Indian Army History Thread
Re: Indian Army History Thread
^ They look to be .303 Lee-Enfields.
Any idea what group/force they are supposed to be from. 1965 would mean they are not the Mukti Bahini for sure. Maybe they are the civil defence wing of the then East Pakistan??
Any idea what group/force they are supposed to be from. 1965 would mean they are not the Mukti Bahini for sure. Maybe they are the civil defence wing of the then East Pakistan??
Re: Indian Army History Thread
^^^^
Looks like a propaganda photo to me. For one thing, the grip that at least three of women are using is wrong and there's a good chance that someone is going to get a broken cheekbone or nose if they pull that trigger.
Looks like a propaganda photo to me. For one thing, the grip that at least three of women are using is wrong and there's a good chance that someone is going to get a broken cheekbone or nose if they pull that trigger.
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Re: Indian Army History Thread
After performing a reverse search on a few photo search engines, located this on corbisimages. original caption is quoted below. looks like 303, we got to practice on those while in NCC - Navy. I agree gives quite a kick when fired.
Women of Pakistan During Rifle Practice
Original caption: Dacca, Pakistan: "Indian Fighters." Rifles are not the best accessories for saris. Unfortunately, they are the fashion in many of the most exotic parts of the world, which now seem to be the most troubled parts of the world. Near Dacca, young girls and housewives learn to handle guns during mass military training spurred by the recent crisis involving Pakistan and India.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Sorry for the OT post... Since some semi-political discussion was going on thought of posting my comments also.. will delete it or mods plz remove if you feel so..
I just saw this in wiki page about CPM..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_ ... CPI.28M.29
I remember reading about the behavior of jailed guys. they even opposed blood donation by jailed inmates. same guy is ruling the state now(Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan incident fame).. i think he received the first warning from party during that time for not opposing the blood donation initially.. read along with that the present kerala govt's enthusiasm about giving the vizhinjam port(one of the best place in IoR for listening post) contract to a chinese company(GoI vetoed), reluctance to hand over land for brahmos project, covering up of LeT Nazir case(he was released from KP custody after a very senior leader intervened), chinese radar @ trivandrum, human chain against asean deal etc etc.
Compare that with the news about RSS... Once I asked K.S Sudarshan(former RSS chief) about their priorities and his reply was Nation comes first, then religion/culture and after that only organisation. I am happy to welcome his comment... With more than 1 million somewhat disciplined members they can contribute a lot in terms of man power for logistics and all...
I just saw this in wiki page about CPM..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_ ... CPI.28M.29
CP of India split after the war due to this differences and the guys who supported china formed CPM..Controversial stand on India-China war
During the war, a faction of the Indian Communists backed the position of the Indian government, while other sections of the party claimed that it was a conflict between a socialist and a capitalist state, and thus took a pro-Chinese position. There were three factions in the party - "internationalists", "centrists", and "nationalists". Internationalists supported the Chinese stand whereas the nationalists backed India; centrists took a neutral view. Prominent leaders including S.A. Dange were in the nationalist faction. B. T. Ranadive, P. Sundarayya, P. C. Joshi, Basavapunnaiah, Jyoti Basu, and Harkishan Singh Surjeet were among those supported China. Ajoy Ghosh was the prominent person in the centrist faction. In general, most of Bengal Communist leaders supported China and most others supported India.[3] Hundreds of CPI leaders, accused of being pro-Chinese were imprisoned. Some of the nationalists were also imprisoned, as they used to express their opinion only in party forums, and CPI's official stand was pro-China. Thousands of Communists were detained without trial.[4] Those targeted by the state accused the pro-Soviet leadership of the CPI of conspiring with the Congress government to ensure their own hegemony over the control of the party.
I remember reading about the behavior of jailed guys. they even opposed blood donation by jailed inmates. same guy is ruling the state now(Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan incident fame).. i think he received the first warning from party during that time for not opposing the blood donation initially.. read along with that the present kerala govt's enthusiasm about giving the vizhinjam port(one of the best place in IoR for listening post) contract to a chinese company(GoI vetoed), reluctance to hand over land for brahmos project, covering up of LeT Nazir case(he was released from KP custody after a very senior leader intervened), chinese radar @ trivandrum, human chain against asean deal etc etc.
Compare that with the news about RSS... Once I asked K.S Sudarshan(former RSS chief) about their priorities and his reply was Nation comes first, then religion/culture and after that only organisation. I am happy to welcome his comment... With more than 1 million somewhat disciplined members they can contribute a lot in terms of man power for logistics and all...
Re: Indian Army History Thread
If my understanding is true Com. V.S Achu donated blood. It was M.V Raghavan (of CMP) who opposed the blood donation camp stating that he need not show his patriotism in this manner. And then there was the intellectual genius of the commies Com. EMS Namboodirippad who declared that "the war is over the land which India claims as hers and China claims as theirs". Namboodirippad during that time I guess felt he was a US citizen and can give such neutral opinions.rajeshks wrote:they even opposed blood donation by jailed inmates. same guy is ruling the state now(Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan incident fame)..
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Sachin, I was recently in your state, and was at a book release during which an honourable comrade gave a speech. I was amazed to hear this gentleman (Erudite, a professor apparently, and a high ranking member of the state government setup), telling the crowd that "For a marxist Leninist state to be established in this country, the armed forces and the bureaucracy must be destroyed from within!"!!Sachin wrote:If my understanding is true Com. V.S Achu donated blood. It was M.V Raghavan (of CMP) who opposed the blood donation camp stating that he need not show his patriotism in this manner. And then there was the intellectual genius of the commies Com. EMS Namboodirippad who declared that "the war is over the land which India claims as hers and China claims as theirs". Namboodirippad during that time I guess felt he was a US citizen and can give such neutral opinions.rajeshks wrote:they even opposed blood donation by jailed inmates. same guy is ruling the state now(Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan incident fame)..
It wasnt a high publicity event, but I should think these sorts of views, if held by members of govt, should be taken as an indicator of what some people think!
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Marxist-Leninist variety are closet Naxalites. How ever in the socialist republic Marxist-Leninists generally wage war as "arm chair generals" (only talking, and no fighting). The Communist-Marxist variety are not better, and generally hold any force in uniform in low esteem. These folks take liberalism to the extremes and for them army, police are forces against liberalism.ASPuar wrote:telling the crowd that "For a marxist Leninist state to be established in this country, the armed forces and the bureaucracy must be destroyed from within!"!!
There was also a commie minister who had served a short time in the army. He opined that trade unionism should be introduced in the Army! Some of the commies also feels that IPS should be removed, and all police officers should be from the state. Considering your observation, it makes things even more clear. Put up "commie commisars" as police men, civil servants and then we can have a Stalinist kind of rule. The first commie government had introduced some of these tricks, where party "cells" decides which government officials did what. They started meddling too much into the state govt. functioning and the opposition used this also as a reason for toppling the first elected commie govt in India.
Guess every one has started taking note. That is why all cases related to threat to the nation have been safely taken away from Kerala Govt and its law enforcement agencies. For ages Kerala and its commies used to say that terrorism is not an issue in Kerala, as we are secular etc. etc. Finally we see that all the master-minds behind bomb blasts are folks from this state.It wasnt a high publicity event, but I should think these sorts of views, if held by members of govt, should be taken note of!
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Found out a bit more about the gentleman who I had the pleasure of seeing. It seems he is an economist, and a political appointee to head the state planning commission. Was educated at St. Stephens, and thenceforth for his MPhil and PhD at Oxford. Held a professorship at JNU, Delhi, and is currently also on a UN Panel or two!
Amazing how these chaps become so mainstream. But an erudite and well spoken man, as I say. Nothing he said made any sense at all, it was all pure blather, blood, and guts, but it sure did sound good.
Amazing how these chaps become so mainstream. But an erudite and well spoken man, as I say. Nothing he said made any sense at all, it was all pure blather, blood, and guts, but it sure did sound good.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
sachin, Names are not the point here. Its about the party which is openly supporting anti-india activities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._S._Achuthanandan
As per wiki page on V.S, he was demoted in party for donating blood for indian soldiers. What a party it is. after the disciplinary action he also supported party policy of opposing indian soldiers. I am not sure whether M.V Raghavan was an important leader that time, he was just 29 years old... also he was a CPI member that time, he founded CMP 25 years after indo-china war, no point in blaming CMP. On the lighter side, RSS can help india on this point also, they can very well handle CPM in kerala if cpm dare to openly support china again inspite of all their efforts for 30 years to make kannur another bengal, they failed just bcoz of rss. you see democracy existing in most parts of kannur and the story behind that is written in blood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._S._Achuthanandan
As per wiki page on V.S, he was demoted in party for donating blood for indian soldiers. What a party it is. after the disciplinary action he also supported party policy of opposing indian soldiers. I am not sure whether M.V Raghavan was an important leader that time, he was just 29 years old... also he was a CPI member that time, he founded CMP 25 years after indo-china war, no point in blaming CMP. On the lighter side, RSS can help india on this point also, they can very well handle CPM in kerala if cpm dare to openly support china again inspite of all their efforts for 30 years to make kannur another bengal, they failed just bcoz of rss. you see democracy existing in most parts of kannur and the story behind that is written in blood.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Sir, this is what which runs the whole show. Many of the commie leaders are good orators. And to put it honestly, they read up books and also identify points which suit their agenda. Naturally they do have followers who listen to every word of them and consider it as God's words. So consider these chaps as Mark Antonys (when he makes the famous speech) in the Shakespeare Drama "Julius Caesar". The problem with the people (orator and the listeners) are that they are in a world of their own. Most of the crowd who attended this meeting would be folks settled down in the "Socialist Republic", and would be in some government job or other. Such a crowd with their minimum awareness of how the world is changing around them, would accept all this with a smile.ASPuar wrote:Amazing how these chaps become so mainstream. But an erudite and well spoken man, as I say. Nothing he said made any sense at all, it was all pure blather, blood, and guts, but it sure did sound good.
Let us not get political here. That would derail this whole thread . But how ever the preamble/party manifesto of communuist party -CPI(M)- need to be verified. If I am not mistaken there was a case filed which said that CPI(M)'s party manefesto was against the Indian Constituition. The Manifesto calls for a "proletarian dictatorship", where as the Consitituition demands a "democarcy".rajeshks wrote:sachin, Names are not the point here. Its about the party which is openly supporting anti-india activities.
Any way this is totally off topic for this thread. So this would be my last post on this topic .
Re: Indian Army History Thread
I was reading few books on World war II Japan. I was wondering, Indian soldiers fought Japan in our eastern borders and in Myanmar for british. On the otherside Subhash Chandra Bose was helped by Japan to fight for Indian independence. I owe anyone helping my nation but fighting the 'enemy' is a soldier's dharma. Its a complex situation. If it happened now whom will we support? Would like to know what everyone feels about this situation.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
My grandfather fought the Japanese in WWII, in the Arakan. And though he is no fan of the British Empire (Indeed, he was glad to see their backs), I dont think there was any doubt in his mind what his duty was. Because a soldiers duty is his religion. The Japanese were no friends of India, or Indians, and we would have fared far worse under them, than under even the British, as many of our captured jawans found out for themselves. Heck, as the Burmese, Thais, Indonesians, Malays, Singaporeans, Koreans etc all discovered, the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere envisioned little prosperity for them, and many of them were reduced to slave status!rajeshks wrote:I was reading few books on World war II Japan. I was wondering, Indian soldiers fought Japan in our eastern borders and in Myanmar for british. On the otherside Subhash Chandra Bose was helped by Japan to fight for Indian independence. I owe anyone helping my nation but fighting the 'enemy' is a soldier's dharma. Its a complex situation. If it happened now whom will we support? Would like to know what everyone feels about this situation.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Japanese would not have been able to keep India or rule India. British were inside India for 200 years and they built their trading connections and favours over a long time.ASPuar wrote:My grandfather fought the Japanese in WWII, in the Arakan. And though he is no fan of the British Empire (Indeed, he was glad to see their backs), I dont think there was any doubt in his mind what his duty was. Because a soldiers duty is his religion. The Japanese were no friends of India, or Indians, and we would have fared far worse under them, than under even the British, as many of our captured jawans found out for themselves. Heck, as the Burmese, Thais, Indonesians, Malays, Singaporeans, Koreans etc all discovered, the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere envisioned little prosperity for them, and many of them were reduced to slave status!rajeshks wrote:I was reading few books on World war II Japan. I was wondering, Indian soldiers fought Japan in our eastern borders and in Myanmar for british. On the otherside Subhash Chandra Bose was helped by Japan to fight for Indian independence. I owe anyone helping my nation but fighting the 'enemy' is a soldier's dharma. Its a complex situation. If it happened now whom will we support? Would like to know what everyone feels about this situation.
See the movie again Tora! Tora! Tora!. I saw it again the Nth time. The Japanese were looking for raw materials and they planned to attack the south east asia. US and the BRitish empire put an embargo on them and they had to fight them.
Netaji took advantage of the split in the European and Japanese imperial powers and used it to fight the British. He was careful not to fight his own people and attack Indians.
Indians in the British Indian Army were part of the 100 year British rule who were fighting for the Crown and defending their ancestral land. This is how it should be seen and analysed.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Some native indian regiments supported british against the fighters during the 1857 war of independence too (which started as sepoy mutiny) but none of the two observations noted above were true then (100 years and defending the ancestral land). Notably Punjab, Gurkha and Garhwalis. Britishers were smart to use the same regiments again in the eastern front during the face off with the INA.Acharya wrote:Indians in the British Indian Army were part of the 100 year British rule who were fighting for the Crown and defending their ancestral land. This is how it should be seen and analysed.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Good fair question.CalvinH wrote:
Some native indian regiments supported british against the fighters during the 1857 war of independence too (which started as sepoy mutiny) but none of the two observations noted above were true then (100 years and defending the ancestral land). Notably Punjab, Gurkha and Garhwalis. Britishers were smart to use the same regiments again in the eastern front during the face off with the INA.
The native Indian regiment were looking at their small regional monarchy as their home land and helped the British to defeat the purabia troops who were revolting. This notion of firangi as not their own was not in the conscious of those Indian troops.
The Europeans - British French Portuguese were helping any kingdom/monarchy who wanted their help during the 1600-1800 period. After that they changed when they only started helping themselves and other Europeans against the Indian monarchy. Once they controlled the trade, money supply, cotton trading and support of the merchant class British were in control. This transition took place between 1795 - 1835. This is rarely understood by the Indians even now from the history.
The European were available to hire to anybody who paid them money. French used to help Tipu Sultan and other kingdoms against the British. After the defeat of the French in the 7 year in 1757 all the other Europeans directly or indirectly helped the British to defeat the rest of the Indian kingdoms.
Indian soldiers were also on hire initially for the East India Company from 1600. They fought for the East India company regiments during the 1857 and were absorbed into the British Crown troops after the crown took over the rule. The Indian elite and the leadership never really understood that the East India Company and the British Crown were one and the same and the British fooled the Indian monarchy(s) saying that the Crown will save the Indians from the excesses of the The Company. Rest of the troops which were on hire gave their allegiance to the Crown by default. Not many understood that they was losing their sovereign rights inside their own country. The colonial British had various subtle ways to cut down any opponents without rising the ire of the larger population. British made sure that they were mostly friendly and trading with the Indian upper class and the Indian merchants.
Some good books on Colonial British India history will give some details
Raj: The Making and Unmaking of British India
~ Lawrence James
Ideology and Empire in Eighteenth-Century India: The British in Bengal (Cambridge Studies in Indian History and Society)When Robert Clive, a "harum-scarum schoolboy" not yet out of his teens, arrived in India in 1744, he found himself in the middle of chaos: English merchants fought against French traders, Indian princes warred among themselves, Portuguese and Dutch privateers plied the coasts, and throughout the country, anarchy reigned. Clive flourished amid the confusion. He quickly distinguished himself both in battle, showing bravery and unusual presence of mind, and in trade. The combination was profitable for his employer, the East India Company, and although Clive committed suicide in the wake of political scandal in 1774, he set in motion what would become the British conquest of India and the establishment of the Raj, a mixed form of government in which the English ruled through a network of Indian politicians and civil servants. Outwardly stable, the Raj was constantly under threat both by Indian aspirations to self-rule and by other imperialists' intrigues, notably on the part of Russia, Britain's chief competitor in what would come to be called "the great game."
~ Robert Travers
Empire: The Rise and Demise of the British World Order and the Lessons for Global Power (Paperback)
~ Niall Ferguson
Between Mars and Mammon: Colonial Armies and the Garrison State in 19th Century India (International Library of Historical Studies, Vol 1)
~ Douglas M. Peers
European Commercial Enterprise in Pre-colonial India: Volume 2 (The New Cambridge History of India)While popular images of the British Raj are saturated with images and memories of military campaigns, remarkably few scholarly studies have considered the direct impact that the army exerted on the day-to-day operations of the British in India. Douglas Peer's book demonstrates not only how important the army was to the establishment of British domination but also to its subsequent form and operation.
Soldiers and civilians, with rare exception, were united by the truism that British rule could only be retained by the sword. A rationale and a programme for the Raj emerged that emphasized the precariousness of British rule and showed that its security could only be assured by constant preparedness for war. Consequently, military imperatives and the army's demands for resources were given priority in peacetime as well as wartime. This accounts for the origin of the Burma War (1824-26) and the capture of Bhartpur (1825-26), neither of which would appear at first glance to be strategically vital or economically desirable.
Authorities in London viewed this militarization of the colonial administration and its treasury with misgivings, recognizing not only the financial costs involved, but the political consequences of an increasingly autonomous army. Their efforts to restrain the army were only partially successful. Even William Bentinck (1828-1835), long famous for ushering in a period of reform in India, could only temporarily curb military spending and the influences of the army. He left the military chastened but undefeated; the army's interests were too deeply entrenched and even Bentinck was forced to concede Britain's dependence on the Indian army.
~ Om Prakash
The Economy of Modern India, 1860-1970 (The New Cambridge History of India) (Paperback)
~ B. R. Tomlinson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plassey"...Tomlinson's arguments...are always engaging...Tomlinson skillfully demonstrates the impact on India of periodic fluctuations in the world capitalist economy from 1824 to 1945 and believes these events largely determined the shape of modern India...required reading for any serious student of India's economy and India's place in development theory." Marc Jason Gilbert, Journal of Developing Areas
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 1-1739.png
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Ideal book to read is
A Matter of Honour
Philip Mason.
He has been very fair to Indians in his book.
A Matter of Honour
Philip Mason.
He has been very fair to Indians in his book.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Yes, A matter of Honour is a good book. An interesting history of the IA.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Check out how the Colonial British used all the social differences within India to manage the Indian Army
A Book Review
http://frontierindia.net/fidelity-and-honour
“The Indian Army: A Brief History“, Edited by Maj Gen Ian Cardozo, AVSM, SM (Published in 2005), by Centre for Armed Forces Historical Research, United Service Institution of India, Rao Tularam Marg, Post Bag No 8, Vasant Vihar PO New Delhi 110057 Pp 344 Price Rs 750 ISBN 81-902097-0-1
The most detached chapter, is the opening one that has been researched and written by the Rajput’s Maj Gen Ashok Verma, AVSM, and has been very aptly titled “Genesis and Evolution”. It banks heavily on the seminal writings of Philip Mason and Grenadier’s Lt Gen S L Menezes. It is neither in the purview of Indian military writers, nor is it their wont, to comment on the class (read caste ) composition of army units of those times, else, it will not be out of place to find mention of a fact, much argued by Dr Ambedkar in the 1930s , that, the East India Company established its sway over the sub-continent only on the fighting prowess of the ‘untouchables’; whom the founding fathers of the lal paltans of the native sepoys found easier to manage and less expensive than the high caste regiments ridden by their caste fads on eating , ablution and cross –kala pani moves: beliefs that were subordinated to valour and military discipline! The Bengal Army, which won the battle of Plassey, was largely composed of Dushads . The Anglo-Maratha wars, which let the British in to Western India, was won by the Mahars of the Bombay Presidency Army.The Madras Army, which defeated Tipu Sultan, was of the Pariahs and Malas! To counter the raising of 74 high caste native regiments between 1757 and 1857, 24 regiments of mahazabi Sikhs were raised, in the Punjab. It was these, and the Mahars and Paraiah irregular units that broke the sepoy’s siege of Delhi ’s moghul Red Fort on 15 September 1857.[/color][/size]
(The Writer Lt. Col A.K. ‘Sam’ Sharma is an alumnus of the National Defence Academy, Kharakvasla. Col Sharma was commissioned into the 3rd Gorkha Rifles of the Indian Army in Februray 1964, He retired in 1997 after serving for 33 years. A graduate of the Defence Services Staff College, Wellington, he holds a MSc Degree in Defence Studies from the Madras University. This officer has been on the instructional staff of two of Indian Army’s premiere training institutes: the College of Combat; now known as the War College; (Directing Staff Junior Command Wing-1972-1975) and the Infantry School ( Senior Instructor, Platoon Commander’s Wing—1984-87) both located in Mhow (MP); where he taught tactics at the unit and sub-unit levels to students, some of who were from friendly foreign armies. He has also served at the world- renowned Indian Military Academy, Dehradun. Col Sharma can be contacted at aksh9@airtelbroadband.in)
Last edited by Rahul M on 09 Jan 2010 03:23, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: please avoid large fonts and unnecessary colours.
Reason: please avoid large fonts and unnecessary colours.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
I cant find the 1857 thread here. Might be in archives. Till then.
History from below
Frontline published article by Prof. Irfan Habib on occassion of 150 th anniversary.
History from below
Frontline published article by Prof. Irfan Habib on occassion of 150 th anniversary.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
It is not about 1857 but the period 1795-1835. The transition from traders and Europeans for hire to British controlling trade and ruling the various regions.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
British were very successful in projecting a good boy image. I got an opportunity to read books from the local county library which has more than 1000 books on military history most of them by british authors. One thing that is common across authors, all bad things are done by enemy soldiers and british soldiers are good boys. To project an unbiased image, authors even talk about the atrocities committed by their allies including americans but not even a single word against british. I read about american soldiers making war souvenirs from the bones of kamikaze pilots, an american soldier who took revenge for his friends death by chopping both ears of an afghan villager who accidentally came to the site of an encounter etc etc. Not to mention about germans, russians or japanese. But calling air strike(and dropping a 2000lb bomb) to kill a single taliban holed up inside a house in a residential area or killing 10 civilians including 2 kids just 'suspecting' them to be 'suicide bombers' by british soldiers are just accidents and won't be considered as war crime. Things like jalianwalabag are just stories..
Japanese were ruthless but I don't think british were better. even today many >40 year old british ladies(??) behave as if Indians are still their slaves, so think about the situation when they were ruling India.
Japanese were ruthless but I don't think british were better. even today many >40 year old british ladies(??) behave as if Indians are still their slaves, so think about the situation when they were ruling India.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Google Book
Aspects of India's International Relations:1700-2000 by Jayanta Kumar Ray.
Very interesting article on evolution of Indian Army among other things.
There is description of Ranjit Singh's Armies.
Aspects of India's International Relations:1700-2000 by Jayanta Kumar Ray.
Very interesting article on evolution of Indian Army among other things.
There is description of Ranjit Singh's Armies.
Re: Book Review Folder - 2008/2009
X posted from India -Russia thread
I have finished reading
Red coats to olive green a history of the Indian Army, 1600-1974 by V. Longer
As per Ramana garu's request ,i have scanned some pages from the book dealing with 1967 Nathu la clashes with china as well as some of the interesting information regarding the 1962 border clash.
I will start with the 1962 border clashes.
1. The reason's for the set backs in 1962 in Nehru's words
2. The reason's for the set backs in 1962 as per B.N.Kaul, the commander of 4 corps.
3. Nehru's often quoted ' My heart goes out to Assam ' speech .
4. Nehru comes to terms with the long term chinese threat
ramana wrote:Rony Can we have a scan of only those pages about Nathu La?
Thanks, ramana
I have finished reading
Red coats to olive green a history of the Indian Army, 1600-1974 by V. Longer
As per Ramana garu's request ,i have scanned some pages from the book dealing with 1967 Nathu la clashes with china as well as some of the interesting information regarding the 1962 border clash.
I will start with the 1962 border clashes.
1. The reason's for the set backs in 1962 in Nehru's words
2. The reason's for the set backs in 1962 as per B.N.Kaul, the commander of 4 corps.
3. Nehru's often quoted ' My heart goes out to Assam ' speech .
4. Nehru comes to terms with the long term chinese threat
Last edited by Rony on 19 Jan 2010 12:02, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Book Review Folder - 2008/2009
5. Recommendations of Henderson Brooks report-1
6. Recommendations of Henderson Brooks report-2
6. Recommendations of Henderson Brooks report-2
Re: Book Review Folder - 2008/2009
The 1967 Nathu La and Chola Clashes
"1967 is not 1962 " - Sardar Swaran Singh
"1967 is not 1962 " - Sardar Swaran Singh
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Re: Indian Army History Thread
Seems to be an important book:
1965 war: the inside story, Defence Minister Y.B. Chavan's diary of India-Pakistan war.
by Pradhan, RD
ISBN: 9788126907625
Publisher: Atlantic Publishers and Distributors, New Delhi
Pub.Year: 2007
http://bibliaimpex.com/index.php?p=sr&U ... 1448503078
1965 war: the inside story, Defence Minister Y.B. Chavan's diary of India-Pakistan war.
by Pradhan, RD
ISBN: 9788126907625
Publisher: Atlantic Publishers and Distributors, New Delhi
Pub.Year: 2007
http://bibliaimpex.com/index.php?p=sr&U ... 1448503078
Help with research on the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War
Good morning all,
My name is Piers and Im a wargamer based in Ireland. I have always had a fascination with conflicts involving India and I am currently building up forces to refight the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971.
I am hoping some of the knowledgable people on this forum may be able to help me out a little.
While I have several good sources, Im having trouble finding out unit compositions/TOEs for...
Indian Infantry Platoon/Company/Battalion (is this the same as a 1944 British formation?)
Indian Armoured units (especially the difference, if any, between those with T-55s, Centurions and Shermans)
Indian Artillery Formations
Im also after the same for the Pakistani Army.
I would also like to know how Indian and Pakistani armoured infantry units were built? Did they have the same TOE as ormal units or did they differ?
Also Im trying to find a complete list of vehicles used by the Indian Army and their Pakistani enemies. While I have most things covered Im finding references to a few things that seem incorrect.
One is the Indian 70th (?) Armoured Regiment (?) using SS-11s. The SS-11 I have come across is the missile armed AMX-13 variant and I cant find reference to these having been exported. I have found a comment that they were equipped with some form of armoured car with an improvised mount for the SS-11 ATGW.
Im also looking for details of the 10th Para Commando and their jeeps.
Basically, Im after any information (and also pictures, especially those not often seen on the net) that can help me build up a picture of how Indian and Pakistani units were comprised during the war.
Many thanks, for any help. Im currently having a range of 20mm figures sculpted to cover the war and will happily show you them when they are done.
Best wishes,
Piers
My name is Piers and Im a wargamer based in Ireland. I have always had a fascination with conflicts involving India and I am currently building up forces to refight the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971.
I am hoping some of the knowledgable people on this forum may be able to help me out a little.
While I have several good sources, Im having trouble finding out unit compositions/TOEs for...
Indian Infantry Platoon/Company/Battalion (is this the same as a 1944 British formation?)
Indian Armoured units (especially the difference, if any, between those with T-55s, Centurions and Shermans)
Indian Artillery Formations
Im also after the same for the Pakistani Army.
I would also like to know how Indian and Pakistani armoured infantry units were built? Did they have the same TOE as ormal units or did they differ?
Also Im trying to find a complete list of vehicles used by the Indian Army and their Pakistani enemies. While I have most things covered Im finding references to a few things that seem incorrect.
One is the Indian 70th (?) Armoured Regiment (?) using SS-11s. The SS-11 I have come across is the missile armed AMX-13 variant and I cant find reference to these having been exported. I have found a comment that they were equipped with some form of armoured car with an improvised mount for the SS-11 ATGW.
Im also looking for details of the 10th Para Commando and their jeeps.
Basically, Im after any information (and also pictures, especially those not often seen on the net) that can help me build up a picture of how Indian and Pakistani units were comprised during the war.
Many thanks, for any help. Im currently having a range of 20mm figures sculpted to cover the war and will happily show you them when they are done.
Best wishes,
Piers
Re: Help with research on the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War
Oops...
One other query too...
What infantry Anti-Tank weapons did the Indian Army field in 1971?
One other query too...
What infantry Anti-Tank weapons did the Indian Army field in 1971?
Re: Help with research on the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War
Piers wrote: Im also looking for details of the 10th Para Commando and their jeeps.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 6.jpg.html
Composition of the INfantry and Armoured Units should be the same as the British Compositions
This would help
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... ut=default
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Many thanks.
Re: Help with research on the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War
May be this will help.Piers wrote: Basically, Im after any information (and also pictures, especially those not often seen on the net) that can help me build up a picture of how Indian and Pakistani units were comprised during the war.
An Atlas of the 1971 India - Pakistan War: The Creation of Bangladesh by John H. Gill ---- PDF.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
I already have the Gill book and it is very useful for the OOBs... Im after info on the actual breakdown of formations, as in what weapons were used, AA Assets per battalion and how Machine Guns were grouped.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
I suggest you spend some time on these subsections of website - Orbat.com:Piers wrote:I already have the Gill book and it is very useful for the OOBs... Im after info on the actual breakdown of formations, as in what weapons were used, AA Assets per battalion and how Machine Guns were grouped.
http://orbat.com/site/cimh/index.html
http://orbat.com/site/history/1946-99/index.html
It covers historical background on the evolution of some of the regiments as well as details of some battles along with Orbat of opposing forces in 1965 and 1971 war.
Jagan has already pointed yout to the TO&E of Infantry and Armored units. Please let us know what else you might require.
Re: Help with research on the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War
From what I've heard, HH Bhawani Singhji had purchased some Land Rovers out of his own pocket for the unit. They also had Jongas, with large gas tanks to increase the range. And balloon tires for travelling in the sand.Piers wrote: Im also looking for details of the 10th Para Commando and their jeeps.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Pure speculation unless backed up with some factsFrom what I've heard, HH Bhawani Singhji had purchased some Land Rovers out of his own pocket for the unit.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Hence, I guess the "From what I've heard", i'm sure.Surya wrote:Pure speculation unless backed up with some factsFrom what I've heard, HH Bhawani Singhji had purchased some Land Rovers out of his own pocket for the unit.
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Was I there to observe it first-hand? No. But this is what I was told by people who took part in the raids.Surya wrote:Pure speculation unless backed up with some factsFrom what I've heard, HH Bhawani Singhji had purchased some Land Rovers out of his own pocket for the unit.
I scanned the other threads in this forum. I don't see you jumping in with your "pure speculation" response anywhere else. Do you have a problem with what I said? Do you have any evidence to
the contrary? I didn't think so.
Re: Help with research on the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War
Please do share some pics of the figures - it would be really cool!Piers wrote: Many thanks, for any help. Im currently having a range of 20mm figures sculpted to cover the war and will happily show you them when they are done.
Re: Help with research on the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War
RB, he has posted some nice snaps in modeling thread. have a look.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 62#p822462
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 62#p822462
just curious, are you the same person who has created a set to wargame the alexander vs puru/porus scenario ? your figures look vaguely familiar.Piers wrote:...
Re: Indian Army History Thread
Was I there to observe it first-hand? No. But this is what I was told by people who took part in the raids.
Yes I have a problem with what you said - because this kind of sounds like glorifying an individual unnecessarily.
Err you claim - you have to prove.
But if you cannot no need to get worked up