Indian Military Aviation

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Aug 2010 11:19

Every time I see HJT-36, I'm remembered of the massive benefits being generated by the LCA programme.....what a single high-end fighter programme has done to the aeronautical base of this country.......Jai Ho!!!

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 15 Aug 2010 12:26

Cannot we use some of our IL-78 Tankers for Cargo Transport Purpose?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Aug 2010 13:09

Thanjavur Airbase would be a major one soon

Thanjavur Air Force Station may start functioning as a major air base by 2012, said Air Marshal Sumit Mukerji, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Air Command, Indian Air Force here on Tuesday.

“Construction work both technical and infrastructure is currently in progress .

We foresee most of the things to be in place by 2012 and certainly we may have major operations from here,” he told ‘The Hindu'.

The runway is expanded now in the station. The plan is to increase the length of the runway to make it capable for major operations, said Air Marshal Mukerji. The base will be developed to handle not only fighter and transport aircrafts but also refuelling aircrafts. Asked about the type of fighter aircrafts that will be operated from here, Air Marshal Mukerji said it will be decided by Air Force high command. It may be the new Light Combat Aircraft or Mirage aircraft. Final basing of aircrafts will be decided by high command only, he said.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 15 Aug 2010 14:37

Hi....I have a request..
Does anybody have a video of National Geographic documentary on Saras ??
I have been searching very hard for this but so far to no avail...

If anybody has that video...Can you please upload it on some file sharing site ??

Thanks

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2010 18:57

only 2 of our 6 Midas tankers can be reconfigured for regular cargo role iirc.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 16 Aug 2010 19:56

so how many of our il76 can be converted as tankers then?? It might come in handy sometime...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Aug 2010 21:13

none.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Aug 2010 06:25

C-130 J-30 Special Forces

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Aug 2010 08:20

hopefully the NSG can borrow for emergencies.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 17 Aug 2010 08:24

Damn that looks nice.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 17 Aug 2010 09:15

Shame the C-130 India has doesn't come with all the bells and whistles that come on signing the CISMOA.

They should have worked out some temporary arrangement for the C130s and P8s at least.

I hope they also consider the gunship version the USAF has for the Indian special forces also. That is one bad aircraft. Makes an A10 look like a firecracker to the baddies on the ground.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2010 11:31

Brando ,the only temporary arrangement is to sign the CISMOA agreement temporarily with a clause in it that says if this agreement is not reviewed for the next 10 years , CISMOA remains a temporary arrangement subject to some permanent acceptable agreement.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Aug 2010 12:58

comms and EW should preferably be indian or at worst israeli - even if its behind the cismoa chocolates.

we really dont want unkil to get a handle on our SF units, because these are most likely to be used in peacetime.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Aug 2010 13:53

something tells me that unkil will not dissaprove of our SF activities - part of being the IOR policeman et al., however its the full blown war scenarios that unkil will have more problems with

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Aug 2010 17:48

Click Image for Larger Sized Image

"One of the Indian Air Force’s six C-130J aircraft (front) takes its spot on the flightline in Marietta, Georgia (U.S.), with other C-130 aircraft destined for the U.S. and Canadian Air Forces. The first test flight of the aircraft is scheduled for September 21. This program is
on budget and on schedule to deliver the first aircraft to India early next year."
(Photo Courtesy of Lockheed Martin : Marietta, Georgia, USA)

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Aug 2010 18:05

Russians Showing their True Colours

Aircraft Deals with ‘Friend’ Russia Costing Dear
Daily News & Analysis

Aircraft Deals with ‘Friend’ Russia Costing Dear
DNA / Suman Sharma / Tuesday, August 17, 2010 0:30 IST

With an Astronomical 155% Increase in price in Three Years, the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter Aircraft Seem to be Going the Gorshkov Way.

The deal for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was hammered in 2004 for $974 million (Rs4,560 crore), but it was renegotiated in 2010 at $2.3 billion (Rs10,770 crore).

After the Indian Air Force (IAF) wrote to the ministry of defence expressing concern at its depleting strength and pressing for immediate purchase of 40 Sukhois-30s under the fast-track provision, which does not warrant tendering or open competition, a deal was inked with Russia in 2007 for $1.6 billion (Rs7,490 crore), that is $40 million (Rs190 crore) a piece.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under Licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 Billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 Million a Piece (Rs480 crore).

The latest deal will make the IAF inventory 270-strong and India the largest operator of Sukhois by 2018, when HAL is to deliver the aircraft.

But the Escalation in Cost Cannot be Justified, Especially Since the aircraft being manufactured by HAL do not have Enhanced Features, such as the AESA (active electronically scanned array) Radar. Defence Experts, in Fact, are of the View that since the Assembly Line is in Bangalore, where HAL is based, the Latest Deal should have Cost Less.

The deal becomes even more loss-making since American fifth-generation fighter aircraft, F-35, manufactured by Lockheed Martin are priced at $100 Million (Rs470 crore) a piece. F-35, an advanced stealth fighter with features such as supercruise and AESA radar, competes with fourth-generation fighters, such as Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale, in Norway and Denmark for deals.

The American F-16, again made by Lockheed Martin, is competing in India for IAF’s fighter jet deal with Typhoon and Rafale.

IAF already has these four-plus generation fighters, which are awaiting clearance for upgrade in a separate deal involving Irkutsk and HAL.

The “Deep Upgrade” will include enhanced combat features, systems and avionics, which would increase the flight performance and keep the aircraft in service for a longer duration. The biggest feature of the “Deep Upgrade” is the inclusion of the AESA radars replacing the passive radars in IAF Sukhois.

The twin-engine heavy-weight Sukhoi entered IAF service in 2000 after clearance in 1997, but has not undergone any upgrade since.

(All currency conversions are based on current rate and are approximate)

Aditya Watts · Post by **Aditya Watts** » 17 Aug 2010 18:07

Brando wrote:
I hope they also consider the gunship version the USAF has for the Indian special forces also. That is one bad aircraft. Makes an A10 look like a firecracker to the baddies on the ground.

Interestingly, recently I was thinking about the idea whether it is possible for the Indian armed forces to produce a gunship from existing assets, lets say an An-32. It will be something like the vintage AC-47 Spooky from the US. I think the most costly component would be the EW suite since such an AC is likely to be vulnerable to MANPADS and AA-measures. Secondly I am also wondering to which extent such an AC will fit with India's military doctrine. However, since India already has a large number of attack and CAS aircraft, this might not be a major issue I reckon.

Shyam_K · Post by **Shyam_K** » 18 Aug 2010 05:04

I keep on reading that India leased 4 Tu-22Ms, did we actually lease the planes?
If yes, does anyone have pcitures of Tu-22Ms in Indian colours?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Aug 2010 05:17

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 18 Aug 2010 08:52

Juggi G wrote:Click Image for Larger Sized Image

"One of the Indian Air Force’s six C-130J aircraft (front) takes its spot on the flightline in Marietta, Georgia (U.S.), with other C-130 aircraft destined for the U.S. and Canadian Air Forces. The first test flight of the aircraft is scheduled for September 21. This program is
on budget and on schedule to deliver the first aircraft to India early next year."
(Photo Courtesy of Lockheed Martin : Marietta, Georgia, USA)

Why is our nose black while others' are body coloured? Just asking...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Aug 2010 09:08

^^^

Looks like it is not "complete". The first picture has a body-colored nose, but both do not have their props painted yet. Testing phase perhaps.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2010 09:11

Without signing on the dotted line "CISMOA" what we will keep getting is monkey model stuff from unkil without key communications , EW gear and other key stuff.

US will object if we try to put in stuff from 3rd party since as an OEM they would retain their right to do so.

Eventually as the defence transaction grows with bigger deals ,US will eventually shepard India into signing the CSMOA and Logistics Agreement.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Aug 2010 09:48

Juggi G wrote:Russians Showing their True Colours

Aircraft Deals with ‘Friend’ Russia Costing Dear
Daily News & Analysis
Aircraft Deals with ‘Friend’ Russia Costing Dear
DNA / Suman Sharma / Tuesday, August 17, 2010 0:30 IST

With an Astronomical 155% Increase in price in Three Years, the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter Aircraft Seem to be Going the Gorshkov Way.

The deal for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was hammered in 2004 for $974 million (Rs4,560 crore), but it was renegotiated in 2010 at $2.3 billion (Rs10,770 crore).

After the Indian Air Force (IAF) wrote to the ministry of defence expressing concern at its depleting strength and pressing for immediate purchase of 40 Sukhois-30s under the fast-track provision, which does not warrant tendering or open competition, a deal was inked with Russia in 2007 for $1.6 billion (Rs7,490 crore), that is $40 million (Rs190 crore) a piece.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under Licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 Billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 Million a Piece (Rs480 crore).

The latest deal will make the IAF inventory 270-strong and India the largest operator of Sukhois by 2018, when HAL is to deliver the aircraft.

But the Escalation in Cost Cannot be Justified, Especially Since the aircraft being manufactured by HAL do not have Enhanced Features, such as the AESA (active electronically scanned array) Radar. Defence Experts, in Fact, are of the View that since the Assembly Line is in Bangalore, where HAL is based, the Latest Deal should have Cost Less.

The deal becomes even more loss-making since American fifth-generation fighter aircraft, F-35, manufactured by Lockheed Martin are priced at $100 Million (Rs470 crore) a piece. F-35, an advanced stealth fighter with features such as supercruise and AESA radar, competes with fourth-generation fighters, such as Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale, in Norway and Denmark for deals.

The American F-16, again made by Lockheed Martin, is competing in India for IAF’s fighter jet deal with Typhoon and Rafale.

IAF already has these four-plus generation fighters, which are awaiting clearance for upgrade in a separate deal involving Irkutsk and HAL.

The “Deep Upgrade” will include enhanced combat features, systems and avionics, which would increase the flight performance and keep the aircraft in service for a longer duration. The biggest feature of the “Deep Upgrade” is the inclusion of the AESA radars replacing the passive radars in IAF Sukhois.

The twin-engine heavy-weight Sukhoi entered IAF service in 2000 after clearance in 1997, but has not undergone any upgrade since.

(All currency conversions are based on current rate and are approximate)

Its time to say "Dasvedanya" to russkies I guess, they are turning out to be as/more expensive then Western countries minus the tech advancement. Perhaps that is why MoD is slowly moving towards C 130, C 17s and western MRCA. If this su 30 price is true then French/EU are justified with Rafale/EF prices.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2010 10:47

its nice to see those C130s still being churned out.

if only we could get similar photos of IL76's and An124s in tashkent and ukraine factory, things would be much better.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Aug 2010 13:52

Russia Continues to Dominate Indian Skies

IL-76

India has also purchased six Il 78 midair refuelers and three IL 76 aircraft for accommodating the Israeli Phalcon electronic radars, two of which have been delivered to India. The third Phalcon is due by end-2010.
Meanwhile, IAF has ordered two more Phalcons on the same IL 76 platform.

Notably, as the Phalcon Radars are Heavy, the IL 76 Airlifters have been Upgraded with more Powerful PS-90 Engines,
the Cost though for them is Quite High and Not Considered Appropriate for UpGrading the IAF’s Fleet of Less than 20 old Soviet-Vintage Il 76 aircraft.

Air Chief Marshal Naik disclosed that the IL 76s, first acquired in April 1985, are also under Life Extension Under a Contract with Russia.

“The Life Extension of IL-76 aircraft would Involve Complete Overhaul of Airframe at the Vendor’s Premises in Russia…

The First Aircraft has already been Positioned and the Servicing has Commenced.

Various other Upgrades would be Executed in India.

Post-Servicing, the Aircraft would be Available to us for More than 10 Years,” he said.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Aug 2010 13:54

Russia Continues to Dominate Indian Skies

Mi-17 V5

New Delhi : Russia is set to win another order for 59 multi role Mi 17 V5 helicopters in addition to the 80 ordered earlier, retaining Moscow’s traditionally dominant lead in selling military aircraft to New Delhi.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told India Strategic in an interview that the delivery of the first lot of 80 Mi 17 helicopters, ordered in 2008, would begin from later this year while the Indian Air Force (IAF) was now processing another request for an additional 59 helicopters.

A Mi 17 V5 Helicopter Reportedly Costs around $ Five Million (total nearly $ 700 million for 139 Machines). (I Don't Think its True or Accurate)

With All these Piece-Meal Mi-17 V5 Orders & More Still to Come, Wouldn't it have been better to set up a Production Line in India under a Very Deep License & make the Engines & Spares of the Mi-17 V5 also here. Like the damn Chinese are doing for Mi-17 Helicopters.
If PSU HAL's hands are bloody Full then Private Sector Companies Like L&T can do it.
140 Mi-17 V5 ( Lets say 60 more ) are these Numbers enough to lend Economies of Scale & Make a Factory in India Feasible and Cost Effective or Not

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Aug 2010 14:35

Juggi G wrote:
With All these Piece-Meal Mi-17 V5 Orders & More Still to Come, Wouldn't it have been better to set up a Production Line in India under a Very Deep License & make the Engines & Spares of the Mi-17 V5 also here. Like the damn Chinese are doing for Mi-17 Helicopters.
If PSU HAL's hands are bloody Full then Private Sector Companies Like L&T can do it.
140 Mi-17 V5 ( Lets say 60 more ) are these Numbers enough to lend Economies of Scale & Make a Factory in India Feasible and Cost Effective or Not

These are strategic purchase for foreign policy
These monies will take care of several issues including future deals with US.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2010 14:55

The Mi-17V5 deal has its merits as it constitutes the back bone of IAF transport fleet , it has earned its reputation in Afghanistan where the US is keen to fund the purchase over the S-70 , ofcourse not many congress men like the idea.

The Mi-17 is turning out to be a great success so much so that they are planning to cancel the Mi-38 program and come up with an all glass cockpit and upgrade engine variant of Mi-17 , it seems the upgraded vairant of Mi-17 which will be broadly comparable to Mi-38 in load capability will cost $ 5 -6 million compared to Mi-38 $12 - 13 million.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 18 Aug 2010 15:51

When the deal for 80 Mi-17 signed, the posters in this forum pointed out the need for starting a production line. It was also estimated that we may require further helicopters of these size. It would have been in the interest of India if we would have started the production line like china. Unfortunately The argument came against this was that HAL would have its own chopper of MI-17 class by now.

Now the Helicopters in the UN service are being called back because of the unavailability of choppers.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 18 Aug 2010 18:39

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 330288.cms

3 officers in killed in helicopter crash in Nagaland. These stories are getting sickening. When will it end?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 18 Aug 2010 18:49

Someone in India has to say 'enough is enough'. Hardly anyone does. And when that happens, as in after the Mumbai terrorist attack, the Indian 'intellectuals' will ridicule or pour cold water over even the public display of the sentiment.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Aug 2010 22:41

Varoon Shekhar wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 330288.cms

3 officers in killed in helicopter crash in Nagaland. These stories are getting sickening. When will it end?

Why is it sickening? Or are you going to come out with another 'flying coffin' argument?

Flying is a hazardous job and military flying in areas like NE is hazardous still. Accidents are part and parcel of military flying - those who do this job understand this only too well.

There are better ways and language to express your concern.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 18 Aug 2010 22:43

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Someone in India has to say 'enough is enough'

"Enough is Enough". There.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 Aug 2010 23:02

Varoon - planes crash all over due to varied reasons - equipment failure, pilot error, weather conditions etc. Every crash should make us strive harder to avoid crashes.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 20 Aug 2010 13:46

Aditya Watts wrote: Interestingly, recently I was thinking about the idea whether it is possible for the Indian armed forces to produce a gunship from existing assets, lets say an An-32. It will be something like the vintage AC-47 Spooky from the US. I think the most costly component would be the EW suite since such an AC is likely to be vulnerable to MANPADS and AA-measures. Secondly I am also wondering to which extent such an AC will fit with India's military doctrine. However, since India already has a large number of attack and CAS aircraft, this might not be a major issue I reckon.

Definitely a possible solution with the An-32 but I doubt it would have the same punch as the AC-130 with its howitzer and all since the An-32s are an older platform. A new alternative might be the C-27J Spartan which the USAF was considering in the AC-27J Stinger II to replace the aging AC-130s. A gunship model would be invaluable in the special operations infil-exfil-cas / urban warfare scenarios. The USAF has used the AC-130s extensively in Iraq and Afghanistan with good success. They mainly use them at nights to reduce the risk of rpg's and other shoulder launched weapons. It may not be ideal in a war with Pakistan or China but it would be pretty useful during insertion and extraction of special forces troops or securing forward airfields from being overrun etc. The main problem would be the integration of all that heavy weaponry in the aircraft. All those vibrations and stresses wouldn't be a picnic on the airframe. Besides, it would need to have significant loiter time as well. I don't know the exact costs, but I think it would be cheaper to get one of these C-130s/C27s in the air than sortie CAS fighters to do the same job.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Aug 2010 14:05

The IAF uses Mi 17s armed with machine guns that can deposit up to 1000 rounds per minute on a target in the gunship role.

Did nobody see this video?

23 MB download
Mi-17 armament role

Link to all videos
http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/show_vayushakti.php

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Aug 2010 14:22

Guys,

having a line for the HELOs is one thing. We need to have a HELO road map for the future. A nation with our asppirations cannot keep on importing stuff or using screw driver tech.

The armed forces as the user need to come up a long term requirements and the national industry must be given a free hand build the capicity and experitse to fuilfill the same.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Aug 2010 21:46

Definitely a possible solution with the An-32 but I doubt it would have the same punch as the AC-130 with its howitzer and all since the An-32s are an older platform.

Hope that we never see the word Howitzer and aircraft in the same sentence else the IAF would have to suffer the IA's fate in having countless trials to select the howitzer to be placed in the aircraft!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2010 23:06

Or the IAF takes the IA howitzer budget and buys more C-130s with howitzers inside them!!

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 22 Aug 2010 10:37

cross post

Gentle beebul of BRF, was going through me old mag collection and found a gem: Aircraft Illustrated 2007 Sept Issue.

Has two articles on ze Rambha onlee.

One is about MKIs at Waddington and the 2nd one is by Watson and Camp on IAF MKI Force.

Rambha fanatics will recognise that the Watson and Camp article has pics that are mostly from their book.

Enjoi onlee...

P.S. the zip has both the files in Jpeg onlee.
http://ifile.it/vpuwy3a/MKI.zip