China Military Watch

[svinayak]

Even US doesn't want to mess with China alone, they pull all Asian powers support. Why not India spend $30 billions on advanced missiles. Ignore US, Russia, MTCR, China, Porkistan etc., Just spend on advanced missiles, lets wait to see who dare to mess with us.

If you think India can bully the world into submission with a few ICBMs, you're sorely mistaken.

Which country are you guys from? At least we will have some grounding on your expectations and assumptions.

[TonyMontana]

Which country are you guys from? At least we will have some grounding on your expectations and assumptions.

Are you addressing the question to me or Thomas? Are you saying that all India need for national security and economic growth is ICBMs? Or are you suggesting it's somewhere in the middle of our arguments?

[Thomas Kolarek]

I never said you get World into submission with ICBM's. "Don't mess with India" - that's the point we ought to convey.

[SShah]

A good one Acharya!

There's a little doubt that the Chinese are probably the only country which can pose (even a little) threat to the US. However, as far as US goes, headlines that we often read about US taking notice of China's ICBM build up is nothing more than an act of certain US interests (defense contractors, defense lobbyists, the conservative republicans, etc.) to convince the US decision makers (the US Senate, the Congress, defense policy advisers, etc.) of spending more on certain defense projects and keep a number of skunk-work development in progress.

[Hari Seldon]

Montana dude, why don't you answer sri acharya's question? Which country are you from and why are you so invested in burnishing the already blindingly bright image and achievements of PRC in the cheena threads so much? Like he says:

At least we will have some grounding on your expectations and assumptions.

BTW, sri montana is oh-so-right only. A few ICBM level missiles here and there won't change anything. Am sure there will be little to no reaction if and when Delhi decides to test, induct and deploy an ICBM triad. Only.
Another piece of evidence is the whole world agog at the possibility of an Iran or Pak getting its hands on one. POintless really, cause these things don't matter.

[TonyMontana]

Montana dude, why don't you answer sri acharya's question? Which country are you from and why are you so invested in burnishing the already blindingly bright image and achievements of PRC in the cheena threads so much? Like he says:

At least we will have some grounding on your expectations and assumptions.

I've lurked BRF long enough is the answer I'm going to give you. I decided finally to contribute to the discussion because I think BRF is one of the best monitored board for discussion on the region. However, there is still a portion of the board who has a very narrow preconception of certain people. And all my arguments will be coloured wholesale with those preconceptions. I think I would enjoy my stay here more if you could respond and judge my comment on their merits.

BTW, sri montana is oh-so-right only. A few ICBM level missiles here and there won't change anything. Am sure there will be little to no reaction if and when Delhi decides to test, induct and deploy an ICBM triad. Only.
Another piece of evidence is the whole world agog at the possibility of an Iran or Pak getting its hands on one. POintless really, cause these things don't matter.

Good strawman argument. What I meant was ICBM will not be the magic cure that some people here think will solve all of India's problems. Too many people on here are way too comfortable with the prospect of nuclear warfare. Was China's rise today due to their ICBMs? This is like saying Dirty Harry was awesome because he had the .44 mag. And if I had one I will be awesome too. Sure it helped, but in the end it was Dirty Harry who is awesome.

P.S. After reading my last paragraph, I'm sure I'll be called a ChiCom Bot for comparing China with Dirty Harry and calling China Awesome. That's not what I meant. Just trying to prove the bolded part of my argument.

[Brando]

^Who said, we would limit ourselves to a "few" ?? A thousand or so ICBMs with multiple nukes each should underscore the point sufficiently for people to take notice. The problem now being that the Indian military is too open, with every new project or endeavor endlessly discussed and debated about with "press leaks" and what not. If suddenly one day, India was mass producing ICBMs and storing them in ready to fire silos- believe you -me, they will take notice! Further you are missing the point, economic development can only occur under the umbrella of political stability and national security. ICBM's would help India keep the Chinese at bay, just as the Chinese were able to keep the Americans at bay while they developed.
However, the main point still remains, there are no alternatives to economic prosperity to achieve greater power. The Indian economy needs to reach at least 5 trillion by 2020-thats nearly 5 times what we are presently if we are to remain in the race. Another economic revolution needs to happen for that.

[TonyMontana]

^Who said, we would limit ourselves to a "few" ?? A thousand or so ICBMs with multiple nukes each should underscore the point sufficiently for people to take notice. The problem now being that the Indian military is too open, with every new project or endeavor endlessly discussed and debated about with "press leaks" and what not. If suddenly one day, India was mass producing ICBMs and storing them in ready to fire silos- believe you -me, they will take notice!

How much will this cost? Take notice of what? Nuclear warfare is a BIG DEAL. Even threatening it is a VERY BIG DEAL. Besides that, did it work out for the USSR?

Further you are missing the point, economic development can only occur under the umbrella of political stability and national security. ICBM's would help India keep the Chinese at bay, just as the Chinese were able to keep the Americans at bay while they developed.

This is your irrational fear speaking. Like the American militia types on gun boards that dreams of foreign occupation so they can go all "wolverine!". There's no Chinese horde massing at the gate. The Chinese Plan for Total World Domination doesn't involve invading India as the first step. So what are you threatening the Chinese with extermination for? Boarder disputes? Are you willing to exterminate Chinese civilisation over a few hundred square miles of land? The Chinese know you wouldn't. So all the "pin pricks" and "string of pearls" will still continue. What have you achieved besides wasting money on things you never gonna use? Or as the last thing you use?

However, the main point still remains, there are no alternatives to economic prosperity to achieve greater power. The Indian economy needs to reach at least 5 trillion by 2020-thats nearly 5 times what we are presently if we are to remain in the race. Another economic revolution needs to happen for that.

This I agree with 100%. This was my point the whole time too.

[Nihat]

Agni-V is a step in right direction, since its off the drawing board and due for testing next year , I don't relly see a bigger deterrant than that for China with India having the ability to hit part of China from the its interior. As a missile capable of hitting the big cities of China like Beijing and Shanghai and Shenzen the Agni 3 is already under induction. Nobody knows how and where they are being deployed and like all of us , China can only guess.

Next step is the development of Long range SLBM's , from the K-15 to the Agni-3 underwater launch version and a fleet of atleast half a dozen nuke subs as platforms for launching them. This still remains the ulminate in deterrance, the hedge against overt Chinese aggression.

However, no ammoun of military might such as DF-21 etc have intimidated the US into staying out of Soutch China sea , so it can be easily inferred that Military deterrance has limited value.

[Brando]

What I meant was ICBM will not be the magic cure that some people here think will solve all of India's problems. Too many people on here are way too comfortable with the prospect of nuclear warfare. Was China's rise today due to their ICBMs? This is like saying Dirty Harry was awesome because he had the .44 mag. And if I had one I will be awesome too. Sure it helped, but in the end it was Dirty Harry who is awesome.

Its a philosophical question whether the .44 mag made Dirty Harry or Dirty Harry made the .44 mag. However, everybody will tell you, you can't have one without the other.

Nobody is comfortable with nuclear war, but neither are Indians so afraid as the West to not contend with the possibility.

You seem to allude somehow that China has all its bases covered and somehow their economic rise now has "solved their problems". What problems have the really solved ? Economic ? Not really, considering that even though most people can get a job, their jobs generally lead them nowhere except more of the same. Most Chinese people aren't allowed to enjoy the comforts of their lavish cities like Beijing or Shanghai . Most Chinese can't even live where they want. Most Chinese are exposed to a ridiculous judiciary with barely any appeals process, that believes in expediency over fairness. Most Chinese can't express themselves religiously or politically without fear of offending the state. Your much vaunted "economic revolution" is little more than the state lining the pockets of their citizens to keep them down so that the Communist party and their sycophants can retain absolute power over all the masses while gaining enormous wealth. True, ICBM's have not brought prosperity but neither has prosperity brought them something even more basic - freedom!

[TonyMontana]

Agni-V is a step in right direction, since its off the drawing board and due for testing next year , I don't relly see a bigger deterrant than that for China with India having the ability to hit part of China from the its interior. As a missile capable of hitting the big cities of China like Beijing and Shanghai and Shenzen the Agni 3 is already under induction. Nobody knows how and where they are being deployed and like all of us , China can only guess.

Next step is the development of Long range SLBM's , from the K-15 to the Agni-3 underwater launch version and a fleet of atleast half a dozen nuke subs as platforms for launching them. This still remains the ulminate in deterrance, the hedge against overt Chinese aggression.

Long range missiles are strategic weapons, not tactical weapons. So what's the strategy? You build the weapon to suit the strategy, you don't build a strategy around a weapon. Nuclear weapon is ONLY a hedge against Nuclear warfare(or civilisational survival). Does China today threatens India's civilisational survival? Does having these weapons decrease China's threat on india's civilisational survival?

However, no ammoun of military might such as DF-21 etc have intimidated the US into staying out of Soutch China sea , so it can be easily inferred that Military deterrance has limited value.

My point exactly.

[TonyMontana]

Its a philosophical question whether the .44 mag made Dirty Harry or Dirty Harry made the .44 mag. However, everybody will tell you, you can't have one without the other.

Agreed. But it was Dirty Harry that got the .44 Mag. Harry didn't get the .44 Mag and became Dirty Harry overnight. Economic growth before shiny toys.

Nobody is comfortable with nuclear war, but neither are Indians so afraid as the West to not contend with the possibility.

Very brave. But does that mean you propose to use nukes first? That's a whole different philosophical discussion.

You seem to allude somehow that China has all its bases covered and somehow their economic rise now has "solved their problems".

You understood me incorrectly. Their economic rise solved some problems and created others. But it cause their "rise" none the less. India will never "rise" with ICBMs. India will "rise" with her economy.

What problems have the really solved ? Economic ? Not really, considering that even though most people can get a job, their jobs generally lead them nowhere except more of the same. Most Chinese people aren't allowed to enjoy the comforts of their lavish cities like Beijing or Shanghai . Most Chinese can't even live where they want. Most Chinese are exposed to a ridiculous judiciary with barely any appeals process, that believes in expediency over fairness. Most Chinese can't express themselves religiously or politically without fear of offending the state. Your much vaunted "economic revolution" is little more than the state lining the pockets of their citizens to keep them down so that the Communist party and their sycophants can retain absolute power over all the masses while gaining enormous wealth. True, ICBM's have not brought prosperity but neither has prosperity brought them something even more basic - freedom!

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. And Yay for freedom!

[svinayak]

Very brave. But does that mean you propose to use nukes first? That's a whole different philosophical discussion.

Still you have not answered my question

[TonyMontana]

Still you have not answered my question

Please see my response to Hari Seldon.

I've lurked BRF long enough is the answer I'm going to give you. I decided finally to contribute to the discussion because I think BRF is one of the best monitored board for discussion on the region. However, there is still a portion of the board who has a very narrow preconception of certain people. And all my arguments will be coloured wholesale with those preconceptions. I think I would enjoy my stay here more if you could respond and judge my comment on their merits.

[Vivek K]

Which country are you guys from? At least we will have some grounding on your expectations and assumptions.

Tony, you should answer Acharya's question. Your reply here could be taken as a means to attack your views. However, not replying will lead to other questions and problems.

I do agree that we need to get our house in order, first politically then economically and finally militarily. We have to get rid (put behind bars) of lunatics like Laloo, Mulayam, Mamta, etc.

[TonyMontana]

Tony, you should answer Acharya's question. Your reply here could be taken as a means to attack your views. However, not replying will lead to other questions and problems.

Ref. the bolded part of your statement. What are these? And most importantly, why are they problems? But, since you asked nicely, I'm from New Zealand.

[Hari Seldon]

I've lurked BRF long enough is the answer I'm going to give you.

long enough? I see.

I decided finally to contribute to the discussion because I think BRF is one of the best monitored board for discussion on the region.

If its well monitored why do you fret your POV maybe censored if you reveal your nationality and/or loyalty?
It matters when people purport to speak with/without a perspective regarding certain stances that nations should take. Anyone can quote selective facts and push one POV. How is one to know whose agenda you are pushing?

However, there is still a portion of the board who has a very narrow preconception of certain people.

And over half of those 'certain people' we've received from TSP and PRC on this board in the last few yrs of my time here were disruptive drones. Anyone here can vouch for it - from jyang to piyengar. Are you saying we shouldn't squelch out BS?

And all my arguments will be coloured wholesale with those preconceptions.

And you know that how? The insinuation against this board and its posters you are making is uncalled for.

I think I would enjoy my stay here more if you could respond and judge my comment on their merits.

Your enjoyment is upto you. Not my concern. Foreigners who are comfortable enough to reveal their nationality have been welcomed and have shared their perspective (witness Akalam in the BD threads, one Johann in the mil threads etc).

Anyway, your reluctance reveals more than your honesty would have.
/Have a nice day.
Jai ho.

[svinayak]

Ref. the bolded part of your statement. What are these? And most importantly, why are they problems? But, since you asked nicely, I'm from New Zealand.

So you are saying that I did not ask nicely. That was too cheeky. Anyways forgiven but have you visited India. Are you chinese origin?

[Brando]

How much will this cost? Take notice of what? Nuclear warfare is a BIG DEAL. Even threatening it is a VERY BIG DEAL. Besides that, did it work out for the USSR?

How much will our loss of independence cost us ?? Just ask our forefathers who saw our lands raped because of our inability to defend ourselves from foreigners. We will not allow that to happen again. Nuclear war is a small price to pay for freedom and against domination by foreign powers. Nuclear warfare is indeed a big deal but our loss of independence is a MUCH MUCH bigger deal, that we would bet everything on. The USSR didn't loose the Cold war because it lacked nukes, it lost the cold war because its leaders lost the support of their people. Everybody in India agrees that we can't afford to risk our sovereignty for any price .

This is your irrational fear speaking. Like the American militia types on gun boards that dreams of foreign occupation so they can go all "wolverine!". There's no Chinese horde massing at the gate. The Chinese Plan for Total World Domination doesn't involve invading India as the first step. So what are you threatening the Chinese with extermination for? Boarder disputes? Are you willing to exterminate Chinese civilisation over a few hundred square miles of land? The Chinese know you wouldn't.

How do the Chinese know anything for sure? That is the whole point of MAD. Otherwise, nuclear weapons would have only led to more wars-not less! One square meter of Indian land is still Indian land. The threat of reducing their slave labor factories and their Shimmering simcities to dust is a compelling reason for them to take pause before provoking India or threatening her interests, politically, militarily or economically, because they stand to loose more should nuclear war take us back to the stone age.
As for the Chinese horde, educate yourself as to their military potential and their massive covert buildup they have undertaken just across our borders. It would foolish and irresponsible of us to not take notice and counter their advances.
The Chinese mindset is to bully those whom they can and placate those they can't. Every nation in South East Asia is already feeling this pressure from the Chinese, militarily, economically intruding on their doorsteps . We can't allow this expansion to continue any further into our neighborhood.
A few ICBMs in our island chains to the East and any so called "string of pears" will be cut with out "axe" of missiles targeting Chinese naval bases in the region with nuclear retaliation-forcing those countries who allowed chinese bases to think twice about whom they harbor and at what price.

[svinayak]

http://www.economist.com/realarticleid. ... d=16843717
India and China
A Himalayan rivalry
Asia’s two giants are still unsure what to make of each other. But as they grow, they are coming closer—for good and bad

This article is Exhibit A in what might be termed "British colonial phantom limb syndrome." Bill Emmott and his successors at the Economist are simply trying to relive the glory days of empire by egging on a fight between India, China, and Japan. His book, "Rivals," would be Exhibit B.

As pointed out by a previous commenter, China's natural cultural affinities lie toward its south and east, with countries such as Korea, Japan, and Vietnam. India actually has more in common with European countries, thus the term "Indo-European." What China and India share is a largely peaceful history of cultural interchange (witness Buddhism) and benign indifference abetted by the Himalayas.

That changed in the modern era when the greatest colonizers the world has ever known - the British - inserted themselves into the picture. The Younghusband invasion of Tibet via India in 1903 alerted the dying Qing dynasty to its vulnerability on the southern flank to British encroachment (as if the ceding of Hong Kong sixty years prior wasn't reminder enough). Colonial relics such as the McMahon line are further reminders of the malign British influence in that part of the world. The conflict between India and China in 1962 was simply a continuation of the turmoil initiated by British meddling.

Fast forward to the present day, where we have the British (this time thankfully from London, not Delhi) inviting more discord between India and China. What can I say? Once a troublemaker, always a troublemaker.

Hail Britannia!

[DavidD]

Good strawman argument. What I meant was ICBM will not be the magic cure that some people here think will solve all of India's problems. Too many people on here are way too comfortable with the prospect of nuclear warfare. Was China's rise today due to their ICBMs? This is like saying Dirty Harry was awesome because he had the .44 mag. And if I had one I will be awesome too. Sure it helped, but in the end it was Dirty Harry who is awesome.

P.S. After reading my last paragraph, I'm sure I'll be called a ChiCom Bot for comparing China with Dirty Harry and calling China Awesome. That's not what I meant. Just trying to prove the bolded part of my argument.

Just forget it, this board is 90+% Indian, and like boards that are 90+% American or Chinese, the posters range from patriotic to patriotism-is-my-life. For the former, you can engage in reasonable discussions from an Indian point of view, which I assume is what you want coming on here; for the latter, just ignore them when they go on a jingoistic rant. You're not gonna convince them otherwise no matter how much logic you use. We've all got them in our countries, there's no reason to expect the Indian ones to be any different!

[chanakyaa]

^^^^^(I apologize for part of the post is slight OT). It looks like the arguments between "TM" and others is based on two completely different point of views. Like comparing "apples" and "oranges". I agree with the BRFites who believe in "deterrence". I doubt anybody believes that ICBM or any other fancy toy will solve nation's problems. "Deterrence" is the only game in town, to keep PRC and blood sucking porkie pigs away. And, I hope that we achieve this minimal deterrence with least economic cost because every Rupee spent in meelitery toys, means one less Rupee spent less on building infrastructure, private enterprise, and communities.

History shows that, powerful nations built economy FIRST and to support that economy, they built meelitery to keep predators away. USSR is a perfect example of what happens what happens when meelitery comes first, followed by Oops!! NO economy. For example, we all know how NAVY came into existence. Merchants needed to secure their ships and the governments provided that security by building NAVY. English traders came to India first, followed by army to protect their interests. All deterrence does is buys us extra time to get our economy in shape, so countries like PRC do not dominate resources needed for much economic rebuilding. We are doing a good job of building the deterrence but doing very poorly on the economic front. My heart weeps when I see tribal communities take guns in their hands and call them "Maoists" to survive. It is absolute shame that WE THE PEOPLE have failed to spread the prosperity to each and every corner of the country.

[arindam]

An ardent lurker but seeing this thread could not stop myself from putting in my views.

I agree with chanakyaa that argument between "TM" and almost the rest of the board is somehow going nowhere. Some are pretty much hedged on to the idea of thousands and thousands of ICBM, in the same group some are also shouting about economic prosperity, something like "hold on a sec, where is the money to build this arrow?". Economic prosperity comes first no matter how good your military is, it is only there to supplement your rise. You do not employ a state of the art silent alarm for your hut! You do it for a mansion. Having said that in no way I am saying that we are living in a hut and we should not have high tech defence in place. This is just an example which can be tailored to the situation.

In the present world order, I think the more you control the market, the more you control the world view. This is not going to be the case forever. PSC's meteoric rise to stardom is a perfect example of that. Add the PR propaganda and the wool on the eye acts. Somehow the PRC is doing pretty effectively. Having said that, I believe this is not going to be the case 10 may be 20 years down the line.

The world might one day wake up to the fact of a superpower (both economic and military) India and only then the world view would change. As of now that sphere is completely dominated by PRC. The world might know that India will be one of the great power sometime in distant future but then the current policies won't reflect that, the current PRC nuisance is keeping the world busy and who would want one more.

Somewhere I was reading this heir and tortoise comparison between us and the PRC, looks like every hot run requires a bit of cooling effect or there is a possibility of burn out. PRC is moving in that direction, they are rising for the past decade and now it's time to cool down, take stock and move again. Add the current Af-Pak mess, TSP flood, recession hit EU and US, Taiwan conflict, presence of US force in Asia and the slowly but surely rising India. All this are actually deterring PRC to actually repeat a 62. It's too bloody a mess to be meddled into and they sure know it like hell.

Back to the original point, somehow I fell it is indeed true that ICBM is not a magic cure and neither a nuclear war threat. Economic rise comes with perk, i.e. proportionate increase in defence spending. The more you have the more you can spend. The more money you have the more you control stuff or move the pawns around.

It is like our social structure, I am a middle class and my next door neighbour is now a millionaire may be not a billionaire like my distant Unkil. Who would carry greater weight? This is the equation I believe in; leave it all to the rest.

Also I do wonder being the largest democracy in the world and having produced so many great leaders with a second largest standing army in the world, an envious air force and a pretty damn good navy why is that India has so much less voice in world forums? Why is it still not in those elite clubs, maybe we can say that we do not belong there etc etc logic, but I have just started to bang my head on the fact that why is it that India is not taken that seriously as often like the PRC? Is it because of the depth of the pocket or is it because of the depth of military and technology, or both.

May be someday I will have my answer and I am still waiting.

Economic prosperity and military might goes hand in hand. Neither can exist without the other... personally I would put economic prosperity above the militray might but then again they should complement each other...

Back to lurking....

[svinayak]

It is absolute shame that WE THE PEOPLE have failed to spread the prosperity to each and every corner of the country.

Are you ready to support the removal of "socialist" in the Indian constitution which has been there for more than 40 years. WE THE PEOPLE have put restriction to the Indian people to spread prosperity

[svinayak]

Back to the original point, somehow I fell it is indeed true that ICBM is not a magic cure and neither a nuclear war threat.

why bring this point which was never part
bogey discussion becomes the main point

[arindam]

Back to the original point, somehow I fell it is indeed true that ICBM is not a magic cure and neither a nuclear war threat.

why bring this point which was never part
bogey discussion becomes the main point

May be not be but this was discussed time and again.. (not sure how to quote all those, but the following are the snipets which were being discussed)

TM

Good strawman argument. What I meant was ICBM will not be the magic cure that some people here think will solve all of India's problems. Too many people on here are way too comfortable with the prospect of nuclear warfare.

Hari Seldon

BTW, sri montana is oh-so-right only. A few ICBM level missiles here and there won't change anything. Am sure there will be little to no reaction if and when Delhi decides to test, induct and deploy an ICBM triad. Only.
Another piece of evidence is the whole world agog at the possibility of an Iran or Pak getting its hands on one. POintless really, cause these things don't matter.

[/quote]

TM again..

Even US doesn't want to mess with China alone, they pull all Asian powers support. Why not India spend $30 billions on advanced missiles. Ignore US, Russia, MTCR, China, Porkistan etc., Just spend on advanced missiles, lets wait to see who dare to mess with us.

If you think India can bully the world into submission with a few ICBMs, you're sorely mistaken.

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ Acharya san, sanctimonious schmooze from videsi agent provocateurs typically ends up derailing and occasionally hijacking threads only. This icbm thingie is another case in the point.

Of course, ICBMs won't solve anything but they have their uses. Useless to deny that - esp with setting up a strawmen arguments that are so obvious in their intention to derail. Here's an example that started the derailment:

If you think India can bully the world into submission with a few ICBMs, you're sorely mistaken.

Someone saying ICBMs will prevent us getting bullied becomes magically == we'll bully the rest of the world into submission!
Yeah right. What follows is false trajectory only. Anyone surprised?

India needs and has every right to develop and deploy the very best in deterrence tech - both warhead wise and delivery system wise. Or do we wanna endup as the ones bringing a knife to a gunfight?

After cheena develops and deploys its 360 degree deterrence, and proliferates WMDs into our neighborhood, and encircles us with its string of pearls strategy, it also sends droneys to buzz around dropping BS about why India doesn't need to match upto clear and present danger long and deliberately brewing in its neighborhood. Ain't that chweet?

Meanwhile, the said bidesis have the chootzpah to go around like they're doing the forum a favor by their hallowed presence. See, the cheeni drones we have seen in the past seemed like trained saboteurs. Seldom admit they are chinese but would flare up at the mere hint of a criticism of cheena and would go on thread derailment campaigns time to time. OK, maybe this Montana dude and that DaviDude aren't in that category. Maybe they are. Time will tell.

One thing we forumites share, despite our diversity and differences, is a pro-India agenda. End of the day, we are on the same team, fighting on the same side. We can do without the attempts to dilute, divert or derail that basic premise of forum constitution.

OK, JMVVHOs only and other std disclaimers hold.
/Mods, kindly let me know if inappropriate, shall delete.

[arindam]

^^^ Acharya san, sanctimonious schmooze from videsi agent provocateurs typically ends up derailing and occasionally hijacking threads only. This icbm thingie is another case in the point.

SNIP...

Case in the point.. experience counts... point taken... no more derailment..

[chanakyaa]

It is absolute shame that WE THE PEOPLE have failed to spread the prosperity to each and every corner of the country.

Are you ready to support the removal of "socialist" in the Indian constitution which has been there for more than 40 years....

You bet..

[TonyMontana]

I don't want to post anymore OT, but I feel some points aimed at me need to be addressed. So last OT post on the matter.

It matters when people purport to speak with/without a perspective regarding certain stances that nations should take. Anyone can quote selective facts and push one POV. How is one to know whose agenda you are pushing?

And over half of those 'certain people' we've received from TSP and PRC on this board in the last few yrs of my time here were disruptive drones. Anyone here can vouch for it - from jyang to piyengar. Are you saying we shouldn't squelch out BS?

Anyway, your reluctance reveals more than your honesty would have.

This proves my point. The tone is inquisitorial, as if every non-indian person that post here has an agenda. If my posts are disruptive they will be dealt with by the Mods. So not posting up my CV is BS worthy of squelching? The most important part is that you think you can judge my point of view and perspective by simply knowing my genetic make up. That's the preconception I was talking about.

Just forget it, this board is 90+% Indian, and like boards that are 90+% American or Chinese, the posters range from patriotic to patriotism-is-my-life. For the former, you can engage in reasonable discussions from an Indian point of view, which I assume is what you want coming on here; for the latter, just ignore them when they go on a jingoistic rant. You're not gonna convince them otherwise no matter how much logic you use. We've all got them in our countries, there's no reason to expect the Indian ones to be any different!

You nailed it on the head. I'm a firm believer of the fact that people are all the same. People behave in the same way in all the military forums, be they Chinese, American or anyone else. We have more in common than we are different.

What follows is false trajectory only. Anyone surprised?

I agree it was OT. But that was the way the conversation went. I don't have a 12 point check list of how to derail the thread. It's your own paranoia.

And to make this post slightly not OT. I would like to restate some of my opinions for clearity.

1) I don't believe having the abilities to exterminate the Chinese civilisation will stop ANY of the Chinese military developments mentioned in this ENTIRE thread. The Chinese are rational, they believe with good reason that the Indians are rational too. The level of provocation from the Chinese are low enough that the Chinese believes that India will not exterminate them for it. Therefore they will continue.

2)China does not have designs on invading and taking over India, or any siginificant amount of Indian land. It's simply not profitable for them to do so. Future speculations are anyones guess, but I don't see it in the near future. The boarder disputes are used as political bargaining chips, not signs of imminent military build up as a precursor to invasion.

3)By focusing on the Indian economy, and further intanglement with the Chinese market. India could create a situation where Chinese confrontation with India is no longer profitable. Thus, winning a war without fighting.

I don't want to derail this thread any longer and become "that guy". Please move to relevent thread if needed.

[TonyMontana]

You first state rather categorically "China does not have designs on invading and taking over India, or any siginificant amount of Indian land" but then later state "future speculations are anyone's guess".

Different time frames. By future I mean 30 years +. Nonone can predict that long.

And by your own admission, China does have intentions of taking over what China thinks as "significant amount of Indian land" but has intention of taking over some amount of Indian land nevertheless?

Incorrect. To invade a country is a BIG BIG deal. You have to put yourself in the Chinese shoes and assume for a second that they are not all blood thisty imperialists. What other Indian land does China want? Why? For what price? And is it worth it? I don't see it adding up for the Chinese. And so does the Chinese.

So what did China do to an independent country Tibet (which had served as a buffer state between India and China for centuries) and then later in 1962?

That's in the 50's and 60's. In the modern world that's a life time away. You don't judge the 50's Chinese government actions with Qing policies. It's counter productive to view Today's China through their actions in the 50's and 60's.

[TonyMontana]

Then unless you are a soothsayer, on what basis did you confidently come to a conclusion that ""China does not have designs on invading and taking over India, or any siginificant amount of Indian land"?

I don't have to prove a negative hypothesis. The hypothesis is the China will invade India in the short to medium term. I don't see any prove of that. Ergo.

Incorrect. Not when you are talking of "Communist China".

Sure. Total agreed. But Communist China died in 1990.

Arunachal Pradesh.

I'm sure China "wants" Siberia too. Doesn't mean the 38th Mechanised is gonna march North anytime soon.

Spokesperson of the Chinese?

My own humble opinions only.

[Craig Alpert]

India Considering Deploying Missiles in North-East

The government is considering the deployment of the 2,000 km range Agni-II and 350 km range Prithvi III surface to surface ballistic missiles close to the Chinese border, Defence Ministry sources told PTI here today.

The sources said that additional land was being procured by the Army in North-West Bengal and adjoining states for deployment of these missiles.

Better late than never!

[Thomas Kolarek]

India Considering Deploying Missiles in North-East

The government is considering the deployment of the 2,000 km range Agni-II and 350 km range Prithvi III surface to surface ballistic missiles close to the Chinese border, Defence Ministry sources told PTI here today.

The sources said that additional land was being procured by the Army in North-West Bengal and adjoining states for deployment of these missiles.

Better late than never!

Thats good news. We should put Agni V to test ASAP and place them on NE border by 2012.

[uddu]

Instead of Prithvi and Agni-II, the best choice seems Shaurya, Brahmos and Agni-III. Placing older system to deter/counter China will not be a wise choice.

[Juggi G]

India's New Military Plans to Tackle China

[Craig Alpert]

China denies visa to top general in J&K

NEW DELHI: India has cancelled defence exchanges with China after Beijing refused to allow the visit of the Indian army's General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Northern Area Command, because he was responsible for Jammu & Kashmir, a state that China maintained was disputed.

In keeping with a practice for the past few years, the Indian defence establishment in June had began preparations for a regular high-level exchange visit to China this August by one of the top commanders of the Indian army — the northern area commander, Lt-Gen B S Jaswal.

However, Delhi was stunned when Beijing responded to his nomination by saying that it was unwilling to "welcome" Gen Jaswal because he "controlled" a disputed area, Jammu and Kashmir.

An angry New Delhi shot off a strongly worded demarche to Beijing, protesting its decision. Soon thereafter, India refused permission to two Chinese defence officials to come to India for a course at the National Defence College. A subsequent visit by Indian military officials to China was also cancelled by India.

To ensure that there was no ambiguity about the reason for its annoyance, New Delhi has since also bluntly told Beijing that the unexpected decision to block Lt-Gen Jaswal's visit to China was the reason behind India's decisions.

New Delhi found China's behaviour particularly provocative because in August 2009, Lt-Gen V K Singh, currently the Army chief and then the GOC-in-C Eastern Command, had visited China for a similar high-level exchange. If territorial sensitivity was the issue with China, then Singh's visit should have been even more problematic because, as head of the Eastern Command, he had jurisdiction over Arunachal Pradesh, a state that is claimed by China.

The Chinese have been needling India on Kashmir for a while. Beijing refuses to paste visas on the passports of residents of J&K, and staples them instead, despite repeated protests from India. As the Indian government refuses to recognize stapled visas as valid travel documents, the upshot is that the people of J&K can't visit China.

Beijing, in fact, also denies visas altogether to the residents of Arunachal, claiming them to be Chinese citizens. Still, it did not have any hesitation in "welcoming" Gen J J Singh as the head of the Eastern Command in May 2007. This would make it appear that Beijing was going a step further to needle New Delhi on Kashmir. New Delhi has, however, has not allowed this issue to spill over elsewhere in the bilateral ties.

China's aggressive approach on J&K is, of course, directly connected to its close relationship with Pakistan. China- Pakistan ties is viewed to be aimed at keeping India boxed in, and this manifests itself in many different ways. In 2008, China started construction activities in PoK, which India regarded as provocative. In 2010, China announced that it would supply two nuclear reactors to Pakistan.

Read more: China denies visa to top general in J&K - India - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z0xlMlqBxB

[Thomas Kolarek]

The news really makes Blood Boil..India should disengage with Chinese Telecom communications as a protest.

China denies visa to top general in J&K

NEW DELHI: India has cancelled defence exchanges with China after Beijing refused to allow the visit of the Indian army's General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Northern Area Command, because he was responsible for Jammu & Kashmir, a state that China maintained was disputed.

In keeping with a practice for the past few years, the Indian defence establishment in June had began preparations for a regular high-level exchange visit to China this August by one of the top commanders of the Indian army — the northern area commander, Lt-Gen B S Jaswal.

However, Delhi was stunned when Beijing responded to his nomination by saying that it was unwilling to "welcome" Gen Jaswal because he "controlled" a disputed area, Jammu and Kashmir.

An angry New Delhi shot off a strongly worded demarche to Beijing, protesting its decision. Soon thereafter, India refused permission to two Chinese defence officials to come to India for a course at the National Defence College. A subsequent visit by Indian military officials to China was also cancelled by India.

To ensure that there was no ambiguity about the reason for its annoyance, New Delhi has since also bluntly told Beijing that the unexpected decision to block Lt-Gen Jaswal's visit to China was the reason behind India's decisions.

New Delhi found China's behaviour particularly provocative because in August 2009, Lt-Gen V K Singh, currently the Army chief and then the GOC-in-C Eastern Command, had visited China for a similar high-level exchange. If territorial sensitivity was the issue with China, then Singh's visit should have been even more problematic because, as head of the Eastern Command, he had jurisdiction over Arunachal Pradesh, a state that is claimed by China.

The Chinese have been needling India on Kashmir for a while. Beijing refuses to paste visas on the passports of residents of J&K, and staples them instead, despite repeated protests from India. As the Indian government refuses to recognize stapled visas as valid travel documents, the upshot is that the people of J&K can't visit China.

Beijing, in fact, also denies visas altogether to the residents of Arunachal, claiming them to be Chinese citizens. Still, it did not have any hesitation in "welcoming" Gen J J Singh as the head of the Eastern Command in May 2007. This would make it appear that Beijing was going a step further to needle New Delhi on Kashmir. New Delhi has, however, has not allowed this issue to spill over elsewhere in the bilateral ties.

China's aggressive approach on J&K is, of course, directly connected to its close relationship with Pakistan. China- Pakistan ties is viewed to be aimed at keeping India boxed in, and this manifests itself in many different ways. In 2008, China started construction activities in PoK, which India regarded as provocative. In 2010, China announced that it would supply two nuclear reactors to Pakistan.

Read more: China denies visa to top general in J&K - India - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z0xlMlqBxB

[TonyMontana]

An angry New Delhi shot off a strongly worded demarche to Beijing, protesting its decision. Soon thereafter, India refused permission to two Chinese defence officials to come to India for a course at the National Defence College. A subsequent visit by Indian military officials to China was also cancelled by India.

To ensure that there was no ambiguity about the reason for its annoyance, New Delhi has since also bluntly told Beijing that the unexpected decision to block Lt-Gen Jaswal's visit to China was the reason behind India's decisions.

India has already responded. The whole point of these actions is to keep the issue "disputed". The bigger the "scene" India makes, the more you play into Chinese hands. If North Korea refuses Jimmy Carter a visa because they claims Georgia. What do you think the US will do?

[uddu]

Rather than allow the Chinese to Insult Indians in this manner, the GOI can start issuing stapled visas to Uighur (Comparing Islamic Uighurs with the Islamic Kashmiris if the Chinese want it in that manner will be better). Stop any PLA officer from visiting India if they are posted in Uighuristan. Keep Tibet off from the equation. Tibet is an Independent nation and hence no compromise about that. Start having diplomatic links with Taiwan and strong military relationship with the Taiwanese (For diplomatic sake). Have strong strategic partnership with the Vietnamese. Provide Vietnam military hardware including the INSAS, Tejas, Akash, Brahmos, Shivaliks and things upto Agni-1 series of missiles. This is the only way we can say that we have correctly responded to the Chicoms.