Bharat Rakshak

Can some kind soul kindly explain the meaning of the word "secular" to me( esp referred to in the bolded part)?

If JKLF was secular, i am Vladimir Putin.

The west always creates these fictions to suit their interests. There is no such things as secular about Kashmiri Muslims wanting to seceede from India, everry one of them harbors a deep seated hatred of Hindus and India, mirroring Pakijabis. I have read many a US diplomats say openly that KMs deserve a separate country, and among other things, they suggest that KMs are more "fair-skinned" (TFTA) from the rest of us SDREs.

Now even India is cowered into accepting this bile. So Mirwaiz Umar fukroo is a "moderate" because he demands to join his paki lovers without blowing himself up; I guess thats why he is "moderate", he's probably getting enough 72's here on mother earth.

Who in India has accepted this?
India will not redraw borders in Kashmir: Manmohan Singh

Kashmiri Muslims are Indians. As are Muslims everywhere else in India. Even if you assume that Kashmiri Muslims want to secede (which is a myth) it is a partial failure of India along three dimensions:

1. Our handling of regional secession movements and politically convenience secession speeches through vote rigging and supporting two bit politicians. Tamil Nadu had a secession movement too -- it was handled better.

2. Our inability to politically tackle the terror emanating from Pakistan. Our Jawans are making more than their fair share of sacrifices -- but our Netas and Babus are making India teeter on the brink by doing such things as handing Haji Pir back, not allowing complete capture of Saltoro Ridge ityadi. More terror = More armed forces = more alienation.

3. Our inability to sell the idea of India as being superior to the idea of Pan-Islamic ummah. Though we have been helped lately by Pakistani hara kiri. As a subtext, it also reflects on our inability to economically integrate JK better with the rest of India. Look at a typical family in Maharashtra/Tam Nadu even Bihar/UP. Everybody has some family member or friend working/studying in every part of India. JK is an exception. Also add to the fact that the economy there is doing a Pakistan (I am not talking about the top heavy economy due to money handouts, I am talking about the bottom heavy productive economy like Bangalore)

Though I agree with you that the Mirwaiz is a F-ing b4st4rd. I still distinctly remember an interview telecast on TV many moons ago, where when asked about Kashmiri Pandits he said that Kashmiris are willing to forget the fact that Pandits abandoned them during their struggle and are willing to take them back.

West doesn't have to think about India's interest vis-à-vis pakistan. We shouldnt be giving blank checks to west,instead
hold them accountable for double speak

Don't disagree with you other points but is this one really true? In my experience all the KMs I've met constantly emphasize how "separate" they are from India. If others call them Indian, they will immediately correct them.

Maybe separatist feelings have increased due to our handling, idk.

I wonder what was the "out of box solution" between him and Mushy. Or it was just a media speculation.

May be someone intentionally comes across Kashmiris with a jihadi mindset

Funny thing is that job of the media is to ask tough questions and seek clarifications from ambiguity. When MMS keeps repeating this no redrawing of borders in Kashmir, what exactly does that mean? And to whom is his mantra addressed to? Who is asking to re-draw borders in Kashmir?

Pakistanis, five times a day for 63 years.

There are enough reports to suggest that Mush pulled a con job on India through MMS (although, MMS wasn't conned, he agreed to it). And that is entire Kashmir will be preserved as on entity, there will be de-militarization on both sides of the LOC, and there will be JOINT India-TSP soverignty over all of Kashmir, with a sort of quazi independence to Kashmir itself in that they will have self rule for the most part. One doesn't need a high IQ to see how this will play out practically. With no Indian army, the valley will be flooded with Pakijabis and others from POK (where there is nothing anyway). Elections will be held in which Mirwaiz fukroo, Jeelani etc will win a thumping majority (basically MMS would have conceeded a plebiscite of sorts); and make aggressive demands on India as the "representatives of the Kashmiri people". And despite "joint governence", under such a scenario, you think India stands a chance?

MMS will have basically signed off surrender of Kashmir in slow motion, even as he walks down the Nobel aisle in Stockholm. Once such a crap is agreed to, Kashmir will go away from the headlines, and this is where US steps in, there will be confering of "great power" status on India, perhaps IT jobs and other outsourcing from US will continue at pace, not to mention nuke deal and the like, and Indian people will all but forget about Kashmir; while TSP will be hoisting the green crescent over Srinagar, and the west will be riding their white horses in Gulmarg and their travel agencies offering special vacation packages for the likes of Billy "BJ" clinton and his 20 something mistresses like Monica Lewinsky. Meanwhile, India of course will have become a "global superpower of the 21st century".

If Pakistan separates Gilgit from Kashmir, why don't we separate Ladakh from Kashmir? Other than the fact it is politically impossible I suppose.

CRamS-ji

Pakis consistently underestimate the Judiciary-Neta-Babu-Media circus of India. "Joint management" of any piece of Indian territory is remote, if not impossible.

1. There is no provision in the constitution about Joint management of any piece of Indian territory
2. Article 370 has to be repealed
3. The Parliament resolution that whole of JK including POK is Indian territory should be repealed
4. It has implications to IWT and has to cross the sea of babudom
5. It has to pass the Supreme court's basic structure doctrine

Before you pooh pooh all of this remember that this is India, and there is a "System". Even MMS's grandfather cant subvert it.

Mush was coming from the angle of a tin pot dictator of a two bit country, he can be excused if does a media propagandu about his imminent victory.

The Indian state has no intention of ceding Kashmir to Pakistan hence no need to divide up the state.
Nothing in the decades since partition suggests that India is willing to cede any territory or remove its army from anywhere. The pockets of lands in adverse possession on the Indo-Bangla (formerly Pakistan) border remain so. Even a simple matter like Sir Creek has not been settled.

But if we separate Ladakh from Kashmir, we vastly reduce the area we give "special" rights to. That way Ladakh isn't dominated by Srinagar.

Yes but think what will happen if you keep shrinking the land area (and removing the regions which are friendly) where the law that outsiders cannot hold property/Be given government jobs applies. And you end up with a land area whose entire population is inimical to India and the laws there give them massive autonomy.

Dividing the sate will be most foolish as Non Jihadi majority require this danda for various reasons. Its helps greatley in bulding , maintaing democratic process in state. Dividing the state , listening to Jihadi Muslims, self appointed Indians scholars showering free advises to Indians etc are all part of the one and same con package , snake oil being constantly peddled under false assumptions. at least we know BR dont fall for it. Here is interesting news.
http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-ma ... ound_i.php

I'm not sure I follow, how will we end up with a land area with a population inimical to India? I think by breaking it up, we could isolate the separatist areas into a small section, while other places like Jammu and Ladakh can have their special rights removed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/1 ... 33010.html


Ha Ha Ha... The bozo in the White House got duped again.... Will these morons Obama and idiots like John Kerry will ever learn? Do they have any thing between their ears?

I remember MMS speaking to Farid Zakaria, during MMS's visit to the USA. Dont recall the exact words, but MMS was despondent and not sure, if India would remain intact in the future. This statement has remained stuck in my memory as the only notable point of the entire interview.

Secular means separation of church affairs and state. The meaning of church has been extended to religion as in "separation of religious affairs and state."

Religion means the worship of the one God that there is and living one's life by the one book, Secularism means acceptance that The book may vary.

Under no circumstances can religion encompass uncivilised worshippers of animals, trees, earth, wind, fire and stone. Those people have not yet seen the light. Their appearance of secularism is the secularism of ignorance, unlike the JKLF secularism referred to earlier.

CRamS - for the sake of satya - let us assume that at least one half of the story is that Manmohan Singh is a traitor waiting to sign off Kashmir (although I personally believe there is a huge element of Americanitis in this because an Indian PM just does not have the executive powers of a US President although they are consistently equated here,)

That leaves behind at least one other possibility that MMS cannot sign off Kashmir even after walking down the Nobel aisle and adding a piffling half million or so Krona to the 15000 crores already amassed by near and dear ones.

One classic method of negotiation by all Indian political entities is to agree to anything subject to the requirement that the "people have to accept it". This enables the politician to say just about anything and yet hide behind the niqab of "people's mandate". So the story at the very least is less simple that can be made out by the introduction of one greedy traitor.

You're forgetting the 1 million USD for capping and rolling back India's nukes. The nuke deal was the ultimate sellout. Now there are IAEA and US inspectors running all over India looking for Plutonium inside people's kitchens. They harass everybody. Every gram of yellowcake produced is being counted. There are IAEA seals on the launch tubes of the Arihant and their inspectors have quarters inside IAF airbases. There is a special US team inside DRDO that makes sure missiles are armed only with paan. To add insult to injury, the US marines control Pokran test range. India, which used to test nuclear bombs every other Friday, hasn't been able to test since MMS signed.

I don't think MMS cares too much for the Nobel even though it might very well be conferred on him should he make joint love with TSP in Srinagar. Nor is he someone corrupt to sell India's interests for personla gain. Its something more deeper than that. Its his conviction and vision of where he'd like to see India. Thats what troubles and scare me me from his behavior and posture so far.

Let me not reach judgement whether your feelings or MMS's purported feelings are wrong or right.

I met an old friend recently. This person is known to MMS's family and was was telling me about a Sikh relative in Canada who needed a kidney. Apparently the place to go for kidneys is Pakistan (If you are in Canada maybe). Shortly before the money exchanged hands (you won't believe this) human rights groups in Pakistan agitated and put a spoke in the idea of Pakis being forced to sell kidneys for money.

So the plan to go to "Pakistan proper" to buy a kidney was dashed. Instead an alternative offer was made to have a transplant in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. This was agreed to, the money paid and the transplant done in a shockingly deficient place - literally a house converted to have a couple of operating theaters and rooms. A few days after the operation human rights groups got wind of this and arranged to storm the house. The patient and a couple of relatives had to literally scale a wall to jump over and escape, after which they made their way to Lahore where they stayed with relatives who were basically Sikhs who had been forced to convert and are Pakis now. Using their "good offices" the patient and his relatives were able to enter India via the Wagah border. The patient is well now and still sends money from Canada to the donor in PoK.

I want to make a rhetorical point here. I have a dozen relatives and friends who consistently put US interests above Indian interests because their sons, sisters, brothers or other relatives are in the US and their house, belongings and lifestyle was made because of those relatives and the US connection. Many have green cards but live in india These people are as much traitors to India as anyone who has relatives in Pakistan and wishes to see peace. India has lots of people with lots of interests. What you and I describe as patriotism does not exactly conform with what others feel on the issue.

Quote from the MMS statement linked to above:


Isn't this a negation of the unanimous resolution passed by Indian parliament in 1994 that the whole of J&K belongs to India?
Also, the line between Indian Kashmir and Pak Kashmir is not an international boundary, it's only a line of control.

My apologies of this report and CIA, ISI collaboration to get Afghan Taliban was posted before. But if what is reprted is true, namely, even CIA is not sure whether to trust its all-lie when it comes to Afghan Taliban, I wonder what it says about ISI relationship with LET "non state actors". Not that we don't know .

Kaboom

Carl_T that would confirm the two nation theory that TSP embodies. The whole secular image of India is based on the reality of Indians:Hindus (yes people don't like to admit that), Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains all live together. Detaching Ladakh is against that principle.

Simla agreement
http://www.stimson.org/southasia/?sn=sa20020114291


Also see Lahoer declaration
http://cns.miis.edu/inventory/pdfs/aptlahore.pdf

So thats interesting, so when MMS says boundary, he means LOC. I might anger a lot of forumites, but as far as I am concerned, given that India is having such a torrid time holding on to the valley, forget getting back POK, I'd say MMS is a Bharat Ratna if he can pull off LOC == IB. Not the LOC+ or LOC++, joint love-making crap etc.

Yes but citizens of India become PMs and some of them love Pakistan more and some of them love the US more. It is worth remembering that rather than virtually burying one's head to facts about India and living in fantasy-land.

The idea of postponing talk till they become PMs is a transparent and desperate attempt at avoiding a fact that cannot actually be avoided. It only postpones the current argument but does not make the problem go away.

Jaspreet, Are you referring to the highlighted the words? IOW International boundary vs Line of control?

so the PM having some idea about how India is equivalent to what a strayman in India has! is this your line of argument?

and me saying that they are not equivalent is burying my head in the sand!!

CRAm, Shiv and Janab Jaspreet Jee,
There is a Punjabi saying , very much in villages.. "pancha dhi arai ser matthe te par parnala (drain) otthe da otthe ".
Its like politely saying/telling STFU, i will do what i plan to do and nothing will change my mind. Agree to all the arguments, pleas , jaffees and Puppies but nothing gonna amend nothing. Paki know this but they still hope and live in their own make believe.

There is story in Panchtantra about big stud ox and the fox following him for years in hope to take grab of Bull's delicacy mistaken as ripe low hanging fruit.

Not my line of argument alone sir. A lot of people on this forum point out how our PM loves Pakistan and/or the US. I am only saying that he represents thousands of ordinary Indians who also love Pakistan and/or the US. One possibility about a person who fails to recognize what seems to be a plain and obvious fact such as this is that he lives in fantasyland and has his head buried in the sand.

What percentage of India's 1.1 billion population put the interests of a foreign country above the interests of their own country?

Should such people be allowed to become Prime Ministers of India?

Shiv,

It doesnt matter if I like/dislike US/Pakistan/timbaktoo. Those thousands of ordinary Indians who also love Pakistan, Alqaeda, Hafiz Saeed, US, Bush, Obama, Chavez dont matter. These thousands have the same amount of influence on the Indian state as I have, i.e. zilch, nada. Even if they have influence, their influence combined is not even 10% of influence which MMS can weild on the Indian state.

The PM of India is a different kettle of soup altogether. Equating an ordinary Indian like me/others loving xyz with the one on PMs post IS fantasyland.

Speak for yourself sir. In India these Indians are called voters and they do not live in fantasyland. They live in constituencies and have a real effect on what happens at the top.

It is only those with zero influence who have the biggest reason to complain and they are truly powerless until they are able to find a way of expressing their opinion with political clout.