Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 03 Feb 2010 11:01

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 03 Feb 2010 11:14

harbans wrote:I feel so disgusted by this headline news in TOIlet..i cringe in shame.

US-gives-India-policing-power-in-the-Indian-Ocean

When will these 'Aman ke Tamashe' waale learn?

This is not about Jingoism, this is about reality. The truth. They seem to think reality and truth does not matter, but some form of appeasing does. This is sick. Nowhere does the US give that. Nowhere the US claims it's shedding a responsibility. And importantly nowhere will anyone like this header. Including India. Except the feudal pseudo secular brigade. They feel they placate. Placation laced with untruth and exaggeration is what Indians like (they feel). I hate this crap..

This is very poorly framed headline , it was only a US report which mentioned that as India gets more assertive , it's naval forces will look to assert greater influence in IOR . These ToI-let fols make it sound as if Unkil is the nig daddy which has just raised our Pocket money.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 03 Feb 2010 12:44

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -dir-qs-01

If the ones reporting news become news themselves, who will report the news on the newsmen becoming news - some other newsmen who have not become news yet.

IED mubarak TSP

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2010 13:12

Zardari may weather NRO, but instability continues - Nirupama Subramanian in The Hindu
Excerpts

Zardari opponents who had pinned their hopes on a Gilani-led rebellion within the PPP are slowly realising that the Prime Minister is not prepared to play such a role. In fact, the political uncertainty seems to have only nudged the two together and the tensions between them of a few months ago are no longer that apparent.

But there is a growing sentiment that the judiciary could be overplaying its hand. If anything, the controversy over the appointments, in which both case law and precedent seem to be on Mr. Zardari’s side, has taken a bit of the shine off the judiciary.{This is a reference to the CJP recommending the second-senior most Judge of the Punjab High Court for elevation to the SC which is disliked by Zardari who wants the senior-most judge instead}

But how far the judiciary is prepared to go will become clearer in the coming days when it will be called to decide on whether Mr. Zardari is a good Muslim — something it has already held to be undeterminable in a previous judgment —and on the nature and scope of his immunity.{This is a reference to a case filed in the SC to disqualify Zardari on the basis of Article 62 whose clauses are as follows: (d) he is of good character and is not commonly known as one who violates Islamic Injunctions; (e) he has adequate knowledge of Islamic teachings and practises obligatory duties prescribed by Islam as well as abstains from major sins ; (f) he is sagacious, righteous and non-profligate and honest and ameen;}

Mr Sharif mainly wants the PPP leader to give up certain powers that he inherited from the Musharraf presidency, and the lifting of the two-term limit for Prime Ministers, something of direct importance to him. There are indications that Mr. Zardari may be prepared to arrive at some compromise on this, even if he does it just to continue in office. {Zardari has already hinted his approval for this}

Much will also depend on how the Pakistan Army chooses to play its cards. Some Zardari opponents are asking it to play a role by pressuring the government to implement the NRO verdict against Mr. Zardari.{All the political parties, in spite of their strident demand for democracy, have, at various times sought the Army's help in settling political scores. There is no exception to this in Pakistan. At times, they have asked the army to even mount a coup and seize power}

But an important date lies ahead — the expiry of General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani’s term as Army chief in November this year. The government has to soon start applying its mind to this issue. As of now, the power to appoint a successor rests with President Zardari. It is not clear if General Kayani wants an extension, or not. Even if Mr. Zardari succeeds in weathering the present crisis, it is this that may turn out to his real minefield.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2010 13:27

Big Jump in US aid to Pakistan

The US never learns the lesson as far as Pakistan goes. The US funding directly & indirectly supports terrorism against India.

U.S. President Barack Obama has proposed $3.2 billion in assistance to Pakistan in the fiscal 2011, a substantial jump in American aid. . . . in 2010 it had been $1.88 billion.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2010 13:59

Dr. Copy Cat's random thoughts, this time on some disastrous mistakes.

In 1666 Shivaji presented himself in the court of Aurangzeb and requested a 7,000 (Haft Hazari) rupees worth of Jagir. Aurangzeb arrogantly rejected the request and offered him a 5,000 rupees Jagir instead. When Shivaji objected, he was thrown into prison. He managed to escape by hiding under clothes in a bullock cart and later inflicted enormous damage to the Mogul dynasty, defeating the Mogul navy for the first time in 1664. In 1672 the Moguls were openly defeated at the hands of Shivaji, which shook the very foundations of the Mogul dynasty. Aurangzeb's blunder in not granting a favour to Shiraji led to the weakening and ultimate disintegration of the Mogul Empire. Had he agreed to grant that small favour, the Marhatas would not have found a good leader and would have dispersed.

The first major mistake in the history of Pakistan was made by Governor General Khwaja Nazimuddin, when he stepped down to become prime minister after the assassination of Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, making the intriguer Ghulam Mohammad governor general in his place. The result was disastrous for Pakistan. Ghulam Mohammad dismissed Khwaja Nazimuudin, dissolved the Constituent Assembly and sowed the seeds for the later disintegration of Pakistan.

Later on, President Iskander Mirza blundered by appointing Ayub Khan as chief martial law administrator. Within weeks Ayub removed Iskander Mirza and banished him to England without a penny. Qudratullah Shahab has written about this in detail in his autobiography Shahab Nama. In London Iskander Mirza worked as a manager in a small hotel and died a dejected person.

In 1962, the war between India and China erupted in Assam. Ayub Khan, under pressure from America, convinced India that it could use all its forces without fear of any action by Pakistan in Kashmir. After the Western countries had armed India with all the latest weapons and technology, Ayub undertook his misadventure against Kashmir in 1965. Thanks only to the intervention of the West, we were saved from losing Kashmir and Lahore.

After Ayub Khan, Gen Yahya Khan took over. Fair and free elections were held, but the results were not accepted. The subsequent army action resulted in the deaths of thousands of armed forces personnel and civilians, an ignominious defeat and surrender and imprisonment of about 92,000 soldiers and civilians.

Initially, when he first came to power, Mr Bhutto did many good things for the country and the people of Pakistan. However, sycophants put him on a wrong course and turned him into an arrogant ruler. His blunder of appointing Gen Zia as army chief resulted in his overthrow and hanging and led to the worst dictatorial rule in Pakistan. Had Mr Bhutto followed honest procedures in both elections and appointments, Pakistan would have been in a different position today.

Not having learnt from history, Nawaz Sharif listened to his sycophants and unwise advisors and appointed the overambitious Gen Musharraf as army chief, superseding many others. He paid heavily for his blunder. He was lucky not to have met the same fate as Mr Bhutto's, thanks to the intervention of the Saudi king. Gen Musharraf had been ready to stage a coup by June 1999, but could not do so due to US intervention. The so-called aeroplane incident gave him the excuse he needed. Musharraf's "blunders" were not unintentional – they were well calculated to facilitate his becoming an absolute ruler and to prolong his stay in power.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2010 14:09

Shamshad Ahmed, former Foreign Secretary of TSP, says it as it is

Pakistan was orphaned in infancy and lost the promise of a healthy youth with acute systemic deficiencies and normative perversities restricting its orderly natural growth.

The real Pakistan disappeared with its tragic dismemberment, and whatever was left is now hanging on a slender thread of just one slogan, "Pakistan khappay." What a shame for a nation to be treated like dirt.

No wonder, the world now calls us the "most violent and most unsafe" country in the world and also the "most dangerous nation" on earth.

Terrorism is our sole identity now. We are seen both as the problem and the key to its solution. Whether we accept it or not, our recognition in the comity of nations today is only as a "breeding ground" for religious extremism and as a country afflicted with a culture of violence and corruption. Pakistan's name instantly raises fear and concern. And yet we feel insulted at being included in exclusive lists for special security-related body scan procedures.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 03 Feb 2010 14:15

The US never learns the lesson as far as Pakistan goes. The US funding directly & indirectly supports terrorism against India.

US props up Pakistan precisely because it commits terrorist attacks against India. If Pakistan stops being a threat to INdia, it is of absolutely no use to the US. This is the same strategy which makes US support Taiwan against China. It is a deliberate, well thought out strategy. There is no need for the US to "learn the lesson." The Goras know very well what they are doing. The real objective is not to allow India become too big for its boots. One or two thorns in India's side always help.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Feb 2010 14:20

B. Raman tweets

Rumours of Hakimullah's death in a drone strike earlier this month persist, but denied by Pak Taliban.
9:47 AM Jan 31st from web
Pak Taliban has been unusually quiet for over two weeks now.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2010 14:59

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
The US never learns the lesson as far as Pakistan goes. The US funding directly & indirectly supports terrorism against India.
US props up Pakistan precisely because it commits terrorist attacks against India. If Pakistan stops being a threat to INdia, it is of absolutely no use to the US. This is the same strategy which makes US support Taiwan against China. It is a deliberate, well thought out strategy. There is no need for the US to "learn the lesson." The Goras know very well what they are doing. The real objective is not to allow India become too big for its boots. One or two thorns in India's side always help.

Sanjay, yes, you are right. I don't blame the US at all for trying to keep India under check. This is a natural response of realpolitik. India does it at some level and will do it at a bigger level when we begin to assume a bigger role in the world stage.

My grouse is slightly different. It is one thing to bottle up a country but quite another to encourage terrorism in order to achieve that. The US is supporting a country which has been failing on all fronts for over two decades now. Pakistan has been a politically unstable and immature militaristic country ever since it was born. Except for a very brief period, the Pakistanis had despised the Americans and their policies. Burning down the Islamabad embassy of the US was a huge affair and even the deliberate delay by Zia to rescue its officials did not move the American policy makers. In the 80s, Pakistan started terrorism against India in the Punjab. There was the US support for it too. Then, it started terrorism in J&K. The US supported that too. Then, Pakistan created Taliban to take complete control of Afghanistan. The US supported that too. Pakistan allowed Osama bin Laden to move into Afghanistan and establish himself. The tide began to turn then against the US as Osama started targetting the old friend the US with the help of Pakistan. Pakistan protected him when the Tomahawks rained down on OBL after the Kenya, Tanzania embassy attacks. The US did not learn the lesson. The 9/11 happened and the US thought that striking a deal with Pakistan would help. The ISI chief Lt. Gen. Mahmoud Ahmed not only funded 9/11 but even went at the behest of the US twice to Afghanistan to ostensibly deliver a tough message but he really egged on OBL & Mullah Omar to fight the US more vigorously instead. Pakistan not only milked the US completely but protected those Taliban who could eventually return to Afghanistan and take control once again. It entered into peace deals with them and occassionally mounted fake attacks and killed innocent civilians to build up a story and milk the Americans even more. The Taliban thus protected simply bloodied the American soldiers in circa 2009. Now, the Pakistanis have even audaciously offered to help 'bring the Taliban around', something that is being swallowed hook, line and sinker once again by the US.

I have recorded almost 30 or so terror incidents in the US or against US interests since 9/11 in which Pakistanis were involved in funding, planning, directing or actually executing the attacks. What the US thought that somehow terrorism will be confined only to India, and hence eminently supportable, has come back to roast them very seriously. And yet, they are feeding the snake, probably in the fond hope they will bottle up India ? If this is the motive, they have really not learned anything because that snake started biting them a decade back.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 03 Feb 2010 15:40

Three USAID officials killed in Lower Dir blast

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 03 Feb 2010 16:25

BBC reporting 3 US Marines killed in Lower Dir blast

Extract: Three US Marines are among at least 10 people killed in an attack on a convoy heading to a girls' school in north-west Pakistan, police have said.

archan · Post by **archan** » 03 Feb 2010 17:20

SSridhar wrote:Dr. Copy Cat's random thoughts, this time on some disastrous mistakes.
Ayub undertook his misadventure against Kashmir in 1965. Thanks only to the intervention of the West, we were saved from losing Kashmir and Lahore.

oh wait, I was under the impression that pakis thought they won in 1965.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 03 Feb 2010 17:31

^^

In 1666 Shivaji presented himself in the court of Aurangzeb and requested a 7,000 (Haft Hazari) rupees worth of Jagir. Aurangzeb arrogantly rejected the request and offered him a 5,000 rupees Jagir instead. When Shivaji objected, he was thrown into prison. He managed to escape by hiding under clothes in a bullock cart and later inflicted enormous damage to the Mogul dynasty, defeating the Mogul navy for the first time in 1664.

BC or AD

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 03 Feb 2010 17:40

I have one question. Please enlighten me.
What is this "khappay" business going on in Pure-land.
What is it's significance if any?
Any answers will be appreciated.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2010 17:49

rohiths, I understand that 'khappay' means wanted or needed in Sindhi. Apparently, after Ms. BB was assassinated the PPP jiyala jingoes said they wanted to break Pakistan as the Punjab was sending back only the bodies of Sindhis. Apparently, Zardari stepped in to to say 'Pakistan khappay' meaning Pakistan was still needed. A few months back, as the war between Zardari and the PA reached its height and the PA/ISI started a campaign of 'Minus One' formula, specifically targetting the President, the jiyalas in the Sind started saying that they would break Sind if anything like that happened and reminded everyone that but for Zardari's request, it would have happened after BB's death.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 03 Feb 2010 18:07

In 1666 Shivaji presented himself in the court of Aurangzeb and requested a 7,000 (Haft Hazari) rupees worth of Jagir. Aurangzeb arrogantly rejected the request and offered him a 5,000 rupees Jagir instead. When Shivaji objected, he was thrown into prison. He managed to escape by hiding under clothes in a bullock cart and later inflicted enormous damage to the Mogul dynasty, defeating the Mogul navy for the first time in 1664. In 1672 the Moguls were openly defeated at the hands of Shivaji, which shook the very foundations of the Mogul dynasty. Aurangzeb's blunder in not granting a favour to Shiraji led to the weakening and ultimate disintegration of the Mogul Empire. Had he agreed to grant that small favour, the Marhatas would not have found a good leader and would have dispersed.

It is at least heartening to know that the message of "the Marathas defeated the Mughal empire" is slowly sinking into Pakistani mindset. It was becoming tiresome to always hear the propaganda of "British took away India from the Muslims and they should have returned it to the Muslims when they left in 1947."

How may Pakis know that the Mughal Emperor was recieving a pension from the Marathas when the Brits arrived to capture Delhi, and that the fight for the seat of the Mughal empire was fought between the British and Marathas on the exact spot where the Nodia Golf Club now exists and that the blind Mughal emperor was cowering inside the Red Fort when the battle was raging.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 03 Feb 2010 18:12

^^ Adding to the above, Did you all notice the recent trade of some paki journalist criticizing their own country in matters such as islam, "J&K cannot be wrested from India" , against mullahs etc. Will there be a day when they start saying partition was a mistake?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 03 Feb 2010 18:28

anupmisra wrote:Three USAID officials killed in Lower Dir blast

As a follow up, I see that the pakis have changed it to "US Marines". Were the marines traveling as US Aid workers?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 03 Feb 2010 18:31

archan wrote:oh wait, I was under the impression that pakis thought they won in 1965.

Just for that, ZH (pbuh) will start to disown AQK, and start calling him a YYY agent.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 03 Feb 2010 19:02

anupmisra wrote:As a follow up, I see that the pakis have changed it to "US Marines". Were the marines traveling as US Aid workers?

So what else have unkil got on the ground in TSP? A NEST team?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Feb 2010 19:03

Well Shivaji never asked for 7000 etc... he said he wanted to be treated as a independent prince and sat down in the presence of aurangzeb.. and struck a court official who went to order him to rise. i think it was jai singh who ensured that shivaji escaped from delhi ( as he had given his word of honour to shivaji). auragzen never forgave jai singh for this.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 03 Feb 2010 19:05

^^^
Our source of national pride - Zaid Hamid ?

Nationalism is best understood in contrast to patriotism. Patriotism is simply love for one’s country, whereas nationalism is the sense that one’s nation is the best, often because it is more sacred than other nations. For the past few months, ‘Wake Up Pakistan’ – a campaign targeting this country’s youth – has been making waves both in the mainstream and social media.

The campaign aims to bring about an ideological revolution in Pakistan.

Spearheaded by Zaid Hamid, and supported by fashion designer Maria B and popular rock-star Ali Azmat, the country-wide campaign has comprised lectures at various educational institutes and has gathered quite a fan following.

Hamid’s official fan page left me stunned, and not only because he has a striking 24,682 fans online. What’s really shocking is Hamid’s irresponsibility in the face of his popularity and broad-based access to Pakistani youth.

The latest update on the page reads: ”Inshallah one day you will hear this………’This is radio pakistan from New delhi’.” Even more startling is the fact that Hamid’s fantasies of invading a neighbouring country were received with messages from young Pakistanis such as “Inshallah” and “we are eagerly waiting for that time!”

In reality, Hamid is doing nothing more than saying what most of us want to believe: our problems are the world’s fault. We are not responsible; they are. This strategy, of course, amounts to nothing more than scapegoating.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2010 19:09

We are willing to normalize relations with Pakistan: SM Krishna

India has indicated its willingness to normalise ties with Pakistan following indications that Islamabad is serious about prosecuting the masterminds of the Mumbai terror attacks in November 2008. The first step in this direction would be the Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram’s end of the month visit to Rawalpindi to attend a meeting of SAARC Ministers where he could “get a chance to have useful exchanges” with Pakistani leaders in addition to the planned multilateral meetings, External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna told newspersons accompanying him for a visit to Kuwait.

Taking note of Pakistan’s readiness to accept the lone surviving gunman’s confessional statement as evidence to prosecute the planners of the Mumbai attacks and other evidence with respect to boats used to ferry the attackers from Karachi, Mr. Krishna said India interpreted these as constructive signals. “Any step forward in the direction of Pakistan also investigating the Mumbai attacks will certainly make it easier for India to carry our normalisation of business with Pakistan,” observed Mr. Krishna.

Asked whether India would move in the direction of reviving the composite dialogue if Pakistan continued to show resolve to bring to book its nationals involved in the Mumbai attacks, the Minister felt “India should be quite satisfied with Pakistan taking a few steps to investigate the Mumbai attacks”. He hoped Pakistan would continue to focus its attention on rooting out elements plotting violence in India and termed such an attitude as “extra helpful” to Indo-Pak bilateral relations and dialogue.

Aman-ki-Asha is working. So, Sidharth Varadarajan was after all building the ground for this through his participation in NDTV discussion and then his article in The Hindu. Well done GoI.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 03 Feb 2010 19:23

http://www.facebook.com/brasstackspakistan

After browsing it for a while, I am positive that India is doomed.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 03 Feb 2010 19:34

biswas wrote:http://www.facebook.com/brasstackspakistan

After browsing it for a while, I am positive that India is doomed.

Actually all that Zaid Hamid stuff is more like the flailing around of a drowning man.

But we do need to keep the powder dry - since we liable to get hit by some of the flailing limbs.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 03 Feb 2010 19:47

Pranav wrote:
biswas wrote:http://www.facebook.com/brasstackspakistan

After browsing it for a while, I am positive that India is doomed.
Actually all that Zaid Hamid stuff is more like the flailing around of a drowning man.

But we do need to keep the powder dry - since we liable to get hit by some of the flailing limbs.

I was joking

But the thought of being at odds with a nations with a large (internet-going, hence fairly wealthy) mentally unstable population is confronting.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 03 Feb 2010 19:51

’This is radio pakistan from New delhi’

I am sure Profit Zaid Hamid also believes in tooth fairy and checks under his bed for RAA ajints every night before he goes to sleep.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 03 Feb 2010 19:55

It was incredibly shocking when I first came across this man spewing garbage against India at every plausible sentence and getting a huge applause from the crowd which mainly consisted of Students graduating from collages and seemed to belong to the Mid-upper income group in TSP. They are supposed to be the next generations of Pak and if this is how they are being openly radicalized then god help the lower income group kids who are being brainwashed in the name of religious teachings everyday in TSP rural areas.

I have never been more convinced of TSP's future path then by watching this man's videos and fan following.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 03 Feb 2010 20:00

3 US soldiers die in Pakistan blast
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20 ... stan-blast

The blast also killed three schoolgirls and a Pakistani soldier who was traveling with the Americans. Two more U.S. soldiers were wounded, along with more than 70 other people, mostly students, officials said.....

The Americans were traveling with Pakistani security officers in a five-car convoy that was hit by a roadside bomb close to the Koto Girls High School.

The soldiers were in the region as part of a U.S. mission to train members of the paramilitary Frontier Corps, Pakistan's army and the U.S. Embassy said.

The attack highlights the presence of U.S. troops on Pakistani soil at a time when anti-American sentiment is running high. U.S. and Pakistani authorities rarely talk about the American training program in the northwest out of fear it could generate a backlash.

Two Pakistani reporters traveling in same convoy as the Americans said Pakistani military guides referred to the foreigners traveling with them as journalists. Initial reports of the attack, which proved incorrect, said four foreign journalists had been killed.....

Pakistani army and intelligence officers were present and did not allow visitors into the building.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Feb 2010 20:06

On the 'green sole jahil mullah' controversy. Green came about due to the color of a famous mosque/ Robes that the prophet wore..trivial things. Symbolically, the Prophet of Islam in his Ghazwas and his Armies waved a black flag.

The major flag of Muhammad was known as "Al- Uqaab", it was pure black, without symbols or markings. Should'nt the Paki flag be pure Black? Should Green not be haraam? Maybe paki's can incorporate a skull and cross bones. Will look appropriate on TSP.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 03 Feb 2010 20:20

karachi on simmer. day 5.

Three more killed in Karachi as violence enters fifth day

A man was killed in Karachi’s Gulshan-i-Iqbal Town whereas two people were killed in the city’s Orangi Town and Qasba Colony areas. Meanwhile, a man wounded three days ago during the violence also succumbed to his injuries.

On Tuesday, at least 13 people were killed in incidents of firing in different areas of Karachi in the backdrop of the Pakistan People’s Party’s main coalition partner staging a walk out from the Sindh Assembly.

On Tuesday, Sindh Home Minister Zulfiqar Mirza said he would call in the army to “play its due role and take over Karachi, as a Swat-like law and order situation is developing in the provincial capital.”

Dawn readers' responses to: What should political parties do to end Karachi violence?

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 03 Feb 2010 20:27

dawn edit on kayani statement about strategic depth

The report in this newspaper highlighted how strongly the army feels on the issue: “He [Gen Kayani] warned that an environment hostile to Pakistan could strain its battle against militancy and extremism.” Translation: address our concerns regarding India, or else don’t expect us to cooperate as vigorously in the war against militancy. But this appeared a contradiction of sorts as Gen Kayani himself pointed out that Pakistan is fighting ‘our’ war, not America’s. For its part, the US has often given the impression that it has little influence or the inclination to convince India to reduce its role in Afghanistan. (India in any case argues its role is focused on development, though it has been eager to ramp up its training of the Afghan army and police.)
...

The India-centric approach may cause Pakistan to become net losers in a wider struggle that it may not be paying full attention to. Then there is the question of a future power-sharing agreement among Afghanistan’s internal players. Here, too, what the Pakistan Army can achieve appears to be limited. Pakistan is hugely disliked by the non-Taliban, non-Pakhtun forces in Afghanistan, while its ability to influence the Taliban and the broader Pakhtun community may be in question. What, then, are Pakistan’s options? Gen Kayani called on the US and Nato to come out with a clear strategy on Afghanistan; we can only hope he has told his Pakistani strategists the same thing.

We are upto no good, but we will not let you do any good either.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 03 Feb 2010 20:48

Steve Coll, Walk the Talk Indian Express
‘India’s security problems are graver than America’s in relation to jehadi terrorism’

After 9/11, it was common in the United States to see Afghanistan just as an ungovernable space dominated by tribes that would submit to no one. And I think a lot of journalists who had been around in that period when we were there, recognised that while tribal identity is important in Afghanistan, there is also a state.

And there is an Afghan nationalism. Very powerful.

Why is Afghanistan resilient under the pressure that it has faced and despite policy failures? It is because Afghans themselves are still trying to reclaim their own state.

Is that understood in Washington?

I think, partially. The one thing that has happened in the United States since 9/11 is that in the military, there are a lot of Americans who have now spent a lot of time on the ground in Afghanistan. They have now started to understand the place at the level of depth that was not available inside the system before 9/11. But, there is still an argument in Washington about what we were discussing, which is, is there really an Afghanistan that is worth investing in?

Like Iraq. If they pull out, can they leave behind a country that is still a hole, a sovereign hole?

Well, at least it can defend itself from the coercive revolutionary movements like the Taliban.

Or the ISI.

Or the ISI. Well, those two have been partners.

We started by saying we are a generation of ISI obsessed reporters. No city in the world is more obsessed with the ISI than New Delhi.

The ISI is a state within the state in Pakistan. It is a deep structure that has affected the Pakistani history and constrained the space in which Pakistani elites make very important decisions about their own national security doctrine. (But) the more you scrutinise ISI, the more you realise that like the Pakistani state itself, it is constrained by its own blind spots. It has internal diversity, there are arguments, there is corruption, there are multiple motivations going on at the same time. So, it is not as powerful as I think it sometimes gets represented as being, but its place today, within a very important debate in Pakistan about what kind of country Pakistan wants to be and what kind of defence and national security doctrine it wants to pursue, is still as powerful today as it was in the 80s.

On which side of that debate do you think the ISI belongs to now?

My impression from recent travel in Pakistan--that is over the last five-six years--is that since the Red Mosque incident (the July 2007 siege of Lal Masjid in Islamabad) and the emergence of domestic insurgency in Pakistan, ISI, like the Army, has no one view. There is an argument about where Pakistan’s interests lie exactly, with which group? What should we do with these groups tomorrow? What are the costs and benefits of pursuing the use of jehadi groups as an instrument of regional policy? Should we pursue it with some groups and not the other groups? And you see this playing out in the actions they are taking. So they will go after the Tehreek-e-Taliban, because those groups have explicitly made war against the ISI and the Pakistani states. But they are undecided, I would say, about the other groups, like Lashkar.

Some of us here think we are eternal skeptics on ISI and Pakistan. I, for example, have been writing that the Pakistanis, and the ISI in particular, are now indulging in a game of double nuancing. So they have got three sets of groups. They have got the Pakistani Taliban, who they will fight, because they threaten the Pakistani state and the Pakistani Army. There is the Afghan Taliban, who they will help the Americans fight a little bit but it does not suit them to have the Americans winning it. They would rather have a situation where both sides get tired and they can broker some kind of peace and install a friendly government. And then there is an entirely different third set, the Lashkar and the Jaish, who are still seen by many as a tactical and strategic asset or a force multiplier against India.

Do you think that is still reasonable?

That’s too reasonable. I think that I would add a couple of layers to that observation. One is that if you look at ISI’s own history, it is obvious that a pattern of failure is that they cannot control or categorise these groups as successfully as they would like to. And I think they become aware of the limits of their own “client management skills”. So, they have lost control of the lines of categories in this movement and they are aware of that to some extent because people they used to trust have walked into their cantonments and detonated themselves and taken the lives of their colleagues.

So, if I may use a metaphor that is relevant to the weather today, the ISI is getting caught or getting lost in the fog of the war it has created.

I think to some extent that is true. And it is certainly true in reference to the western groups. I mean to relationship between the Pakistani Taliban and the Afghan Taliban, remnants of the Al Qaeda group, group from Punjab that have migrated up to the border and now fused themselves with Tehreek-e-Taliban. That’s a mess. Unfortunately, they have not made a fundamental break with the idea of using these groups against India.

I am sorry to use the sort of Clausewitzian concept of ‘fog of war’ because a war that ISI is fighting is not a war that strategic theorist Carl Philipp Gottlieb von Clausewitz would have imagined.

Yeah, there was a suicide attack in Muzaffarabad the other day, first time in years. It shows that the old structure is in turmoil and the ISI is not in control in the command booth the way it used to be. I am hopeful, though not optimistic, but I think you have to keep your mind open to the possibility that there is a debate going on among Pakistani elites, including the Army, about where their self-interest lies as individuals, where their corporate-interest lies as an Army, as an institution and where the national interest lies.

That is the question. What will drive them? Their own interest, corporate interest or national interest or a trinity of these or a hatred for India.

Well, I think if you look around the world, there is no conflict like this one. There is no state like India and Pakistan.

There is no state like Afghanistan. God never made one.

But there are lots of examples of very large countries that were debilitated by conflict, by internal conflict and by Frankenstein’s monsters that they created themselves that found their way out of that box through economic integration. So, I think the only answer that will create this tri-effective motivations--individual self-interest; corporate self-interest, that is the Army’s self-interest in access to enough GDP growth to be able to modernise, and national self-interest, the sense of how Pakistan can possibly survive and succeed--depends on normalisation within there. The end. That is where Pakistan’s national self-interests lie.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Feb 2010 20:52

SSridhar wrote:We are willing to normalize relations with Pakistan: SM Krishna
India has indicated its willingness to normalise ties with Pakistan following indications that Islamabad is serious about prosecuting the masterminds of the Mumbai terror attacks in November 2008. The first step in this direction would be the Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram’s end of the month visit to Rawalpindi to attend a meeting of SAARC Ministers where he could “get a chance to have useful exchanges” with Pakistani leaders in addition to the planned multilateral meetings, External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna told newspersons accompanying him for a visit to Kuwait.

Taking note of Pakistan’s readiness to accept the lone surviving gunman’s confessional statement as evidence to prosecute the planners of the Mumbai attacks and other evidence with respect to boats used to ferry the attackers from Karachi, Mr. Krishna said India interpreted these as constructive signals. “Any step forward in the direction of Pakistan also investigating the Mumbai attacks will certainly make it easier for India to carry our normalisation of business with Pakistan,” observed Mr. Krishna.

Asked whether India would move in the direction of reviving the composite dialogue if Pakistan continued to show resolve to bring to book its nationals involved in the Mumbai attacks, the Minister felt “India should be quite satisfied with Pakistan taking a few steps to investigate the Mumbai attacks”. He hoped Pakistan would continue to focus its attention on rooting out elements plotting violence in India and termed such an attitude as “extra helpful” to Indo-Pak bilateral relations and dialogue.
Aman-ki-Asha is working. So, Sidharth Varadarajan was after all building the ground for this through his participation in NDTV discussion and then his article in The Hindu. Well done GoI.

The whole exercise by GOI appears to be aimed to achieving two things

Making it easy to participate in SAARC meeting at Rawalpindi.
If no dialogue policy continued then it would have been difficult for India to visit PAK for the meeting. In case of Non participation by India either meeting would have to be called off or postponed or venue to be changed. That requires consent of other member state. If they don't agree , India would have been seen isolated or intransigent, giving PAK an upper hand.Already , PAK has scored one on their statement that they can't guarantee another 26/11 not happening in India and ineffectual Indian response as ever.

Showing the world that though we are willing to take the first step, being a responsible regional power, despite PAK tough talk and thus putting onus on PAK to show real progress and genuine intention .

This might not happen as evident for the umpteenth times. India has to show and prove that 26/11 was a product of state-actors carried out by non-states actors and that is why PAK would not take action on this. Most of the evidence that emerged in public media shows complicity of PAK state. However we have inexhaustible supply of patience as we may not have enough muscle to carry our empty threats through.(Need to think of two front war all the time.)

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 Feb 2010 21:14

SSridhar wrote:Dr. Copy Cat's random thoughts, this time on some disastrous mistakes.
In 1666 Shivaji...

Someone else pointed out A Q Khan's poor grasp of history, in the very next paragraph

Napoleon had conquered almost of the whole of Western Europe and had reached as far as Alexandria in Egypt. But in the arrogance of power he made the mistake of attacking Russia. Heavy snowfall and severe winter conditions led not only to his defeat, but also to the destruction of his army, the loss of his armament and ultimately to his defeat by Admiral Nelson at Waterloo.

with the comment: ""
Interesting! My oh my the things one learns on the Internet! And here I was taught Admiral Horatio Nelson died at Trafalgar, and it was Wellington who defeated Napoleon! Darn those English, can't they get their facts straight?!

Yet another reason why Muslim extremists will be unsuccessful in defeating the West. To defeat one's enemy, it wouldn't hurt to get the facts OF your enemy straight. Hmm, I wonder if Khan thinks the Ottomans were successful at the siege of Vienna? ""

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Feb 2010 21:23

vishal wrote:BBC reporting 3 US Marines killed in Lower Dir blast

Extract: Three US Marines are among at least 10 people killed in an attack on a convoy heading to a girls' school in north-west Pakistan, police have said.

US will take this loss in its stride, a price it is willing to pay in its India (Hindu) containment policy.

Sanjay/SSridhar,

Yes, in TSP's case on can conclude that by US's support to those scum, it is directly supporint terror against India. But I don't understand the US-Taiwan-China triad. Taiwanese don't sponsor terror against China, and nor are they any match for China's might. Are the China Taiwanese differences so huge that US can take advantage as in the India TSP case?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 03 Feb 2010 21:24

SSridhar wrote:It is one thing to bottle up a country but quite another to encourage terrorism in order to achieve that. The US is supporting a country which has been failing on all fronts for over two decades now.

It seems this is because India does not have a plan on how to deal with Pakistan. In Talbott's Engaging India book, he agrees with JS that Pakistan is a problem, but then he asks JS to have India do something about it if it can.

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 03 Feb 2010 21:25

A bit OT

SRK ke naam pe de de baba

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 03 Feb 2010 21:32

I have a feeling that inspite of all the heart burn in BRF on MMS, he may be as Chankiyan as NRao. We must remember that NRao contributions were only slowly understood. When I stand back and look at Pakistan it is burning and MMS is just giving lip service to Brotherhood. The issue is, are we hammering them while being nice!