Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Mar 2010 14:22

aditp wrote:RayC saar, whats your opinion in light of the latest revelations?

He can't answer. He was banned for a month some days ago.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Mar 2010 16:21

^^^ Too bad he was an ex-service person and had a practical view about the whole affair , hope he is back soon.

Most of the news on Arjun by mainstream media is picked via AJ Blog/Business Standard source and recycled via media SOP quoting unnamed MOD source.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Mar 2010 17:49

Rahul M wrote:problems with this scenario :

> production will be complete by 2013, 1st qtr of 2014 at most.
> mk2 will most likely be ready by 2013.
> 5 regiments of tank-ex will give us a total of 1600 T-90 + 700 CIA + 300 tank-ex + 300 arjun mk1 = 2900 non-obsolete tanks, our requirement is of minimum 4000.

We can have more capable Tank-Ex if we act now. We can reduce the T-90 component. Tank-Ex , by specs can better T-90. It will also have commonalities with Arjun.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 28 Mar 2010 18:33

What is nothing short of criminal stupidity is "upgrading" obselete T-72s rather than build the Karna ( tank-ex).

sunilpatel · Post by **sunilpatel** » 28 Mar 2010 23:31

Though i am 100% supporter of Arjun ....but yet i think, people should wait till results are officially declared...atleast in some unclear words..
another thing is that , we all know DRDO always comes first to Press in gettng even success of making a Automatic Roti Machine, and this time even after 3 days, there is not a single word from DRDO???!!!!

Only Ajay shukla reports that Arjun is superior...

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Mar 2010 10:47

An interesting titbit from Ajai Shukla's comment section about Arjun trials, and also on T-72 barrel bursting issue

...
What I'm coming to is the fact (which all my recent Arjun-related articles have suggested quite openly) that these trails were hardly a process of evaluating equipment in a rigorous, empirical manner. These trials were a form of rubber-stamping a decision that had already been made.

Except that the Arjun's unexpectedly good performance distorted the rubber on the stamp a bit. See what I mean?

....
btw, the exploding guns had NOTHING to do with bad ammunition, fatigue, or prematurely exploding HE shells. Most of the barrels burst while firing APFSDS, not HE.

I happened to be in a position in those days to know what was happening. This matter was thrashed out fully at a major meeting in OFB Kanpur in 1998, attended by the OFB people, the DGMF people, the Deputy Chief and a full-fledged Russian delegation at which this matter was thrashed out. Broadsword (then young, unwrinkled and a Lt Col) was there too, taking notes. The reason for the bursting barrels, the meeting concluded, was SINGLE-FOLD: tempering at 690 degrees instead of the 725 (I could be very slightly off on the figures... it was 12 years ago) that the Russian manufacturing documents specified.

Don't go by reports. The only function that reports serve is to cover up the truth and let people get away with murder.
...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 30 Mar 2010 07:59

DELETED.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Mar 2010 08:13

So they are going to reduce the width in Arjun MK II?

chakkunny · Post by **chakkunny** » 30 Mar 2010 08:39

How is width such a problem? Why is it not feasible to have rolling stock that is raised, so that the edges of the tank will clear any platform en route?

What madrassa math extrapolation goes into the argument that width makes a tank significantly more vulnerable to air attack? If this is the case, Army must stop recruitment of TFTA types and recruit only SDREs. Max chest width 12" onlee....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Mar 2010 15:40

With the spat between Colombia and Venezuela growing into a major irritant,Venezuela accusing Colombia of being the US's catspaw and launchpad for anti-Chavez armed irregulars,India also buying energy supplies from Venezuela,which is ordering many major ticket items of weaponry from Russia,it perhaps explains why India is so reluctant to sell to the enemy of a friend.A "line of credit",is tantamount to aid.It would also suit the US very well if the Colombians bought a non-US tank,from a "pro-US" state,allowing it to get off the hook and out of the "firing line"!

However,as I mentioned earlier,another buy of Arjun from the IA will help its export potential especially from countries such as Colombia,Venezuela,etc.,where an Indian LOC will go a long way in assisting our diplomatic efforts in gaining new footholds and friends,whose resources might be sorely required by India.Some of the Gulf countries might also be interested if we can keep the unit cost low,as western tanks come with a premium price tag.Arjun's latest performance is sure to have been noted worldwide.

PS:Reg. Arjun's first round hit rate,the hydro-pneumatic suspension is probably the key reason for this, and also why there was a report last year that the Russians for any FMBT JV wanted some Arjun tech incorporated like the suspension.

vina · Post by **vina** » 30 Mar 2010 16:07

while Arjuns had onlee 1 miss from eleven fired on the move

Hmm. Arjun's first round probability must be upwards of 90% .. Hope they had fired around 30 rounds or so, to have a large enough sample for onlooker /mango abduls to calculate hit probabilities.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Mar 2010 17:44

vina wrote:
while Arjuns had onlee 1 miss from eleven fired on the move
Hmm. Arjun's first round probability must be upwards of 90% .. Hope they had fired around 30 rounds or so, to have a large enough sample for onlooker /mango abduls to calculate hit probabilities.

and sealed the fate of Tin Can-90???..not happening.....even this performance was proverbial ''egg on the face..''

niran · Post by **niran** » 30 Mar 2010 18:47

vina wrote:
Hmm. Arjun's first round probability must be upwards of 90% .. Hope they had fired around 30 rounds or so, to have a large enough sample for onlooker /mango abduls to calculate hit probabilities.

the lil birdies further clarifies
T90 hit 9 out of assigned 11 before noon
at noon it was 4 out of assigned 11
during night trials it was 7 out of 15 assigned

Arjun hit 11 out of 11 before noon
10 out of 11 at noon
15 out of 15 during night trial

T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Mar 2010 19:30

niran wrote:
vina wrote:
Hmm. Arjun's first round probability must be upwards of 90% .. Hope they had fired around 30 rounds or so, to have a large enough sample for onlooker /mango abduls to calculate hit probabilities.
the lil birdies further clarifies
T90 hit 9 out of assigned 11 before noon
at noon it was 4 out of assigned 11
during night trials it was 7 out of 15 assigned

Arjun hit 11 out of 11 before noon
10 out of 11 at noon
15 out of 15 during night trial

T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial

Whoooaaa!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2010 19:48

if true, a resounding slap on the T90s night fighting and general capability.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 Mar 2010 20:06

What a diff space and comfort and 4 crew members make?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 30 Mar 2010 20:09

Singha wrote:if true, a resounding slap on the T90s night fighting and general capability.

Kya baat karta hai?

This will give the IA a chance to claim that the two crews who did not put in a good show were the cause of the T-90 putting in a performance not as good as Arjun

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Mar 2010 20:49

No, IA will claim that this is tactical brilliance, T90 can automatically detect and miss targets "not worth shooting at", where "not worth shooting at" is anything that the DGMF stipulates.

They will then raise a GSQR for this and ask Arjun to fulfill it.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Mar 2010 21:05

niran wrote:
vina wrote:
Hmm. Arjun's first round probability must be upwards of 90% .. Hope they had fired around 30 rounds or so, to have a large enough sample for onlooker /mango abduls to calculate hit probabilities.
the lil birdies further clarifies
T90 hit 9 out of assigned 11 before noon
at noon it was 4 out of assigned 11
during night trials it was 7 out of 15 assigned

Arjun hit 11 out of 11 before noon
10 out of 11 at noon
15 out of 15 during night trial

T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial

If the above is true, then T-90 seem to be an armored personnel carrier than a tank (The main gun is just for showoff). Rather than make 1600 T-90's spending precious resources, it is better to build around 500 Arjuns (It seems we can make more Arjun's for the same cost of building T-90's). What is the use even if T-90 can be transported using Nano if it misses the target. The Army's logic seems stupid. Think about it. It will go all the way to Pakistan crossing bridges and whatever obstacles (That's what the army believes and expects from T-90 and that's what Arjun can do best) and when they come face to face with the enemy it's shoot shoot and shoot and not a single hit on the target. The Abduls will be surprised and may even come close to have a look. T-90 again misses. It's better to remove the main gun. (May be as part of tactical brilliance, the IA expect the Abduls to come close and then they will use RPG's to take out the Paki tank) What a brilliant idea sirjee.

Vince · Post by **Vince** » 30 Mar 2010 22:09

HAHAHA!! That was really funny!

Long live the Arjun tank!

Maybe our former PM Mr. ZZZZZ Gowda was right after all about the T-90!

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 30 Mar 2010 22:28

^Assuming the above is true!
Friends lets not get into such discussion based on panwalahs, We have heard panwalahs saying both sides of the story, so nothing conclusive can be interpreted!
Even Ajai Shukla's story has unnamed sources. So nothing conclusive so far.

Lets wait for the official report, for that and nothing else will decide whether there will be any additional Arjuns in the IA or not. No matter what many panwallahs say, only that report will matter in the end!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Mar 2010 22:38

rohit any idea which direction the eventual full mechanisation plan will take ? why don't we develop a simple wheeled APC based on the tatra 8X8 and churn it out in numbers ?

a protection against 12.7 mm in frontal arc and small arms all around, basic IED protection up to a level with v-shaped underside, and any combo of 20 mm guns, 7.62 mm guns, mortars, ATGMs and grenade launchers can be added in variants. weight should be around 15-16 t powered by a 400 hp engine. the networking packages being developed for other projects can be fitted into it.
they can add an option for mounting additional armour depending on requirement. no reason why this can't be done within 3-4 years at most and production launched on a suitably large scale in both PSU and pvt co's like mahindra etc.

it's high time IA's mechanisation plan dreamed by Gen Sundarji comes back on track.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2010 22:57

niran wrote:
vina wrote:
Hmm. Arjun's first round probability must be upwards of 90% .. Hope they had fired around 30 rounds or so, to have a large enough sample for onlooker /mango abduls to calculate hit probabilities.
the lil birdies further clarifies
T90 hit 9 out of assigned 11 before noon
at noon it was 4 out of assigned 11
during night trials it was 7 out of 15 assigned

Arjun hit 11 out of 11 before noon
10 out of 11 at noon
15 out of 15 during night trial

T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial

So T-90 probability of a hit is 20/37 in all the trials with crew changes . Arjun's hit probability is 36/37 with same crew..

How fast can an Arjun fire the first round after detection? And comparative figures for other mainstream tanks?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Mar 2010 01:06

Rahul M wrote:rohit any idea which direction the eventual full mechanisation plan will take ? why don't we develop a simple wheeled APC based on the tatra 8X8 and churn it out in numbers ?...<SNIP>

sirji, no idea on the full mechanization. The only mechanization that seems to be happening is conversion of some divisions to RAPIDS. 12 ID and 4 ID are now RAPIDS. That brings total to 6. Orbat.com article spoke of raising the same to 7. One more should be under conversion as we speak - but no open source info as to which one. So, part of Gen.Sundarji's plan is in place....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Mar 2010 01:12

niran wrote:
the lil birdies further clarifies
T90 hit 9 out of assigned 11 before noon
at noon it was 4 out of assigned 11
during night trials it was 7 out of 15 assigned

Arjun hit 11 out of 11 before noon
10 out of 11 at noon
15 out of 15 during night trial

T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial

temprature making the T-90 Catherine TI Sights behave funny? and also degrading crew performance?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Mar 2010 03:34

Rahul, are the 5-year procurement plans of Indian Armed Forces available in public? Any link? The reason I ask is some timeback during T-90 versus Arjun debate, d_berwal had posted details of planned purchase of MBT(?) under various plans. Just curious about the source. It will also help in understanding any planned mechanization of Indian Infantry.

niran · Post by **niran** » 31 Mar 2010 06:50

ramana wrote: Arjun crew remained the same through the trial
How fast can an Arjun fire the first round after detection? And comparative figures for other mainstream tanks?

Saar, the above figures were of the "firing on the move test" i hear that
stationary firing results were similar, no figures were provided, but i am told
that there was a test whereby the Tanks had to travel a certain distance
over tall sand dunes and shallow pond and had to put in 3 rounds in a 20x20
cardboard target. Arjun was 540 seconds faster than T90 in the test, but
since T90 came to a full stop before firing, and Arjun crews detected and fired
before even coming to a full stop, it was deemed that Arjun crew cheated,
it has nothing to do with Arjun ability to move faster, quicker and farther away
detection, and fantastic ability to fire on the move, crews had cheated, and since
no more rounds were available for the test it was declared null(why no more rounds were ordered? i dunno nor i had asked)

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 31 Mar 2010 07:09

As shukla said it seems to be an attempt to stamp a pre determined result

what shenanigans!!!

stop and fire !!!!

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 31 Mar 2010 07:22

niran wrote:
Saar, the above figures were of the "firing on the move test" i hear that
stationary firing results were similar, no figures were provided, but i am told
that there was a test whereby the Tanks had to travel a certain distance
over tall sand dunes and shallow pond and had to put in 3 rounds in a 20x20
cardboard target. Arjun was 540 seconds faster than T90 in the test, but
since T90 came to a full stop before firing, and Arjun crews detected and fired
before even coming to a full stop, it was deemed that Arjun crew cheated,
it has nothing to do with Arjun ability to move faster, quicker and farther away
detection, and fantastic ability to fire on the move, crews had cheated, and since
no more rounds were available for the test it was declared null(why no more rounds were ordered? i dunno nor i had asked)

What cheated? How can early detection and firing on the move be cheating? Does the IA want its tankers to come to a halt. stand at attention, pray , procrastinate and then fire, errr after politely talking to the target? Huh. I seriously wish V.K.Singh shunts the current DGMF.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Mar 2010 08:46

Arjun was 540 seconds faster than T90 in the test, but
since T90 came to a full stop before firing, and Arjun crews detected and fired
before even coming to a full stop, it was deemed that Arjun crew cheated,
it has nothing to do with Arjun ability to move faster, quicker and farther away
detection, and fantastic ability to fire on the move, crews had cheated, and since
no more rounds were available for the test it was declared null(why no more rounds were ordered? i dunno nor i had asked)

Good thats how the trials are to be conducted.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Mar 2010 09:03

I thought onlee the T72 had to stop and then fire. the T72-upg and T90 were supposed to be able to fire
on move - which is a basic criteria for any world-class MBT since 20 yrs now

someone should investigate the delta between T90 FCS brochure and performance in the field

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 Mar 2010 10:00

Arjun was 540 seconds faster than T90 in the test, but
since T90 came to a full stop before firing, and Arjun crews detected and fired
before even coming to a full stop, it was deemed that Arjun crew cheated,
it has nothing to do with Arjun ability to move faster, quicker and farther away
detection, and fantastic ability to fire on the move, crews had cheated, and since
no more rounds were available for the test it was declared null

Has to be one of the most ingenious reasons given for loosing a contest!!!

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 31 Mar 2010 10:04

Looks like one of those video game rules.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 31 Mar 2010 10:17

Arjun crews detected and fired
before even coming to a full stop, it was deemed that Arjun crew cheated,
it has nothing to do with Arjun ability to move faster, quicker and farther away
detection, and fantastic ability to fire on the move, crews had cheated, and since
no more rounds were available for the test it was declared null(why no more rounds were ordered? i dunno nor i had asked)

Arjun crew cheated(in terms of pro-tin90 people )... But Arjun did not cheated at all, it did the exact job the crew asked for...

The test was to evaluate the tanks not crews

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 31 Mar 2010 10:25

Kanson wrote:
Arjun was 540 seconds faster than T90 in the test, but
since T90 came to a full stop before firing, and Arjun crews detected and fired
before even coming to a full stop, it was deemed that Arjun crew cheated,
it has nothing to do with Arjun ability to move faster, quicker and farther away
detection, and fantastic ability to fire on the move, crews had cheated, and since
no more rounds were available for the test it was declared null(why no more rounds were ordered? i dunno nor i had asked)
Good thats how the trials are to be conducted.

So the T90 has an atrocious Pk on the move.

To get better Pk, it has to stop. And it needs 540secs to stop?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Mar 2010 10:28

okay, that's more than enough discussion on paanwala news.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 31 Mar 2010 10:48

read the last post.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 31 Mar 2010 13:47

Panwallas are providing asli zarda. What the army will ultimately serve on table will only be meetha pan.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Mar 2010 13:53

^^^ All this panwala type news is mere speculation and best avoided , lets wait till GOI puts something concrete on the table on the recent trials and follow on plans.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Mar 2010 20:39

As per my understanding goes, tanks are fired in testing trials after breaking to complete stop and i think this is mainly for the tanks to increase the hit probability or for the tanks which cant fire accurately on the move. Is that right ? Or, is there any other Op. requirement which necessitates such procedure to stop and then fire ?

Any tankwarfare experts...