merlin wrote:Timing, quality, support - those are not really issues when dealing with unkil stuff. Sanctions, EUAs and other "political" stuff is.
Couldn't agree more...Two sides of a coin I guess.
merlin wrote:Timing, quality, support - those are not really issues when dealing with unkil stuff. Sanctions, EUAs and other "political" stuff is.
http://www.forecastinternational.com/ar ... t14035.doc.* Dassault has withdrawn the Mirage 2000 from India’s Multirole Combat Aircraft program; Mirage was sole application for Snecma’s M53 engine
* Engine upgrade kits may be installed on significant number of existing Mirages in service with several air forces
* No engine production forecast, since it has effectively ceased
Marten wrote:The last week of Feb is nigh... any news on the first flight of the LCH? Looks like it will be a low key event with post-partum coverage. My poor BIL is tired of my constant "carry your camera and tripod to the terrace" emails. I cannot wait to get back and see that lovely bird in action. Still remember being thrilled to bits on seeing the Dhruv take to the air and do its thing over CV Raman Nagar and KGDpura.
CM I have a question relating to the matter of injun change...with the big fancy upgrade the new systems would they be requiring more power (I would imagine so given the extent of the upgrade) If this is the case then indeed it might end up needing an injun change as the avionics might chew up some of the badly needed juice from the M53...JMTCain Marko wrote:Re. Mirage 2000 upgrade. When will the M53s need to be replaced? If the aircraft is to last another 20 year (2035), won't the engines need a change? Does Snecma still produce the M53?
CM.
Added l85: Wokay, to answer partly, from forecast intl:http://www.forecastinternational.com/ar ... t14035.doc.* Dassault has withdrawn the Mirage 2000 from India’s Multirole Combat Aircraft program; Mirage was sole application for Snecma’s M53 engine
* Engine upgrade kits may be installed on significant number of existing Mirages in service with several air forces
* No engine production forecast, since it has effectively ceased
Boss,andy B wrote:
CM I have a question relating to the matter of injun change...with the big fancy upgrade the new systems would they be requiring more power (I would imagine so given the extent of the upgrade) If this is the case then indeed it might end up needing an injun change as the avionics might chew up some of the badly needed juice from the M53...JMT
In the case of the Indian Air Force, its allocation of Rs.15,803 crore is Rs.529 crore higher than the revised allocation of Rs.15,274 crore for the previous fiscal and Rs.892 crore higher than the original figure.
99% of the time, the generator runs off a gearbox with a spindle drive.Singha wrote:on that note, how are aircraft generators run - is it a small turbine fed by bypass air from the intake? or a gearbox converts the rotating main engine shaft to appropriate speed and turns the generator spindle?
photos?
To me ... it is wastage of money. We should try to reduce the number of fighter types by decommissioning gradually the old planes (Mig21, 23....., Mirage, Jaguars). We should concentrate on upgarded Mig29 (no a fan but we have signed contract to upgrade), Su30MKI, LCA, MMRCA, MCA and 5th gen fighters.Cain Marko wrote:Re. Mirage 2000 upgrade. When will the M53s need to be replaced? If the aircraft is to last another 20 year (2035), won't the engines need a change? Does Snecma still produce the M53?
CM.
Added l85: Wokay, to answer partly, from forecast intl:http://www.forecastinternational.com/ar ... t14035.doc.* Dassault has withdrawn the Mirage 2000 from India’s Multirole Combat Aircraft program; Mirage was sole application for Snecma’s M53 engine
* Engine upgrade kits may be installed on significant number of existing Mirages in service with several air forces
* No engine production forecast, since it has effectively ceased
But I doubt we need to discard them right away ... but replace gradually (in one decade, some has to be replaced before the others). In favour of having the common fighter planes and keeping the numbers healthy. Could doAditya_V wrote:Rkumar_> Nos, if we kill mirage upgarde then we will need to add nos to MRCA, which will mean further delays and shortage in IAF aircraft.t
Rememeber CAG will not allow IAF to order aircraft without a labourious tender process in place.
Jags have to perform the strike role. We Dont have enough money to replace so many aircraft in a short period of time.
If wishes were courses we would rather be buying 200 PAK-FA's, 400 Su-30's and 400 LCA by 2015 but not practically possible.
Digital displays coupled with analogous ones.Rahul M wrote:HJT-36 cockpit http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... C05452.jpg
courtesy livefist.
that depends on whether or not the system is in production..for new projects, there is an equal risk of delays. Just look at the F-35 or the Wedgetail for the RAAF. Luckily for the IN, the P-8 program is progressing smoothly on time and budget.shukla wrote: Thats one of the plus side of ordering from uncle Sam I guess.. At least orders guaranteed 'on time' (if not before time)..
you asked CM but I may venture to answer- the cockpit displays on the Mirage-2000H/TH are the old cathode-ray tube types. They're far heavier than the new generation AMLCD type displays that the upgrade will provide our Mirages with so that will reduce weight in fact. the internal SPJ will add weight since the current Mirage-2000 doesn't have one at all. rest of the stuff is basically newer electronics for existing electronics, which in general was heavier. The additional weight may not warrant any more engine power, since its essentially the same configuration as the Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 and those still had the M-53-P2 engines only and did fine.andyB wrote: CM I have a question relating to the matter of injun change...with the big fancy upgrade the new systems would they be requiring more power (I would imagine so given the extent of the upgrade) If this is the case then indeed it might end up needing an injun change as the avionics might chew up some of the badly needed juice from the M53...JMT
why remove 3 squadron worth fighters when they have half their life left in them and that too ones which with an upgrade are upto par with the newest fighters the neighbours have ? Mirage-2000-5s in European exercises are known to have thumped F-16s and are generally very highly regarded fighters. With established infrastructure for handling on ground and overhaul at HAL, it would be foolish to just throw them away and without an upgrade they're fast losing their competitiveness against the newer F-16s that PAF is inducting and those its upgrading as well. What the IAF is getting for $40 million per Mirage is not only an very capable fighter that will last 2 more decades, but also its weapons package.RKumar wrote: To me ... it is wastage of money. We should try to reduce the number of fighter types by decommissioning gradually the old planes (Mig21, 23....., Mirage, Jaguars). We should concentrate on upgarded Mig29 (no a fan but we have signed contract to upgrade), Su30MKI, LCA, MMRCA, MCA and 5th gen fighters.
I know some will say mirage performed really well during 1999 but that is already 11 years in past. And our adversaries are also moving to new gen planes. So should kill Mirage and Jaguars updates and may be go for more LCA\MMRCA planes.
Doesn't the same go for the SH's,C-17's,C-130J's and other equipment lined up for procurement from the US? I think apart from the P-8i & E-2D Hawkeye (which the IN seems to be interested in), all the other system are current & in production right?Kartik wrote: Luckily for the IN, the P-8 program is progressing smoothly on time and budget.
oh yes, for the equipment that India is looking at which are in production already, the US will supply them in time for sure. My point was that for in-development systems, US is also vulnerable to technical issues or some unforseen problems causing delays. However, they have an advantage that when they do come across such an obstacle, the large US defence firms simply throw huge sums of money to get them resolved. Defence firms in other smaller nations may have a tougher time in those situations.shukla wrote: Doesn't the same go for the SH's,C-17's,C-130J's and other equipment lined up for procurement from the US? I think apart from the P-8i & E-2D Hawkeye (which the IN seems to be interested in), all the other system are current & in production right?
the recent article mentioned that Dassault, Thales and MBDA were all together as part of a package- not a separate deal with Dassault and Thales to be followed by a separate arms package apart from the contract.Austin wrote:^^^ $40 million includes aircraft upgrade and Weapons package ?
Generally the Weapons package deal is signed separately , any confirmation that the deal includes weapons package and how much does aircraft upgrade and weapons cost separately.
article linkThe inking of the deal could be well be timed with French President Nicolas Sarkozy's proposed visit to India later in the year. The project has been hanging fire for the last few years because the package offered by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile supplier) was around 30% higher than what India was ready to pay.
Considering this is written by Rajat Pandit we will have to wait and see if more than one source can confirm this ( both the amount and what constitutes the upgrade ) may be pretty soon we will hear on this.Kartik wrote:the recent article mentioned that Dassault, Thales and MBDA were all together as part of a package- not a separate deal with Dassault and Thales to be followed by a separate arms package apart from the contract.
New Delhi: An Advanced Light helicopter "Dhruv" of the Indian Air Force on Saturday crash-landed in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district while rehearsing for the "Vayu Shakti" air power show to be held there on Sunday.
The helicopter was part of the Sarang Helicopter Display Team of the IAF and was rehearsing for tomorrow's air show, when the incident occurred, IAF officials said here.
"Both pilots are safe after they had to make a controlled crash-landing due to loss of power in the chopper," they added.
The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry to look into the reasons behind the incident, the officials said.
In 2005, the entire ALH Dhruv fleet had been grounded for several months after a similar incident in Andhra Pradesh and the subsequent probe had found a fault with the tail rotor blades of the choppers.
On whether the display team comprising four ALH Dhruvs will take part in the air show on Sunday, for which the President and the defence minister are also coming, they said, "Sarang's participation is not yet cancelled."
but never a comprehensive list of the subsystems that is being made part of this upgrade.“Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters.”
Sorry. OT
There is this report from Shiv Aroor. Well not report as such but does give some info.maitya wrote:Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed ).
shiv wrote:Sorry. OT
Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?
If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread..
I dont know about the regular run of the mill - strat stuff - but on this particular subject - I am in touch with a couple of famlilies involvied in tracking down these crash sites and they have been fairly appreciateive and grateful of the cooperation extended by India - and access to the restricted areas (most of the crash sites are in the NE which are restricted to the phoreners . if any they seem to be quite critical of the US government for not doing as much as they should.shiv wrote:Sorry. OT
Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?
If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread..
My guess is that the outrageous $ 40 million price tag is as much a result of French weapon/missile prices as the cost of the upgrade itself! The upgrade in terms of the aircraft in itself hardly seems anything groundbreaking.maitya wrote:
Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?
Only time will tell I guess!!
We cannot expect news items - as in news paper reports. The reporters themselves may or may not understand the import of such a situation.shiv wrote:Sorry. OT
Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?
If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread..
satya wrote:Order for additional MKIs not being dropped but wont be made another media circus when Putin comes , instructions to keep defense purchase low key affair str8 from top .
to add to your comprehensive list- I think, though this is just my opinion, that the airframe may be strengthened as well to add hard-points. This Mirage-2000 layout shows the number of hard-points on the Mirage-2000H/TH and this pic shows the number of hard-points on the -5. The -2000H has one of these hard-points rated for ~200kg to carry a LDP, but it may be beefed up to carry an AAM and its pylon in addition to adding another to the other side.maitya wrote:Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed ).
However there's has been some confirmatory comments like,but never a comprehensive list of the subsystems that is being made part of this upgrade.“Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters.”
So here's another attempt:
1) Radar - RDY MK2
2) New Missile system - MICA (including IR version)
3) Countermeasure - Integrated countermeasures system (ICMS) Mk4 from Thomson-CSF
4) Navigation - Sextant Avionique’s Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS
5) Datalink - Joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS)
6) HMS - Topsight E helmet-mounted sight/display
7) Cockpit Display and MC - Rafale's MDPU
8 ) A brand new 1553 digibus
But nothing really new to the AG capability - IAF seems to be happy with their Litening-II pods.
Also no confirmation on,
1) any active or passive MAWS - atleast DDM-SAMIR/DDM-NG type IR based system
2) any internal SPJ
3) no IRST system (this is confirmed)
So, prima facie, this French-Indian consortium including Dassault (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator), MBDA (missiles) and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited based upgrade is a very very comprehensive upgrade (specially on the AA areas).
Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?
Only time will tell I guess!!