Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

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negi
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

^ Sanku ji your point about bringing in AVADI into this discussion makes little sense , AVADI will face same issues with T90 as the Arjun the first lot of delivery of T-90s 'SEEMS' to be at a faster pace because as per contract AVADI was supposed to deliver 186 of the initial 310 by assembling them from SKDs (rest coming from RU) and additional 1000 AVADI is supposed to build right from scratch as per the ToT clause . :roll:

And as I have re iterated before like all such major deals with Russians we have only found that domestic MIC has been unable to roll out platforms at desired pace even the much talked about MKI programme is a classic example of the above.

SO the argument that T-90 was ordered as AVADI is/was unable to produce Arjuns in desired numbers within a given timeframe does not hold any ground . And moreover without placing an order how does IA know if AVADi can do it or not , hell I can bet even Russians are gonna slip on their timelines as with other programmes in the past so what gives ?

Btw it sounds wierd infact absurd to peddle an argument about not being able to buy a 'QUALIFIED' product just because the installed capacity to mass produce them in large numbers does not exist , arrey baba even for those 1000 T-90s one would have to get MoD sanction and install the assembly line now someone tell me how different and difficult will it be for the Arjun ?

And then what about ToT to AVADI from RU vis a vis the DRDO (the latter has already taken place ) while in case of T-90 AVADI has only rolled out assembled ones from SKD/CKDs.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

chackojoseph wrote:T-90 page on wiki
and utilizes India's Kanchan explosive reactive armored plates
They mean composite plates? Kanchan is composite. And Kanchan is used in T-90?
forget about the reactive armour gaffe in the wiki article, but I do keep hearing that kanchan armour is/will be being used on T-90 from otherwise reliable sources. could you check the veracity of this story ?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

negi wrote:^ Sanku ji your point about bringing in AVADI into this discussion makes little sense , AVADI will face same issues with T90 as the Arjun the first lot of delivery of T-90s 'SEEMS' to be at a faster pace because as per contract AVADI was supposed to deliver 186 of the initial 310 by assembling them from SKDs (rest coming from RU) and additional 1000 AVADI is supposed to build right from scratch as per the ToT clause .
No but it does. The fact that Avadi cant manufacture T 90s on its own ADDS to my arguments and does not detract from it.

Avadi would not be a issue if the Arjun was not inextricably linked to Avadi (like T 90 which is impacted but not inextricably linked to it)

You can not talk about inducting arjun in 1500 numbers without talking about Avadi.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

sanku ji, avadi has produced 100+ arjuns @ 50+/year after army finally accepted the arjun, in 2007. you are still not satisfied ? :P

for comparison, it has produced 10 T-90's from 2006 when production was supposed to start to now.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

Rahul M wrote:sanku ji, avadi has produced 100+ arjuns @ 50+/year after army finally accepted the arjun, in 2007. you are still not satisfied ? :P

for comparison, it has produced 10 T-90's from 2006 when production was supposed to start to now.
Rahul; thats why in my post to you above when I talked of potential outstanding issues with Arjun -- I mentioned that that production issues appear to be finally licked, please note the discussion with Negi was still in context of history of the project and role of Avadi in it.

As I have been saying the question is now the future and confidence in them to keep going with quality + rapid turn around of any issues that will be seen (not a knock -- issues are seen with any product) + quick design and production deployment of future needs.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

Rahul M wrote:forget about the reactive armour gaffe in the wiki article, but I do keep hearing that kanchan armour is/will be being used on T-90 from otherwise reliable sources. could you check the veracity of this story ?
It is not true. I had checked. Kanchan is very heavy.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Tanaji »

Sanku wrote:
Rahul M wrote:sanku ji, avadi has produced 100+ arjuns @ 50+/year after army finally accepted the arjun, in 2007. you are still not satisfied ? :P

for comparison, it has produced 10 T-90's from 2006 when production was supposed to start to now.
Rahul; thats why in my post to you above when I talked of potential outstanding issues with Arjun -- I mentioned that that production issues appear to be finally licked, please note the discussion with Negi was still in context of history of the project and role of Avadi in it.

As I have been saying the question is now the future and confidence in them to keep going with quality + rapid turn around of any issues that will be seen (not a knock -- issues are seen with any product) + quick design and production deployment of future needs.
So lets see:

No major outstanding issues with Arjun
Avadi delivering at 50 per year :)

So why no more orders for Arjun from IA?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

Tanaji wrote: So lets see:

No major outstanding issues with Arjun
Avadi delivering at 50 per year :)

So why no more orders for Arjun from IA?
Buzz says the order is coming.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

thanks chacko.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by RayC »

Vivek K wrote:

The procurement mafia's brazenness is astounding. I agree with Rahul that DRDO has a better chance of selling the Arjun to the Russian army than to the IA. And perhaps the Russians could put it to good use.
No offence meant.

Have you any proof that there is a procurement mafia and that what is not good enough for India is good for Russia as has been suggested?

And anyway, I believe some Arjuns are being inducted. Hearsay, of course.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Kanson »

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?221248
Though the final deal for 310 T-90 tanks was signed in March '01, part of it was struck in May-June '99 after three tanks underwent peak summer trials in Rajasthan. It was followed up by further trials in October-November '99. The total purchase from Russia was worth $3 billion. "Based on these trials, army HQ prepared a general staff evaluation report recommending the induction of the T-90 tanks in December '99," says a ministry official. The price negotiation committee (PNC) headed by Lt Gen Shamsher S. Mehta, then deputy army chief, was responsible for selecting the tanks and giving his assessment report on field trials. Each tank was priced at $2 million (nearly Rs 10 crore).

While examining over 500 files relating to the defence deals, Vittal reportedly called for the dossier on the T-90 purchase when reports emanated of serious technical snags in the tank. Armoured corps personnel complained of the tanks having no "thermal imagers" and "night vision capability", getting "overheated" as well as failing to generate 1000 Horse Power (HP) as claimed by M/s RVZ Russia. The CVC's finding was that technical issues were ignored to serve 'vested interests'.

Right from the outset, the T-90 deal has generated a great deal of controversy. Former prime minister H.D. Deve Gowda and several other politicians alleged "foul play".
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

The above article is a outlook/congress hatchet piece on NDA; as it itself claims
The Opposition says it is determined to make defence deals an issue in the general elections next year.
Congress has been around for 7 years on the long laundry list of issues that the article has -- any move on any of them?

You would be better off posting from technical sites which have less OBVIOUS political agenda.

Please link exact failures and issues by direct GoI reports, as have been done in case of Arjun for example. :mrgreen:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

RayC wrote:
Vivek K wrote:

The procurement mafia's brazenness is astounding. I agree with Rahul that DRDO has a better chance of selling the Arjun to the Russian army than to the IA. And perhaps the Russians could put it to good use.
No offence meant.

Have you any proof that there is a procurement mafia and that what is not good enough for India is good for Russia as has been suggested?

And anyway, I believe some Arjuns are being inducted. Hearsay, of course.
To add; the procurement is not

1) Special to T 90 or Arjun -- its true and same everywhere, so ALL deals are equally shady by lack of transparency (in fact some clearly are far fara far shadier)
2) Not for IA or forces, most procurement decisions are taken at levels beyond the forces, at best forces give a technical report; in which even leaf level personnel are involved and put their comments in wriiting.

Very difficult for IA or forces to fudge reports.

Money making if any on these happen much beyond IA -- so even if people have to crib about it at least crib at the right source MoD, just like assigning leadership of Mil-Ind complex to army is completely misplaced, so is assigning procurement decisions.

At best IA can be faulted for technical recommendations and/or strategy and tactics -- Say it can be blamed for poor doctrines, if a complaint is made that CS is not good enough, surely its armies domain, but not the ones assigned here.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

Rahul M wrote:thanks chacko.
Also the volume of Kanchan is more, so T-90 will add inches in width. The 1000 hp engine cannot support the kanchan.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

Vivek K wrote:The IA stands exposed. The lack of transparency in procurement is suggestive of corruption. In this matter the double standards (chit bhi mera aur pat bhi mera) applied are evident by:
1) When we state that the minister levelled the charge of sabotage against the IA, d_berwal states - do you believe our politicians.
2) Now RayC states that the Minister should not be insulted (when no insult was hurled at him).

The procurement mafia's brazenness is astounding. I agree with Rahul that DRDO has a better chance of selling the Arjun to the Russian army than to the IA. And perhaps the Russians could put it to good use.
Principally I agree with you as you are figuratively speaking.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by RayC »

The Procurement policy

Highlights of DPP-2008 Transparency

Vendors will be given advance information before the issue of Request For Proposal (RFP) in all procurement cases excepting those for security sensitive products. This information given on MoD website will provide them a lead time for preparation of their offers in response to the RFP. All verbal communications with the vendors during the course of trials will be confirmed in writing within a week. The result of technical/trial evaluations along with reason(s) for disqualification would also be intimated to vendors after the acceptance of technical/staff evaluation reports. Defence Public Sector Undertakings would be required to sign Integrity Pact with their sub-vendor(s) in all cases where the procurement value exceeds Rs.20 crores.

Field Trials In order to increase the transparency in evaluation process, qualitative requirement of the equipment under procurement, as laid down by the Services Headquarters, would be analyzed right at the inception stage for the methods and agency responsible for it evaluation. Trial methodology so prepared would be incorporated in RFP for advance information of the vendors. Inclusion of trial methodology in the RFP would ensure that there is a common assumption by all agencies involved in the trial including participating vendors. The result of trial evaluation of the parameters so far was being conveyed to the vendors verbally in the form of debriefing on a day to day basis, which has now been made mandatory to be confirmed as a written communication also. This would ensure adequate information is provided to the vendors regarding the performance of their equipment and is well documented for future references. Another important aspect with regard to providing oversight on the conducted trial procedure, in large value projects, is enlarging the mandate of the Technical Oversight committee, which is responsible to see whether trials has been conducted as per prescribed procedures. Technical Oversight committee has now also been mandated to oversee whether the trials have been carried out according to trial methodology given in the RFP as well as trial directive. A more broad based and multidisciplinary trial team has been proposed in DPP-2008 for cases where an equipment is being procured for more than one Service or if it involves transfer of technology.

Encourage competition by broadening the Vendor Base

In order to make broad based Service Qualitative Requirements(SQRs) Service Headquarters may obtain inputs by issuing Request For Information(RFI) on MoD website. It would also ensure that vendors get advance information regarding likely procurement schemes. To ensure that SQRs are broad based and would result in multi-vendor situation, a compliance table of SQRs, vis-à-vis technical parameters of available equipment in as much details as feasible, would be prepared at the stage of formulation/approval of SQRs. If only one vendor is found compliant to the SQR parameters after the technical evaluation stage, a review would be carried out by the Technical Evaluation Committee(TEC) to derive causes of such single vendor situation for recommending suitable corrective measures for review of the acquisition scheme.

Quality and Reliability

To ensure better reliability and quality assurance, vendors would be required to give details of reliability model and basis of reliability prediction. The efficacy of such model will be verified during technical and environmental evaluation. A seller is required to rectify any failure in the equipment during the period of warranty. The seller, however, is not required to inform the cause of such a failure. Knowledge of cause of failure may be of valuable help to the user in long term maintenance of the equipment. The new provision in the warranty clause requires that the seller shall intimate the assignable cause of the failure to the user.

Enhancement of Delegation of Financial Powers to the Services

The Services have been given greater delegation of financial powers for capital acquisition to enhance efficiency and expedite decision-making. Service Headquarters will now approve cases up to Rs.50 crores. Financial power delegated to the Defence Secretary has also been enhanced to Rs. 75 crores. Further, the Defence Procurement Board(DPB) would accord AON (Acceptance of Necessity) to cases up to Rs.100 crores. Only cases above Rs.100 crores are to be brought before the Defence Acquisition Council. To cut delays, the existing provisions for grant of extension of time against RFP has been limited to only eight weeks. In multi-vendor cases, once L-1 vendor is identified, normally there would be no need for any further price negotiations. To check long delays in issuing of RFP after AON and quantity vetting, a provision has been incorporated that the AON would lapse where RFP after approval of quantity is not issued within two years from accord of AON. In such cases, fresh AON will be considered only after re-examination of available technology and operational necessity.

History of DPPAs part of the implementation of the report of the Group of Ministers on reforming the National Security System post Kargil Operations, new Defence Procurement Management Structures and Systems were set up in the Ministry of Defence in the year 2001. For operationalizing these structures and systems, the procedure for Defence Procurement existing since 1992, was revised. The Defence Procurement Procedure-2002 (known as DPP-2002) came into effect from December 30, 2002. It was applicable to procurements flowing out of ‘Buy’ decision of Defence Acquisition Council. The scope of this procedure was enlarged in June 2003 to include procurements flowing out of ‘Buy and Make’ decisions. The procedure was further reviewed and DPP-2005 came into effect from July 01, 2005.

The DPP-2005 was also reviewed and revised based on experience gained in its implementation, and further enlarged to include revised Fast Track Procedure and Procedure for Indigenous Warship Building. It also included procurements categorized in the ‘Make’ category for bridging the existing critical gap and provided requisite framework for increased participation of Indian Industry in the Defence Sector. The DPP-2006 thus came into effect from September 01, 2006.

While promulgating DPP-2006, it was envisaged that review of the procurement procedure would be undertaken every two years. The DPP-2008 is the outcome of the experience and feedback gained in implementation of the existing procedure. The revised procedure being named as DPP-2008, will come into effect from September 01, 2008. DPP-2008 aims to strengthen the procurement framework by making it more transparent, impartial and accountable.

Procurement Policy
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by RayC »

If India's military eventually plumps for primarily American equipment, a major reason will be: soldiers, sailors and airmen are completely sick of being gypped through poorly-framed acquisition contracts that entirely favour the foreign suppliers.
PNC and Contracts
Last edited by Gerard on 05 Mar 2010 22:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited - copyright
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Kanson »

Rahul M wrote:compare this to the arjun :
it is well known that arjun's kanchan armour defeated the 3BM-42 round (also known as 'mango') in the 80's itself. this was widely reported at the time. kanchan itself has been through major improvements since that time.

please note the import of this gentlemen,


>> the basic arjun armour of the 80's, without ERA could defeat the 3BM-42 round. the modern T-90 armour of 1999 (it has not changed since) can't defeat the 3BM42 (which is anyway an obsolete round in today's world) without ERA. one can only wonder how it will fare against modern APFSDS rounds. :roll:

>> cut to 2000. http://frontierindia.net/the-kanchan-armor/
As a side note, in January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds. {which are more advanced than the obsolete 3BM42 mango which defeated the T-90 armour}
conclusion : even without ERA arjun's protection levels are same or better than the T-90 WITH ERA.

>> now what happens when ERA is added to both arjun and T-90 ?
you decide. :wink:

Hi Rahul/Joseph, It is good to read that you are reporting on enhanced protection of Arjun by the use of Kanchan armour. It seems everyone is in praise of this. Even ex- def min, Jaswant Singh who was once very critical of Arjun before he was a def min was so praise of Kanchan armour. But irrespective of this, i'm reading this from ex-DGMF.
By talking about sloped turrent, is he not indirectly talking about the armour protection of the tank. And is he not meaning indirectly not satisfied with the protection level ? How is this possible, if Kanchan is considered superior to all rounds and considered as gold standard by all? Am i missing something here ?

I see, JSDF T-90, K2 Black Panther are not having sloped turrents like Leo-2, T-90. Probably we can add leclerc too in this list, i guess. So what i'm missing or failing to read from Mr. Shekhawat?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

One of my friend's friend saw this discussion and when he compared the pro's and con's of Arjun with the tank he was driving, he literally started crying why did the army take the tin can he was driving/commanding over the Arjun...

what more can i say...
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by RayC »

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

By talking about sloped turrent, is he not indirectly talking about the armour protection of the tank. And is he not meaning indirectly not satisfied with the protection level ? How is this possible, if Kanchan is considered superior to all rounds and considered as gold standard by all? Am i missing something here ?
this is not expected from a senior army officer ! T-90 (T-72BU) is hardly the epitome of a modern tank. and he is pretending that sloped turret is something ultra-modern when it was first introduced in WW2 by the T-34 ! he will go and buy those if he could I guess.
and a number of forces including germany's army, the heer still use the boxy armoured leopard-2's and will do so for quite some time !
the intellectual dishonesty of this person is so glaring what can I say. :x

sloped armour would have reduced the internal space which in turn means lower crew comfort and lack of space for add-ons in the future. it was the army's own decision in the mid 90's not to go for sloped armour when the proposal was raised during Gen RoyC's time for these reasons. and also because the existing armour was considered more than adequate as compared to other existing tanks. the tin-cans belong to an older generation and don't even belong to the same category.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

kanson, the K2 black panther is one of the latest tanks and probably among the top 2 worldwide. only the last 2 of the leopard2 versions, leo2A5 and leo2A6 have sloped turret. the previous versions, 1 through4 are still in service and especially the A4 is still considered state-of-the-art. none of these have sloped armour and all of them are considered at least a generation ahead of the T-72 family (designed in the 60's and first produced in 1971 ? )

and we are buying it in 2010 calling it next gen tank. what irony.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

Kanson wrote:Hi Rahul/Joseph, It is good to read that you are reporting on enhanced protection of Arjun by the use of Kanchan armour. It seems everyone is in praise of this. Even ex- def min, Jaswant Singh who was once very critical of Arjun before he was a def min was so praise of Kanchan armour. But irrespective of this, i'm reading this from ex-DGMF.
By talking about sloped turrent, is he not indirectly talking about the armour protection of the tank. And is he not meaning indirectly not satisfied with the protection level ? How is this possible, if Kanchan is considered superior to all rounds and considered as gold standard by all? Am i missing something here ?

I see, JSDF T-90, K2 Black Panther are not having sloped turrents like Leo-2, T-90. Probably we can add leclerc too in this list, i guess. So what i'm missing or failing to read from Mr. Shekhawat?
Kanchan Armor is more volume for the same weight. So HEAT, HESH and AFSPDS loose the kinetic energy while penetrating. The penetration looses kinetic energy or the blast fragments loose energy.

About Lt gen, he is technically right. Arjun Started as a western design project. Every one wanted to ape Germans. This Lt gen is a genius. The design outlive is comment is naturally right. Then he goes on to sloped turret which has not been GSQRed by Armeee walas. The entire issue is that in forces, the left hand dosen't know what the right hand is doing and every one is an expert of everything else except his own business. This Lt gen has "read" some stuff somewhere and is an expert. I know loads of them Lt gen writes on what navy should do, Admiral writes on space etc etc. If you ask another Lt gen, he will come out with his theories. when I was a novice, i used to be wideeyed by their knowledge, now, i have a TATA Swach to filter them out. Lot of them say "i was not directly related to the project, but, As far as I know....." The journos edit all that.

There is no single person in the Armee who knows everything about Arjun except Maj Gen HM Singh. He was with it in excess of 20 years. so logically, even he does not know what happened for 30 years.

So, when Brig Dubber and Lt gen Sibber say something its funny. The guy who is coding the GSQR (probably died and gone) is not the same guy who is testing and warfighting. Finally blame comes on Arjun Tank.

One Lt gen summed it correctly. he says bad design and frequent changes in design brought Arjun project its fame. mr Clean Image and def secretaries understood that. So, they decided to freeze the design and said, this is it. next thing will be called mark 2. So, Now army fell over itself, whom to blame for its own co-ordination problems. so they went for AUCRT and brought out different colors. then they wanted submarine like fording. A lot of delaying tactics have been employed, since they saw that design modification plank won't work. So, when the Israelis said something, Armee wanted all those to be implemented too.

The fundamental problem was Armee and its project co-coordinators. The examples of the above lt gen is classic. Where on earth did he get that sloped turret idea? Of course from glossys. has he or his armee GSQRites have any feature coded for arjun that is revolutionary? Nope! Why? they are just talk shops.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

One good thing out of this is these senior officers like Shekawat are getting called out for what looks like (I cannot believe they are ignorant but who knows) deliberate attempt to obsfuscate thinking that like the days of old most of the media and public are ignorant idiots.


Imagine dissing the Leopards :eek: (was taken by an Aussie friend to witness some Leopard 1s )


If only we were so lucky to get the Leopards. I would be thrilled if we had gone on for the leopard 2s
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by munna »

^^Leopard is a 1970s design and hence not the tank of the future. We need futuristic tanks with all the features that one can cull from Discovery Channel's "Weapons of the future" program. DRDO is toast only :P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Surya wrote:One good thing out of this is these senior officers like Shekawat are getting called out for what looks like (I cannot believe they are ignorant but who knows) deliberate attempt to obsfuscate thinking that like the days of old most of the media and public are ignorant idiots.


Imagine dissing the Leopards :eek: (was taken by an Aussie friend to witness some Leopard 1s )


If only we were so lucky to get the Leopards. I would be thrilled if we had gone on for the leopard 2s
Surya, with each passing day the ground on which the anit-Arjun lobby stands is getting weak. The media still regurgitates 5-10 years old articles and points. We have posters on this very forum who have gone from blaming the defects in Arjun=delay, to the problem with Indian Mil-Ind complex.There is nothing that IA can now throw at Arjun. It had genuine grievances during the development of the tank. But after the T-90 got inducted, there has been an attempt to somehow discredit the tank. The last trick in the bag was the AUCRT and the Renk issue. But they did not factor in Renk itself coming to defence of their product.....have you heard any peep on that account thereafter? Then the IA wanted 3rd party audit..even that gave thumbs up to the product....but still what does the tank get? Order for 124 more tanks.....

We're told that the summer trials are to evaluate the operational role for Arjun. Well, hello, goodmorning and smell the coffee. Here is an MBT designed as per your(IA) specification, you raised heaven and hell because it did not meet the specs and GSQR, delayed its induction till it met the gold standard and now, you need to have trials to find out what role the tank can play? Can it get more stupid than this. On what basis was the GSQR drafted then? Has the threat perception changed which does not warrant Arjun/western style MBT? The only thing that has changed is that PA did not get the Abrams then. And Arjun is not a tank of today and future? T-90 sure is, right? A tank which itself was considered to be an interim measure by the host country and ended up being the mainstay due to change in financial fate of nation than anything else. The people in charge of this circus must be of the opinion that every one out there is daft.

And for god's sake, why does it need to be compared with T-90 to find out its operational role? Who is the IA trying to bluff? An MBT is an MBT is an MBT. What more or less is there to it? What was supposed to be the frontline MBT of IA has now to be pitted against T-90 to find out what it can do? Give me a break.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

2020 "br" GSQR for FMBT

- 2000hp 24 ltr capacity engine with sound levels quieter than camry at 2000rpm
- fuel economy of 12 km/liter :twisted:
- ability to use petrol/diesel/ethanol/dalda/desi-ghee/melted amul butter/mango juice
- 205mm main cannon firing APDS rounds at 3000m/sec
- ability to fire scramjet mach6 rounds
- autoloader
- 80 internal rounds in blast proof storage
- autoloading time of 0.7 sec from selection button press to round-in-breech
- anti radar and laser defences
- top road speed 120kmph
- should be submersible to 10m depth to cross shallow seas/rivers upto 50km
- NBC protection against a 100kt blast @ 500m distance
- thought guided gunnery weapon aimer
- twin thermal imagers of 20km range but cost 1L/item onlee
- weight 42 tons.

* for foreign tanks, it can be considered to lower the desired specs by 70%
manjgu
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

and to be able to

* Receive Ekta Kapoors saas bahu serials while underwater
Surya
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

:twisted: err

- thought guided gunnery weapon aimer (needs to be multilingual)
biswas
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by biswas »

Singha wrote:2020 "br" GSQR for FMBT

- 2000hp 24 ltr capacity engine with sound levels quieter than camry at 2000rpm
- fuel economy of 12 km/liter :twisted:
- ability to use petrol/diesel/ethanol/dalda/desi-ghee/melted amul butter/mango juice
- 205mm main cannon firing APDS rounds at 3000m/sec
- ability to fire scramjet mach6 rounds
- autoloader
- 80 internal rounds in blast proof storage
- autoloading time of 0.7 sec from selection button press to round-in-breech
- anti radar and laser defences
- top road speed 120kmph
- should be submersible to 10m depth to cross shallow seas/rivers upto 50km
- NBC protection against a 100kt blast @ 500m distance
- thought guided gunnery weapon aimer
- twin thermal imagers of 20km range but cost 1L/item onlee
- weight 42 tons.

* for foreign tanks, it can be considered to lower the desired specs by 70%
You forgot, optional upgrade to levitation, a fusion reactor to power it and the option to act a quasi nuke sub/7.5th generation aircraft/space ship. :P
negi
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

Sloped armour ?

There is a catch the front turret plate is just one of those umpteen layers that constitute a modern MBT armour the inner composite layers themselves might be arranged in a suitable geometric fashion to achieve maximum protection , at the end of the day the effectiveness of armour is proved in firing ranges or by subjecting to other types of destructive testing and as long as the protection level offered by the platform is within the laid down guidelines how does it matter if turret is SLOPED or FLAT ?

And again the modern sabot fired from a 'silver bullet' class round and guns in the class of L55 do not ricochet just because the glacis/turret plate is inclined .All in all the amount of protection offered is governed by the composition of the armour itself one can only achieve so much by just altering superficial alignment of the armour 'block'.
Vivek K
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Vivek K »

GD you forgot to add "Klingon Cloaking Device" to the GSQR
Rahul M
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

Surya wrote::twisted: err

- thought guided gunnery weapon aimer (needs to be multilingual)
not in link-language you mean ? :mrgreen:
rohitvats
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Just have a look what the MOD says about the Arjun tank(from May 2007-Standing Committee on Defense-14th Report)
The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original
and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank. The Ministry replied as under :—
MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension :twisted: . It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank :mrgreen: . A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised.

MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. .MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs.
The ultimate irony of it all....................
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by kulhari »

Singha wrote:2020 "br" GSQR for FMBT

- 2000hp 24 ltr capacity engine with sound levels quieter than camry at 2000rpm
- fuel economy of 12 km/liter :twisted:
- ability to use petrol/diesel/ethanol/dalda/desi-ghee/melted amul butter/mango juice
- 205mm main cannon firing APDS rounds at 3000m/sec
- ability to fire scramjet mach6 rounds
- autoloader
- 80 internal rounds in blast proof storage
- autoloading time of 0.7 sec from selection button press to round-in-breech
- anti radar and laser defences
- top road speed 120kmph
- should be submersible to 10m depth to cross shallow seas/rivers upto 50km
- NBC protection against a 100kt blast @ 500m distance
- thought guided gunnery weapon aimer
- twin thermal imagers of 20km range but cost 1L/item onlee
- weight 42 tons.

* for foreign tanks, it can be considered to lower the desired specs by 70%
:rotfl: by by this was hilarious
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by munna »

rohitvats wrote:
MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. .MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs.
The ultimate irony of it all....................
Not for nothing is it called Arjun! Arjun (MBT) and Karna (Tank-ex) are the future of India, "Bhisham Pitamah" (T-72/90) is far too old and should retire gracefully rather than get skewered in this Mahabharat. :P
Surya
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

bah humbug Rohit

That document needs to be approved by Sanku :mrgreen:
rohitvats
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Could not stop myself from posting this:
On the question of production of Arjun Tank, the representatives of the Ministry apprised the Committee that the MBT Arjun had received the users acceptance and it was under production. They further stated that trial of 5 tanks were done and they have asked for 15 tanks more to do a further trial before they give clearance for final production of them. The representative from Army informed the Committee that in the recent trials with the five Arjun tanks, they were satisfied with the performance.

He also stated that in mobility, driving and in quality, the tank was very good. The representatives of the Ministry informed the Committee that night fighting capability in an integrated mode was the best with Arjun and in terms of ability it might be compared very well with the best state-of-art western tank-Leopard II or Challenger-II
Anything else left to say....anyone?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

biswas wrote:
Singha wrote:2020 "br" GSQR for FMBT

- 2000hp 24 ltr capacity engine with sound levels quieter than camry at 2000rpm
- fuel economy of 12 km/liter :twisted:
- ability to use petrol/diesel/ethanol/dalda/desi-ghee/melted amul butter/mango juice
- 205mm main cannon firing APDS rounds at 3000m/sec
- ability to fire scramjet mach6 rounds
- autoloader
- 80 internal rounds in blast proof storage
- autoloading time of 0.7 sec from selection button press to round-in-breech
- anti radar and laser defences
- top road speed 120kmph
- should be submersible to 10m depth to cross shallow seas/rivers upto 50km
- NBC protection against a 100kt blast @ 500m distance
- thought guided gunnery weapon aimer
- twin thermal imagers of 20km range but cost 1L/item onlee
- weight 42 tons.

* for foreign tanks, it can be considered to lower the desired specs by 70%
You forgot, optional upgrade to levitation, a fusion reactor to power it and the option to act a quasi nuke sub/7.5th generation aircraft/space ship. :P
fusion reactor will be 2000's design... they should be powered by anti matter based engine... :P :twisted:...
Surya
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

I think Rohit we need to repeat it every 24 hrs :)

else after a few months a senior officer will blabber something and all this will start over oagin

In the meantime Rohit can we zip all reports in one place.

Or may be post with all links together
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