ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

[Anujan]

I Still claim that ABL is ineffective against solid fuelled missiles. May be it time for you to know the proper meaning of INEffective. Ineffective != Cant use. those BM manuevers during boost phase are known as evasive manuevers if you dont know.

Why exactly are they ineffective? And which country's missiles do evasive maneuvers during *boost phase* ?

[sunilUpa]

Yawn..first you claim you can't use AML on solid fuel missiles, when real fact is pointed out you claim it is useful only to shoot down your own missile..
Sure have it your way.
I didn't claim ABL doesn't have any disadvantage, merely pointed out that what you have claimed is proven to be wrong and one only had to read the news report to find that fact.
By the way which Ballistic missile maneuvers during boost phase. As person involved with programs similar to ABL you should surely know that ABL was intended to shoot down missiles in boost phase not during re-entry.

I Still claim that ABL is ineffective against solid fuelled missiles.
May be it time for you to know the proper meaning of INEffective.
Ineffective != Cant use.

those BM manuevers during boost phase are known as evasive manuevers if you dont know.
A manuever is not about pulling G`s all the time.It is about taking critical decision to evade a threat.
Since the day those ABM people started working on interceptors to take on BM during boost phase,the BM developers developed counters to evade boost phase interceptors.
If you dont know= its not there/possible??

May be you should also need to know why many others stopped building similar ABL`s when nations with BM`s jumped into solid fuels and started possessing other counter-measures.

No I do not know which of the currently deployed missiles are capable of 'evasive manuevers' during boost phase. Please provide reference.

If you are pointing to limitation of boost phase interception as a whole, Yes I do agree.

[sunilUpa]

I Still claim that ABL is ineffective against solid fuelled missiles. May be it time for you to know the proper meaning of INEffective. Ineffective != Cant use. those BM manuevers during boost phase are known as evasive manuevers if you dont know.

Why exactly are they ineffective? And which country's missiles do evasive maneuvers during *boost phase* ?

There is good study conducted by APS in early 90's (? not sure on timing here)on problems of boost phase interception. That's where they claimed ABL is 'will not be able to disable solid fueled missile in the time available for interception. The Feb 3 test prooved that it is possible.

[jaladipc]

TOPOL-M Does AFAIK. It produces an oscillating pattern and is developed to counter boost phase interception in mind.
I was told that A-III can do the same. The oscillating pattern to confuse the ABM interceptor.
Many American and French(M-51 does that)

this boost phase countering is nothing new.henceforth are the countermeasures.

Again AFAIK,A-IV will have more enhanced features.

[jaladipc]

I Still claim that ABL is ineffective against solid fuelled missiles. May be it time for you to know the proper meaning of INEffective. Ineffective != Cant use. those BM manuevers during boost phase are known as evasive manuevers if you dont know.

Why exactly are they ineffective?

Why exactly?
Not just one reason.
It can be because of the highly applied reflective coatings or heat resistive materials employed in the casings.
It can be due to the roll of the missile to ensure that the heating at a particular point doesnt happen.
It can be due to the composition of fuel used.
It can be due to the blooming effect on lasers,.........

[jaladipc]

There is good study conducted by APS in early 90's (? not sure on timing here)on problems of boost phase interception. That's where they claimed ABL is 'will not be able to disable solid fueled missile in the time available for interception. The Feb 3 test prooved that it is possible.

Again,there is nothing personal here.
but I was putting my views and opinions.
Can you tell me the specifications of the solid fuel missile being intercepted by ABL?
Is that a primitive variant or the one that features known ABL counter measures?

[D Roy]

They lased a couple of old sounding rockets. nothing great. One of them was not "fried" deliberately apparently. they were happy with just ranging. Those are the "solid fuel" tests.

the test that everybody is talking about is a scud type liquid fuelled missile.

[vasu_ray]

orbiting kill vehicles in the 200-300km orbit which may be good to stay in orbit for a few months, during a crisis aren't they a good option to hit a slowing BM as it approaches its max. height

the general direction of the threat is known, from TSP to India, a KV orbiting in the same direction can trail the BM

each MIRV bus hosting the KVs does more revolutions per day due to its low orbit which corresponds to dwell time over TSP and a constellation can effectively provide extended time window coverage

current Agni missiles are capable of putting such a MIRVed payload at a very short notice just before escalation of a crisis

AAD, PDV during terminal phase, the Kill vehicles during mid phase and when possible ABL for boost phase interception gives a solid multi layered defence against the BM threat

[SaiK]

Is it not possible to send high energy or laser weapons to destroy satellites? Would it blow these satellites apart or make them defunct by destroying the circuitry. If it is the later, then that is best choice for saving us from space debris.

Thinking further, a little holly-woodic, why not a reusable robotic arm with a thruster to change orbits and throw away all enemy sats outta their orbits into deep space? Dual use technology.

Another option would be to pull the orbiting satellite crashing down to a designated area on Earth.

[jaladipc]

^^^

Soviets gave a try to both kinds.
1) Having a CO2 laser in space to shoot down US sats in orbits.
the Orbital with HEL weapon is knows as SKIF-DM(demonstator/TD).It weighted a mere 80 tons
2) they considered another orbital project which carries interceptors instead of HEL.

both project went kaput due to economical mess.
But soviets were highly successful in lasing US sats from ground and made numerous sats non-functional.

Again, they considered a high power microwave beaming weapon to be put into space.Nothing fructified.

Yindoos had a similar program of having a beam weapon,but not using lasers

At the end of the day,all these offensive beam weapons laid the way to strengthen their respective offensive weapons.

Interceptors are the best IMHO dealing with an adversary with sophisticated arsenal.Beam weapons are good for a paki type lala land.

In dealing with pak,I would like to put a microwave injector of extremely high power on an An-124 type aircraft.And would use the weapon flying on our side of border and beaming it on all pakistani radars and aircrafts and all critical installation during peace time,once in a while.

Pakis will be lost in hell to find out what the hella happen with their systems.

[vasu_ray]

2) they considered another orbital project which carries interceptors instead of HEL.

both project went kaput due to economical mess.

our scale is limited since we will be facing a low tech paki arsenal (doesn't need multi layered defense) and a Chinese arsenal that is divided between US and us. Even in that limited scale the cost of a KV (including its launch) will outweigh the cost of any IRBM, ICBM.

In dealing with pak,I would like to put a microwave injector of extremely high power on an An-124 type aircraft

Hope we see such a system in our arsenal soon

[Craig Alpert]

US, Israel Start Development of New Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle for Arrow-3

The U.S. and Israel have started development of an upper-stage component to Israel’s Arrow-3 missile defense architecture. Arieh Herzog, director of Israel’s missile defense program, says the main element will be a highly maneuverable exoatmospheric interceptor that zeros in on an incoming missile.The decision to add the component, which will be jointly developed by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Boeing, stems from a study conducted in 2006‑07 that identified a need for it in Israel’s ballistic missile defense system.

Meanwhile, given the urgent need to meet the growing ballistic missile threat from Iran, IAI is pressing ahead with the Arrow-3 antiballistic missile, the development of which is being funded partly by the U.S. IAI displayed a full-sized model of the two-stage Arrow-3 at the Paris air show last year. It is slightly smaller than the Arrow-2 missile in service, but is designed to engage and intercept clusters of hostile missiles at higher altitudes in the upper atmosphere. Uri Sinai, general manager of IAI’s missile division, says the Arrow-3 will be the world’s first multitiered, unified antimissile system, providing Israel’s Homa national missile-defense strategy with an effective exoatmospheric kill vehicle (KV)

[D_Prem]

It seems that whenever I've done a little bit of googling about ABM systems around the world, people in various forums/sites are of the opinion that S-400 is best "in-service" option....then why is it that we haven't acquired this baby yet?

Is it that DRDO is once again shoving its fist down our government's throat to opt for a home grown option rather than an off-the-shelf videsi alternative?

As you can probably tell I am no fan of DRDO, but I must concede that they have made good progress on our own ABM, however, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and DRDO is still quite a few years away (at best 2-3) before its ABM gets inducted into the armed forces.

Besides the advantages of S-400 far outweigh the merits of DRDO's PAD/AAD...
1) S-400 can intercept cruise missiles while PAD (cant) / AAD (iffy on this one)
2) S-400 has a much longer interception range - 400 KMs - thats pretty much the breadth of Pukiland...essentially meaning we can target their Chini-tin cans in their boost stage - much before they re-enter into Indian airspace.
3) S-400 can even target stealth aircraft - so any ch-pk fighters would become cannon fodder.
4) S-400 has already been deployed - our system may need a 1-2more years - best case - (this is based on the 2011 date that I've seen for PAD Phase-1 induction). Besides even if we are hell bent on eventually using a home grown option, S-400 wouldnt be a bad option to fill in the void while indigenous platforms are readied.
5) S-400 can intercept IRBMs without much problem....PAD/AAD still needs to be augmented to intercept missiles with 1500-2000 KM range - essentially putting all of TSP's missiles out of commission.

So in absence of much discussion of an obvious weapon system like the S-400 I am tempted to draw two conclusions:
a) We are too confident of DRDO's babu-scientists and their incredible talents and they have developed some ground breaking ABM technology - essentially voiding the need to buy the S-400 --- (highly unlikely, but then again they have scored 3/3 in the ABM tests so far)
b) We secretly already acquired this beast --- and for obvious reasons aren't parading its acquisition in the media.

Ideally I would like both a) and b) to be true -- especially b).

PS: What surprises me is that BR members have also been quite conspicuously missing in discussing the S-400 - even more so because at the end of the day when the missiles start flying, it'll be these systems that will dictate the odds of our survivability.

[Austin]

^^^^ S-400 could possibly do tons of thing but how will it benefit us , unless we custom build our own ABM system and learn from it ,no S-300/400/Arrow/Patriot can help our folks in designing ,developing and building our system there is a learning curve and some day we have to do it and DRDO has done a fine job with the ABM program

[D_Prem]

No doubt we have to learn, but learning takes time, especially when you are DRDO....and judging by the neighbors we are blessed with, time is really not a luxury - so until learning isn't complete there should be a fall-back option.

But this still does steer the conversation away from the merits of the S-400 - I hope there are other BR members who see the point.

[Rahul M]

back in the 90's we had evaluated the S-300 and it came short of requirements. we tried to get the israeli arrow but that was blocked by unkil. our ABM program started post pokhran-2.

before I go about answering your post, is there a valid reason we should buy off-the-shelf any and every fancy weapon system out there ?

Besides the advantages of S-400 far outweigh the merits of DRDO's PAD/AAD...

{you are missing the point. PAD/AAD and future desi ABM systems/missiles are NOT built to beat the S-400 specs on paper, they are built to meet India's specific requirements.}
1) S-400 can intercept cruise missiles while PAD (cant) / AAD (iffy on this one)

{because it's not meant to. AAD can but is unlikely to be used for that purpose. we will use barak-NG/akash to shoot down CMs.
using a very very expensive SAM to shoot down a cheap subsonic cruise missiles that costs a fifth of its cost is something we can't afford. and before you ask, we will NEVER be able to afford the S-400 etc in enough numbers for all those roles. it's simply not cost effective.}
2) S-400 has a much longer interception range - 400 KMs - thats pretty much the breadth of Pukiland...essentially meaning we can target their Chini-tin cans in their boost stage - much before they re-enter into Indian airspace.
{longer wrt what ? PAD/AAD ? do you know their ranges ?
all we have till date are altitude figures for PAD/AAD which are 80km/30km. the altitude figures I've seen for S-400 are a little lower in the 60km/30km or the same at 85km/30km range. the reason why range figures are quoted for s-300 and co but not for PAD/AAD is that unlike the S-300 family those are not meant to intercept slow moving aircrafts and cruise missiles, for which range is the primary metric since altitude is always within a known envelope.
I'll let you draw your own conclusions from that. remember that superior altitude usually translates to superior range.
AFAIK S-400 radar has a tracking range of about 500 km and engagement range of around 400 km. please correct me if I'm wrong. the swordfish LRTR has a tracking range of 600 km and a future version is intended to have a 1500km range}

3) S-400 can even target stealth aircraft - so any ch-pk fighters would become cannon fodder. {that's a loose statement. while it's true some VLF radars claim good performance against VLO aircraft, it is by no means 100% proven, the serbia F-117 incident notwithstanding. secondly, as of now neither PLAAF nor PAF is even close to deploying a LO aircraft, forget VLO. right now it's not an issue as far as we are concerned. by the time the need arises I'm pretty certain we will have developed the required systems by then. in fact I hope we don't go for the S-series kind of stop-gap solution and develop a full fledged bi-static radar based system}

4) S-400 has already been deployed - our system may need a 1-2more years - best case - (this is based on the 2011 date that I've seen for PAD Phase-1 induction). Besides even if we are hell bent on eventually using a home grown option, S-400 wouldnt be a bad option to fill in the void while indigenous platforms are readied.
{we have only so much money to throw at mil stuff, we can't just buy everything that's there on the market for this reason and that. think of what happens to the logistics too.}
5) S-400 can intercept IRBMs without much problem....PAD/AAD still needs to be augmented to intercept missiles with 1500-2000 KM range - essentially putting all of TSP's missiles out of commission. {and they will be augmented}

----------------

No doubt we have to learn, but learning takes time, especially when you are DRDO

everyone else completes learning in a day or two I guess ?

[Nalla Baalu]

Off-topic Alert:

It is not my intention to sound pedagogic.

Any institution in india is representative of our collective selves. But, why are some of us bent upon indulging in needless self-flagellation.

Poster's intentions may be noble, but IMO the statement qouted below is insensitive and is an affront to ladies/gentlemen who strive or have strived all their lives to provide our MIC the capabilities it has against great odds.

No doubt we have to learn, but learning takes time, especially when you are DRDO....

[Craig Alpert]

Israel's 'miracle' anti-rocket defense plan raises anxieties
some snippets!

Last month, the Israeli government said it was on the cusp of a technological breakthrough that would put such fears and precautions in the past. A new anti-rocket defense system, called Iron Dome, was presented as a high-tech umbrella that would allow Israelis to go about their lives while short-range rockets fired from Palestinian territories or Arab neighbors were blasted out of the sky.

But despite promising results in a much-touted test in January, Iron Dome so far has heightened as many tensions as it was supposed to relieve. Critics say the technology is not fast enough to work in cities such as Sderot, which is only a mile from militant strongholds in the Gaza Strip.

Some officials, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, question the steep cost: as much as $1 billion for development and nationwide deployment.

Others warn against seeking technological solutions for threats better handled diplomatically.

"It's no silver bullet," said Yiftah Shapir, head of the military balance project at Israel's Institute for National Security Studies. "In fact, it's not going to solve any of our problems."

Military officials this month began hinting that Iron Dome's initial deployment this summer would be smaller than expected and would focus on protecting military installations rather than Sderot, which many assumed would be the first town to benefit.
...............
The system uses radar to detect a rocket launch, quickly computes whether the projectile is headed toward people or buildings, and then dispatches an interceptor missile to destroy it. Rockets headed toward open spaces are allowed through. Similar technologies have been designed by the U.S. and others to knock out mid- and long-range projectiles, such as the Patriot surface-to-air missile system.

Some critics say such technology will not work against short-range rockets, which can strike in 15 seconds or less and at distances of less than two miles.

Based on the preliminary details released by Rafael, outside experts have concluded that Iron Dome requires at least 30 seconds to respond.

"A Kassam rocket can hit Sderot in about 14 seconds, so there's no way Iron Dome can defend it," said Reuven Pedatzur, a Tel Aviv University lecturer and defense analyst.

Pedatzur, a former air force fighter pilot, said defensive systems like Iron Dome aren't the right approach for dealing with short-range rockets.
........
The system is expensive. Each mobile battery costs about $25 million, according to Rafael. Interceptor missiles reportedly cost up to $50,000 apiece.

That compares with as little as $50 needed to construct each of the Kassam rockets favored by Palestinian militants, which are usually produced in low-tech factories using old pipes, fertilizer and scrap metal.

Netanyahu has praised Iron Dome as a technological "miracle," but he also referred to the system as "prohibitively expensive."

[John]

1) S-400 can intercept cruise missiles while PAD (cant) / AAD (iffy on this one)

S-400 actually consists of 4 different missiles 9m96 are the ones designed to intercept cruise missiles.

That said the big problem with S-400 is price tag each system composed of 8 launchers is quoted at around 330 million. This figure most likely does not include the 48N6DM (big missile), so it makes very expensive to get couple regiments to protect India.

[Kailash]

1) S-400 can intercept cruise missiles while PAD (cant) / AAD (iffy on this one)

{because it's not meant to. AAD can but is unlikely to be used for that purpose. we will use barak-NG/akash to shoot down CMs.
using a very very expensive SAM to shoot down a cheap subsonic cruise missiles that costs a fifth of its cost is something we can't afford.

Cruise missiles will be for specific high-value targets which can be fortified with local Akash batteries and Rajendra/3dcar than an LRTR and batteries of PAD/AAD (overkill). Moreover we may have other resources to neutralize CMs from the air & ground.

BTW, is there any efforts to network the radar inputs from Aerostats/AWACS/Fighters etc to our BDM? how far in development is the LRTR with 1500km range?

[vasu_ray]

there was talk of all equipment to be network aware by mid 2010 and network centric by 2012 from the IAF chief recently, donno about the navy or the army

[Craig Alpert]

The USA’s Missile Defense Advanced Technology Innovation (ATI) Program

[SagarP]

India likely to testfire AAD missile on Sunday

[Nihat]

Intresting.

So this interception will take place at an even lower altitude than the previously held Endo-atmospheric tests. Does this imply that we could have potentially 3 layed security against incoming ballistic missiles including Exo, Endo and ADD.

[KiranM]

Intresting.

So this interception will take place at an even lower altitude than the previously held Endo-atmospheric tests. Does this imply that we could have potentially 3 layed security against incoming ballistic missiles including Exo, Endo and ADD.

I think it was mis-spelt in latter half of the article. It is AAD. Advanced Air Defence (AAD) = Endo atmospheric defence as Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) = exo-atmospheric defence.

[ankit-s]

Intresting.

So this interception will take place at an even lower altitude than the previously held Endo-atmospheric tests. Does this imply that we could have potentially 3 layed security against incoming ballistic missiles including Exo, Endo and ADD.

Missile defense can take place either inside (endoatmospheric) or outside (exoatmospheric) the Earth's atmosphere. The trajectory of most ballistic missiles takes them inside and outside the Earth's atmosphere, and they can be intercepted either place

BTW ADD also means Air Defense District.

[Hari Seldon]

India likely to test-fire ADD missile tomorrow

With an eye to develop a full fledged multi-layer Ballistic Missile Defence system, India is likely to test-fire its indigenously designed and developed Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Orissa coast on Sunday.

The AAD missile is capable of destroying any hostile ballistic missile at low altitude situation, defence sources said on Saturday.

Range integration work at the ITR for the proposed trial is complete and the test is likely to be conducted tomorrow, they said.

The target missile, a modified indigenously built 'Prithvi' posing as an enemy missile, would first be lifted off from a mobile launcher from the ITR at Chandipur-on-sea and the interceptor AAD missile using a radio frequency seeker on-board would be blasted off from Wheeler Island about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur.

The missile would destroy the target in mid air over Bay of Bengal. The interception is to take place at low altitude, the sources added.

[D_Prem]

Good luck to DRDO. Hoping for the best for tommorow

[juvva]

Hindu news story on AAD test expected today:

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 244339.ece

[Rony]

India successfully test-fired Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile from Orissa coast

India successfully test-fired its indigenously designed and developed Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile at 10.10am from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Orissa coast on Sunday.The target missile, a modified indigenously built 'Prithvi' posing as an enemy missile, lifted off from a mobile launcher from the ITR at Chandipur-on-sea and the interceptor AAD missile using a radio frequency seeker on-board blasted off from Wheeler Island about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur.

This is the fourth such test being carried out by scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation. At least 3,000 ( 2474 adult and 746 minors of 400 families of 5 villages have been shifted to temporary camps at Khadipahi School, and Kalimandap. They will provide Rs 130/- per Adult members, Rs 65/- to each minors , Rs 25/- each for Fooding and Rs 10/- and Rs 5/- for entertainment . They will also be provided Rs 10/- for each animals. The Defence department has provided Rs 7 lakh to the district administration for the purpose.

[Nihat]

Hoping to hear more news filtering in now regarding the details.

[csharma]

The report does not mention whether the AAD hit the target or not.

[juvva]

India successfully test-fired Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile from Orissa coast

India successfully test-fired its indigenously designed and developed Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile at 10.10am from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Orissa coast on Sunday.The target missile, a modified indigenously built 'Prithvi' posing as an enemy missile, lifted off from a mobile launcher from the ITR at Chandipur-on-sea and the interceptor AAD missile using a radio frequency seeker on-board blasted off from Wheeler Island about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur.

This is the fourth such test being carried out by scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation. At least 3,000 ( 2474 adult and 746 minors of 400 families of 5 villages have been shifted to temporary camps at Khadipahi School, and Kalimandap. They will provide Rs 130/- per Adult members, Rs 65/- to each minors , Rs 25/- each for Fooding and Rs 10/- and Rs 5/- for entertainment . They will also be provided Rs 10/- for each animals. The Defence department has provided Rs 7 lakh to the district administration for the purpose.

The above link now says test postponed:

"...It was orginally sheduled to test on Sunday Morning 10 am but Interceptor missile test postponed till 2 pm today...."

confusing!!!

[juvva]

test postponed to monday:

http://www.timesnow.tv/Technical-snag-d ... 340581.cms

[sum]

test postponed to monday:

http://www.timesnow.tv/Technical-snag-d ... 340581.cms

Usually, such wordplay means test failure ( going by similar confusing reports during the A-II failures). Else, there is no reason for a initial report saying missile was test fired successfully to appear.

[juvva]

test postponed to monday:

http://www.timesnow.tv/Technical-snag-d ... 340581.cms

Usually, such wordplay means test failure ( going by similar confusing reports during the A-II failures). Else, there is no reason for a initial report saying missile was test fired successfully to appear.

Hopefully not all that bad this time around, Hindu/PTI confirming test postponement:

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 244769.ece

[Nihat]

test postponed to monday:

http://www.timesnow.tv/Technical-snag-d ... 340581.cms

Usually, such wordplay means test failure ( going by similar confusing reports during the A-II failures). Else, there is no reason for a initial report saying missile was test fired successfully to appear.

not really ,during A-2 failures we were told that test has been held and results are being analyzed. This delay might be due to anything from weather conditions to safety parameteres. Maybe since it's a low level interception test, they want to be extra careful.

Besides, it's only delayed by a day - dosen't seem like a big issue

[SaiK]

imho, postponement of AAD should not be weather related. it defeats the requirement then.

[Gerard]

Interceptor missile test postponed

The test had to be postponed due to delay in assembly and operation of the one of the sub-systems. Since the delay had led to overshooting the specified time allotted by the civil aviation authorities, the exercise had to be deferred.

The officials said it would be held on Monday after getting fresh clearance from the civil aviation authorities.

[abhishek_sharma]

CNN-IBN: AAD test fired