Indian Military Aviation

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shukla
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shukla »

merlin wrote:Timing, quality, support - those are not really issues when dealing with unkil stuff. Sanctions, EUAs and other "political" stuff is.

Couldn't agree more...Two sides of a coin I guess.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

Re. Mirage 2000 upgrade. When will the M53s need to be replaced? If the aircraft is to last another 20 year (2035), won't the engines need a change? Does Snecma still produce the M53?

CM.

Added l85: Wokay, to answer partly, from forecast intl:
* Dassault has withdrawn the Mirage 2000 from India’s Multirole Combat Aircraft program; Mirage was sole application for Snecma’s M53 engine
* Engine upgrade kits may be installed on significant number of existing Mirages in service with several air forces
* No engine production forecast, since it has effectively ceased
http://www.forecastinternational.com/ar ... t14035.doc.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by chetak »

Marten wrote:The last week of Feb is nigh... any news on the first flight of the LCH? Looks like it will be a low key event with post-partum coverage. My poor BIL is tired of my constant "carry your camera and tripod to the terrace" emails. I cannot wait to get back and see that lovely bird in action. Still remember being thrilled to bits on seeing the Dhruv take to the air and do its thing over CV Raman Nagar and KGDpura.

Dude, stop bullying your brother in law. :)

The LCH will not fly this month.

No firm dates but may be towards the middle of next month, hopefully!!.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

Cain Marko wrote:Re. Mirage 2000 upgrade. When will the M53s need to be replaced? If the aircraft is to last another 20 year (2035), won't the engines need a change? Does Snecma still produce the M53?

CM.

Added l85: Wokay, to answer partly, from forecast intl:
* Dassault has withdrawn the Mirage 2000 from India’s Multirole Combat Aircraft program; Mirage was sole application for Snecma’s M53 engine
* Engine upgrade kits may be installed on significant number of existing Mirages in service with several air forces
* No engine production forecast, since it has effectively ceased
http://www.forecastinternational.com/ar ... t14035.doc.
CM I have a question relating to the matter of injun change...with the big fancy upgrade the new systems would they be requiring more power (I would imagine so given the extent of the upgrade) If this is the case then indeed it might end up needing an injun change as the avionics might chew up some of the badly needed juice from the M53...JMT
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by chetak »

andy B wrote:
CM I have a question relating to the matter of injun change...with the big fancy upgrade the new systems would they be requiring more power (I would imagine so given the extent of the upgrade) If this is the case then indeed it might end up needing an injun change as the avionics might chew up some of the badly needed juice from the M53...JMT
Boss,

You can simply change to a more powerful generator.

Don't need to change the whole engine for a bit of extra juice.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

on that note, how are aircraft generators run - is it a small turbine fed by bypass air from the intake? or a gearbox converts the rotating main engine shaft to appropriate speed and turns the generator spindle?

photos?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kakarat »

Union Budget 2010: Govt raises defence allocation to Rs 147,344 cr
In the case of the Indian Air Force, its allocation of Rs.15,803 crore is Rs.529 crore higher than the revised allocation of Rs.15,274 crore for the previous fiscal and Rs.892 crore higher than the original figure.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:on that note, how are aircraft generators run - is it a small turbine fed by bypass air from the intake? or a gearbox converts the rotating main engine shaft to appropriate speed and turns the generator spindle?

photos?
99% of the time, the generator runs off a gearbox with a spindle drive.

Emergency power is sometimes from a RAT, Ram air turbine or usually an emergency battery sustaining emergency loads for a short duration only.

Some aircraft have auxiliary generators that run off their own small independent gas turbines mostly for ground use, to start engines, power limited air conditioning etc.

Some times, some of these independent auxiliary generators can also be run in the air depending on the design and intended purpose.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by RKumar »

Cain Marko wrote:Re. Mirage 2000 upgrade. When will the M53s need to be replaced? If the aircraft is to last another 20 year (2035), won't the engines need a change? Does Snecma still produce the M53?

CM.

Added l85: Wokay, to answer partly, from forecast intl:
* Dassault has withdrawn the Mirage 2000 from India’s Multirole Combat Aircraft program; Mirage was sole application for Snecma’s M53 engine
* Engine upgrade kits may be installed on significant number of existing Mirages in service with several air forces
* No engine production forecast, since it has effectively ceased
http://www.forecastinternational.com/ar ... t14035.doc.
To me ... it is wastage of money. We should try to reduce the number of fighter types by decommissioning gradually the old planes (Mig21, 23....., Mirage, Jaguars). We should concentrate on upgarded Mig29 (no a fan but we have signed contract to upgrade), Su30MKI, LCA, MMRCA, MCA and 5th gen fighters.

I know some will say mirage performed really well during 1999 but that is already 11 years in past. And our adversaries are also moving to new gen planes. So should kill Mirage and Jaguars updates and may be go for more LCA\MMRCA planes.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

Rkumar_> Nos, if we kill mirage upgarde then we will need to add nos to MRCA, which will mean further delays and shortage in IAF aircraft.t

Rememeber CAG will not allow IAF to order aircraft without a labourious tender process in place.

Jags have to perform the strike role. We Dont have enough money to replace so many aircraft in a short period of time.

If wishes were courses we would rather be buying 200 PAK-FA's, 400 Su-30's and 400 LCA by 2015 but not practically possible.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by RKumar »

Aditya_V wrote:Rkumar_> Nos, if we kill mirage upgarde then we will need to add nos to MRCA, which will mean further delays and shortage in IAF aircraft.t

Rememeber CAG will not allow IAF to order aircraft without a labourious tender process in place.

Jags have to perform the strike role. We Dont have enough money to replace so many aircraft in a short period of time.

If wishes were courses we would rather be buying 200 PAK-FA's, 400 Su-30's and 400 LCA by 2015 but not practically possible.
But I doubt we need to discard them right away ... but replace gradually (in one decade, some has to be replaced before the others). In favour of having the common fighter planes and keeping the numbers healthy. Could do

- To increase the number of MRCA to 200 for better deal as well as MRCA must be Multi-role capable. So replacing other types should not be problem.

- To increase the number of LCA Mk1 to 100 LCA, it will not only help to produce 20+ fighters a year but will also set up infrastructure for mk2 & MCA etc.

If CAG is problem for increasing the number of in first place for MRCA. It should not be a problem, to order MRCA as follow-on orders.
Last edited by RKumar on 26 Feb 2010 20:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by KrishG »

Rahul M wrote:HJT-36 cockpit http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... C05452.jpg

courtesy livefist.
Digital displays coupled with analogous ones.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

good enough for kiran replacements. in fact having a mix of digital and analogue instruments is probably part of IAF's ASR since these could be used for basic training too.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Bheem »

IAF to procure 181 basic trainer jets

Dil mange more import, import hi import, har tarf import :evil:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

shukla wrote: Thats one of the plus side of ordering from uncle Sam I guess.. At least orders guaranteed 'on time' (if not before time)..
that depends on whether or not the system is in production..for new projects, there is an equal risk of delays. Just look at the F-35 or the Wedgetail for the RAAF. Luckily for the IN, the P-8 program is progressing smoothly on time and budget.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

andyB wrote: CM I have a question relating to the matter of injun change...with the big fancy upgrade the new systems would they be requiring more power (I would imagine so given the extent of the upgrade) If this is the case then indeed it might end up needing an injun change as the avionics might chew up some of the badly needed juice from the M53...JMT
you asked CM but I may venture to answer- the cockpit displays on the Mirage-2000H/TH are the old cathode-ray tube types. They're far heavier than the new generation AMLCD type displays that the upgrade will provide our Mirages with so that will reduce weight in fact. the internal SPJ will add weight since the current Mirage-2000 doesn't have one at all. rest of the stuff is basically newer electronics for existing electronics, which in general was heavier. The additional weight may not warrant any more engine power, since its essentially the same configuration as the Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 and those still had the M-53-P2 engines only and did fine.

the engine will likely get a deep overhaul and that will be the extent of it.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

RKumar wrote: To me ... it is wastage of money. We should try to reduce the number of fighter types by decommissioning gradually the old planes (Mig21, 23....., Mirage, Jaguars). We should concentrate on upgarded Mig29 (no a fan but we have signed contract to upgrade), Su30MKI, LCA, MMRCA, MCA and 5th gen fighters.

I know some will say mirage performed really well during 1999 but that is already 11 years in past. And our adversaries are also moving to new gen planes. So should kill Mirage and Jaguars updates and may be go for more LCA\MMRCA planes.
why remove 3 squadron worth fighters when they have half their life left in them and that too ones which with an upgrade are upto par with the newest fighters the neighbours have ? Mirage-2000-5s in European exercises are known to have thumped F-16s and are generally very highly regarded fighters. With established infrastructure for handling on ground and overhaul at HAL, it would be foolish to just throw them away and without an upgrade they're fast losing their competitiveness against the newer F-16s that PAF is inducting and those its upgrading as well. What the IAF is getting for $40 million per Mirage is not only an very capable fighter that will last 2 more decades, but also its weapons package.

IMO, this is a great thing for the IAF.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

Andy, the only thing I'll add to Kartik's comprehensive answer (and I could be off) is that the M2k upgrade does not seem to be that revolutionary so as to require more power, i.e. it is probly similar to the -5/9 upgrade based on the noises so far. Now, if they had a high powered AESA + IRST somewhere it might require an upgrade - not as much for power issues but to offset the additional weight that would affect COG.

The engine has always been a bit on the underpowered side for the M2k, iirc they did play around with the M53 - P3 with slightly more thrust, but nothing like a 12-15 ton monster from their stable yet.

What potential the Mirage 2000 had, if only the russkis had built it! :cry: :twisted: Still, the weapons upgrade sounds interesting - gives the IAF decent amount of diversity. I wonder if they will also integrate the Astra now that the Mica seems to be a done deal? also, it'll be interesting to see if the IAF gets any uber A2G munitions ala Apache, AASM or Scalp, iirc the IAF seemed quite interested.

CM
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shukla »

Kartik wrote: Luckily for the IN, the P-8 program is progressing smoothly on time and budget.
Doesn't the same go for the SH's,C-17's,C-130J's and other equipment lined up for procurement from the US? I think apart from the P-8i & E-2D Hawkeye (which the IN seems to be interested in), all the other system are current & in production right?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

shukla wrote: Doesn't the same go for the SH's,C-17's,C-130J's and other equipment lined up for procurement from the US? I think apart from the P-8i & E-2D Hawkeye (which the IN seems to be interested in), all the other system are current & in production right?
oh yes, for the equipment that India is looking at which are in production already, the US will supply them in time for sure. My point was that for in-development systems, US is also vulnerable to technical issues or some unforseen problems causing delays. However, they have an advantage that when they do come across such an obstacle, the large US defence firms simply throw huge sums of money to get them resolved. Defence firms in other smaller nations may have a tougher time in those situations.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

^^^ $40 million includes aircraft upgrade and Weapons package ?

Generally the Weapons package deal is signed separately , any confirmation that the deal includes weapons package and how much does aircraft upgrade and weapons cost separately.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Austin wrote:^^^ $40 million includes aircraft upgrade and Weapons package ?

Generally the Weapons package deal is signed separately , any confirmation that the deal includes weapons package and how much does aircraft upgrade and weapons cost separately.
the recent article mentioned that Dassault, Thales and MBDA were all together as part of a package- not a separate deal with Dassault and Thales to be followed by a separate arms package apart from the contract.
The inking of the deal could be well be timed with French President Nicolas Sarkozy's proposed visit to India later in the year. The project has been hanging fire for the last few years because the package offered by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile supplier) was around 30% higher than what India was ready to pay.
article link
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Juggi G »

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

Kartik wrote:the recent article mentioned that Dassault, Thales and MBDA were all together as part of a package- not a separate deal with Dassault and Thales to be followed by a separate arms package apart from the contract.
Considering this is written by Rajat Pandit we will have to wait and see if more than one source can confirm this ( both the amount and what constitutes the upgrade ) may be pretty soon we will hear on this.

Unless this deal does includes some kind of PESA retrofit on M2K and involves some kind of TOT agreement at $40 million ( if true ) it is a very expensive upgrade program.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Uday B »

Flash News: Chindu

Indian Air Force’s ALH Dhruv helicopter crash-lands in Jaisalmer
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

IAF's Dhruv helicopter crash-lands in Jaisalmer
New Delhi: An Advanced Light helicopter "Dhruv" of the Indian Air Force on Saturday crash-landed in Rajasthan's Jaisalmer district while rehearsing for the "Vayu Shakti" air power show to be held there on Sunday.

The helicopter was part of the Sarang Helicopter Display Team of the IAF and was rehearsing for tomorrow's air show, when the incident occurred, IAF officials said here.

"Both pilots are safe after they had to make a controlled crash-landing due to loss of power in the chopper," they added.

The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry to look into the reasons behind the incident, the officials said.

In 2005, the entire ALH Dhruv fleet had been grounded for several months after a similar incident in Andhra Pradesh and the subsequent probe had found a fault with the tail rotor blades of the choppers.

On whether the display team comprising four ALH Dhruvs will take part in the air show on Sunday, for which the President and the defence minister are also coming, they said, "Sarang's participation is not yet cancelled."
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by maitya »

Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed :oops: ).

However there's has been some confirmatory comments like,
“Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters.”
but never a comprehensive list of the subsystems that is being made part of this upgrade.

So here's another attempt: 8)
1) Radar - RDY MK2
2) New Missile system - MICA (including IR version)
3) Countermeasure - Integrated countermeasures system (ICMS) Mk4 from Thomson-CSF
4) Navigation - Sextant Avionique’s Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS
5) Datalink - Joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS)
6) HMS - Topsight E helmet-mounted sight/display
7) Cockpit Display and MC - Rafale's MDPU
8 ) A brand new 1553 digibus

But nothing really new to the AG capability - IAF seems to be happy with their Litening-II pods.

Also no confirmation on,
1) any active or passive MAWS - atleast DDM-SAMIR/DDM-NG type IR based system
2) any internal SPJ
3) no IRST system (this is confirmed)

So, prima facie, this French-Indian consortium including Dassault (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator), MBDA (missiles) and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited based upgrade is a very very comprehensive upgrade (specially on the AA areas).

Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?

Only time will tell I guess!! :P
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by nachiket »

maitya wrote:Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed :oops: ).
There is this report from Shiv Aroor. Well not report as such but does give some info.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sourab_c »

shiv wrote:
Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:

Not living in US, but Canada is not that far away hence would like to add my opinion.

As far as jingoism is concerned, in a society where all these cultures/immigrants/religions/nationalities coexist (like US/Canada), it is not possible to survive without loving your nation and your type. Even people who couldn't care less about what was happening in India while they were living in India, are forced to change when they immigrate. The social dynamics are such that there is "segregation within integration."

Hence, IMO, you should not worry about us "ass licking" goras. In fact, nowadays, it is quite the opposite.

We try to act as ambassadors of our nation and do our best to project the best of it to the world. On a social level, there is mutual respect between both groups (Australia is the only exception).

No disrespect but it is very easy to come here and criticize, but I personally know many Indians (students/politicians/lawyers/doctors) that consistently endeavour for greater cooperation between India and the west. This "image" of India in the local population is what leads to more FDIs and JVs which drive the Indian economy.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Jagan »

shiv wrote:
Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:
I dont know about the regular run of the mill - strat stuff - but on this particular subject - I am in touch with a couple of famlilies involvied in tracking down these crash sites and they have been fairly appreciateive and grateful of the cooperation extended by India - and access to the restricted areas (most of the crash sites are in the NE which are restricted to the phoreners . if any they seem to be quite critical of the US government for not doing as much as they should.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

maitya wrote:
Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?

Only time will tell I guess!! :P
My guess is that the outrageous $ 40 million price tag is as much a result of French weapon/missile prices as the cost of the upgrade itself! The upgrade in terms of the aircraft in itself hardly seems anything groundbreaking.

The IAF is probly looking at Micas and Asraams in 100s, perhaps even 1000s. Sipri shows that the IAF bought 200 Super 530Ds and 1500 Magics! I mean even the Paf bought 500 Amraams for their 40 odd solahs. Each Mica iirc - is supposedly upwards of $ 4 million a piece (including program costs I guess/hope)! Still, it won't be less than $ 1-2 million no matter how we look at it. The Asraam is another $ 0.5 million per piece.

My guess is just these weapons will cost India close to $ 500-1000 million. And that is not including any A2G weapons.

Another concern - iirc, the French were on record saying that it'll take 2 years to upgrade the first 2 aircraft, which will then be followed up by HAL doing the rest at a better pace, 2-3 per month. So, a fleet of upgraded M2k-5/9s does not seem likely before 2015!

CM

Edited for corrections!
Last edited by Cain Marko on 28 Feb 2010 09:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:
Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:
We cannot expect news items - as in news paper reports. The reporters themselves may or may not understand the import of such a situation.

However, I am more than sure that ANY vet, a vet org or armed forces person would appreciate it. This could actually become a great PR item for India in a positive way. Let us see what we can do with this news item.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

It seems that the order for 50 extra MKI might have been dropped. Upon questioning, AM Barbora stated in an interview (with an unmentionable rag) that the IAF expects to have 230 MKI by 2018!

CM.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

OK so the "US appreciates" news item is misleading at the very least because it fails to acknowledge the specific groups who are grateful while it credits the entire nation with being grateful. There is a difference and the news item appears to be in the genre of "XYZ dosa stall is very popular. Even foreigners come there"
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by satya »

Order for additional MKIs not being dropped but wont be made another media circus when Putin comes , instructions to keep defense purchase low key affair str8 from top .
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by chetak »

satya wrote:Order for additional MKIs not being dropped but wont be made another media circus when Putin comes , instructions to keep defense purchase low key affair str8 from top .

Which "top"?? ours or ........
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

maitya wrote:Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed :oops: ).

However there's has been some confirmatory comments like,
“Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters.”
but never a comprehensive list of the subsystems that is being made part of this upgrade.

So here's another attempt: 8)
1) Radar - RDY MK2
2) New Missile system - MICA (including IR version)
3) Countermeasure - Integrated countermeasures system (ICMS) Mk4 from Thomson-CSF
4) Navigation - Sextant Avionique’s Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS
5) Datalink - Joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS)
6) HMS - Topsight E helmet-mounted sight/display
7) Cockpit Display and MC - Rafale's MDPU
8 ) A brand new 1553 digibus

But nothing really new to the AG capability - IAF seems to be happy with their Litening-II pods.

Also no confirmation on,
1) any active or passive MAWS - atleast DDM-SAMIR/DDM-NG type IR based system
2) any internal SPJ
3) no IRST system (this is confirmed)

So, prima facie, this French-Indian consortium including Dassault (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator), MBDA (missiles) and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited based upgrade is a very very comprehensive upgrade (specially on the AA areas).

Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?

Only time will tell I guess!! :P
to add to your comprehensive list- I think, though this is just my opinion, that the airframe may be strengthened as well to add hard-points. This Mirage-2000 layout shows the number of hard-points on the Mirage-2000H/TH and this pic shows the number of hard-points on the -5. The -2000H has one of these hard-points rated for ~200kg to carry a LDP, but it may be beefed up to carry an AAM and its pylon in addition to adding another to the other side.

in addition, it may also feature an OBOGS (which was added to the Mirage-2000-5 Mk2), greatly increasing the mission duration for the Mirages, which currently depend on carrying oxygen tanks, which dictate mission duration, rather than the fighter's endurance or pilot fatigue.
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2225
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kakarat »

Vayu Shakti is being telecasted on DD National if possible somebody record it
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