Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

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SwamyG
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

kubhamanyu wrote:What would be sustainable growth of economy, and wouldn't that be dependent on the state of the prosperity, e.g. "efficiency mode" for the prosperous, and "afterburner mode" for those not? Does the "freemarket" naturally lead to this dynamic -- sorry if basic question, can go to another thread if needed.
My simple definition is it is the ability to exploit someone or something forever without catastrophic takleef to the self. When the jolts or corrections happen, we would want as little takleefprob to as many people as possible.

While it makes many mad that the banks, insurance cos., corporations ityadi were bailed out, what was the alternative? Either allowed them all to crash causing immense immense takleef, or bail out the actual people - financial assistance. The latter option, though my favorite, has problems and would bring more right vs left arguments without solving the problem.

The World, not just the Amerikhans, are pumped up, pumped up with steroids.

Sometimes when I hear the Western takleef, it gives me some satisfaction and hope that this model has ran out of steam and options as well. Extreme socialism or capitalism will not solve our problems. The West has brought so much innovation, what we ought to do is vet the innovation using wisdom. We have learned, hopefully, the lesson that both poverty and prosperity brings talkeef to us. We, as humans, have to ensure the takleef is manageable and impacts as little people as possible.
Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

SwamyG wrote:We, as humans, have to ensure the takleef is manageable and impacts as little people as possible.
I'm all for the idea of a hand up. The tragedy of this is that its taken to extremes where people who make bad investment decisions want offload their burden on others who are struggling themselves. It runs the gamut from the bailout culture to the public sector pensions that want taxpayers to pay for stock market losses of their already bloated retirement funds.

When politicians get in on the act, it becomes downright divisive.

Surely everyone wants some sucker to pay their bills and accuse them of tyranny if they refused to be taxed for it. I'd like to get in on the act myself, where do I sign up?
Satya_anveshi
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Satya_anveshi »

One perspective is to understand what are the causes of the crisis, what role various players played and what impact does it left on desh.

Same while proposing solutions we may arrive at. one set of solutions looking at it from solely US perspective and slightly(?) different given desi interests and general "sarve jana sukhino... stuff"

I see that as one of the aspects leading to disagreements during the debate. Recently a former-indian after the end of a good tennis session started with opinofarts..."we can do this and that", "why can't we do this", "we should do this/that"...having not been able to get out of there and a good 15mins past, I couldn't stop myself asking who is *we" here and follow up questions?

Unfortunately we didn't see F2F since then.
Bade
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Bade »

enqyoob wrote:So if one bought one's house for $X, 20 years ago, to live in it as one was originally supposed to do, and just lived in it and paid off the loan, well... one missed the spike where one could have sold for 4x and "moved up" with a Creatively Financed deal to a 6x house, but one also missed the crash in fund values, and as for the crash down to 2x in value, well... that's still a 100% gain in 20 years, not so terribly bad.
All this is good for those who bought 20 years ago because for the $X they got a decent, maybe even a new 3000sqft home on a 10,000+sqft lot depending on the city and location in it, whereas abduls like me 10 years later could only get a 1500sqft home on a 1500sqft lot for the same $X. Huge difference to the standard of living already at the same price. No American dream etc that the previous generation got largely on a platter. Not to mention the jobs if one has one, aren't feeling any secure unless one is tangentially related to the govt. But even then folks in highly specialized technical line of work for the government face the axe of funding cuts, as part of other line items being scrubbed. I saw the SSC in Texas get its 72 with one stroke of budget reforms and with it all the freshly minted PhDs being counted as wasted years largely, having to go to wall street and other unmentionable dirty jobs that one could dig up.
Keep your Standard of Living a few years behind your Net Worth.
The above adage may be a permanent feature of my generation, who were not invited to or foolishly kept themselves out of the biggest IT-Vity boom time parties of the 90's.
entice buyers by claiming "Buy NOW! Sale Ends Tomorrow!" Free Market in operation.
So this reads to people with above profile more like
"Buy NOW! Life Ends Tomorrow!"
What is the merit of living at half the standards of people of your father's generation. That ain't no progress. :(( or the American dream that was advertised to move to the promised land.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

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enqyoob
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

In the scheme of things, Bade, one way to look at this and maintain sanity is that this is only a "transient" phase of negative slope. The thermodynamic equilibrium argument would suggest that with totally free mobility of goods, services and people, conditions would pretty -much equalize, because if there are perceived advantages to moving, people will do so. In that case, of course the world's population is far too great to enable some parts to maintain the ranches and mansions while others live in slum hovels in a high-rise concrete-and-mud jungle.

But that will "never" happen, because everyone is not equal in many respects. So there will always be efforts to create islands of prosperity, with good (and always improving) quality of life (Q-e-L).

The definition of Q-e-L changes from place to place and community to community and person to person.

Type 1: For some it is the wide open range where the buffalo roam, with a small shack, and a hoss and a Winchester and a bottle of hooch.

Type 2: For someone else it is the mansion on the hilltop with serfs to carry the water up to the top every day - and moats around the mansion to keep out the pakis.

Type 3: For still others, it is the flat on the 35th floor with one window looking out over the soot-filled air over a concrete jungle - but within walking distance of clubs, shops, and millions of people, and limos to take them everywhere else.

Type 4: For others, it may be the 4br3ba-2car-garage on a 0.3 or 0.6 acre lot with a nice lawn to mow every week, in a nice subdivision with swim-tennis and a nice club - and a reasonable commute to work.

Type 5: A 2-BR-2Ba duplex with a tiny garden in a fantastic outdoor-life place with a climate to kill for.

Type 6: And still others it may be the ancient house with the large joint family, all under one roof, with relatives and visitors all the time and brats pooing on the floor and the happy sounds of the -n-laws bickering.

Types are not frozen, they change with one's age and other circumstances. I see no general prediction algorithm

I don't see that anything has happened to make any of these totally out of reach. Patagonia and Alaska and Siberia are still pretty open as I hear, for the Type 1. Type2: Pakistan! or wherever Arundhati is scaring the tigers. Type 3: Mumbai and increasingly, B'looru and even Bangalore, Kerala. Type 4: Much of the CONUS. Type 5: Californiastan and maybe Floridastan, Japan, Korea and much of the Indian West Coast urban areas and Type 6: Much of rural India and "rural" Korea etc.

And many other types, I am sure. Now the other problem is the type of income-generation that is compatible with the above: sure that has changed and will keep changing as well, which is where the real trouble comes.

Is quality of life going down? Hardly. How many people in, say, Khanate will REALLY be willing to swap their modern suburban home and ALL conveniences, for a ranch-style home with ALL that comes with it, from the idyllic 1950s? Even with the nightmare traffic mess, is life in B'looru or Mumbai today really worse than it was in 1970?

As living space per person has come down in urban and suburban areas, other conveniences have shot up. I am not sure that a Japanese person would really want to swap their small home in Fukuoka for a 4Br3Ba on a 0.6 acre lot in Minneapolis. Also, the conveniences of really good public transport, global reach through the internet (do u know where I am typing this from?), quick access across the duniya (at least in theory), far better cars, etc etc etc all really add up to a huge improvement in the way one spends one's time, and sure, there are some tradeoffs in this process - I don't think carrying a Winchester and sitting on a hoss wearing a stinking pair of jeans and a leather shirt would go off really well and attract the rich Ranchers' Daughters a whole lot in downtown San Jose any more. Today one wants to wear baggy pants and ear rings dangling an iPhone, and a green skinhead hairdo and sit on the stock exchange terminal, or be a medical doc to do said attraction. In desh, flaunting the engg degree and a visa to videsh used to do it, today it's again a flat-e-Bangalore and a job to match.

IOW, "ideal careers" also change with time. Can't expect to be always able to live in a ranch home in Patagonia and saunter down Brigade in B'looru at the same time, though one can certainly seek ways of achieving the same experience.

So I'll get off the soap box and leave you to chew on that.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

er... Neshant, did you really look at why ppl ran Ron Paul out of the Presidential race last time around?
Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

Nobody ran Dr. Paul out for he's still up and running and has millions of fans. Average guy is too dumbed down to understand his message with some perhaps too pre-occupied looking for suckers to pay their bills. Why would they vote for a man who promises honest money and constitutional government?

But the people are catching on. He posted 2nd in a recent Republican poll to see who might be nominated for the 2012 election although he has not announced his intention to run yet. Personally I don't care what party he is in or if he makes it to the presidency despite all odds. The party is less relavant than the honesty & integrity of the man himself.

Lately even Bernanke has got the jitters and wants the stimulus to continue and tax raises after 2 years (just after the elections no doubt). Terrible dangers await Ben's job security if 2012 sees Ron Paul as president. :)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by VikramS »

Neshant wrote: You have got the definition of a speculator ass backwards. Stimulus is not free mannar that falls from heaven. It comes at the expense of someone else. Why not give a stimulus to people who bought an overpriced car, or bought a boat, or bought a ..... everything has since declined in value.
You seem to have missed the point that the only people who are going to suffer are people who bought overpriced high coupon MBS with the (now broken) thesis that these loans will have very low pre-payment rates, with the GOTUS guarantee of principal recovery. No one else looses. These MBS buyers were speculators who bid up MBS assuming that these were the same as Treasuries when they are not.

In case you do not get it, read the above paragraph again, and again.

Neshant wrote: I
Housing prices and indeed everything should fall to what the *market* can support. Not what the govt can price fix it to. This is what a renter would expect in a free market but the definition of free market it seems only applies when the parasitic middleman (i.e. banking & financing) profits and not otherwise.
Which market are you referring too? The one where 20% equity contribution was necessary or one where you actually got money at closing even if you had no income? As I wrote in an earlier post, this idea of a natural market price is as an illusion. Assets can be relatively overpriced or underpriced to historic norms, but there is no way to define the natural price of an asset which the market can support, since the market changes every minute.

Fact of the matter is that the decline of asset prices is not going to help anyone. The Fed will try everything to reduce the impact of that. This refi act is like a massive scale reworking of debt which invariably happens when debt goes bad. The best part about this restructuring is that it hurts a few but benefits a lot.

All these Ron Paul rants about Keynesian economics etc. are fine to vent anger. But they are very hard to implement in real life. The disruption caused during the transition is politically unacceptable.

Regarding BP, you tried to catch a falling knife. When you do that you need to have a strategy and an investment thesis in place to help you hold. Chances are that BP stock will be higher an year from now but it will be a rocky ride.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Bade »

enqyoob, all that is fine but it does not address the most fundamental issue in the RE market. Affordability. The US market is largely monolithic if one exclude the NY/LA/SF core areas where things have been distorted in prices even before the boom. There were multi-million dollar homes in Bel-Air and Westwood in late 80's as it is so now. The suburbia is where there is more similarity across the country and which will see more churning and movement every decade or so. This segment caters to the aspiring middle class needs as well as the newly arrived professional-class immigrants.

There existed life before the post-2000 boom period and it was not any worse for common abduls like me than it is now. So if the house prices fall to their natural level before the boom period due to whatever policy contortions that the govt does or does not do now, is not going to affect me or people like me. I am not convinced that it is going to be gloom and doom.

The only ones who will get affected are the ones who played this game during the ballooning period, both who took these loans and those who provided them. What fraction are these households anyway to the total home ownership numbers ? It just cannot be > 50% when politically it becomes clearly difficult to let go of the majority without negative repercussions for elected representatives.

Stabilizing the home prices at current levels is not going to make more transactions happen. Clearly with increased unemployment and non-inflating salaries, the current pricing levels after an average 30% price correction over the last 3 years, IMO is still not enough to move the market.

The only reason to buy anytime between now to 2020 for someone would be if they do not own one already and would like to, before they kick the bucket in another 20 years and kids are currently at the right age group. Rest are not even going to bother anymore for a long while to come.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Ah! Reading is a vanishing skill:
er... Neshant, did you really look at why ppl ran Ron Paul out of the Presidential race last time around?
Nobody ran Dr. Paul out for he's still up and running


Er.. Sorry to wake you up, but the last Presidential race was over on Nov. 6 or so of 2008.
Average guy is too dumbed down to understand his message with some perhaps too pre-occupied looking for suckers to pay their bills. Why would they vote for a man who promises honest money and constitutional government?
Because the average guy or gal is not too dumb to see the obvious: that a man who came up through the US medical college system of the AMA, the most restrictive uber-monopolistic ripoff in the whole universe, has no credibility as he rants and raves about the Free Market, not to mention honesty. But that would seem to have completely missed the Einsteins of the Tea Party. :rotfl:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Ron Paul is like Ralph Nader in reverse:)

He scares away some genuine repubes into rats camp. He is Matt Simmons/ Hubbart of Peak oil scare equivalent of Fed/dollar scare. They both are (maybe?) good friends and favorites of commodity beachesssss :lol: .
Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

Wake up and clue in. Why would I be talking about an election that has long since past - especially when mccain who ran for the republican party did poorly. What matters now is the 2012 election and it may be RP's last chance at the presidency.

If he doesn't have a shot at the presidency, I expect bailout hounds to overrun the system looking for suckers to offload their losses. I also expect big tax increases and a crashing economy with all the fools who bought an overpriced home getting it a time. Actually I expect all that before the 2012 election with or without running up the debt for bogus stimulus spending.

As for his career, he's made an honest living becoming a surgeon in the Air Force before getting into politics. No wall street, banking con artists here!

I'm hoping he will announce his candidature for the presidency at the right time and so are millions of his supporters.

[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wPM6r7HL4NI&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wPM6r7HL4NI&hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

Interview with G. Edward Griffin, author of the epic book The Creature from Jeckyll Island.

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VikramS
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by VikramS »

Neshant:

On hand you bought BP. On the other hand you expect everything to come crashing down. Then why invest in the equity of a corporation whose existence was at risk???

IMHO, Ben will drop enough dollars into the system to make sure that there is no collapse in asset prices nominal USD terms. This might lead to a collapse in the relative value of the USD and commodity inflation but nominal asset prices will not collapse like they did in 2008. There may be a slow trickle down in value and a long grinding process of forming a bottom. You will see several sharp rallies into it.

Note that even the collapse of the USD is not going to be against the current reserve currencies (EUR, JPY) but against the emerging currencies like the AUD, NOK, CAD, BRL, and perhaps the CHF. In the big picture the US is better off than Japan (huge debts but failing demographics) and the EU (no fiscal union to support the monetary union, and demographics).

Frankly speaking, India potentially looks like the best investment destination right now; steady organic growth not tied too much to the global markets.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

Neshant,

Moi is a fan of the so-called Austrian school of ekhanomics and of sri Ron Paul. Though even I would have to admit that some of their policy prescriptions, though theoretically sound, may not always be practical.

Someone above mentions demographics. Sure, unkil is 1-eyed clothed emperor in the blind kingdom of the tfta emerged khanomies in demo-graphic terms. But even unkil has to contend with 'structurally poor demographics' going fwd the next few yrs at least. The boomers, the largest generational cohort in US history, reared a 'gen X' that is like one half the boomer cohort size. And that doesn't bode well for housing starts, shadow inventory and houses to come onto the mkt in the 2012-2014 timeframe. Heck, the boomers, children of luxury and plenty, currently own 47% of national income and contribute to some 7% of its current savings. They no doubt expect the GenX - gen Y and milleniels to pick up the burden of boomer pensions, SS, medicare and retirements down the line. There is a danger though that while gen X (my gen) may accept that burden, the gen Y and others following may neither be willing nor able to shoulder it.

Anyway, here's PIMCO's head sri bill gross on the deep demographic doo-doo facing the tfta khanomies over the next few yrs. Of course, this is but a temporary setback, like sri n^3 says, and things may well bounce back to a new normal in a few yrs only. Or so I hope, but honestly, somehow, don't quite expect. Over to sri Gross now:
Our modern era of capitalism over the past several centuries has never known a period of time in which population declined or grew less than 1% a year. Currently, the globe is adding over 77 million people a year at a pace of 1.15% annually, but slowing.
Bah. The above is scare-mongering of the reverse-malthusian kind, one may say.
Observers will point out, as shown in the following chart, that global population growth rates have been declining since 1970 with no apparent ill effects. True, until 2008, I suppose.

The fact is that since the 1970s we have never really experienced a secular period during which the private market could effectively run on its own engine without artificial asset price stimulation.

The lack of population growth was likely a significant factor in the leveraging of the developed world’s financial systems and the ballooning of total government and private debt as a percentage of GDP from 150% to over 300% in the United States, for example. Lacking an accelerating population base, all developed countries promoted the financing of more and more consumption per capita in order to maintain existing GDP growth rates. Finally, in the U.S., with consumption at 70% of GDP and a household sector deeply in debt, there was nowhere to go but down. Similar conditions exist in most developed economies.
Re the bolded part, 1 may or maynot choose to agree, but I must admit its articulated rather neatly. Now, I'm sure Bill Gross is grossly selling his book here and looking for PIMCO's bets in the case he makes but I also think there's not this much smoke without some kinda fire. There's more than a grain of truth here, IMVHO.
The danger today, as opposed to prior deleveraging cycles, is that the deleveraging is being attempted into the headwinds of a structural demographic downwave as opposed to a decade of substantial population growth. Japan is the modern-day example of what deleveraging in the face of a slowing and now negatively growing population can do.
Not Japan again. the yooyes is not japan. Everybody knows that! Interestingly, the elliot wave superstitious cultists also base most of their cyclicals anal-sis on demographic calculations, am told.
The preceding analysis does not even begin to discuss the aging of this slower-growing population base itself. Japan, Germany, Italy and of course the United States, with its boomers moving toward their 60s, are getting older year after year. Even China with their previous one baby policy faces a similar demographic. And while older people spend a larger percentage of their income – that is, they save less and eventually dissave – the fact is that they spend far fewer dollars per capita than their younger counterparts. No new homes, fewer vacations, less emphasis on conspicuous consumption and no new cars every few years. Healthcare is their primary concern. These aging trends present a one-two negative punch to our New Normal thesis over the next 5–10 years: fewer new consumers in terms of total population, and a growing number of older ones who don’t spend as much money. The combined effect will slow economic growth more than otherwise.

PIMCO’s continuing New Normal thesis of deleveraging, reregulation and deglobalization produces structural headwinds that lead to lower economic growth as well as half-sized asset returns when compared to historical averages. The New Normal will not be aided nor abetted by a slower-growing population nor by cyclical policy errors that thrust Keynesian consumption remedies on a declining consumer base. Current deficit spending that seeks to maintain an artificially high percentage of consumer spending can be compared to flushing money down an economic toilet.
Yeah, whatever.

Disclaimer:
The above 'analysis' does not even begin to take away the fact that we in India ought to be very very afraid of tumultuous storms in the tfta world. Our poverty, backwardness, deep dependence on the tfta world for it-vity stuff etc spell doom only. Let none perceive any misplaced 'gloating' on this dhaga. OK, admittedly, I personally don't mind seeing UKstan biting the dust desserts, but not quite the khan-omy.

Jai Ho.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

In support of Neshant's predictions: (conclusion: any EZ classes on Mandarin 4 Dummies anywhere, pls?)
http://www.businessinsider.com/niall-fe ... z0vFYRr6df

BUSINESS INSIDER MONEY GAME

Niall Ferguson: Empires Fall Abruptly, And The American Empire Is On The Brink

Gregory White | Jul. 29, 2010

Niall Ferguson, writing in The Australian, believes that the American Empire could be on the brink of extinction. His theory, based on a historical critique of how empires fracture and fall, notes the fiscal instability of the Hapsburg Spanish, Bourbon French, and British Empire prior to their falls.

Ferguson then notes that the American Empire could be next, not just because of the size of its debt, but because of the size of payments needed to service that debt. He suggests that debt servicing costs, specifically interest payments, could rise above that of defense spending within the next decade.

And that’s where it gets frightening for Ferguson, who notes that those cuts in defense spending would lead to the decline of the U.S. Empire, a withdrawal from portions of the world, and the expansion of China in the Asia-Pacific region.

Further from this, its quite obvious that this could have an impact in multiple areas the U.S. currently dominates. An example would be South Asia, where India and Iran could rise to compete over dominance in Afghanistan and Pakistan. China could even play there too.


http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/ ... 99088.html

REAL CLEAR WORLD

July 28, 2010

Sun Could Set Suddenly on Superpower as Debt Bites

By Niall Ferguson

We have been raised to think of the historical process as an essentially cyclical one.

We naturally tend to assume that in our own time, too, history will move cyclically, and slowly.

Yet what if history is not cyclical and slow-moving but arhythmic, at times almost stationary, but also capable of accelerating suddenly, like a sports car? What if collapse does not arrive over a number of centuries but comes suddenly, like a thief in the night?

Great powers and empires are complex systems, which means their construction more resembles a termite hill than an Egyptian pyramid. They operate somewhere between order and disorder, on "the edge of chaos", in the phrase of the computer scientist Christopher Langton.

Such systems can appear to operate quite stably for some time; they seem to be in equilibrium but are, in fact, constantly adapting.

But there comes a moment when complex systems "go critical". A very small trigger can set off a phase transition from a benign equilibrium to a crisis.

Complex systems share certain characteristics. A small input to such a system can produce huge, often unanticipated changes, what scientists call the amplifier effect.

Empires exhibit many of the characteristics of other complex adaptive systems, including the tendency to move from stability to instability quite suddenly. But this fact is rarely recognised because of our addiction to cyclical theories of history. The Bourbon monarchy in France passed from triumph to terror with astonishing rapidity. The sun set on the British Empire almost as suddenly. The Suez crisis in 1956 proved that Britain could not act in defiance of the US in the Middle East, setting the seal on the end of empire.

What are the implications for the US today? The most obvious point is that imperial falls are associated with fiscal crises: sharp imbalances between revenues and expenditures, and the mounting cost of servicing a mountain of public debt.

Think of Spain in the 17th century: already by 1543 nearly two-thirds of ordinary revenue was going on interest on the juros, the loans by which the Habsburg monarchy financed itself.

Or think of France in the 18th century: between 1751 and 1788, the eve of Revolution, interest and amortisation payments rose from just over a quarter of tax revenue to 62 per cent.

Finally, consider Britain in the 20th century. Its real problems came after 1945, when a substantial proportion of its now immense debt burden was in foreign hands. Of the pound stg. 21 billion national debt at the end of the war, about pound stg. 3.4bn was owed to foreign creditors, equivalent to about a third of gross domestic product.

Alarm bells should therefore be ringing very loudly indeed in Washington, as the US contemplates a deficit for 2010 of more than $US1.47 trillion ($1.64 trillion), about 10 per cent of GDP, for the second year running. Since 2001, in the space of just 10 years, the federal debt in public hands has doubled as a share of GDP from 32 per cent to a projected 66 per cent next year. According to the Congressional Budget Office’s latest projections, the debt could rise above 90 per cent of GDP by 2020 and reach 146 per cent by 2030 and 344 per cent by 2050.

These sums may sound fantastic. But what is even more terrifying is to consider what ongoing deficit finance could mean for the burden of interest payments as a share of federal revenues.

The CBO projects net interest payments rising from 9 per cent of revenue to 20 per cent in 2020, 36 per cent in 2030, 58 per cent in 2040 and 85 per cent in 2050. As Larry Kotlikoff recently pointed out in the Financial Times, by any meaningful measure, the fiscal position of the US is at present worse than that of Greece.

For now, the world still expects the US to muddle through, eventually confronting its problems when, as Churchill famously said, all the alternatives have been exhausted. With the sovereign debt crisis in Europe combining with growing fears of a deflationary double-dip recession, bond yields are at historic lows.

There is a zero-sum game at the heart of the budgetary process: even if rates stay low, recurrent deficits and debt accumulation mean that interest payments consume a rising proportion of tax revenue. And military expenditure is the item most likely to be squeezed to compensate because, unlike mandatory entitlements (social security, Medicaid and Medicare), defence spending is discretionary.

It is, in other words, a pre-programmed reality of US fiscal policy today that the resources available to the Department of Defense will be reduced in the years to come. Indeed, by my reckoning, it is quite likely that the US could be spending more on interest payments than on defence within the next decade.

And remember: half the federal debt in public hands is in the hands of foreign creditors. Of that, a fifth (22 per cent) is held by the monetary authorities of the People’s Republic of China, down from 27 per cent in July last year. It may not have escaped your notice that China now has the second-largest economy in the world and is almost certain to be the US’s principal strategic rival in the 21st century, particularly in the Asia-Pacific. Quietly, discreetly, the Chinese are reducing their exposure to US Treasuries. Perhaps they have noticed what the rest of the world’s investors pretend not to see: that the US is on a completely unsustainable fiscal course, with no apparent political means of self-correcting. That has profound implications not only for the US but also for all countries that have come to rely on it, directly or indirectly, for their security.

Australia’s post-war foreign policy has been, in essence, to be a committed ally of the US.

But what if the sudden waning of American power that I fear brings to an abrupt end the era of US hegemony in the Asia-Pacific region? Are we ready for such a dramatic change in the global balance of power?

Judging by what I have heard here since I arrived last Friday, the answer is no. Australians are simply not thinking about such things.

A favourite phrase of this great country is "No dramas". But dramas lie ahead as the nasty fiscal arithmetic of imperial decline drives yet another great power over the edge of chaos.

Niall Ferguson’s guide to sovereign debt crises (http://www.businessinsider.com/niall-fe ... -2010-5#-1)

Niall Ferguson is professor of history at Harvard University.
_________________
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Wow! My apologies to Neshant. I have indeed been so cluless that I missed all this fine entertainment. Finally found someone to worship (other than ATM of course). This guy defines "wacko" better than anyone I have seen since David Duke,the Ku Klux Klan Grand Lizard lost his bid for Governor of Louisiana. :rotfl:

And I just LOVE how he takes responsibility as the boss.
Controversial claims made in Ron Paul's newsletters, written in the first person, included statements such as "Boy, it sure burns me to have a national holiday for that pro-communist philanderer Martin Luther King. I voted against this outrage time and time again as a Congressman. What an infamy that Ronald Reagan approved it! We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day." Along with "even in my little town of Lake Jackson, Texas, I've urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense. For the animals are coming." [124] Another notable statement that garnered controversy was "opinion polls consistently show only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions, if you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be" [125] An issue from 1992 refers to carjacking as the "hip-hop thing to do among the urban youth who play unsuspecting whites like pianos." [126] In an article title "The Pink House" the newsletter wrote that " "Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities." [125] These publications would later create political problems for Paul.

At the end of 2007, both the New York Sun and the New York Times Magazine reprinted passages from early 1990s publications of Paul's newsletters, attacking them for content deemed racist.[7] These were the same newsletters that had been used against Paul in his 1996 congressional campaign.

On January 8, 2008, the day of the New Hampshire primary, The New Republic published a story by James Kirchick quoting from selected newsletters published under Paul's name.[45][127]

Shortly afterwards, The New Republic released many previously unpublicized quotations attributed to Paul in James Kirchick's "Angry White Man" article.[128] Kirchick accused Paul of having made racist, sexist, and derogatory comments geared towards African Americans, women, and the LGBT community.[129] Kircheck also accused Paul of possessing "an obsession with conspiracies, sympathy for the right-wing militia movement, and deeply held bigotry."[129] Paul's presidential campaign[45] took the position that the Kirchick story was simply a "rehash" of a political attack received during his 1996 campaign.

Responding to the charges in a CNN interview, Paul denied any involvement in authoring the passages. Additionally, Paul's campaign claimed through a press release that the quotations had come from an unnamed ghostwriter and without Paul's consent.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul
Paul has been described as conservative, Constitutionalist, and libertarian.[7] His nickname "Dr. No"[10] reflects both his medical degree and his insistence that he will "never vote for legislation unless the proposed measure is expressly authorized by the Constitution."[21] One scoring method published in the American Journal of Political Science[159] found Paul the most conservative of all 3,320 members of Congress from 1937 to 2002.[160] Paul's foreign policy of nonintervention[161] made him the only 2008 Republican presidential candidate to have voted against the Iraq War Resolution in 2002. He advocates withdrawal from the United Nations and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization for reasons of maintaining strong national sovereignty.[162] He supports free trade, rejecting membership in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and the World Trade Organization as "managed trade". He supports tighter border security and opposes welfare for illegal aliens, birthright citizenship and amnesty;[163] he voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006. He voted for the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists in response to the September 11, 2001, attacks, but suggested war alternatives such as authorizing the president to grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal targeting specific terrorists.

Paul adheres deeply to Austrian school economics; he has authored six books on the subject, and displays pictures of Austrian school economists Friedrich Hayek, Murray Rothbard, and Ludwig von Mises (as well as of Grover Cleveland) on his office wall. He regularly votes against almost all proposals for new government spending, initiatives, or taxes; he cast two thirds of all the lone negative votes in the House during a 1995–1997 period. He has pledged never to raise taxes and states he has never voted to approve a budget deficit. Paul believes that the country could abolish the individual income tax by scaling back federal spending to its fiscal year 2000 levels; financing government operations would primarily come through the corporate income tax, excise taxes and tariffs. He supports eliminating most federal government agencies, calling them unnecessary bureaucracies. Paul also believes the longterm erosion of the U.S. dollar's purchasing power through inflation is attributable to its lack of any commodity backing. However, Paul does not support a complete return to a gold standard, instead preferring to legitimize gold and silver as legal tender {comment: And marijuana too, c b lo} and to remove the sales tax on them. He also advocates gradual elimination of the Federal Reserve System.

Paul supports constitutional rights, such as the right to keep and bear arms, and habeas corpus for political detainees. He opposes the Patriot Act, federal use of torture, presidential autonomy, a national ID card, domestic surveillance, and the draft. Citing the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, Paul advocates states' rights to decide how to regulate social matters not directly found in the Constitution {Translation: ending slavery was wrong}. Paul calls himself "strongly pro-life", "an unshakable foe of abortion", and believes regulation or ban on medical decisions about maternal or fetal health is "best handled at the state level". He says his years as an obstetrician {er... that was his specialty as Air Force Flight Surgeon?? :eek: }led him to believe life begins at conception; his pro-life legislation, like the Sanctity of Life Act, is intended to negate Roe v. Wade and to get "the federal government completely out of the business of regulating state matters." Paul also believes that the federal government has no constitutional authority to interfere in the religious affairs of its citizens or of the several states: "In case after case, the Supreme Court has used the infamous 'separation of church and state' metaphor to uphold court decisions that allow the federal government to intrude upon and deprive citizens of their religious liberty." {Comment: by "citizens" of course, he means white anglo-saxon Baptists, since he disses the notion that people born in the US are US citizens}

He opposes federal regulation of the death penalty, of education, and of marriage, and supports revising the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy to focus on disruptive sexual behavior (whether heterosexual or homosexual). As a free-market environmentalist, he asserts private property rights in relation to environmental protection and pollution prevention. He also opposes the federal War on Drugs, and thinks the states should decide whether to regulate or deregulate drugs such as medical marijuana. Paul pushes to eliminate federal involvement in and management of health care, which he argues would allow prices to drop due to the fundamental dynamics of a free market. He is an outspoken proponent for increased ballot access for 3rd party candidates and numerous election law reforms which he believes would allow more voter control. Ron Paul has also stated that “The government shouldn't be in the medical business." He also thinks that the talk about swine flu and getting vaccinated by the Federal Government is being blown out of proportion.

Paul takes a critical view of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, arguing that it was unconstitutional and did not improve race relations. {comment: things were sooo much better before 1863..}
American Sovereignty Restoration Act
The American Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2009 (ASRA) is U.S. House of Representatives bill 1146 (H.R. 1146) of the first session of the 111th Congress, "to end membership of the United States in the United Nations" (U.N.). The bill was first introduced on March 20, 1997, as H.R. 1146, to the first session of the 105th Congress (the American Sovereignty Restoration Act of 1997); it was a legislative effort to remove the U.S. from the UN. Paul reintroduced the bill on February 24, 2009

History

The bill was authored by Ron Paul to effect U.S. withdrawal from the United Nations. It would repeal various laws pertaining to the U.N., terminate authorization for funds to be spent on the U.N., terminate U.N. presence on U.S. property, and withdraw diplomatic immunity for U.N. employees.[186] It would provide up to two years for the U.S. to withdraw.[187] The Yale Law Journal cited the Act as proof that "the United States’s complaints against the United Nations have intensified."[188]
This guy can solve all the USA's problems by mining the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, shutting down the airports, and building a Great Wall of Paul along the Mexican and Canadian borders, giving every one of his (white, of course) neighbors an AK-47 to guard against the rest of us, whom he defines as "animals". How he plans to seal off the atmosphere I don't know, but hey, give him time. He's a "Dr" and a brave former Air Force Flight Doctor (to treat the Flight Infantry? Just kidding!) in the 1960s, and still has an 1860s mentality.

BUT>>>>>> hey, this is what these guys mean by "FREE MARKET" 8)
A great Fuhrer indeed! All desis should rush to support him, like rats behind the Pied Piper.
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ShivaS
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

Quietly, discreetly, the Chinese are reducing their exposure to US Treasuries.
This exactly what I mentioned couple of posts ago.
We need to develop consumption of goods and services in India itself, in way if the rampant corruption and black money is well spent in India we have arrived. If it is stored in Swiss miss vaults, well then we will still be like Raj under Brutish, I mean British.
In that sense Encourage DRDO rather than buy Ivan’s or Khan mal. Make Mal (as in bad) locally and employ people to live ever after (all).

But then how will generals in general make money? That’s a 1000 pound gorilla in the room.

Let Indian money Black o White (remember MJ "It Don't Matter If its
Black or White) stay in India and rotate
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Carl_T »

How exactly are the chinese reducing their US treasury exposure? Are they selling it for other currencies?
enqyoob
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Probably buying up US real estate. 8) To build more War-Malts.

When I look at the prices that desis are paying for "flats", I have to come away saying how cheap real estate is in the US. It's no longer necessary to argue in terms of purchasing power parity - Indian real estate is bloated by any standards, and the values being delivered are pathetic in terms of area, environment, services, quality of construction, interior equipment/fittings, everything. Except that the buyers will pay anything to get in on the action, believing that it will keep on going up.

So in the long term as values equalize, why should US real estate not go up again? if nothing else, desis can sell their 1600 sq. foot "luxury flats" and buy condos that are a heck of a lot larger and nicer in a US metro location for less in straight converted dollars, now that the rupee is freely convertible. Same must be true of urban real estate owners from Shanghai or Nanjing or Londonabad or Seoul or Dubai or esp. Tokyo. At least they can buy and hold as a "vacation property".

Look at the Re 1 Crore Bahrain or Dubai flat that they are giving away a First Prize in "Idea Star Singer" on Malloostan TV, and compare the value to a $200K condo in a nice US city, say, Orlando or Miami. I have not done this, but I suspect that with the depressed resale prospects of condos, the US deal will be far nicer. Now consider that the condo is considered a dump because it does not compare well to a suburban home in a place with decent traffic. And tell me why you think the suburban home will stay depressed in price. I can't see it, however horrible the immediate news looks.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

Snow garu: The consumption is increasing, the domestic industries are gaining traction and have tremendous opportunities for growth. But desh should not develop the habit of mindless consumption. Is that even possible, if people get used to more and better materialistic life? The indigenous balancing force is spirituality. I think the World could see a swap of dharma, Unkibhoomi going through the suffering might realize the value of dharma as deshvaasis lose.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

Topical topic. Only
Social Security Jitters? Better Prepare Now (NYT)
The program, which has its own dedicated stream of income, is projected to pay out more this year than it is taking in, but that is a function of the weak economy. Social Security will, according to the last annual report from its trustees, be able to pay full benefits through 2037. {And what if the Hon tfta trustees are wrong? After all, haven't we been treated to a whole bevy of great minds not seeing the biggest khanomic crisis in a generation+ coming? And how often has the Hon. CBO been wrong about its deficit projections? }
...
And while lawmakers may, in the end, not decide to make drastic changes in Social Security, many of the financial advisers and other experts we talked to said they were erring on the side of caution and were already recommending that their clients start saving more now.
'may', my foot. That's a given, IMHO. Ref: "where's the money, honey?"
People 50 and below should change their planning now to incorporate a benefit cut,” said Laurence J. Kotlikoff, an economics professor at Boston University who ran some numbers for us to see what life would be like if the retirement age were immediately raised to 70. That change would translate into a nearly 20 percent cut in benefits, because you would have to wait an extra three years to get the same amount of money, he added.

Several financial planners told us they were assuming that clients in their 30s and 40s might receive just 50 to 80 percent of their full benefits.

{Actually, I doubt any gen X-er and surely the Gen Y-ers who understand Macro-econ 101 are counting on seeng much of any pension/retirement/benefits by the end of their useful lives.}

Or, the advisers say, they may figure that the cost-of-living adjustments applied to benefits won’t keep pace with inflation, {As if this doesn;t happen already. Have to agree with Neshant here that the emerged tfta gubmints have all rigged the inflation indices so as to avoid paying out the real adjustment. Ref Shadowstats on this one} or some other combination of adjustments.

(For the record, executives from AARP said their polls had long shown that younger people were skeptical about receiving full benefits.)
There! How long before someone makes the leap to "Can I opt out of SS of I don't expect to see benefits by my retirement?". Of course he will be hammered down the moment he opens his mouth but just askin', hey.

The boomer union in 10 yrs will form 1 solid vested-interest voting bloc on this single-point agenda of maintaining benefits regardless of the debt burden on 'future generations' that can't vote yet anyway.
One financial planner, who has dual citizenship in the United States and Greece, said he was not taking chances. “Having seen what happened in Greece, I feel even more strongly today that I should not count on any Social Security for me and my younger clients,” said the planner, George Papadopoulos, 43, of Novi, Mich. “I will continue to tell clients not to highly rely on Social Security and think of any money coming their way as gravy.”
Shucks, its starting or what? Let's hope not. Chances are all will be well. This kinda of D&G scaremongering we have seen too often in the past, have we not? Haven't we?

Std disclaimers apply. Tenku tenku.
Jai ho.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

And now the FT comes up with this:

The crisis of middle-class America

Worth a read.

Again, the sky is not falling or anything. The world will get by quite well regardless of what happens to middle-class america, or so the political class in America has decided, seems like. They haven't seen anything yet. Let us hope the US middle class rises up and boots these bums in DC out. Blazes a trail for other middle classes in democratic dispensations also.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Hari, that's been the standard assumption for decades now. Nothing new there.

The key scary wake-up there is "Having seen what happened in Greece". Greek ppl are very similar in mentality to desis when it comes to respect for the law and ethics, etc. Same timeless standards :mrgreen:

Imagine for a moment that Indian states were all parts of the "SAU" like "EU", and were likewise forced by the SAU babucracy and the Duniya Bank, to adopt stringent measures and bring their budgets in line. They would immediately go after the unthinkable - the wealth of Babus who made enough to buy Rs. 1 crore flats on a Rs. 0.8 lakh annual salary inside 20 years. What will this do to all assumptions about desi economics? Consumer economy?

I am hearing that in desh, already, guvrmand decided to reappraise real estate and increase real estate stamp taxes, and demand at least the appraised value in each transaction to charge taxes. Apparently this one step is responsible for a sudden dry-up in demand for new homes.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

They will increase the age limit to get full benefits amnd will tax them more for sure.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

n^3 saar,
I agree.

Desh does have more in common with greece than with unkil in matters khanomic. However, there are also important differences - Des is indebted too but in its currency (a la unkil) and to its own citizens and institutions (unlike any emerged tfta ekhanomy out there - our debt markets are poor, shallow, sdre and closed to outsiders). And unlike both in unkil and in greece, our central bank is an instrument of the state and is thus accountable only to the people of India. The BIG implication here is debt creation in our economy is contained within the economy. The Indian economy collectively largely owes its principal+interest, ultimately, to itself.

And yes, unkil has long known the structural problems with the SS system. And so did, arguably, the aam aadmi. But that does not mean the aam aadmi prepared for it. Or that even gubmint prepared for it. And when push comes to shove, the disruptions and breaks that will come about when something gives way will be felt around the world, including in our little inconsequential subcontinent. Let's hope the unkilian boat is steadied in time before that happens.

Meanwhile, one of the sharpest trading minds in bullion - Jesse - articulates macro Econ poignantly, almost poetically and certainly with a little alarming-ish ring to his polemics. But great info, great style, great presentation. Recommended read:

The Committee to Defraud the World
Excerpts:
Glass-Steagall fell after a decade long campaign involving hundreds of millions in lobbyist money spread lavishly around the Congress, led by Sanford Weil of Citibank, supported by key banking and political figures in the Congress and at the Fed. It involved Senator Phil Gramm, who helped to put a stake in the heart of the financial regulatory process under the Reagan free markets banner, and who recently said the problem is that the middle class were a bunch of whiners. As did his wife Wendy, who as the chairperson of the CFTC had exempted Enron from regulatory oversight, and then left to take a position there on its board of directors.
Wow. The non-bolded part is old news but the bolded part I didn't know. Our very own Sri kalmadi could maybe learn some new tricks here!
Like the Mortgage Backed Securities scandal it involved surprisingly few principal players, like Alan Greenspan and Robert Rubin, who used their power and influence to silence and ostracize critics, and promote a climate of reckless disregard for the public trust under the meme of 'efficient markets' and deregulation. This might have been an innocent policy error if it did not involve premeditated theft on a massive scale, followed by cover ups, denials, and a control fraud that exists even today.
...
To say now that 'No one knew' or 'I was mistaken' or 'I was just doing as I was told' is another in a series of lies and deceptions that have supported one of the greatest frauds in the history of the world.

But this is not history. This episode of fraud is still playing itself out now. And to fail to understand the depth and breadth of this madness is to place oneself in peril, and in the power of those who are twisting the Western economic and political system even now to satisfy their lust for wealth and power. You are only successful if you can keep what you kill.
Ok, the polemic shows. But it is writing such as this that sometimes does cause moi boor heart skip some beats here and there. What if these smart folks see things I do not see and connect them in ways I cannot yet figure out. Maybe they know things I do not yet comprehend. And so on.

Anyway, tis late here. Tomorrow's a work day. Jatrams and all in Hyd city they say. Traffic chaos expected. Perfect start to a monday morning. G'nite all. Jai ho.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

Mud slinging against Ron Paul is nothing new. All kinds of stuff has been written about the man to discredit him in the last 30 years and none have succeeded. In terms of his fan base, he is probabaly the most popular Republican because he is seen as uncorruptable - something even his opponents acknowledge.

The great thing about the current crisis is that it happens at just the right time where things will unfold in the next 10 years exactly as the Austrian school of economics predicts.
Heck, the boomers, children of luxury and plenty, currently own 47% of national income and contribute to some 7% of its current savings. They no doubt expect the GenX - gen Y and milleniels to pick up the burden of boomer pensions, SS, medicare and retirements down the line. There is a danger though that while gen X (my gen) may accept that burden, the gen Y and others following may neither be willing nor able to shoulder it.
When SS was established, there was 1 retired person for every 43 working persons. Not too many reached the ripe old age of 70. I believe the ratio by 2020 is set to drop to 1:4 and later 1:1 ! The government could literally send each working person a baseball picture card of the old guy he is supporting.

Another interesting statistic is that inspite of massive real growth from 1970 to 2008, real incomes have been on a rather slow incline. With a terrible economy going forward and corporate insolvency not to mention tons of people looking for bailouts and handouts, one wonders what is going to happen to real incomes.

Despite the 50 to 110 trillion dollar liabilities that await, the main problem isn't demographics (at the moment) but the lack of any new productive industry which can create jobs on a massive scale. Real estate of the 2000s was no substitute for the IT industry of the 90s. Banking & bull&hitting sure as hell isn't an industry any more than tarot card reading is an industry. Something new (genetics?) needs to come along soon or the US will be in dire straits 5 to 7 years from now.

Without a doubt, the next 10 years are going to see a huge drop is living standards, a destruction of the present system of fraudulent money creation and a new yet unknown system emerge.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by vera_k »

enqyoob wrote:Look at the Re 1 Crore Bahrain or Dubai flat that they are giving away a First Prize in "Idea Star Singer" on Malloostan TV, and compare the value to a $200K condo in a nice US city, say, Orlando or Miami. I have not done this, but I suspect that with the depressed resale prospects of condos, the US deal will be far nicer.
Yes, the US deal is far nicer because money is cheap, rents are high and you can easily generate enough income to have positive cash flow. Not sure about Bahrain or Dubai, but I figure real estate in India is a giant bubble since rents are nowhere close to covering costs. Only difference is that with the favourable demographics, the bubble can inflate for another decade or more just like in the PRC.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

VikramS wrote: IMHO, Ben will drop enough dollars into the system to make sure that there is no collapse in asset prices nominal USD terms. This might lead to a collapse in the relative value of the USD and commodity inflation but nominal asset prices will not collapse like they did in 2008. There may be a slow trickle down in value and a long grinding process of forming a bottom. You will see several sharp rallies into it.
The whole concept of some guy up top price fixing assets and fiddling around with interest rates is bizzarre. It goes against the idea of the free market.

I have never understood how a guy who does not know the market price of bananas could be setting interest rates of all goods in the economy. Its absurd if you think about it that all of industry and indeed the world hangs off every word of one (clueless) guy at the top.

Anyway, I have a sneaking suspicion that Ben will be the last chairman of the federal reserve as in 10 years, there will be no federal reserve. It will be wound up. He'll keep fiddling around wrecking havoc on those who are profitable by diluting the fruits of their labor to a point where they will go from producer to being in need of rescue.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

Hari garu: The middle class crisis thingie has been making rounds in Yahoo and HuffingtonPost for some days now. Have you read "Freefall" by Stiglitz? Stiglitz washes IMF's dirty boxers in public. I remember asking you to do the same some time back. If you have not read, I will be happy to bullet-point his views, nothing that you did not know already.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

Interesting video on the use of Gold Dinar & Silver Dirham in Indonesia in place of fiat currency

[youtube]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nNtIsSWVJBI&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nNtIsSWVJBI&hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Bade »

vera_k wrote:Yes, the US deal is far nicer because money is cheap, rents are high and you can easily generate enough income to have positive cash flow. Not sure about Bahrain or Dubai, but I figure real estate in India is a giant bubble since rents are nowhere close to covering costs. Only difference is that with the favourable demographics, the bubble can inflate for another decade or more just like in the PRC.
If one takes the average or median yearly income (~ $100k) in the richest counties (where the jobs can be found) with a large population of professionals, the price of housing for a 4bdr home with a yard to prevailing income levels, is like a factor of 6 now. It was a factor of 8 or so at the peak of the market.

If you compared a similar income earning group in Indian cities (like Blr) it may be Rs 2-4 million, and equivalent houses are priced a factor of 10 or more in India. Clearly, unsustainable. The saner folks of course are buying flats which are probably only at a factor of 3 wrt their annual income. Not so bad. Now comparing the way enqyoob did with the absolute Q-e-L index, which will always be in favor any massa dump due to better infrastructure, schools, roads, power, water and air quality.

The lower costs of living in India makes it only easier for the folks there as most do not need 30 yr loans to buy a home valued at 2-3 times their annual income. Not so easy in the US with most jobs lasting 3-5 yrs at a stretch for the current generation. No more of those 30 yr work-life at IBM, after grad school and retiring with benefits etc. So overall, the Q-e-S (savings index) seems in favor of Indians in the high end job market of being a DOO or managing a bunch of DOOs. :)

Indian RE price balloon was happening on the backs of the influx of outsourced jobs and corresponding real improvement to market conditions and growth (as in change in Q-e-L) whereas the massa market for RE ballooned after the dot-com bust and accompanied by severe job cuts in the services industry, manufacturing etc. Quite an opposite correlation to ambient market sense compared with the Indian scene for middle class professionals.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by vera_k »

I think you are underestimating professional income levels in the USA and overestimating them in India. But the math is simple. If there is such a population that can support Indian real estate price levels - for flats (condos) or villa/bungalows (single family homes), why are rents for these properties so low?

The housing bust in the US was similarly preceded by many years when rents did not begin to cover the cost of the property being bought.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by hariks »

I think the answer is cultural. In India and China people cut down their lifestyles, save up and buy homes.
Families invest many years into home buying. In China, a boy has to have a home is he has to find a bride (in most of the cases) and so parents and even grand parents invest their savings towards buying a home. With sky high prices in places like Shanghai, some are forced to move to smaller cities - or move out of China to places like Australia or Canada.
India is not that extreme, but NRI investments and high IT salaries have created a bubble in places like Bangalore.
As the infrastructure improves and the city expands, there will be more supply and prices will start coming down. (It has already did in some places - with incentives like Skoda cars for people who buy flats etc). As prices stabilize, people will stop buying for investment, and a correction can be expected. But I don't think it will be like the subprime crisis, since loans are not cheap and usually 10-15yr period (10 yr for NRIs).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

the main problem isn't demographics (at the moment) but the lack of any new productive industry which can create jobs on a massive scale. Real estate of the 2000s was no substitute for the IT industry of the 90s. Banking & bull&hitting sure as hell isn't an industry any more than tarot card reading is an industry. Something new (genetics?) needs to come along soon or the US will be in dire straits 5 to 7 years from now.

Without a doubt, the next 10 years are going to see a huge drop is living standards, a destruction of the present system of fraudulent money creation and a new yet unknown system emerge.
I can absolutely agree with Neshant on the first part, but I do not believe that the second (hope!!!) is necessarily true.

Ron Paul types are good in causing takleef to the smug front-runners in election debates, but beyond that, it is as dangerous to support such fellows as it was to support Hitler as the way to get out of the convenient whipping-boy of "market manipulation" by the then-German govt and the "Juden".

Investment managers will always "manipulate" the market as much as they can get away with, in their effort to deliver better performance than the "Bandar-e-Dart-Thrower " (BeDT) who is traditionally the long-term high-performance leader. Why else does anyone go and invest with, say, Goldman-Sachs or Harshad Mehta (name right?) So they are the ones that caused the huge collapse of the Asian Tiger economies in the 1990s, when the GOTUS, EU, IMF, Duniya Bank etc stood on the sidelines in glee and ripped off the jewelry and everything else of those poor hardworking people.

Now Alla* has given these entities a kind dose of their own medicine, and the :(( :(( is loud and shrill, from oiseules like Ron Paul and T-Partyists.

There is a damn good reason why isolationist policies are not compatible with bega-wealth accumulation - the French and Russian and Rong Malch Revolutions and the Naxal movement are indicators why.

As for Indian salaries, do desi DOOs REALLY get Rs. 20 lakh per saal in B'looru? How many, I wonder?

And I just don't understand the madarssa math of desi real estate, I have to attribute it all to dowry and baksheesh and black money and IT evasion. Plus loans at ridiculous terms that no one ever pays back.

How the heck do you justify an "investment property" that costs Rs. 50 lakhs to build, that you then rent out at Rs. 10K per month, and afford to pay back the loan at 9 percent interest, and pay the annual property tax?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Carl_T »

There's nothing wrong with the Federal Reserve, the problems are on the side of the government and the decisions made by private businesses back in the days when interest rates were low.

The Fed's hands are tied, and I don't think they can instigate lending and borrowing through manipulating interest rates anymore. I think the only solution is at this point, to cut back on government spending and reduce taxes for the upper middle classes to free up capital that can be deployed optimally.

That also means withdrawing from wars soon and investing in human capital for higher levels of future growth.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

SwamyG wrote:Hari garu: The middle class crisis thingie has been making rounds in Yahoo and HuffingtonPost for some days now. Have you read "Freefall" by Stiglitz? Stiglitz washes IMF's dirty boxers in public. I remember asking you to do the same some time back. If you have not read, I will be happy to bullet-point his views, nothing that you did not know already.
Swamygaru, please do.

A bullet-pointed factfile of trendlines which even though could potentially be off the mark due to the nature of the future (unpredictability) would nevertheless be in line with this dhaga'a bayesian mission - interacting our priors with hard-ish data to create posteriors (pun unintended :mrgreen: ) that may eventually converge to the truth regarding the dynamics of the world khanomy post meltdown ("whew").
And I just don't understand the madarssa math of desi real estate, I have to attribute it all to dowry and baksheesh and black money and IT evasion. Plus loans at ridiculous terms that no one ever pays back.
400% agreed.
There's mucho laundering and black money that is helping this process. Just like moi always wondered how come soooo many bad movies kept getting made only when they never seemd to make much (any?) money. Only.
How the heck do you justify an "investment property" that costs Rs. 50 lakhs to build, that you then rent out at Rs. 10K per month, and afford to pay back the loan at 9 percent interest, and pay the annual property tax?
Agreed again.
And when that bubble bursts, it remains to be seen if the losers (Realty biggies all of who suffered major dips in their m-cap post meltdown, realty speculators, the reckless, the stoopid and the unfortunates such as job-loss victims and the like) get bailed out by GoI either explicitly or implicitly. Our netas have major stakes in realty, after all.

BTW, with inflation running at 10% odd YoY, precious little remains in terms of longterm asset classes that will see the kinda appreciation that property currently promises. In nominal terms at least, little to say that property is a losing proposition. Anyway, IMVVHO only.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

I was just looking at a quote in Bangalore, Keralastan (not 2 b confused with Blooru). Oooooold house on 0.1 acre, of which some will be lost due to road right of way, etc., but located at a bus-stop corner with a chai-kada across the street. Essentially one would be paying purely for the land in the hope that some Gulf-money would want to put up a shopping center. Rs. 45 lakh, so this is essentially $1M /acre for land. WOW! And that apparently is a steal at the price. Talk about the matrubhoomi being precious!

AFAIK, u can still buy a 0.6 acre plot with a new 4BR 3.5BA 3car garage house on it in a nice subdivision for $0.5M not far (<50min) from center of downtown Scarlettabad.

Not that I have $$ for either, but how the heck does one justify the former over the latter, other than sentimental wishful thinking or Chicken Little theories about Khanomics vs. rosy future of Keralastan (where the Popular Islamic War Front plans to require burkhas on everyone within 5 saal, if the People's Guerrilla Liberation Front of the Maoists doesn't get there first).

All these Gen Xers :(( :(( about their sad lot and dim prospects at having to be satisfied with 2BR 2BA luxury flats instead of mansions, and mere BMW 330is instead of Lexus 770s, may not remember that in the 1960s, some of our families, say in Peopre's Lepubric of Kelara, went overnight from being brats of middle class types staying above water by owning a few acres of farmland, to starving families sitting in homes with no income at all and no land. Courtesy of the Marxist govt, then.

Oh, and isn't the present guvrmand of Keralastan Marxist too?
Last edited by enqyoob on 02 Aug 2010 08:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by shyam »

Indian real estate bubble must be pricked. Current insane levels have made it unaffordable for honest people.
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