Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Feb 2010 17:42

Won't happen.
It seems like GoI has timed the talks with Gen Pasha's retirement and to pre-empt any possible parting shots he may have planned.

Kiyani would be planning to:
1. Make Zardari meet his 72
2. Give an extension to Pasha

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 13 Feb 2010 18:40

Hakeemullah alive, will release tape: Taliban commander
February 12, 2010 9:45 PM

"Now I am dead sure he is alive," the Taliban commander told The News. "I personally held a meeting with him and found him safe and sound."

Within the past few days, the Pakistani government has claimed it was 100 percent certain that Hakeemullah was dead but said it had no evidence to back it up. On two other occasions the government has claimed that Hakeemullah was killed, however: once in 2008, and then again in 2009.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 13 Feb 2010 19:04

CRamS wrote:
SSridhar wrote:India's embrace of dialogue remains limited & reluctant

Indian left are "useful idiots" to US; a hint of their MacAulite Anglicization can be found in Siddharth Vardarajan's usage of American football lingo, rarely used in Indian discourse except probably among NRIs and RNIs

with the entire exercise being quarterbacked by Mr. Menon and other officials in the Prime Minister’s Office.

Perhaps, OT, but I dislike the in vogue term "paqui" instead of "paki". The purelanders should not be confused with any latin american origins, as the term paqui suggests (atleast) to me. Is the pakiness getting to us, "allah hafiz" vs "khuda hafiz" debate in paakhaana land.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 13 Feb 2010 19:12

Guddu wrote: Perhaps, OT, but I dislike the in vogue term "paqui" instead of "paki". The purelanders should not be confused with any latin american origins, as the term paqui suggests (atleast) to me. Is the pakiness getting to us, "allah hafiz" vs "khuda hafiz" debate in paakhaana land.

I second that, the word "Paki" packs more punch than "Paqui".

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Feb 2010 19:15

i prefer paqui since its a deliberate feminisation of the TFTA image

anyway

the water issue is what cashmere was all about in the first place, interesting to note that its coming back to its roots. in fact the multiple frothing coming out of paquilande shows all manner of clutching at straws amidst a drowning populace

we need to game ahead...

the current chai-biskoot is engineered by unkil in order to secure unkil's flanks whilst the afghan army and police are trained up and unkil does his surge and then gets out of theatre before next elections. so lets assume that unkil is getting out, what next? what pressure will India be under if unkil is not in theatre? what leverage will TSPA have then?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 13 Feb 2010 19:33

Zaid Hamid and strategic depth —Farhat Taj

Some people of FATA drew my attention towards Zaid Hamid, who, they said, is a new charm offensive of the military establishment to popularise the notion of strategic depth among the youth from affluent families in the big cities of Pakistan. He is frequently given air time by the electronic media, also an evidence that the media, especially the Urdu media, is not free and has to toe the establishment’s line in security matters. Show biz celebrities have joined him. Those who oppose the strategic depth, especially the Pakhtun, who are the biggest casualty of it, are never given so much media attention.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_4

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Feb 2010 19:41

Fresh troubles in the days ahead in Pakistan.
Zardari rejects Chief Justice's recommendation for elevation of a Punjab HC judge to the Supreme Court.
Nothing unexpected as the issue has been exercising the minds of Zardari for some time.

President Asif Ali Zardari setting aside the summary of Chief Justice of Pakistan Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry Saturday appointed Chief Justice of Lahore High Court (LHC) Justice Khwaja Sharif as Supreme Court’s judge, Geo News reported.

Meanwhile, Justice Saqib Nisar, the senior most judge of LHC, has been appointed Acting Chief Justice of LHC. It is for the first time in the history of Pakistan that a senior judge has been appointed as the acting chief justice.

Notifications of the above appointments have been issued.

The two judges reject Government's offer

Chief Justice Lahore High Court Justice Khwaja Sharif and Justice Saqib Nisar, the senior most LHC judge, Saturday refused to accept the decision of the government.

They made it clear that they will not go against the recommendation or instruction of Chief Justice of Pakistan Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 13 Feb 2010 19:42

Deadly blasts at Pakistan police compound

At least 12 people have been killed and about 20 injured in two bomb explosions near a police compound in north-western Pakistan, officials say.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 13 Feb 2010 19:46

Can we stop being obsessed with Pakistan while Pakistan is still obsessed with us? - Vir Sanghvi
....

Given this background, how can any peace be possible? Every concession we offer (the inclusion of Baluchistan in the joint statement at Sharm-el-Sheikh, for instance) is treated as evidence of Indian perfidy. We are just being used by the Americans and the Pakistanis and our genuine desire for peace is being exploited.

I subscribe to Manmohan Singh’s vision. Of course, we must stop being obsessed with Pakistan. But can we do this while Pakistan is still obsessed with us?

And when that obsession is expressed through violence, murder and terrorism?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Feb 2010 19:53

ArmenT wrote:Deadly blasts at Pakistan police compound
At least 12 people have been killed and about 20 injured in two bomb explosions near a police compound in north-western Pakistan, officials say.

Looks like the well set batsman who was supposed to have been run out was found to be within the crease by the third umpire.
And the very next ball he faces, he dispatches to the boundary.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Feb 2010 19:57

shiv wrote:
Akshut wrote:It was fun going through TSP thread until 15-20 days back. Now it's all ...
What we need now is a massive terrorist attack in India to prove that the analysis here is right..

I'd rather be wrong.

Even a small attack will make the analysis partly right. The real problem in fitting curve to fact is if no terrorist attack occurs. That, as we all know is unlikely. GoI is talking to Pakistan knowing that attacks cannot be prevented.

One question is how to control the consequences of such an attack.

There are two levels of controlling the consequences - the first is provide for negative consequences to Pakistan - to punish Pakistan - which seems to be beyond India's will and capacity - and the second is to deny any positive consequences for Pakistan - not let Pakistan derive any advantage from the attack.

For that we would need to understand why the attack at this point in time? If Pakistan attacks out of general bloody-mindedness, the second level of control above is impossible. If Pakistan attacks with a purpose, e.g., in order to relieve pressure on its western flank, then the second level of control is possible.

Of course we want Pakistan to be the net loser of an attack; but that, given what we see of GOI's hand, is not in the cards. All we can hope for is no gain for Pakistan.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 13 Feb 2010 20:15

shiv wrote: Even a small attack will make the analysis partly right. The real problem in fitting curve to fact is if no terrorist attack occurs. That, as we all know is unlikely. GoI is talking to Pakistan knowing that attacks cannot be prvented.

Bomb Blast in Pune - 6 dead

Still not confirmed

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Feb 2010 20:15

If Pakistan rants and raves after an attack, this means that it is unhappy that even after the attack, the objective that the attack was supposed to achieve has not been reached.

I wonder if 26/11 had an objective to bring the Indian armed forces to the Indo-Pak border, or to shake up GoI so that it sees virtue in negotiating kashmir.

I wonder if the pakistanis themselves know why they did 26/11? If they really thought it through. These are the same guys who have displayed their strategic brilliance in Kargil and the srilankan team attacks. They ended up damaging themselves irredeemably than India.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Feb 2010 20:17

shravan wrote:Bomb Blast in Pune - 6 dead Still not confirmed

No news media has carried this news yet.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Feb 2010 20:18

This jodi of Kiyani and Pasha is like Billa and Ranga. Both mass murderers with blood on their hands.

Important that they be separated.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Feb 2010 20:19

Gagan wrote:
shravan wrote:Bomb Blast in Pune - 6 dead Still not confirmed
No news media has carried this news yet.

Times Now reports that as an LPG cylinder blast in a bakery, called German Bakery, apparently a popular one.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 13 Feb 2010 20:20

Gagan wrote:
shravan wrote:Bomb Blast in Pune - 6 dead Still not confirmed
No news media has carried this news yet.

ATS confirmed it a Bomb Blast.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Feb 2010 20:41

Choicest NUGGETS from TFT

Gandhi and Kinnaird College

Daily Pakistan reported on its front page that five senior teachers at Lahore’s Kinnaird College lost their jobs when they protested Principal Mrs Dean’s praise of Gandhi as a great leader. Their protest was based on the fact that idealising Gandhi would detract from Pakistan’s love for Jinnah. Principal Dean answered that the said five teachers were going to leave because their contract was up at the end of 2009. She said opinion on Gandhi was her private view.

No Indian involve

Daily Jang quoted Baloch leader Mir Hasil Bizenjo as saying that in Balochistan there was no interference from India. The paper called his statement hairan-kun (surprising). It also said that Hasil Bizenjo was on a visit in India and that his father Ghaus Baksh Bizenjo was against the union of Balochistan with Pakistan.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 13 Feb 2010 20:47

--DELETED--

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Feb 2010 20:50

Let's take the Pune incident to the 'Internal Security' thread, for the time being until the Pakistani hand is exposed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2010 20:58

A_Gupta wrote:
There are two levels of controlling the consequences - the first is provide for negative consequences to Pakistan - to punish Pakistan - which seems to be beyond India's will and capacity - and the second is to deny any positive consequences for Pakistan - not let Pakistan derive any advantage from the attack.

For that we would need to understand why the attack at this point in time? If Pakistan attacks out of general bloody-mindedness, the second level of control above is impossible. If Pakistan attacks with a purpose, e.g., in order to relieve pressure on its western flank, then the second level of control is possible.

Of course we want Pakistan to be the net loser of an attack; but that, given what we see of GOI's hand, is not in the cards. All we can hope for is no gain for Pakistan.

When Pakistan attacks, how do you decide whether it is "general bloody mindedness" or with a sense of purpose? Pakistani actions with regard to India are not random and ill thought out. They are designed to punish India if possible and minimise any positive consequences to India. They are conducted in the foreknowledge that Indian reactions to Pakistani actions can be one of several predictable possibilities and the negative consequences to Pakistan are often already thought out and action is taken to minimize those negative consequences. Secondly the Pakistan army is fully aware of the modes of punishment that India can employ and knows the cost to India of such punitive action and the benefits Pakistan can gain from Indian actions.

Pakistan's weaknesses are all well known to us. There s very little India can do to make Pakistan's weaknesses greater - Pakistan is doing a marvelous job. The only question is what India can do regarding Pakistani strengths.

This brings up the question: "What are Pakistan's strengths?"

Pakistan's biggest strengths are
1) (arguably) a general fear and loathing of India that has been assiduously generated over decades
2) A general feeling among the Pakistani people (Pakjabis, Sindhis and mohajirs) that no matter how bad the paki army is, it is still the only institution that can "stand up" to India. The Pakistani army stands up to India by simply not admitting defeat and advertising ever interaction as a victory.

Note that the above 2 points are interconnected

The Pakistani army is a huge part of the Pakistani establishment. The Pakistani establishment must be destroyed or weakened to bring down its clout. Directly attacking the establishment is not easy because most will survive a regular war, and only an operation like the US war on Iraq to occupy and take out leaders is likely to work, but the people of Pakistan hate and fear India so the going will not be easy if India tries that.

I have, from time to time advocated a degree of irrationality on India's part. I feel that the only way to hit Pakistan's establishment is to make them personally fear India. And that can be done by PGM and other methods intended to target the houses of the rich and influential people in Pakistan.

Any such action by India will have irrevocable consequences. It will met the "forum requirement" of "balls" on India's part, but it will not guarantee the elimination of Paki leadership and it is bound to cause collateral damage, both to Pakis (whom we do not give a turd for) and to the way India is perceived by Indians and other nations of the world. The leadership of Pakistan that survives such punishment will declare victory and say that they were justified in fearing India. Such punitive action by India will warm jingo hearts but will also warm the hearts of arms and nuke aid givers to Pakistan. And the Pakistani establishment has some close contacts with influential lobbies in the US as well as friends in China.

So a military defeat of the Pakistani establishment is, in my view, impossible.. You can have a military victory against Pakistan, but the establishment will survive as it has always done. They have to be brought down by non military means. Military means have a very very limited role, and it is entirely possible that silly action like attacking terrorist camps will an be laughed off by Pakis, who will declare victory immediately.

Pakistan may be a failing state, but it is hardly a weak state. And its failure cannot be hastened by fighting its strengths directly. Its strengths must be undermined and its weaknesses exploited and increased.

I will state it frankly - but some of the things I hear on BRF are laughably naive and assume that india actually has the power to do certain bad things to Pakistan. Indian power over Pakistan is highly limited as of today. No point forgetting that. In that sense BRF is right in moaning constantly, for that is about all that is possible. To that extent we are showing what is possible. Moaning is certainly a good way of venting impotent frustration.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Feb 2010 21:05

Could this Derail the Talks if one of the porkis is found guilty?

Yet its too early to confirm the nature of blast,I suspect its not a gas cylinder leakage.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 13 Feb 2010 21:05

Some tweets on the pune attacks:

Here is link to Feb 5th story by Nirupama Subramaniam in Hindu quoting JuD Abdul Rehman Makki's explicit threat to Pune http://is.gd/8j55i

Incredible that keyword search on Google News on Makki Delhi Pune Kanpur returns just this one story by Nirupama in Hindu reflects on media.

Beginning to wonder if Nirupama Subramnian was the only one in entire Indian media to report Makki's threat to Pune along with Kanpur Delhi

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 13 Feb 2010 21:09

Businessmen call for expanding trade with India

Mansoor, who claims to be in retail and wholesale business in consumer goods for his entire life, says that Indian goods are in high demand in the entire country but these are smuggled illegally.

Speaking about the immensity of the Indian products in Pakistani markets, he said that only cosmetic products imported from the neighbour make a list of a minimum 225 items, including shampoos, deodorants, sprays, masks, creams, oils, gels and products by other famous brands as Himalayas, etc. Besides these, there are health drinks like Bournvita, Complan, toiletries by Paras, medicines and pain relievers, eg, by Himani, and many other products. Quite a few of these items have little or no production in Pakistan.

Amjad Mansoor claimed that the razor blades used by almost 80 per cent barbers in Pakistan come from India. “About 80 per cent of the barbers in Pakistan use Indian blades, of brands like Ashok, Tentwin, Panama, Topaz, etc, all of which are smuggled into Pakistan regularly and we have no local companies producing them in abundance,” said another dealer. He did not mention the leading local manufacturer of shaving products Treet and global leader Gillet that have market presence in every nook and corner of the country. “Pakistanis trust in Indian products can be gauged from the fact that people have now started asking for Godrej locks too instead of the Chinese ones as they say they are more reliable, ” he added.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2010 21:11

jaladipc wrote:Could this Derail the Talks if one of the porkis is found guilty?

Yet its too early to confirm the nature of blast,I suspect its not a gas cylinder leakage.

It was reported initially as a gas cylinder blast and that is gradually being seen as a bomb blast. need to wait and see.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 13 Feb 2010 21:11

Definet Target offoreign nationals imo. At 7pm, the bakery is normally filled with foreigners. Lets see if PC will have more tough talk, or it will just be more documents being sent. The TSPA/ISI are begging India to launch a war on them.

Yawn, bored of saying this: If India was smart, it would launch a covert war inside TSP, kill/assassinate ISIwallahs in TSP, terrorists, dawood assets in Karachi. Economic attacks etc et... Cripple TSP further.

Shivji, confirmation that it is terror attack by the home secretary/ MHA. Target is specifically at foreigners. NIA despatched to Pune now as well.

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 13 Feb 2010 21:19

shyamd wrote:Definet Target offoreign nationals imo. At 7pm, the bakery is normally filled with foreigners. Lets see if PC will have more tough talk, or it will just be more documents being sent. The TSPA/ISI are begging India to launch a war on them.

Yawn, bored of saying this: If India was smart, it would launch a covert war inside TSP, kill/assassinate ISIwallahs in TSP, terrorists, dawood assets in Karachi. Economic attacks etc et... Cripple TSP further.

Shivji, confirmation that it is terror attack by the home secretary/ MHA. Target is specifically at foreigners. NIA despatched to Pune now as well.

Wasn't Osho Ashram one of the recee sites of Headley. It was reported that there is Jewish establishment near to Osho Ashram. Any Jews frequent this location?

OT here:

I cannot belive that Nikunj Garg from Times Now say...Right wing extremists or Islamic terrorism are a possibility.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 13 Feb 2010 21:26

^^ That is correct this was a place visited by headley. There was a notice given to all jewish places, now investigation is on whether people got too relaxed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2010 21:27

shyamd wrote: Shivji, confirmation that it is terror attack by the home secretary/ MHA. Target is specifically at foreigners. NIA despatched to Pune now as well.

Good move by Pakistan I guess.

It was Pakistan that was trying to wriggle free from talks. Now India has to wriggle free. Sad about the deaths. I am unashamedly happy to see any Paki die.

But unless India is ready for a make over of its image and how it is seen in the world - nothing will come of this. India has to appear like a nation that adds to instability in the world after spending decades trying to prove to the world that India adds stability to the world.

India must hit out at something. That something will not stop terrorism or change Pakistan. It will change the way India is seen and the way India sees itself.is. Indians are afraid to do that. All Indians, not just the GoI are afraid of foreign criticism and censure. And we never fail to glow with pride at praise and acknowledgement of India as positive.

If the world, for example says that "Hindu India" attacked Pakistan (as someone will if we do that) - we get angry and ask "Why Hindu India?". Our secularism comes bubbling up when we are hit by criticism. But why shouldn't a Hindu India be bad for an anti-Hindu Pakistan?

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 13 Feb 2010 21:29

India should cancel talks with Pakistan indefinitely. But, that aint going to happen. Our Politicians are too pussy to do that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Feb 2010 21:30

Bhaskar wrote:India should cancel talks with Pakistan indefinitely. But, that aint going to happen. Our Politicians are too pussy to do that.

How will cancellation of talks help? Wouldn't it be better to continue talks and hit a General's house in Islamabad and let Pakistan do the cancellation of talks?

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 13 Feb 2010 21:43

shiv wrote:
Bhaskar wrote:India should cancel talks with Pakistan indefinitely. But, that aint going to happen. Our Politicians are too pussy to do that.
How will cancellation of talks help? Wouldn't it be better to continue talks and hit a General's house in Islamabad and let Pakistan do the cancellation of talks?

Problem is : We Indians won't talk about terrorism in the talks. Pakistanis won't talk about anything but Kashmir and their Water Crisis. Terrorism will end up being a minor issue.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Feb 2010 21:47

shyamd wrote:
Yawn, bored of saying this: If India was smart, it would launch a covert war inside TSP, kill/assassinate ISIwallahs in TSP, terrorists, dawood assets in Karachi. Economic attacks etc et... Cripple TSP further.

Shivji, confirmation that it is terror attack by the home secretary/ MHA. Target is specifically at foreigners. NIA despatched to Pune now as well.

Arey yaaar, Dreams often carry wings

but in reality our PM,HM,RM dont carry balls

they literally failed to take the issue to UN/World when mjuhadis openly swore of destroying whole India on porkistani roads with huge rallies and campaigns.

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 13 Feb 2010 21:48

shiv wrote:
Bhaskar wrote:India should cancel talks with Pakistan indefinitely. But, that aint going to happen. Our Politicians are too pussy to do that.
How will cancellation of talks help? Wouldn't it be better to continue talks and hit a General's house in Islamabad and let Pakistan do the cancellation of talks?

It is a catch22 situation. Damed if i do, Damed if i do not....postpone the 25th talks and ask for new dates...hit something in pakistan....

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Feb 2010 21:50

Well, Mumbai has been spared. It is turn of Pune now. What is next? Maybe the feb 25 talks will remove all the uncertainty associated with pickings. Hold on to your seat belts till Feb 24, the dossier exchange will spell out the time table and itinerary of the targets.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 13 Feb 2010 21:51

jaladipc wrote:but in reality our PM,HM,RM dont carry balls

They got balls but ISI is tampering their balls Afridi style.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Feb 2010 21:51

shiv wrote:
Bhaskar wrote:India should cancel talks with Pakistan indefinitely. But, that aint going to happen. Our Politicians are too pussy to do that.
How will cancellation of talks help? Wouldn't it be better to continue talks and hit a General's house in Islamabad and let Pakistan do the cancellation of talks?

this time,I might agree with you.

Keep dragging the terrorism issue in all talks as much as possible and not giving porkis a chance to talk about kashmir and water while sending our james bonds to porkiland to do the dirty job.

May be this time we might change our stance on Kashmir as well.Instead of saying that that we will be happy with present borders(PM Words),we should be talking more about POK in world forums.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Feb 2010 21:53

shiv wrote:
When Pakistan attacks, how do you decide whether it is "general bloody mindedness" or with a sense of purpose?
Yes, this probably requires a level of intelligence collection that India does not have.

Pakistani actions with regard to India are not random and ill thought out. They are designed to punish India if possible and minimise any positive consequences to India. They are conducted in the foreknowledge that Indian reactions to Pakistani actions can be one of several predictable possibilities and the negative consequences to Pakistan are often already thought out and action is taken to minimize those negative consequences. Secondly the Pakistan army is fully aware of the modes of punishment that India can employ and knows the cost to India of such punitive action and the benefits Pakistan can gain from Indian actions.
This would suggest that the attacks are purposeful, with specific tactical goals, and a general strategic objective.

Pakistan's weaknesses are all well known to us. There s very little India can do to make Pakistan's weaknesses greater - Pakistan is doing a marvelous job. The only question is what India can do regarding Pakistani strengths.

I thought general doctrine is to exploit the enemy's weaknesses rather than attack their strengths. Perhaps the moaners here don't understand that? Maybe the game is one of positional chess while the moaners want faster action and spectacular attacks?

In your assessment, does Pakistan have more freedom of action - more viable alternatives - today as compared to ten years ago?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 13 Feb 2010 21:56

I am with the GOI on one thing at least. For every terrorist incident in India that has roots in Pakistan, India cannot launch an attack on Pakistan. However one thing it can do and make it clear after every terrorist incident that can be traced back there. It can launch an attack on the idea of Pakistan. And that must be done. No need to attack the state physically. Attack it very basis of being.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Feb 2010 21:57

We cant depend on our intelligence completely.
You know this will look like,IB officials telling PC that KCR is going to die--so you better prompt that separate state thingy.

May be time for india to invest more in churning out kick ass agents?