Indian Army: News & Discussion

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 06 Jul 2010 23:56

xpost:

AFSPA: A Soldier’s Perspective ---- Harinder Singh
http://idsa.in/idsacomments/AFSPAASoldi ... ngh_060710

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Jul 2010 13:45

Army to hone anti-terror skills in drills with Big 3

The 1.13-million strong Indian Army is gearing up for joint combat exercises with the American and Russian armies, among others, in quick succession to further enhance "interoperability" withthem from August to October. That's not all. India is also going to hold a military exercise with another big power, China, in the coming months. New Delhi and Beijing are now drawing up schedule for the third edition of their "hand-in-hand" (HiH) exercise, sources say.

Interestingly, the focus of all the three exercises will revolve more around counter-terrorism rather than conventional warfare, underlining the threat irregular warfare has assumed for the world at large.

The Indo-US combat exercise `Vajra Prahar' between the special forces of the two countries will be held at the Belgaum commando school in Karnataka between August and September, while the one with Russia called `Indra' is slated for Chaubatia near Ranikhet, Uttarakhand, from September to October.

In sharp contrast to US and Russia, India's HiH exercises with China have so far been largely symbolic in nature, with just over 100 soldiers participating from each side. But they are seen to be an important CBM between the two countries which fought a bloody war in 1962. While the first HiH was conducted at Kunming in China in December 2007, the second one was conducted at Belgaum in December 2008. The third HiH edition will be held in China.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Jul 2010 20:02

CBI Advises Govt to Ban 6 Ordnance Firms
The Pioneer

More Stupidity , Why don't they Whup the asses of People (MoD, Politicians, Military Officers) who take the Bribes & Throw them in nasty Jails for Decades , Instead of shooting the Indian Military in the foot.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jul 2010 20:20

Not studity but an aim to tie India by the P-Sec crowd

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Jul 2010 20:43

Aditya_V Saab !
What is " P-Sec crowd "

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Jul 2010 21:21

I was hoping someone will take notice of this and post.

A Proud Indian Paratrooper Gives his Life for Congo

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jul 2010 21:30

Juggi G -> I think there is a thread which explains acronyms used in BR, P-sec, Pseudo Secular

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Jul 2010 21:49

chackojoseph wrote:I was hoping someone will take notice of this and post.

A Proud Indian Paratrooper Gives his Life for Congo

RIP brave man.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 09 Jul 2010 21:57

Lost a SF guy in a PKO? Why do we risk important assets in PKOs? Is it to give them combat experience?

naird · Post by **naird** » 09 Jul 2010 22:58

RIP... Jai Hind.

Carl_T wrote:Lost a SF guy in a PKO? Why do we risk important assets in PKOs? Is it to give them combat experience?

Some of the people ask or choose voluntarily to go for overseas assignments -- better pay and a relative break from Counter insurgency operations that Para's are involved in heavily.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Jul 2010 23:02

carl, some PKO are hairy as hell, it pays to have capable guys around.
have a look. http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-unamsil-opkhukri.html

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 10 Jul 2010 08:35

1962 martyr's body found after 48 years

The Indian Army has recovered the remains of a soldier who died during the 1962 Indo-China war from Arunchal Pradesh close to the China border, an official said Friday. The soldier belonged to Himachal Pradesh's Kangra district. "The remains of soldier Karam Chand Katoch of 4 Dogra Regiment, whose name was listed among the soldiers who died during the 1962 war were recovered in Anjaw district July 1," an army officer posted at the Yol cantonment near Dharamsala told IANS Friday. "One .303 rifle and 47 round of ammunition were also recovered from there."

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Jul 2010 09:41

Sachin wrote:
sum wrote:We really deserve all the jhapads when there is no respect for the armed forces.
The Army establishments in Bengaluru IMHO should now build a good war memorial in one its areas close to a public place. And then publicize it to such an extend that people make a point to visit it. I am sorry to say this, but we have come to a stage that Army is only remembered when people are in danger, or else it is slighted and forgotten. Time for Army to "blow its own trumpet" for a while. And in the war memorial, a special section should be made to show how Bangalore Mirror and the so called emminent citizens of Bangalore went ahead and scuttled the earlier plan.

If I am not mistaken, the Army has a neat plot of land opposite to the old BRV theatre on the road leading to the Shivaji Nagar bus stand.

I fail to understand the opposition to the older proposed War Memorial near the governor's house.

We now have housing societies dictating public policy??

May be we should have mohandas pai and his gang from krishna apartment residents welfare association running the kashmir policy. After all trees get damaged sometimes when taking on militants.

When infosys has benefited enormously and out of proportion with regards to preferential land allotment
in prime locations in Bangalore, why does pai have to begrudge a bit of land for our fallen heroes?

Did any citizen's group object when infosys was grabbing prime land in the guise of "allotment"
With their massive cash reserves, they are well able to pay market price for land or does corporate social responsibility have no meaning for pai?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Jul 2010 13:44

The uber rich need their greenery, no? What goes their fathers if a monument for fallen soldiers in not built - as it is, these soldiers/airmen/navy personnel don't even come in their peripheral thoughts......after all, the view from balcony while having morning tea and discussing multi-million dollar is more important.....

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 11 Jul 2010 22:39

Special powers for special needs: Army chief to NDTV

Have not built on the gains in J&K: Army chief to NDTV

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Jul 2010 09:39

chetak wrote:When infosys has benefited enormously and out of proportion with regards to preferential land allotment
in prime locations in Bangalore, why does pai have to begrudge a bit of land for our fallen heroes?

This is what happens when a country dances to the tune of business men. Infosys would be the best example to showcase this. And today media too can be pocketed in quick time by these same business houses, and the media would also say that an Army War Memorial is not neccessary. Infact that land should also be given for Infosys (or any IT-Vity sweat shop) to enhance India's might in IT

. The uniformed forces in India have been tied down with too many archiaic laws, and they cannot even voice out their anger in public (while any bafoon working for Infy can do just that).

I am yet to find a country which could mark its place on the world world do it with business alone. Britain started in India with the East India Company (a group of traders), but finally they too had to run the show using the help of the soldier. It is high time the modern-day banias of India recognised this too. It is time all these Mohadas Pais, Narayana Murthys et.al shown their right place.

Gyle_S · Post by **Gyle_S** » 12 Jul 2010 10:16

Sachin wrote: I am yet to find a country which could mark its place on the world world do it with business alone. Britain started in India with the East India Company (a group of traders), but finally they too had to run the show using the help of the soldier. It is high time the modern-day banias of India recognised this too. It is time all these Mohadas Pais, Narayana Murthys et.al shown their right place.

Chota munh badi baat Saar but everything revolves around business and money onleee. Be it ROTC in US colleges recruiting youngster by luring them for college tuition money or the British Empire backing the East India Company with their soldiers. In the end, defense forces are a means to an end, and sadly most of the times, the end is money or business. My personal opinion of course.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Jul 2010 10:25

means to an end sure but you do not reach the end by throwing the means away, one hoped modern India learnt the lesson through nehru, apparently not.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 12 Jul 2010 11:26

Sachin wrote:
chetak wrote:When infosys has benefited enormously and out of proportion with regards to preferential land allotment
in prime locations in Bangalore, why does pai have to begrudge a bit of land for our fallen heroes?
This is what happens when a country dances to the tune of business men. Infosys would be the best example to showcase this. And today media too can be pocketed in quick time by these same business houses, and the media would also say that an Army War Memorial is not neccessary. Infact that land should also be given for Infosys (or any IT-Vity sweat shop) to enhance India's might in IT . The uniformed forces in India have been tied down with too many archiaic laws, and they cannot even voice out their anger in public (while any bafoon working for Infy can do just that).

I am yet to find a country which could mark its place on the world world do it with business alone. Britain started in India with the East India Company (a group of traders), but finally they too had to run the show using the help of the soldier. It is high time the modern-day banias of India recognised this too. It is time all these Mohadas Pais, Narayana Murthys et.al shown their right place.

I have seen uniformed jawans being harassed by cops in Bangalore.I have seen soldiers being treated like second class citizens in government offices.Probably no serious country in this world treats its men and women in uniform as shabbily as India does.We have a penchant to name streets after politicians and businessmen,how about naming some roads after our fallen heroes? I don't expect India to go overboard hailing its military the way US does (almost every bridge,monument or statue here in VA/DC seems to have been named after war of independence,civil war / other military heroes),but atleast a little 10 X 10 memorial to remember in honor of our forces would go a long way in respecting the sacrifices they make everyday.

As much as i would like to blame the politicians and rich folks like Mr.Pai, the senior ups in our military are equally to blame for their apathy towards the plight of our regular footsoldiers. Armed forces did not benefit from the massive central govt salary hikes a couple of years back,where is the health care benefits for our veterans? Or affordable housing for those who have served for a long time in the forces? Or atleast preferential consideration in private sector jobs like in the US? When a jawan earns a measly sum of 8000 Rs/month in this era of 20% food inflation, they are bound to do wrong things.Is it any wonder that diesel from military vehicles are routinely stolen and sold to truckers? Or the fact that they turn a blind eye towards illegal migration/trade on the Indo-Bdesh and Indo-Nepal border ?

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 12 Jul 2010 14:38

Common man will show more concern for the military only if his basic needs of Roti Kapda & Makan are met. That is one of the reasons why people in the west have more concern for their military.
(Maslow's theory of needs).

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 12 Jul 2010 15:44

Ashu wrote:Common man will show more concern for the military only if his basic needs of Roti Kapda & Makan are met. That is one of the reasons why people in the west have more concern for their military.
(Maslow's theory of needs).

My gripe is not with 50%-60% of our population who struggle to make their ends meet,but with the other 40% who have benefited from the 'Indian economic miracle'.How many middle class/upper middle class Indians even care about our personnel in military,their needs,their struggles? How many of our schools/colleges invite regular soldiers to talk about their life in the military,heroism of armed forces and their sacrifices? How many NGOs care about the plight of our veterans? Just how many of our well off retailers provide small discounts for active military service men/women?

Roti,kapda and makan were major concerns in the former Soviet Union too, but that did not stop them from remembering and appreciating the sacrifices made by the red army. The western concern/appreciation for their armed forces comes from the fact that they understand freedom is bloody expensive and it is a privilege and not a right, and those who are in the forefront of safeguarding the freedom should be the baton bearers .

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 12 Jul 2010 18:28

Common man will show more concern for the military only if his basic needs of Roti Kapda & Makan are met. That is one of the reasons why people in the west have more concern for their military.
(Maslow's theory of needs).

Frankly speaking, I think the common man respects the defense forces more than the upper crust. The latter, through media, regularly show their apathy towards the jawans. How many lower and lower-middle class people have you seen cursing the Army? The worse they can come down to is plain neutrality (in areas other than Kashmir and NE). While the so-called educated and rich classes are never without an "opinion" when it comes to down to defense forces!

And please don't club regular uniformed police with civilians. Especially the poor pandu! If defense forces are kicked about like stones, then the pandus are trodden upon like dust! If they harass an Armyman, it would not be due to any misplaced sense of superiority, but because, they themselves would be harassed by the said civilians' clout later.

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 12 Jul 2010 19:04

Agreed sir, with the observation about common man.
Regarding the upper crust: Why should they bother? I still remember a TV program on 26 Jan where teenagers in an expensive hair saloon were asked why do we have holiday on 26 Jan. The replied varied from Independence Day to everything other than actual.
The upper crust has outsourced the problem of security to defence and police to other classes.Nothing wrong with this. Afterall nobody pointed a gun at anyone else's head and forced him in the defence forces. Everyone who joins does so of his free will and gets paid the salary decided by the GOI.
If the high class does not see anything special in it, so be it...

Our attitude towards freedom was best summed by Om puri in the film Machis.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 12 Jul 2010 20:35

Latest on the Sordid Saga:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/army- ... role-37054

The Army will ask the Armed Forces Tribunal to reconsider its decision in the case of Brigadier Devinder Singh and his role in the Kargil war.

In May, the Tribunal, which addresses legal disputes for the Armed Forces, indicted another senior Army officer for being prejudiced against Singh, and not giving him enough credit for his role in the 1999 war.

Singh took the Army to court in 2006, complaining that his role as leader of the 70 Infantry Brigade in the Batalik Sector had been underplayed, which had cost him a war medal and promotions

The Tribunal sided with Singh, agreeing with his assessment that Lieutenant General Kishen Pal, who was Singh's boss, had incorrectly represented Singh's contribution.

Due to the 'fudged' battle accounts, Brig Singh was awarded only a Vishisht Seva Medal (VSM) and not given a Mahavir Chakra, which he claims he was cited for.

The Army, however, in a review petition, contends that Singh did not act alone in the conduct of operations in the Batalik sector.

This is not completely unexpected. The Gen. VKS will be intrested in letting sleeping dogs lie. Adhereing to the findings can mean an admission of guilt. Which could open a pandora's box of probably new petitions at the Tribunal and probably worse, it could raise a stink which could potentially make Gens. P, NCV, JJS and VPM very unconfortable.

Thats a bad situation to be in.

This saga has two epiodes to play now, the HC & the SC. My bet is Gen VKS is betting by the time its through HC/SC his term will be over, saves him the dirty & thankless job.

Waiting for Devinder's move....

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 13 Jul 2010 03:54

Speed boats for Army to patrol Pangong lake

The Army's quest to procure 17 speed boats that can endure harsh climatic conditions at the lake situated at an altitude of over 14,000 ft. came to a conclusion with the Defence Ministry giving the go-ahead for procuring them on a fast track basis.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 13 Jul 2010 05:22

Gen VK Singh interview (video)

Speaks on AFSPA, left-wing extremism, arms procurement, two-and-a-half front war, cold start.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 13 Jul 2010 06:13

I watched the video. As I was watching, I could not help but make comparisons of Indian Generals to American generals. I have seen pictures of prior Indian COAS Generals and seen pictures of commanding American generals. I cannot help but make an observation that American generals are much more slimmer and fitter than Indian generals. I know that generals are not expected to be on the front lines but they are expected to set forth examples for the soldiers beneath them to stay in shape. I mean, take a look at Gen. Petraeus and Adm. Mullen, Gen. Mattis. They are currently four star generals and admirals and yet they are in excellent shape and can run 5 miles in 30 minutes and do pushups and pull ups and lift weights.

I am wondering what the prevalent attitude of senior officers in the IA are regarding fitness of senior officers.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 13 Jul 2010 08:36

Hitesh-saar,

Now that you have watched the above filim, please to watch the one below:

Pay special attention to time stops at 4:30, 6:00, and 6:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tjFKGM2IHY

I can’t help but feel your comment to be an annual déjà vu type all over again.

How come some nanha SDRE never fails to make the TFTA v/s SDRE comparison at least once a year?

TFTA General can run 5 mil in 30 mins but cant take one hour grilling from McCainwaa

P.S: I myself do not think of Petraeus any lightly than I used to before his fainting spell, but hate it when people see hara grass on the other side onlee.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 13 Jul 2010 08:54

I think you are mixing up Petraeus with McChrystal. Macs the one that runs 5 miles and gets 5 hours of sleep and wrestles with alligators.

While I think Hitesh does have a reasonable question, but some of the comments that show up on LiveFist though: how come our soldiers aren't as tall and masculine as the American ones? Why do our soldiers have mustaches? Latent homosexuality....

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Jul 2010 09:11

Airavat wrote:Gen VK Singh interview (video)

Speaks on AFSPA, left-wing extremism, arms procurement, two-and-a-half front war, cold start.

He sounds like a great guy.

However, I think he was downplaying Cold Start. Why so?

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 13 Jul 2010 09:13

Hitesh wrote: I am wondering what the prevalent attitude of senior officers in the IA are regarding fitness of senior officers.

Well, even the average American aadmi and naari are fitter than SDREs, so that's the baseline. In fact if you look at the sunnier states like Florida/California, the average middle-class/rich folks are way fitter and stronger. Of course that does not mean they are perfectly healthy... they may be allergic to what not... may be asthmatic ... but that does not come in the way... Obesity I think is being countered seriously by the newer generation and the dating scene demands a fitter you

I remember a pot-bellied officer from some tank/inf regiment on NDTV 3-4 years back when some celebs visited there... they apparently had cable TV and all...I hope he was hauled up

OT how do the Chinese soldiers compare ... Pukis I guess are like SDREs only ... ( well they are equal to 10 yindoos anyway... so

)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jul 2010 09:27

^^^Who is this average TFTA amrikhans you're taking about and which "average" SDRE are you comparing them with? Best comparison could be with the middle and upper-middle class in Indian cities - if you go even a level lower, the SDRE will beat the crap out of every TFTA amri-khan - simply because of physical har work involved in day to day life.....and better not compare the fellows in bottom of ladder in cities and no one from rural areas.....those guys walk miles to reach work

As for the US Generals and Indians - why are we comparing a single case or two and using that as an average? As for the pot-bellied officer you saw, he better be able to haul himself and battle-gear in during the BPT...or it is curtains for him...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2010 09:30

time magazine had a photo pic of tsp and indian soldiers in siachen. the tspians looked dirty, bedraggled , religious militia more than a disciplined and well dressed soldiery.

below essay is missing the paki side pics.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/photoessa ... ndia1.html

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 13 Jul 2010 09:45

Carl_T wrote:Lost a SF guy in a PKO? Why do we risk important assets in PKOs? Is it to give them combat experience?

In IT-speak I guess UN operations are onsite opportunities...

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 13 Jul 2010 10:02

sawant wrote:
Carl_T wrote:Lost a SF guy in a PKO? Why do we risk important assets in PKOs? Is it to give them combat experience?
In IT-speak I guess UN operations are onsite opportunities...

I am not sure about our jawans inclination towards 'onsite opportunities' in Africa, but i have heard some of them were more than interested in serving in Lebanon,and no,it was not the gorgeous lebanese women which made it attractive.

(Hint: Israel was pis*ed about it)

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 13 Jul 2010 10:12

Ambar wrote:
I am not sure about our jawans inclination towards 'onsite opportunities' in Africa, but i have heard some of them were more than interested in serving in Lebanon,and no,it was not the gorgeous lebanese women which made it attractive.

(Hint: Israel was pis*ed about it)

Ok what is the reason?

Everyone says Lebanese women are gorgeous...I have never seen lebanese women

[/OT]

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 13 Jul 2010 10:28

Carl_T wrote:
Ambar wrote:
I am not sure about our jawans inclination towards 'onsite opportunities' in Africa, but i have heard some of them were more than interested in serving in Lebanon,and no,it was not the gorgeous lebanese women which made it attractive.

(Hint: Israel was pis*ed about it)
Ok what is the reason?

Everyone says Lebanese women are gorgeous...I have never seen lebanese women [/OT]

Carl, in the days leading to 2006 war in Lebanon, Israeli security establishments accused some Indian soldiers of UNPKF in southern Lebanon of accepting bribes from Hezbollah and in turn allowing them to set up bases and freely move arms and ammunition.Infact, 'Aman' complained specifically about few Indian soldiers who had aided Hezbollah in kidnapping Israeli soldiers that led to the bloody conflict.

Just before the 2006 war,bloggers on jpost were buzzing about the Indian contingent with UNPKF , and how lucrative it was to them to be deployed in Lebanon.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jul 2010 11:07

Israeli dealings with UN Forces on it's border have always been heavy handed - and iirc, there was a case of them shooting at Peace Keepers (indian?) outposts; so, I'll take their allegations with loads of salt.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 13 Jul 2010 11:17

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Airavat wrote:Gen VK Singh interview (video)

Speaks on AFSPA, left-wing extremism, arms procurement, two-and-a-half front war, cold start.

He sounds like a great guy.

However, I think he was downplaying Cold Start. Why so?

Yeah it was the terminology. He said that in military terms they don't use the phrase 'cold start' since some warm-up is always required.

And for the two-and-a-half-front war question he said that army does not think in terms of "fronts" but rather of "threats and capabilities".

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 13 Jul 2010 17:12

Army to contest Kargil order
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100713/j ... 677590.jsp

A row over the narrative of the 1999 Kargil war is set to get murkier with the army today saying it will appeal against an order to rewrite its history after the Armed Forces Tribunal held that it had wronged a gallant officer, Brigadier Devinder Singh. In an unparalleled judgment in May this year, the Armed Forces Tribunal said the official accounts of the Kargil war should be rewritten because some generals distorted the records. Army headquarters sources said here today that since the AFT directions in May, the army had delved into the classified internal accounts of the war. After studying the documents for two months, the army said, it had found new evidence that would now be presented to the tribunal.

Under the rules, the army can either appeal to the Supreme Court or seek a review in the same court. With the new evidence to back it up, the army will seek a review of the AFT directions from the same court that asked for suitably modifying two paragraphs in the “After Action Report” and of one paragraph in the official history in “Operation Vijay — An Account of the War in Kargil (volume III)”.