorance/deliberate obfuscation of the issue and attitude that decidedly is not acceptable on BR.
I don't think you are an asset to this forum. mend your ways or move out.
Rahul.

Whew, for the third time now I am curious, if you find my views and opinion so useless and repulsive why not just ban me and get it over with?

Because there are certain forum regulations that call for a ban only after 3 warnings, out of the idea that people sometime make honest mistakes and can after all improve their posting habits.
clearly such generosity is wasted on you. but cheer up ! your wish has been granted.
Rahul.

-- rest of the yakyaking deleted --

[Dhiman]

A somewhat dated ground level view of indo-Israeli relationship (with no personal comments/highlighting/emphasis) from http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShAr ... &listSrc=Y:

A bad trip in India
By Aryeh Dayan


Here is a popular joke among Israeli backpackers in India: An Indian asks an Israeli backpacker, "So how many Israelis are there?" The backpacker answers "Five million" and the Indian then asks "and how many in Israel?" Daria Maoz, who is writing her doctorate on Israeli backpackers in India, believes the joke increasingly reflects the feelings of Indians in light of the Israeli "invasion" of their country. Some 15 years after Israelis first began traveling en mass to the subcontinent, where they initially received a warm welcome, Maoz's research points to a growing discomfort with the Israeli presence in India. The problem is not the large number of Israelis who travel to India, but their behavior, which the Indians are finding increasingly difficult to bear.

Any talk of an Israeli conquest of India is hardly borne out by the hard facts. The Indian consulate in Tel Aviv issues some 30,000 visas a year to Israeli backpackers and Maoz estimates that a further 20,000 take out visas at the Indian consulates in Thailand and Nepal. "Fifty thousand tourists account for barely 2 percent of the total number of tourists that visit India every year," says Maoz. Indeed, in a giant country that is home to over a billion people it is hard to see how 50,000 people can be considered a threat."

The explanation is simple, says Maoz. The Israeli backpacker population is concentrated in a few small and clearly defined regions. "In some places the Israelis make up 90 percent of the tourist population," she says, "and when hundreds or even thousands of Israelis are concentrated in one village or neighborhood you just can't ignore their very striking presence."

That's what happens in places like Bhagsu and Dharamkot, two not very large villages near Dharamsala, and in Bashisht and Old Manali, two neighborhoods of Manali, which like Dharamsala lies in the north of India. The situation is similar in the south of the country, especially in places like Goa's "Tel Aviv beach"."The Israeli backpackers take over these areas and set up their own colonies," says Maoz. "In the last eight years they've turned those places into Israeli enclaves and in peak seasons they are flooded with thousands of Israeli backpackers. Some of them stay for long periods, even several years. Most of them stay a few weeks or months, but when they leave, other Israelis take their place creating permanent Israeli settlements with transient populations."

Maoz has found that relations between the Israelis and the natives correspond to those anthropologists have found in other Third World countries subject to an influx of large groups of tourists from the West. In a recent lecture at Ben-Gurion University, Maoz defined these relations as "hierarchical, one-sided and depressing". In an interview with Haaretz she described the Israeli backpackers' relations with the native population as "neo-colonial."

According to Maoz, most Israeli backpackers treat the Indians as if their sole purpose in life was to serve them. They ignore the locals' needs and feelings, treat them and their traditions with contempt and regard the Israeli enclaves as playgrounds where they can do almost anything they desire. Uninhibited drug use is a prime example. "I don't think that the Indians will continue to put up with the situation for much longer," warns Maoz. "The hosts and the guests are sitting on a powder keg that could blow up at any moment."

Drugs and spirituality

Daria Maoz's interest in India and Israeli backpackers began several years ago when she was 27. She quit her job as an attorney and enrolled in an MA course at the School of Sociology and Anthropology at Hebrew University of Jerusalem. In her first year, she decided to write a seminar paper on rights of transition in Israeli society. She focused on her peers in their 20s and 30s who are facing "anxiety over a second growing up phase" and decide to change their profession. She discovered that many of them travel to India before choosing a new direction.

Maoz herself only traveled to India for the first time a year later after deciding to write her MA thesis on Israeli backpackers in the subcontinent. Later, she elected to devote her doctorate to the subject and her lecturers advised her to gather her material through "active observation." That meant Maoz had to visit India on two more occasions.

During her first visit, which lasted two and a half months, she spent time with backpackers, staying in the same hostels, eating in the same restaurants, hanging out in the same tea houses, taking part in meditation and yoga lessons, going trekking and observing trance parties with all their drug-taking rituals. That journey, during which she interviewed dozens of backpackers, provided material for her doctoral thesis and inspiration for a novel "India Will Love Me" published in 2002.

Maoz's last visit to India was devoted to interviewing Indians who provide tourist services in the Israeli enclaves. What she found in those enclaves she describes as a complete Israeli takeover of the local culture and space. "When you arrive at the Israeli enclaves in Dharamkot or Manali you feel as if you were in Israel itself," says Maoz. "With the exception of the Indian backdrop, everything there is Israeli. All you hear walking down the street is Hebrew and everyone you meet is Israeli. Even the rickshaws have signs posted in Hebrew advertising trance parties.

"Most of the rickshaw owners don't even know what the signs say. You walk into a restaurant and the menus are in Hebrew and the food is Israeli. At the hostels and guesthouses you can find books in Hebrew and at Internet cafes you can read Israeli websites and send e-mail in Hebrew. Many of the Indians that work with Israeli tourists can speak Hebrew, some of them quite fluently."

Maoz believes the phenomenon creates a neo-colonial situation in the enclaves. The Israeli tourists, she says, reject the local culture, aren't interested in Indian food, in Indian traditions or the local lingo. "The Israelis' supposed interest in Indian spirituality is reflected in conversation among the backpackers, but not in action. Before they even leave Israel they know that `India is spirituality'. Two days after arriving they are already dressed in white and telling each other that the `energy is flowing' that they are living `here and now' and that their `chakras are open'. It's a kind of instant spirituality, a sort of ritual they know they have to go through."

But when it comes down to it, says Maoz, they are a lot more interested in trance parties and smoking drugs then in spiritual practices.

Judaism too sometimes finds its way into the heady mixture of trance, drugs and so-called spirituality. One of the strangest phenomena Maoz came across occurred at the Chabad House in Dharamsala, a center set up by Chabad Hasidim from Israel, which attracts dozens of Israeli backpackers every Shabbat. Maoz visited the Dharamsala Chabad House on Rosh Hashanah and saw hundreds of Israeli backpackers taking part in a prayer service and festive dinner. She also saw how after dinner the backpackers headed off to a nearby site for a trance and drug party that lasted some 42 hours. A week and a half later she met them again at Chabad House where they had come for the pre-fast Yom Kippur meal. After dinner Maoz saw the backpackers pass a joint. They called it the pre-fast joint.

Baksheesh and boycotts

Parties and drugs are two of the main points of friction between the backpackers and the local population. The loud music played at parties that go on till the early hours of the morning, sometimes at guesthouses situated in the middle of a village or residential neighborhood, can be heard everywhere and disturbs the locals. The Israelis' excessive drug use makes their enclaves a magnet for Indian drug dealers and other criminal elements. The locals are at a loss. If they turn to the police, they will lose their livelihood and even if they do complain there is no guarantee anything will be done about it.

One Israeli who organizes trance parties told Maoz that before every party he makes sure to pay baksheesh (tips) to the right people and that keeps the police well away.

Maoz's research dug up other problematic issues that lead to friction between the backpackers and the locals. A restaurant owner in Dharamkot told her of an Israeli who drank five cups of tea, but when asked to pay the bill, which came to some five rupees or half an Israeli shekel, he refused claiming he had only drunk three cups. In the ensuing argument, the Israeli threatened the restaurant owner, telling him that he would organize a boycott of the restaurant. This could be a deathblow in a place so reliant on Israeli tourists. In another case, Israeli backpackers boycotted a guesthouse because the owners asked them to pay for sheets they had torn up. According to Maoz, the backpackers claimed the reason for the boycott was that the German wife of the owner was a `Nazi'.

There are a few Israelis who went to India several years ago and stayed on in each of the Israeli enclaves. Most of them have opened cafes and restaurants or tattoo and piercing parlors that also sell drug paraphernalia. Most of them refuse to serve Indians. The Chabad House is also out of bounds for the locals with the exception of the kitchen workers.

Based on her interviews with dozens of Indians who come into daily contact with Israeli backpackers, Maoz researched the ways the locals choose to cope with the negative phenomena. "Most of them simply bow their heads and put up with the situation," she says. They accept all the Israelis' conditions; they let them post signs without knowing what's written on them; they don't argue when someone refuses to pay and they don't complain to the police when the parties disturb them." The Indians, Maoz says, complain they don't have any choice - without the Israelis' money they wouldn't be able to make a living.

But Maoz also found two small groups that adopted other strategies. One employed what Maoz called `hidden resistance', using the Israeli presence to gain money and power. This group, Maoz says, is made up primarily of Indians who arrive from areas outside the Israeli enclaves and pass themselves off as spiritual teachers. "The Israelis are looking for spirituality," one such spiritual guru, who worked as a schoolteacher in his home town, told Maoz, " so we sell them spirituality." Maoz says that during the peak seasons, Indians flow to the Israeli enclaves selling themselves as masters and babas (holy men), teaching Reiki, yoga, meditation and anything else Israelis care to learn.

The other group uses what Maoz calls "open resistance." Some of them try to educate the Israelis in various ways such as hanging signs in their shops saying "Respect us and we will respect you." Others hint that they don't want to serve Israelis by putting up signs saying "no drugs" and a few have even gone so far as to declare "No Israelis served here."

One of the main findings of Maoz's research is that Israeli society has an interest in sending its young people to India. "Israeli society understands that after long, hard and frustrating military service and before integrating into society, Israeli youngsters need avenues to let off steam and to challenge accepted norms. Instead of having them do this it in Israel, they are sent to India."

If Maoz's findings are right, then sooner or later the Indians' patience will wear thin. Here and there, Maoz says, there have already been the occasional clashes between Indians and Israelis. "The Israelis in India increasingly permit themselves to do whatever they feel like, while the Indians are forced to show an ever greater degree of restraint. But under the surface tensions are brewing and I believe that the moment will come when more and more Indians will decide that financial profits just aren't worth their continued self-constraint. Eventually, they will react in the same way as the Palestinians in 1987 when the intifada broke out."

Maoz's use of the intifada as a metaphor for the situation is far from coincidental. During her visits to India she heard several Israelis compare the Indians to the Palestinians before the intifada. "They're primitive and dirty, but they serve us exceptionally well," one Israeli backpacker told Maoz, "just like the Arabs in the territories before they decided to raise their heads.

[negi]

Dhiman I am afraid above article points to nothing as far as Indo-Israeli relations are concerned. Imho an avergae Indian should be happy for the increased tourist influx , now if it is the misuse of the tourist Visa or illegal overstaying by the visitors which troubles you then it is not something specific to Israel .

[archan]

I think the Bengal Breaper got to him. So don't hold your breath for a quick response.

[Rony]

I can personally testify that the Israeli tourists in India are one of the worst kind of tourists you can find anywhere.India would be better off without some of those arrogant and disrespecful "tourists". You just have to talk with them for 30 minutes and your views about Israeli's will change for the worst forever inspite of all the good state to state relations between India and Isreal.Those tourists dont see any difference between the palestinans they encounter in west bank and the Indians they encounter in Manali.I dont know if Dhiman had the same kind of expereince with Israeli tourists.If yes, i dont blame him (although i dont agree with him) for comparing pakistan to Israel just like the isreali's compare Indians with palestinians. Having said that, we need to understand that the Isreali "tourists" in India dont necessarily represent the majority of israeli public attitudes towards Indians or at least i hope so.

[bart]

Rony is quite right, and I have heard locals mention that certain public places like sections of the beach are taken over by Israelis and are off-limits for others, whether tourists from other countries or Indian.

Common interests and strategic ties notwithstanding, some things are simply not acceptable.

In fact a lot of older Israelis have the same opinion of many of the unruly teenage backpackers and have made a concerted effort to try and curb it. So it's not an India vs Israel thing, I think everybody has a vested interest in making sure youngsters behave appropriately.

[Rahul M]

it's more of a local law and order issue than an international relations one and is better discussed in those threads. nigerians for example run a large part of international drug trade that happens in India, that does not mean it is automatically an India nigeria issue.

[hasmukh]

And half of the members here love Israel without having met single Israeli, I have met some of them only to be told "eh you guys like arabs hehe". The thing is that one should support the good Indo-Israel relations but never get sentimental about the relationship. All the people of book are of same kind with one being more worse than other, Indic races should let them fight each other and should not take any sides. As for Jews, joke goes they cause more trouble in the banks than in Palestine or for that matter in India.

[Surya]

hasmukh

have you been to Israel??

Been there 6 times and never heard a comparison to Arabs.

you may have heard from some juveniles who have come off army duty

I have posted my travels there - somewhere in the archives.

take a look

till then stop generalising

[asprinzl]

I think the problems with the Israeli tourists should not be waved away as a local law and order problem and swept under the carpet. The people concerned should nip the bud right now when it is small instead of scratching their heads when it becomes bigger in the long run. There has to be a serious cooperation between Israeli and Indian authorities regarding this. Right now it may be a minor social problem laced with small petty crimes here and there.

What happens when people either Israeli and or Indian end up dead? What happens when the drug situation gets bigger and Russian-Israeli underworld figures get into the action? As is, at present these elements have a terrible effect in Israel, Eastern Europe, Ukraine, Russia etc involving drugs, money laundering, trafficking in women for prostitutions, weapons etc. Once underworld elements get into the action, there will be no going back as all kinds of corruptions will seep in. It won't be long for the Mumbai underworld and the Russian-Israeli underworld start cooperating. Once this happens the trail of trouble will extend from Goa to Mumbai to Dubai to Israel to Cyprus to Brussels, Rotherdam, Warsaw, Moscow, Kiev and Brooklyn.

Its about time the officials open their eyes.

Avram

[Sanku]

I have not been to Israel, I have been to the (periphery of) the Israeli enclaves in India; a lot of things in the article are true. Yet, there is tremendous, hidden and open resistance already in place, and of course there are mitigating circumstances.

For one the problem is truly localized, really really localized. For example even in Manali-Dharmshala area, the Israeli areas are so small and so isolated that a majority of Indian locals can pass by and not notice it (except those who truly live in that area)

Secondly, the matter is always handled in the Indian way by the police clearly forming a laxman-rehka around the enclave. There are unwritten rules, dont mess outside and we wont come in and mess inside. A free-port without hassels of legislation

Thirdly in all the R&D of the neo-colonialism, there is no force component that the Israelis can bring to bear in real sense, in fact outside of the the enclaves they are still quite vulnerable and since they dont paradrop into these they always have to be careful.

Finally, if it was I, given the various histories of Jews in India and elsewhere, I would say that in the above scenario, the Israeli should worry more since he is in a "ghetto" for all practical purposes and ghettos dont have a nice connotation for them. Indians on the other hand are quite used to handling local concentration of a particular ethnicity or cultural practice.

Heck I saw the above being done by the TFTA Tams to SDRE Tams in fishing village areas in coastal TN (and no daleet angle no saar)

[rsingh]

The infamous Arbeit Macht Frei sign at the entrance to the Auschwitz Nazi death camp in Poland has been stolen.

The wrought iron sign, whose words mean "Work Sets You Free", was unscrewed and pulled down from its position above the gate in the early hours of Friday.

Polish authorities denounced the theft, while Israel's Holocaust museum branded it an "act of war".

More than a million people - 90% of them Jews - were murdered by the Nazis at Auschwitz during World War II.

Investigators say at least two people would have been needed to steal the five-metre-long (16ft), 40kg (90lb) sign.

The theft occurred between 0330 and 0500 local time on Friday, police spokeswoman Katarzyna Padlo told AP news agency.

Why would somebody do this. It is not for collection.I am afraid that some spectacular attack is planned for Jews. Could be new year parties or some event frequented by jews in Poland or Russia. I know it is twisted logic but with Baki IT expert shitting around everything is possible.

[Rudradev]

thank you ! now I don't know what it is you have problem with nor do I much care but what I do have a problem with is people barging in a thread with their pet peeves and derailing it over some 'divine mandate' to educate people. on top of that you display an amazing ignorance/deliberate obfuscation of the issue and attitude that decidedly is not acceptable on BR.
I don't think you are an asset to this forum. mend your ways or move out.
Rahul.

Whew, for the third time now I am curious, if you find my views and opinion so useless and repulsive why not just ban me and get it over with?

Because there are certain forum regulations that call for a ban only after 3 warnings, out of the idea that people sometime make honest mistakes and can after all improve their posting habits.
clearly such generosity is wasted on you. but cheer up ! your wish has been granted.
Rahul.

-- rest of the yakyaking deleted --

Honestly, I don't think any of Dhiman's posts on this thread merited a ban. What did he do? Criticize Israel? Since when is that against the rules here?

As far as I can see, Dhiman has not engaged in trollish behaviour. He has not called people names or made ad-hominem attacks (such as those opposed to him have certainly made against him). Some pro-Israel posters have responded to his criticism of Israel with great emotion, and flamed him... but that is an issue of their indiscipline, not of his so-called "trolling". Surely the onus is upon them to keep their emotions in check, and answer his statements with logical refutations if they can. Otherwise, aren't they equally liable for a ban/warning?

This is an Indian forum, and while defaming India should understandably be regarded as deliberate incitement of flamewars, I see no reason why criticizing Israel should be similarly prohibited... or the sensitivities of pro-Israel posters be protected as sacrosanct.

[Rahul M]

Honestly, I don't think any of Dhiman's posts on this thread merited a ban. What did he do? Criticize Israel? Since when is that against the rules here?

RD ji, may I know why you are 'imagining' some reason when the actual reason has been already given above in the post edits ?
I've no problems with posts criticizing israel (or even India for that matter) provided it is backed up by facts and logic.
at least, that's BR for me.

As far as I can see, Dhiman has not engaged in trollish behaviour.

which is correct, because you cannot 'see' the trollish content anymore.those posts have been edited.
you were not there when the 'trolling' happened, so this taking a strong stand without knowing what happened is not justified IMO.

Note : if you have problems with my moderation you are free to approach any other mod or the site owner. in case you have a reply I would appreciate if you can put it in forum feedback thread, I'll do likewise then.

[Rudradev]

Have replied in the Forum Feedback thread as requested.

[rsingh]

Any news about plot to kidnap Israeli ministers on aljazeera arabic? I am told that there is something on Arabic version. Could be joke.............but guy who told me was serious

[Karan Dixit]

NEW DELHI: India and Israel will hold a joint working group (JWG) meeting on defence on Tuesday to review ongoing cooperation in military R&D
projects, counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing as well as chalk out new areas for collaboration.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 364517.cms

[Gerard]

European funding of Israeli NGOs isn't meddling

The EU's funding of NGOs in Israel does not constitute meddling in Israeli political affairs, and the EU hopes the government will not place restrictions on outside funding of these groups, the EU's new ambassador to Israel told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"There is a certain perception in Israeli society that what we are financing in Israel and in this region is unique, and that these are programs aimed at influencing public policy in Israel," Andrew Standley said. "The reality is that these are global programs, and the kind of actions that we are supporting in Israel can and are just as easily funded in places like China, India, Indonesia and even the US."

[Karan Dixit]

At a time when the US, the UK, Canada and Australia have told their citizens that India is facing a severe terrorist threat, Tel Aviv, has given its citizens the green signal to visit India.

The Bureau of Counter Terrorism in Israel’s National Security Council, an agency that reports directly to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, has declared India safe for its citizens to tour.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/rssfeed/n ... 92556.aspx

[sunnyP]

At a time when the US, the UK, Canada and Australia have told their citizens that India is facing a severe terrorist threat, Tel Aviv, has given its citizens the green signal to visit India.

The Bureau of Counter Terrorism in Israel’s National Security Council, an agency that reports directly to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, has declared India safe for its citizens to tour.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/rssfeed/n ... 92556.aspx

Quite a symbolic move indeed.

Yet India still voted in the UN to back the Goldstone report

[JE Menon]

We do what we have to do. They understand. They do what they have to do. We understand. There might occasionally be a sour taste in the mouth, for both parties, when they sometimes do what they have to do and they know the other won't like it. But both sides swallow and move on. There is a good, stable relationship. There are no fundamental reasons for a fu(k-up visible on the horizon.

[shyamd]

I dont think there is a political angle to this. Israel wasnt being tipped off by western intel on indian terror alerts and the current threat is probably not related to jewish interests in India. Its the Counter terror bureau's job to ensure the safety of Israeli lives. I am sure they would have continued the alert if the threat still existed.

It can also mean that Israel doesnt read too much into the current threat (Israel knows something that the US doesn't - its happened many times before).

[Karan Dixit]

“The greening of the Negev desert, an ‘agricultural miracle’, is a model waiting to be replicated in Thar,” pioneering Israeli agriculturist of Indian origin, Eliahu Bezalel, told HT. Bezalel’s technologies are currently being tried at an Alphonso orchard in Kerala.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/rssfeed/i ... 93508.aspx

[Sadler]

We do what we have to do. They understand. They do what they have to do. We understand. There might occasionally be a sour taste in the mouth, for both parties, when they sometimes do what they have to do and they know the other won't like it. But both sides swallow and move on. There is a good, stable relationship. There are no fundamental reasons for a fu(k-up visible on the horizon.

Well said. Shalom.

[Viv S]

I used to be a pretty strong supporter of Israel, until its actions around the turn of last year. The idiocy and pointlessness of its bombing campaign was mind boggling. In one swoop it managed to undo diplomatic gains made over decades, tarnish its image globally, make a host of enemies, and alienate vast sections in allied and friendly countries. Reeks of be a survivalist mindset and lacks any long-term planning or outlook.

All the same, strong Indo-Israel relations remain a good idea though lets keep it at a politico-military level and downplay it publicly.

[S.Gautam]

I used to be a pretty strong supporter of Israel, until its actions around the turn of last year. The idiocy and pointlessness of its bombing campaign was mind boggling. In one swoop it managed to undo diplomatic gains made over decades, tarnish its image globally, make a host of enemies, and alienate vast sections in allied and friendly countries. Reeks of be a survivalist mindset and lacks any long-term planning or outlook.

All the same, strong Indo-Israel relations remain a good idea though lets keep it at a politico-military level and downplay it publicly.

700 militants killed with the loss of 10 of its own soldiers. Yeah. Idiotic and pointless.

When was this mythic age when Israel had a good image? It surely wasn't during the time right before Cast Lead. The world hated Israel then and merely became slightly more noisy about said hatred during the news cycles covering the events. Afterwards it cooled down to equilibrium bitching & whining levels.

[Viv S]

700 militants killed with the loss of 10 of its own soldiers. Yeah. Idiotic and pointless.

700 militants is the figure Israeli Defence Forces put forward. They were 'off-the-mark' about the civilian casualties by about 300%. Well over 800 civilians dead including 300 children. That's not the kind of figure you brush off as collateral damage. The most amazing part; all done under the public eye, covered live by the international media ... may as well have issued a press release stating 'we don't give a s###'.

For all its perceived weaknesses India has been able to spur a favourable global view and isolate Pakistan diplomatically. And more importantly has been able to win hearts and minds within an hostile population in Kashmir.

When was this mythic age when Israel had a good image? It surely wasn't during the time right before Cast Lead. The world hated Israel then and merely became slightly more noisy about said hatred during the news cycles covering the events. Afterwards it cooled down to equilibrium bitching & whining levels.

Can you blame them?

Well, perhaps Israelis have reconciled themselves with the eventuality that their grandchildren will be fighting the same war, the present generation's grandfathers fought.

[S.Gautam]

700 militants is the figure Israeli Defence Forces put forward. They were 'off-the-mark' about the civilian casualties by about 300%. Well over 800 civilians dead including 300 children. That's not the kind of figure you brush off as collateral damage.

I'll take Israeli figures over Palestinians ones, thanks.

For all its perceived weaknesses India has been able to spur a favourable global view and isolate Pakistan diplomatically. And more importantly has been able to win hearts and minds within an hostile population in Kashmir.

1) India doesn't have a favourable image in the world. Not. Even. Close. Fortunately, though, we are almost always being ignored (a very good thing) because everyone is focused on China and Islamic countries at the moment. Which parallel world are you referring to?
2) Pakis isolated themselves through their own stupidity. If we were facing half-way intelligent enemies, we would be the ones isolated, and to a large degree, we are. Insha'Allah, Pakis will continue with their short-sightedness because we certainly can't count on any Chankianess from GoI.
3) Won hearts and minds in Kashmir? Which Kashmir is this? I assume it's the one in the parallel world you referred to earlier. My world's Kashmir has regular chants about azaadi and occasionally erupts about something or the other. We have decades to wait out (for economic growth as well as for present generations to die off) before lasting favorable opinion of India is formed in the valley.

Can you blame them?

But where does that leave your claim of Israel destroying this fabulous golden age of positive perceptions which it had pre-Cast Lead?

[JE Menon]

>>The idiocy and pointlessness of its bombing campaign was mind boggling.

Well this is a matter subject to some debate. I'm not so sure it was pointless, although the scale of it was indeed mind-boggling. What is quite noteworthy IMHO is the effectiveness of the targeting (of course, I'm not saying there was no collateral damage). But the targets they chose were (largely) those they hit. To appreciate this, one must undertake a visit to Beirut. The Shiite suburb of Dahiye still sees the infrastructural damage, and it is a daily reminder of the price to be paid. And even the areas IMMEDIATELY around it are untouched. The difference is noticeable as soon as you enter Dahiye.

And precisely because of the mind-boggling scale, Hizbollah will certainly pause for thought before trying anything like that again. They got some temporary PR gains, but that was it. Local politics in Beirut is local politics. What Hizbollah gained from their PR success is questionable. In fact, in psyops terms, it probably worked against them with all but their specific constituents - this is my assessment based on extensive interactions with locals in-country.

Finally, our situation in Kashmir and their situation is hardly comparable. And reams have been written on BR on just this topic. For starters, the population of Israel proper is about half of that of Kashmir, and secondly the objective of their adversaries is to wipe out the nation, push them into the sea so to speak, and this is declared. There has been no formal reversal on that position, although there have been suggestions from the same adversaries that this posture need not be taken literally. So their survivalist mindset is not entirely groundless. Nor is it clear that they lack any long-term planning or outlook. It may simply be that they have chosen not to articulate their long-term outlook.

>>strong Indo-Israel relations remain a good idea though lets keep it at a politico-military level and downplay it publicly.

Again, while the idea of not publicising it jingoistically is sound, there is no reason why we should be any less forthright about our relationship with Israel than, say, the US, Russia or China is. All of them have good relationships with Israel and make no effort to "hide" it. There is no need to have undue concern over third-party senstivities.

Furthermore, why should we limit it to politico-military level? Socio-economic interaction may prove to be even more beneficial in years to come, with co-operation in business and high-tech non-military business opportunities in particular a focal point. A normal relationship with Israel across all fronts, while maintaining overall prudence, is absolutely the way to go IMHO.

And I am fairly certain that is the way we will go.